DHT inhibition question

[jaydee]

What to you guys make of this. A guy on a hairloss forum wrote about how he has been on finasteride somtimes in larger doses, then moved on to dutasteride. He has most of the sexual side effects as you would expect. These include GYNO, lack of libido, decreased semen volume and fat gain.

He decided to get a blood test done for estrodol. He got his blood tests back and he was EXTREMELY LOW. He did not give reference ranges or the actual result.

How could this man have gyno, yet have low estrodol? Is it because his total E might be elevated? Or somtihing to do with his bioavailable E and if so, do bioavailable E and Estrodol have any similarities, like do they usually reflect each others results, the same way bioavailbe T and free T usually do?

Is it possible for some finasteride sufferers to have some kind of hidden estrogen dominence? Is that even possible?

 

[JanSz]

What to you guys make of this. A guy on a hairloss forum wrote about how he has been on finasteride somtimes in larger doses, then moved on to dutasteride. He has most of the sexual side effects as you would expect. These include GYNO, lack of libido, decreased semen volume and fat gain.

He decided to get a blood test done for estrodol. He got his blood tests back and he was EXTREMELY LOW. He did not give reference ranges or the actual result.

How could this man have gyno, yet have low estrodol? Is it because his total E might be elevated? Or somtihing to do with his bioavailable E and if so, do bioavailable E and Estrodol have any similarities, like do they usually reflect each others results, the same way bioavailbe T and free T usually do?

Is it possible for some finasteride sufferers to have some kind of hidden estrogen dominence? Is that even possible?

Indeed they are very interesting questions.
We definitely could use good explanation from good doctor.
Many of those are probably barely just guessed even by doctors who are on the edge.

Wonder if we are testing the right things.
If we do, who is going to be able to read test properly.

On DHT there is "regular" that we test and there is Free, possibly Free is more important, similarly as FreeT is.
There is four different Estradiol tests, we test for "serum", how about the (Estradiol Free).
And so on.
Then the are urine tests for hydroextrones,
As I am writting this, I note
the RheinLabs changed their web site,
Hormone Profiling
Here we worry about
Estrone (E1)
2-Hydroxyestrone
16a-Hydroxyestrone
4-Hydroxyestrone
=================
Quest Diagnostics have this estrogen and DHT tests:
Quest Diagnostics: Interpretive Guide - Endocrinology
• Dihydrotestosterone (DHT)
• Dihydrotestosterone, Free

• Estradiol, 24-Hour Urine
• Estradiol, Bioavailable
• Estradiol, Free
• Estradiol, Serum

• Estrogen, Total, 24-Hour Urine
• Estrogen, Total, Serum

• Estrogens, Fractionated, Serum
• Estrogens, Total & Fractionated, 24-Hour Urine

• Estrone, Serum
• Estrone Sulfate
--------------
Their ranges and little discussion is provided here:
http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/intguide/EndoMetab/EndoManual_3rdEd_2004.pdf
First find a page number from the bookmark, then go to page of interest.

 

[jaydee]

From what the guy was saying, he only had a normal serum estrodiol test. I will mention to him to get an ultrasensitive assay and I will post his results, if he gets it done. Boy if his ultrasensitive assay came back high, it would be a very good example of how deceiving serum estradiol tests can be and how they could throw off your average physician.

I realize this guy needs a full work up, but when he mentioned his gyno and fat/weight gain, with normal estradiol, it raised a few questions straight away. Hopefully he will go and get a proper work up.

I forgot to add also that he has used these drugs for 10 years and by the sound of it, has had the sides for the majority of the time, as you would expect.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Jaydee,
Like dr john said anything is possbile and Dr john probably already thought of this already but here it goes. Some how may be the Finasteride is makes the body more estrogen senstive over time by some how changing the the hormone receptors to where possible a person who has been on finasteride for some time has become estrogen senstive and androgen resistant and would need more free testosterone to over come this sensitivity. Meaning if person functions normally at say 25 estrodial then a person on finasteride may need to be 15-20 to feel the same. Again there is no scientific eveidence about this. When cell membrane fluidity is off this can also change the receptors as well. For example if the cells DHA/EPA levels are higher then the AA this would make person much more hormone senisitive because there permeablity will be increased greatly to nutrients as well as hormones binding. NOw majority of people are elevated AA?EPA and giving these people fish oils would allow more membrane fluidity, but in some cases too much fish oil can over load the cell membrane and may make a person more receptive to all hormones. This is way Fish oils are so big in depression because the signals are not traveling like they shoould be through the membrane. This is an interesting topic of further debate thats for sure. Dealing with hormones in the blood is one thing dealing with them on cellular level is a new frontier.. in the future that would be an interesting part of hormone therapy to see actually how the hormones are refelected at the cell level based upon a test dealing with AA/EPA ratio and to see just how imbalanced alot of people really are..

 

[lucky1313]

I'd also be interested in whether his estrogen levels are high due to fin and dut, I currently take both meds...fin for 10years and dut for 2years, I seem to have very stubourn bf around my tummy / back and ass, I also ran a very low var cycle recently and suffered gyno which is very odd considering Var doesn't aromatise...I have my suspicions I have elevated estrogen levels from the fin and dut, I have recently started 12mg aromisan ED and feel fantastic, I also seem to be losing some of the stouborn fat I mentioned above.