- 02-20-2007, 07:46 PM
can anyone recommend a med for thinning hair? my hair is getting pretty thin on top and with my trt i understand it might get thinner?
is there a specific level that i need look for in my labs concerning this?
my son at 25 very receeded....possibly he could benefit from something.
- 02-21-2007, 08:52 AM
If you are over 85
If you blood is low on DHT, watch out,
my own theory,
people complaining about finasteride must be or have been in that (low DHT) category.
My DHT without Avodart DHT=226
with daily Avodart DHT=29
I am currently experimenting with every other day dose.
If you have low blood DHT and thinning hair, stay with topicals (and pray that they work).
- 02-21-2007, 09:16 AM
thanks for the reply...
my present dht is 74....i'll run this by dr john next time i see him
02-21-2007, 09:23 AM
It could be many other reasons for him personally....inflammation, stress, allergic reaction, MPB, but do you know which one...?
Then, rather than having him do some research ,you recommend the strongest and most side effect producing medication that is available.....Did you mention the side effects...? What the drug was designed to do? ask how old he was? where he was on the NW scale? How long he had been thinning...? What NW his father/mother, grandparents were...? Explain that there are many other "treatments" and alternatives before taking dutasteride? That if he was in fact later inflicted with BPH, due to the use of Advodart, he is much more likely to have a lethal case...? What about DHT...? Isnt (dht) it ANY use to anyone, and blocking it w/advodart will have no effect...psychologically/sexually...?
I could go on and on.....And your theory about propecia blood levels is invalid also....Ther havent been any studies (that I am aware of) that site pre-finasteride DHt levels....The harmful effect realized by some is that the dht levels drop to such levels, and many other systematic effects that are not universal to each user......You are givin bad advice that you cant back up, and potentially leading another into harms way......
02-21-2007, 10:20 AM
It is what I am doing for the last 10 years.
I started on Rogaine then on Proscar when I was able to get a script.
Then changed to Avodart when it became available.
Every time I discontinue Avodart my DHT goes up.
02-21-2007, 11:33 AM
thanks for the replys, argument, looking out for me. looks like i'll have to continue to research this area more and consult with dr john
02-21-2007, 01:50 PM
02-21-2007, 03:10 PM
I am also heading toward Dr John.
Yes it is going to be tough ride.
I have a large prostate and cannot afford much experimentation.
This is main issue that holds me back from making my trek to
The Man Cave.
I am not sure if I can comply with ban on Avodart without having really good back up, good reason why I would stop using Avodart and what I would do instead.
Before I started on Testosterone I went thru 6 prostate biopsies just to make sure, it was rather big sacrifice, I do not treat this topic lightly, but I need good information.
Sometime in the last few weeks Dr Marianco started talking about half life and lower dose, when I complained that my daily take of Avodart was lowering my DHT too much.
Few days ago I got practically the same answer from a doctor at LEF, she told me to try Avodart every other day.
I see no outright ban on Avodart among other places.
The only place that I seen
Bodybuilding.com - Reform Mag - The Facts And Myths About: DHT!
is easy to think that they deal with young population that do not really have prostate issues as of yet, so they can afford large margin or error.
Only last month LEF says that high DHT is not desirable for prostate and hair and rather than using Proscar or Propecia (they do not quote Avodart) they advice use of Saw Palmeto.
While I buy the theory on unhealthy estrodial ratio (2/16) I am afraid to let go of theory that high DHT over range (over 85) is unhealthy. Even here is controversy, DIM what kind, just DIM or DIM+I3C or maybe DIM+I3C+xxx. How much DIM, a lot or a little bit.
I am afraid that ban on Avodart (or finasteride) is so cutting edge that he (Dr John) may be alone or in very small group with his theory.
I have an easier time to believe that among finasteride users those with initial low DHT got bad side effects, they are small group (2%users) but very vocal.
I am posting often on my Avodart taking, hoping that it provokes Dr John's comment that is complete rather than (less useful) one liner.
02-21-2007, 10:47 PM
- 5'10" 201 lbs.
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
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what do you guys advise about taking duta,or finisteride while on test e??...and when you take either of those products,what do you take with it to prevent gyno???serm?ai,and wich one.....thanks
The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety.-Psalm 18:2
02-22-2007, 09:29 AM
1. I do not take Finasteride
2. I take Avodart because my DHT blood level is high, I would not take it if my blood levels were low or in range. One Avodart pill is too much for me and I am trying one every other day, this is on advice from a doctor from LEF (not a doctor who wrote the script for Avodart). Additionally, LEF doctor adviced me to take Pomegranate for prostate, Item Catalog Number: 956
3.Testosterone I take because my own is low. I am trying to get my
Those numberes are happy medium of FreeT=160 that Dr Shippen is starting with and data for healthy young men in Table 2&4 of ---http://www.atypon-link.com/WDG/doi/pdf/10.1515/JLM.2006.050
Coincidentally, my TotalT will be around 800.
I use 100mg/1gram Tcream from womensinernational
4. I do not use Arimidex, used in the past, still have a small stash of it just in case.
5. I use DIM, it is Dual-Action from LEF. On advice from their doctor I am using two pills daily. That would amount to one pill of Indolplex when counting DIM only. My pill have also I3C and other stuff. When asked LEF doctor for reason of taking those pills, it was about bad/good estrogen ratio, ONLY. Asked specifically about if DIM+I3C will lower my DHT, she said yes but totally insignificant amount. I asked if I should take more DIM she said no, but I have not got good explanation here.
I forgot to ask her about TMG with DIM, she did not offered it. I am using TMG, long term 100mg is part of LEF multi-vitamin, lately I added 500mg/daily.
6. LEF doctor adviced me to take Progesterone Cream, Item Catalog Number: 616
7. I take a lot of supplements from LEF, here I will mention
Advanced Natural Prostate Formula with 5-LoxinŽ
Item Catalog Number: 975
Super MiraForte with Maximum Strength Chrysin
Item Catalog Number: 615
8. This months issue discusses prostate and enzyme called 5-lipoxygenase (5-LOX) (bad one) and how to inhibit that enzyme.
Le Magazine February 2007 - On The Cover: Eating Your Way To Prostate Cancer
02-22-2007, 11:01 AM
02-22-2007, 12:25 PM
02-22-2007, 12:49 PM
"elevated E2, 4-hydroxyestadiol and 16e-hydroxyestrone"
what do you know about doses, amount of DIM, details of what kind DIM, devil is in the details.
Provide as much details as you are able.
02-22-2007, 12:59 PM
Fin is not the only option....
For your research, why dont you try this forum....
post your questions there...the community is divided-1/2 for naturals and 1/2 for phara.....you will get input from both sectors....
you seem to keep repesting the same info over and over, citing dht levels as your precursor to use dutasteride...Try the other forum and make a post.....
These three have hair transplant patients, most of which take propecia or dut.....<Most of todays md's and ht docs prescribe it....I was prescribed it myself, but chose to never take it.....
Hope this helps
02-22-2007, 01:30 PM
Actually about 10 years ago it started to fall off, I used rogaine, did not helped, I switched to Proscar latter to Avodart, have no problem with hairs, have a head full only slightly thin. I am 67yo.
I have been to other web sites on hair loss. People complaining about finasteride are just handwaving, no scientific research like this or Meso boards.
I really do not care about Proscar or Avodart, I (mostly) do not care about my hair either, but I do care about my enlarged prostate.
I would welcome Dr John (200 words or more) commentary on his current view on prostate health and the other issues that arrise when one have to thinker with his
adrenals/thyroid/androgens that we discuss here.
I understand that there are 2-5% outliers or difficult cases,
they could be omitted in his brief.
Reference to somebody elses view that is supported by Dr John, would be just fine.
.Sorry that my statement highjacked Thinning Hair thread.
02-22-2007, 10:50 PM
geezzzzz this stuff is just too much for me....i'm learning but
SLOWLEY.... I will obviously talk to dr john about this and not use any meds unless cleared prescribed by him...way too much to know here ( someone told me about some sort of surgey...cell volumizing or something like that...you guys hear of it?
02-23-2007, 08:59 AM
You need that much DHT to live.
If you would start Proscar or Avodart you would knock it down below of what you need.
My theory on using Proscar or Avodart is for someone like me, DHT=226 with out them.
Post on your approach after visit with dr.
02-23-2007, 03:00 PM
- 6'3" 195 lbs.
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
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Dr. John sells a Nizoral/Spironolactone shampoo which apparently helps a fair number of guys with high DHT-related hair thinning. I was skeptical until I started doing a bit of research into this. There are a decent number of studies out there indicating that this stuff actually DOES inhibit hair loss (and for a small percentage of guys, may promote hair growth). I have put in my order - You have to be a patient of Dr. John's, however. It is only available by perscription. I'll let you know how it works. BTW, your DHT really isn't that high. Mine is a whopping 248!!!! (and I still have a good amount of hair - There is no MPB in my family.) Hang in there!
02-23-2007, 03:24 PM
So is there anything that you do about your high DHT?
What is your position on high DHT issue?
Mine is 226 when I do nothing and 29 when I am on daily Avodart. Recently I do Avodart every other day.
I am 67yo, have most of my hair but high DHT worry me.
I added one extra pill of my DIM, on the hope that it not only help the 2/16 estrogen issue but possibly also the DHT.
02-23-2007, 04:05 PM
hey cool beans...
thanks for the heads up....let me know how that hair scrub works out for you..
02-23-2007, 07:14 PM
Botox Injections help Prostate Enlargement
Here is a comprehensive explanation on hair loss.
Nioxin Information, What Causes Hair Loss and Hair Thinning
My hair thinned out when I was 27. I do not have male pattern baldness despite DHT 4x normal. I have all my hair but it hasn't receeded or gotten any worse since the initial thinning 8 years ago. The dermatologist said she couldn't figure out what the problem is. She indicated if I did have male pattern baldness and such a high DHT, my hair would have been gone by the time I was 30. My thyroid and adrenals are fine. I'm thinking my liver or diet may be playing a role here.
02-23-2007, 07:22 PM
02-23-2007, 07:29 PM
thanks for the links....i'm not too worried about the hair, it is thinning but as yours it might just stay as is. we'll wait and see.
the prostate article was a cool read...if my prostate grows i'm gona mention it to my uro. dr john told me it wasn't very enlarged but was hard.
02-24-2007, 03:28 AM
Zinc and Vitamin B6 work together to maintain healthy hormone levels. Daily doses are in the range of 50 mg of B6 per day and 30 to 60 mg of zinc. Zinc supplements have been shown to shrink the prostate gland, although it is not recommended as a stand alone treatment. Long term zinc supplementation at doses greater than 40 mg a day can induce a copper deficiency.2 Symptoms of copper deficiency are: anemia, low white blood cell counts, with impaired immune function and an increase in the ratio of bad cholesterol to good cholesterol (LDL/HDL). Zinc supplementation should include 2 to 3 mg of copper. Vitamin B6 (Pyroxidine)
Vitamin B6 is a water-soluble vitamin that is in many enzymes related to protein metabolism. In particular, Vitamin B6, along with zinc, regulates the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT (dihydrotestosterone), which is considered harmful. Consequently, B6 can help control inflammation of the bladder. Vitamin B6, also along with zinc, helps the body resist a hormonal action that can cause swelling of the prostate. Vitamin B6 also helps negate the adverse effects when prolactin levels increase, especially in men 40 and older. Too much prolactin can contribute to the development of prostate tumors.
Zinc is an essential trace element and is one of the most important nutrients in promoting good prostate health. Studies suggest that zinc inhibits an enzyme that naturally increases with age and is responsible for the hormonal changes that cause prostate enlargement. Zinc also has a beneficial anti-bacterial effect, which helps stave off genito-urinary infections.
02-24-2007, 03:32 AM
Zinc is crucial for men's sexual health, yet each time a man ejaculates, he loses approximately 15mg of it in the sperm!
02-24-2007, 02:21 PM
Please take you time and discuss your position on
elevated DHT and BHP.
Their position is stated in the first line:
BASIC ASSUMPTION – CAUSE of BPH
BPH is caused by low bioavailable levels of testosterone,
high levels of DHT and ESTROGEN binding with the hormone receptor sites on the prostate gland. This stimulates cell growth.
BASIC ASSUMPTION- TREATMENT of BPH
By elevating the bioavailabity of testosterone and reducing DHT and Estrogen or blocking their ability to bind with the prostate, the prostate gland will normalize in size and function.
02-24-2007, 02:40 PM
Is this interview published anywhere, please post a link.
At LEF I was taking with a lady who was presented to me as a doctor.
To get her advice LEF membership is required.
Her name and phone
(800) 226-2370 ext. 7620
Thank you for patronizing this board.
my high DHT and low pregnenolone (I hope I remember correctly).
I told her that I am already taking pregnenolone
50mg included in Multivitamins
100mg as separate pills
my blood test (before 100mg)
02-24-2007, 08:20 PM
Why so avidly against progesterone....? If one is defecient, do you recommend using HCg to try and stimulate healthy levels...?
So I understand, its not that you are againt progesterone levels bieng normalized, just againt normalizing them w/direct bio-id progesterone supplementation....or do you not believe in tying to elevate them at all....?
02-24-2007, 09:36 PM
02-26-2007, 07:24 AM
super news, please keep us posted on promissing new developments.
"I disagree with the progesterone supplementation"
1. please state reason,
my progesterone blood level is at upper bound level, anyhow,
additional supplementation is to raise my low pregnenolone.
2. I must say that Dr. Akhundova also seems to be of double mind about progesterone,
but it was about delivery system.
She did not care much about pills but was for use of a cream
02-26-2007, 08:36 AM
Do you agree that progesterone is a natural 5ar inhibitor and also and anti - aromatase...? And if one is defecient, do you recommend treating the defeciency (assuming that the defeciency is established thru vaild testing method)..? What is your protocol...?
02-27-2007, 01:19 PM
- 6'3" 195 lbs.
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
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- Lv. Percent
I am a new patient of Dr. John's, so we haven't talked about this yet. I just did the 24-hour urine test and haven't gotten the results back. I'm not sure what Dr. John's position on high DHT is and whether he uses anything to bring it down. I DO take DIM, but I'm not sure if it has any effect on DHT. I'd also be interested to hear Dr. John's opinion on all of this.
02-27-2007, 04:54 PM
Would you mind sharing details in DIM.
Mostly I am curious on how to read for example a dose size.
Say one is trying to use about 300mg of DIM, what is it?
Using Indolplex as example:
PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM
one pill is 120mg of DIM, so I would use 2.5 pills.
I would disregard explanation that the pill actually contains 25% of bio-active DIM.
This bio-active or not thing is throwing monkey wrench at precise communication.
It would help to know what brand Dr recommends, other than actual amount of DIM there is an issue of I3C and other additives that are different in different brands.
When you have idea about DHT please post it.
If you rather PM me that is ok to.
03-01-2007, 05:06 PM
- 6'3" 195 lbs.
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Rep Power
- Lv. Percent
03-01-2007, 06:44 PM
03-03-2007, 08:28 AM
I also heard somthing about how finasteride destroys your hormone metabolism. How does this happen and how is it irriversible? Is it somthing to do with the liver?
Are there any long term health risks associated with this? I know that a lot of health risks can be stopped by supplementing testosterone, but if your hormonal pathways are screwed, does this mean the testosterone replacement doesnt work in all the other areas of your body too?
I dont understand how a person can feel like absolute death, in the way that only finasteride could, and yet have no long term ill ramifications.
03-03-2007, 01:39 PM
It seems that finasteride has a whole array of short and long term effect that create more roadblocks in trt treatment. I had used Propecia for 6 months around 1998. Based on this use, Dr. John put me in the "Used Finasteride" category.
My understanding is that Finasteride blocks testosterone from converting to DHT via 5-alpha reductase. When you block your body's natural process, it could backfire on you. Individuals react differently to similar protocols. The HPTA is touchy, the goal is hormonal balance and that goal is best met through consistency and professional medical intervention by a competent physician.
03-03-2007, 02:06 PM
The Proscar/Propecia problem -
• “Rare” but dangerous reactions of 5 alpha reductase inhibitors – the “Post Propecia Syndrome”
• Some treatments to consider
The dangerous mis-use of 5 alpha reductase inhibitors to “control DHT excess” during testosterone replacement
Wonder why he did not included Avodart in that list.
I am using one Avodart every other day.
03-03-2007, 09:52 PM
03-03-2007, 11:07 PM
I'd love to hear his explanation....I've been told to use it for years and never have....
I know that results/effects of use arent consistent....I'd alos like to know if there is a way to prescreen to see if you will get the sides from the drug....I know guys that have been on it sice the 90's when it was proscar w/out (noticable)side effects....
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