Dr. John - latest research on HCG protocol?
- 02-21-2007, 01:59 PM
Dr. John - latest research on HCG protocol?
Dr. John - I'm a 51 year old male, 6.1% body fat, 5' 10" 139.
I just started Cenegenics program 4 days ago.
My labs from Quest were:
IGF BINDING PROTEIN-3 5.3
TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 543
TESTOSTERONE, FREE 88.0
T-3, FREE 322
T4, FREE 1.76
CORTISOL, TOTAL 23.1 (recent divorce)
ESTRADIOL, ULTRA-SENSITIVE 22
HOMOCYSTEINE, CARDIO 6.3
CHOLESTEROL, SERUM 136
other labs all great.
I started taking four days ago:
.9 IU of HGH per day
Thyroid Armour 1/2 grain per day for 2 weeks, then 1 grain.
Testosterone 80mg weekly
Arimidex .5mg same day as testosterone
HCG 1000 IU same day as testosterone.
Have been taking 1mg proscar for 6 years.
I read with interest your posts and documents on HCG. So, I'm a bit concerned with the 1000 IU all on the same day.
You stated that lots of docs can't keep up with the latest research. Can you link to some recent research on this?
Also, curious if Arimidex should be broken up and taken on other days of the week. Any research links on this?
Four days after starting, I feel like a million bucks. Never had energy, all my life. Feel like I can conquer the world - and have put on about 4 pounds. I bench 250-275 on machines. I've always worked out with weights, and have weighed 20 pounds more with same body fat previously, never had any love handles).
I'm concerned whether the Cenegenics folks are at the top of their game or not.
If I'm going to be putting meds in my body long term, I want to be pro actively involved, and have research to backup what I'm doing. I want to know they "why's" - not just a dosage.
Any comments on the program they've set up for me?
- 02-21-2007, 02:13 PM
Cholesterol is why too low indication of adrenal problems as well as serotonin production
HCG 1000 ius is rediculous at one time desenitises your LH levels
Why are they givng you armidex? your estrogen looks fine. Are they just giving it to you as a precautionary measures with out proper testing while on procotol for 4 weeks?
What is your DHEA-s, shbg levels they are essential.
If cortisol is high in the blood what is it doing at the tissue levels (24 hour urinary be necessary here) It could be suppressing dhea and lowering your IGF-1 levels and also free testosterone.
Hope this helps
- 02-21-2007, 02:48 PM
hardasnails1973 - here are the other tests:
DHEA SULFATE 394
shbg - was not part of Cenegenics testing profile
Cenegenics started me on arimidex immediately. My understanding is to prevent the testosterone I'm injecting from being aromatized.
My next blood work is 7 weeks after starting my drug protocol.
Could you elaborate on the 'Cholesterol is why too low indication of adrenal problems'. I don't understand you.
02-21-2007, 02:59 PM
02-21-2007, 03:12 PM
I don't know that it is to be aromatized.
When I asked the doctor whether the testosterone could be aromitized (from my reading in books such as 'Life Extension Revolution' where adding testosterone could end up with patient worse than where he started), he said he was prescribing the arimidex.
02-21-2007, 03:15 PM
02-21-2007, 03:25 PM
Please post any research that concludes LH desensitization through 1000 IUs of HCG twice a week.
Thanks in advice.
02-21-2007, 03:34 PM
Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression -- Coviello et al. 90 (5): 2595 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism
From my own expereince the higher one free T level is up to optimal range the more controled the estrogen will be
Chorionic Gonadotrophin Stimulation Test (males < 75 years old)*
Chorionic Gonadotrophin is presently available through most pharmacies
or distributors as Profasi, Pregnyl or generic Chorionic Gonadotrophin
10,000 units per 10 cc vial. Various stimulation tests have been
described, from high dose, short course testing to more normal
physiologic doses over a longer time period. I have found that a typical
treatment course for three weeks is best for determining those
individuals who will respond well to this type of treatment. It is
administered by injection 500 units (0.5 cc) SQ, Monday through Friday
for three weeks. Teach patient to self administer with 50 Unit Insulin
Syringes with 30 gauge needles in anterior thigh, seated with both hands
free to perform the injection. Measure: Testosterone, total and free,
plus E2 before starting CG and on the third Saturday AM after 3 weeks of
stimulation (salivary testing may be more accurate for adjusting doses).
Studies have shown that SQ is equal in efficacy to IM administration.
1. <20% rise suggests poor testicular reserve of leydig cell function
(primary hypo-gonadism or eu-gonadotrophic hypo-gonadism indicating
combined central and peripheral factors).
2. 20-50% increase indicates adequate reserve but slightly depressed
response, mostly central inhibition but possibly decreased testicular
response as well.
3. > 50% increase suggests primarily centrally mediated depression of
Options for treatment vary both with the response to CG and patient
1. If there is an inadequate response (< 20%), then replacement with
testosterone will be indicated.
2. The area in between 20-50% will usually require CG boosting for a
period of time, plus natural boosting or "partial" replacement options.
I believe that full replacement with exogenous testosterone is always
the last option in borderline cases since improvement over time may
frequently occur as leydig cell regeneration may actually happen. Much
of this is age dependent. Up to age 60, boosting is almost always
successful. 60-75 is variable, but will usually be clear by the results
of the stimulation test. Also, disease related depression of
testosterone output might be reversible with adequate treatment of the
underlying process (depression, AMI, obesity, alcohol, deficiency, etc.)
This positive effect will not occur if suppressive therapy is instituted
in the form of full replacement.
3. If there is an adequate response, >50% rise in testosterone, there
is very good leydig cell reserve. Natural boosting or CG therapy will
probably be successful in restoring full testosterone output without
replacement, a better option over the long term and a more natural
restoration of biologic fluctuations for optimal response.
4. Chorionic Gonadotrophin can be self-administered and adjusted
according to response. In younger, high output responders (T >
1100ng/dl), CG can be given every third or fourth day at bedtime or in
the AM. This also minimizes estrogen conversion. In lower level
responders(600-800ng/dl), or those with a higher E2 output associated
with full dose CG, 300-500 units can be given Mon-Wed-Fri. At times,
sluggish responders may require a higher dose to achieve full
Testosterone response. In these cases, the diluent is lowered to 7.5cc
or even to 5 cc, which increases the CG concentration 1 Ĺ - 2 X. This
can be administered in variable doses 0.3 - 0.5cc given every 3rd day.
Check salivary levels on the day of the next injection, but before the
next injection to determine effectiveness and to adjust the dose
accordingly. Keep in mind that later as leydig cell restoration occurs,
a reduction in dose or frequency of administration may be later needed.
5. Monitor both Testosterone and E2 levels to assess response to
treatment after 2 - 3 weeks after change in dose of CG as well as
periodic intervals during chronic administration. Sublingual testing is
very easy and cost effective. It will also better reflect the true free
levels of both estrogens and testosterone. (Pharmasan Labs 888-342-***2
is very good)
6. Adjustment of dosage is a result of symptomatic response and hormone
level boosting. It is based on clinical judgement as much as actual
hormone levels. Remember that "Normal" ranges are for populations, not
7. Except for reports of antibodies developing against CG (I have not
seen this), there are no adverse effects of chronic CG administration.
An additional benefit is the boosting of Growth Hormone output which has
also been reported, either as a direct effect of CG or as an effect of
increased levels of testosterone.
*Protocol adapted from "The Testosterone Syndrome" by Eugene Shippen, M.
D. (M Evans and Co, NY 1998).
Posted on ASI with permission of Eugene Shippen, M. D.
02-21-2007, 03:50 PM
Itís known that both testosterone therapy and HCG therapy suppress LH levels. It does not conclude LH insensitivity from long-term use.
02-21-2007, 05:55 PM
colkurtz_spf - I read your 'cenegenics experience' post. Very curious what kind of effects you noticed and how soon.
I've put on 4.5 lb in 4 days (just got back from gym). Muscles swelling up, but I am regaining previous body size. A kind of euphoria kicked in after 3 days.
As your IGF was 300 to begin with, I have to wonder if there is any consistency to Cenegenic's advice as my Cenegenics doc. quoted a desired range of 205-255 for IGF - and the book I've been reading 'Life Extension Revolution' by the well regarded LEF.org folks, quotes a desirable range of 200-300.
At least, by my Doc and that book, you were already at a very nice IGF level.
He thought that Quest has been playing with the ranges at the request of the insurance companies - which concerns me about the validity of the results. One of my Quest labs showed INSULIN 61 - which my doc flagged as an error with my glucose of 75. Unsure how much confidence I have yet for lab results.
Also, how has their responsiveness been after your initial office visit. Have they met your expectations?
02-21-2007, 06:20 PM
I'm very pleased with my doctor and the treatment he has prescribed. I haven't felt this good in at least 20 years. I've lost fat and gained muscle. I feel more focused and clear-minded. My sex drive is off the hook. My doctor is always available to answer questions. I consult with him on all my supplementation. I feel my treatment is highly personalized. I didn't get that form the last doctor.
02-22-2007, 09:47 AM
I like that you said the doc is available, and is involved in the full spectrum of your treatment....
02-22-2007, 08:02 PM
hardasnails1973 - as I did not get tested for SHBG with my Cenegenics testing, what are your thoughts on this test and how I could use it.
My next tests are 6 weeks away, and I'd want to add anything that is missing. I wouldn't have a baseline unless Quest kept some blood from my first draw.
02-22-2007, 09:04 PM
02-24-2007, 03:50 PM
I understand that pancreatic secretagogues can burn out receptors in the pancreas. What you say makes sense, but if long-term use burns out LH receptors wouldn't that be a problem for those who combine it with testosterone as well, or does the testosterone counteract that somehow?
02-24-2007, 03:53 PM
Dr. John - could you point me towards some reading regarding the how to properly use SHGB tests. I was completely in the dark on that and am concerned that Cenegenics does not have this as part of their standard tests.
Somewhat concerned at the moment - I've only got this body, and no spare.
Same for HCG protocols & Arimidex. Any additional research/papers, etc. I could read?
I've read the documents on your site, and what you say makes sense to me.
Is there no currently accepted protocol from A4M or other anti-aging organizations about this? I suppose I naively assumed that as Cenegenics was the largest purchaser of HGH, that they would be at the top of their game.
There is so much variation in doctor's advise. I have a good friend, an M.D. certified in anti-aging, bariatric medicine, clinical nutrition. I told him years ago I was dead tired, no energy. He never tested free testosterone. Never tested thyroid at all. Tested HGH, which showed a much lower level than Quest, but didn't do anything about it.
Very frustrated. Hard to know (as a non-doctor who reads a bit), what to believe, who to trust?
- Live forever, or die trying!!
02-24-2007, 04:10 PM
02-24-2007, 06:20 PM
Dr. John - my doctor has been thru their program - but I pay Cenegenics, not him.
I presumed there would be a set of procedures to follow, and that he would be following precise guidelines. My understanding from the doctor was that it would be exactly the same program as if I went to Las Vegas.
colkurtz_spf - they are a business - designed to make money. My brother-in-law is an anesthesiologist - and his comment was - "they love money" when I had him look thru their program.
Having some 'names' on the board doesn't means these folks are hands-on and directly involved, or necessarily imply a better product.
At the moment, I don't know the answers. I'm just learning the questions.
I do know that some doctors get overworked, and the enthusiasm for 'doing good' that they may have had when they entered med school has been killed of by greedy insurance companies and patients who will go to another doctor if they are not prescribed an antibiotic that the doctor knows will do no good.
I've had doctor friends tell me they will prescribe a drug that is unnecessary - as it costs them less than the test to see if they need the drug. And, they hate this. They would actually like to practice good medicine.
I have no idea the last time Cenegenics changed their protocols. They could be cutting edge, or they could be based on what worked 3-5- years ago. Why change if things seem to be working and you are making money?
I'm just trying to gather information. I'm certainly not implying that you are naive. Having been involved in this longer than I have, I'm sure you probably know more about it than I do.
I've just seen a lot, and I'm not willing to blindly accept anything anymore.
02-24-2007, 09:00 PM
I can tell you that my docotor treats me as an individual. He doesn't prescribe cookie-cutter treatments. His goal is to have me on minimal medication - only what I need. He has done the same for my wife. Other clinics wanted her on HGH and other hormones immediately. My doctor thought DHEA would move her IGF level into an acceptable range and control cortisol. It worked. He didn't prescibe her anything else - just supplemtation and diet. She is 48, but still mensturates. He didn't see the need for more.
It doesn't matter if a board member like Dr. Sears is hands on. The important fact is that he is a patient. That impressed me most. Nevertheless, it's no indication you have the right doctor. If you feel unsure of his treatment you should go elsewhere. Second guessing him isn't going to do you any good.
Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 02-24-2007 at 10:58 PM.
02-25-2007, 12:51 PM
The posted study doesn't convince me. To me it says that 500IUs is more than a healthy young man needs to achieve baseline levels of testosterone. I don't see any conclusive evidence of LH receptor damage through the study.
I admit that I'm not a doctor and have no knowledge of this subject whatsoever. Maybe one of "the bros" would be willing shed some light on this for me.
Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 02-25-2007 at 08:32 PM.
02-25-2007, 11:22 PM
02-26-2007, 12:49 AM
Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 02-26-2007 at 01:18 AM.
02-26-2007, 12:51 AM
02-26-2007, 02:20 AM
And if said amount of T aromitizes, how will one know how much arimidex to take unless follow up BW is done? They seem like they are basically guessing, which doesn't sound like smart medicinal practice to me.
02-26-2007, 06:25 PM
02-26-2007, 06:35 PM
It's my understanding that Dr. Sears is also a patient.
02-26-2007, 08:56 PM
Dr. John - I understand that you don't have the time to research papers for me.
But, when you come across papers & research that is interesting, it would be very handy to have a single 'sticky' thread for research papers.
My goal is to attain as complete of an understanding of how all the hormones work as I can.
When I am as 'up to speed' as possible (hopefully before any damage can be done if my current program is completely out of whack), I want to be able to intelligently discuss my program with my doctor - and if the facts don't seem to line up, find a program where they will.
A few weeks ago, if I asked about what is going to stop the conversion of the testosterone shots to estrogen, I would cease my inquiry when answered with 'arimidex'. That is changing.
Hopefully, with a bit of time and work, I can advance to where I at least know the most important questions (as this field is rapidly changing, the answers may be changing also, and may be a moving target).
EDIT BY DR CRISLER: IF CENEGENICS WANTS TO ADVERTISE HERE, THEY NEED TO PAY FOR IT.
It would be really interesting for you query them, as a doctor, and see how they respond (they claim ?20%? of their patients are doctors - so they should be comfortable taking it up a notch), and relate the conversation back to this forum.
I'd be very, very interested in hearing about that conversation.
Live forever, or die trying! (yeah, kind of catchy - came up with that a few years ago when talking with my anti-aging doctor friend)
Last edited by Dr. John; 02-26-2007 at 09:16 PM.
02-26-2007, 09:48 PM
02-26-2007, 11:19 PM
Dr. John - didn't mean to make it sound like an 'ad' for Cenegenics.
I'm glad you are considering an 'important studies' section.
Without the research, without the knowledge, I can't intelligently evaluate Ceneginic's advise, or your advice.
In the short time I've been viewing this forum, I've had many flags raised about Cenegenic's treatment protocols - and the lack of tests such as SHBG in their testing protocols.
But, I need more information. I'm getting the abridged cliff notes from Cenegenics (take arimidex, and your testosterone won't be converted to estrogen)- and I'm hungering for more in depth reading. Not just, "here is what to do", but detailed information about "why" - and what research or observations the "why" is based on.
If you provide better more 'state-of-the-art' treatment, and can document that in ways a non-medical person can understand, then there is really only one choice to be made.
But, I've got to really understand it all first. Only then can I make an informed decision.
So, the more information that is posted here, in an 'important studies' section, the better.
05-24-2008, 12:28 PM
Hello, I am new to this site and was intrested in contacting Dr. John to learn more about his program? Search some threads but missed the info - can you please advise?
05-24-2008, 05:00 PM
05-27-2008, 01:40 AM
***"The posted study doesn't convince me. To me it says that 500IUs is more than a healthy young man needs to achieve baseline levels of testosterone. I don't see any conclusive evidence of LH receptor damage through the study."***
That fact alone should show a prudent person a GREAT DEAL about the long term dangers of taking tons more HCG than that. You don't need much more than that to gather your common sense.
The HPTA is controlled by other hormones as well. Testosterone feels great at 400mg per week instead of the 100mg-200mg that can easily put your levels "above baseline"... but does that mean we need a study to prove that we shouldn't just go ahead and take 400 per week LONG-TERM??? LOL
You don't need a study to realize that at that level eventually the body is going to let you know that the party is over.
These are POWERFUL Hormones. Thousands of men maintain testicular size and function on Only 250iu of HCG EOD or less. Why would you think that massive doses are TRULY a good idea?
05-27-2008, 02:32 AM
05-27-2008, 12:32 PM
One does not go on HCG monotherapy for testicular size alone. The goal is to achieve healthy testosterone levels. You can't really say what constitutes a "massive" dose without conclusive evidence through extended research. It seems to me the only real world studies exist from doctor's who have been administering this therapy. My doctor has patients who have been on HCG for ten years. Eventually they need to supplement with testosterone, but these guys are approaching their seventies. I would imagine that testicular function diminishes with age.
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