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Question for Dr. John

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    Question for Dr. John


    Dr. John, what brand of DIM do you reccomend for our patients? Most brands add different ingredients such as IC3, Calcium D-Gluterate, Maca, Yohimbee, etc... It is very difficult to sort through the junk and recognize the quality product. I know Phil reccomends a particular brand, but many people who are taking that brand report it is lowering E2. Obviously, for those of us that take Arimidex, another aromatase inhibitor would not make sense.

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    He doesnt recommend DIM, I dont think...
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    Dr nick delago DIM is what he uses personally
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    Nature's Way DIM-Plus, 120 Tablets,Nature's Way - Nature's Way Branded Phytomedicines 40% Off

    This brand seems comprehensive, except Dr. John recommended to take 300mg a day and their directions indicate men should take 4 tabs a day (400mg) and intensive administration is 8 tabs a day. I'm confused now. 25% diindolylmethane? Does that mean when one is recommended to take 300mg of DIM, one sould take into consideration the 25% purity? Can anyone enlighten me?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanecore View Post
    Nature's Way DIM-Plus, 120 Tablets,Nature's Way - Nature's Way Branded Phytomedicines 40% Off

    This brand seems comprehensive, except Dr. John recommended to take 300mg a day and their directions indicate men should take 4 tabs a day (400mg) and intensive administration is 8 tabs a day. I'm confused now. 25% diindolylmethane? Does that mean when one is recommended to take 300mg of DIM, one sould take into consideration the 25% purity? Can anyone enlighten me?
    This brand also has 320 mgs of calcium carbonate which gives you 3200 mgs of calcium which is WHY TOO MUCH
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanecore View Post
    Nature's Way DIM-Plus, 120 Tablets,Nature's Way - Nature's Way Branded Phytomedicines 40% Off

    This brand seems comprehensive, except Dr. John recommended to take 300mg a day and their directions indicate men should take 4 tabs a day (400mg) and intensive administration is 8 tabs a day. I'm confused now. 25% diindolylmethane? Does that mean when one is recommended to take 300mg of DIM, one sould take into consideration the 25% purity? Can anyone enlighten me?
    That is a very good question.

    300mg dose assuming the 25% would mean 75mg of bio-active DIM
    This looks like a very large dose.
    I am comparing it to:
    Indolplex 1 pill=120mg of 25%=30mg
    people usually are using one or half pill, otherwise they go too low, or claiming that they do.
    also
    LEF Dual_Action 1 pill=14mg DIM recomended 1pill per 160# body weight. Since the dose is so small I am assuming they talk about the bio-available part.
    There is also
    Diindolylmethane DIM
    this one is supposed to be fully bio-available, 150 or 75 mg pills. WOW, that must be a lot of DIM

    and
    Estroblock with I3C 60 count
    100mg DIM+50mg I3C

    It is tough word out there.
    So many DIM's, each one poorly described, make it hard to compare one pill to the other.

    All that is assuming same quality.
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    Hey Phil, why do you recommend not to use DIM with Arimidex. If Arimidex is an estrogen blocker and DIM merely alters estrogen metabolism, why can't they be taken together. I am on Arimidex and Dr. John told me my 4-Hydroxyestradiol was elevated so DIM would be a good addition even though I take Arimidex.

    Are you still using the following:
    PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM
    I saw on the other bord that this product was actually lowering E2 in some of the guys.
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    DIM discussions started in 2005, as far as I can tell.
    This is cutting edge, rabbits responses are being investigated.
    We are the rabbits.
    It is important to collect available information.

    So far my talke home:
    1. small amount (15-45mg) of bio-available DIM, say as half to 1.5 pill of Indolplex, works good

    2. better way would be to get urine test for
    bad estrones, urine test at Rhein Consulting Laboratories
    bad estradiols (how to check them????)(how were your checked, Kanecore???)
    Then take as much DIM as needed to get them down.
    This action may (may not) influence E2 levels.

    3. get blood test for E2, if high adjust using Arimidex

    4. so far it is hard to figure out amount of DIM in different products,

    5. there is two DIM categories
    bottom line DIM, or Bio-available
    bulk DIM, where only 25% counts

    6. Watch out for I3C, also important on its own.
    It is one thing to say that all what counts is that I3C converts to DIM and DIM is what counts.
    Not really true, I3C have it's own estrogen (or estrodial or estriol) fighting ability.
    Delgado and LEF DIM's have I3C as separate componnent

    7. When taking DIM take it with TMG
    What TMG does?
    AFAIK from LEF it fights homocysteine, what else, what to watch for in tests (blood or urine) to determine if enough TMG was taken. If homocysteine is already below LEF recomended 7.0 umol/L (less than 6.3 better) should one take TMG?

    ======================

    Dr J started teaching on DIM around 2005, AFAIK.
    Any more posts or publications on this theme?

    MESO-Rx - View Single Post - I am on HRT with DIM...

    ========================
    EndoManual 3rdEd 2004
    http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...3rdEd_2004.pdf
    ===============
    Kanecore, open your PM, and PM me, please.
    ===========
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    7. When taking DIM take it with TMG
    What TMG does?
    AFAIK from LEF it fights homocysteine, what else, what to watch for in tests (blood or urine) to determine if enough TMG was taken. If homocysteine is already below LEF recomended 7.0 umol/L (less than 6.3 better) should one take TMG?

    ======================

    Dr J started teaching on DIM around 2005, AFAIK.
    Any more posts or publications on this theme?

    MESO-Rx - View Single Post - I am on HRT with DIM...

    ========================
    EndoManual 3rdEd 2004
    http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...3rdEd_2004.pdf
    ===============
    Kanecore, open your PM, and PM me, please.
    ===========[/QUOTE]

    i have low homocystein like 3.9 and i think TMG with DIM would counteract the effects which i am trying to do raise my homocysteine levels LOL, but I am waiting for the test results to come back doing anything. Simple rule of thumb if your crap is tan vs normal color you lack bile due to low homocysteine levels. With out homocystein you can not make bile acids and bile
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    Dr. Marianco, Urine more accurate then Blood?
    It is not whether or not one is more "accurate" than the other. Both are "accurate" in what they do.

    The question is what test will give one the information one seeks.

    MESO-Rx - View Single Post - Dr. Marianco, Urine more accurate then Blood?
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Three substances found in the same vegetables - indole-3-carbinol, 3,3'-diindolylmethane, and ascorbigen - have been found to positively modify the good/bad estrogen ratio.
    Introducing FemRatio and MaleRatio
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Another product containing DIM ( indole-3-carbinol (I3C), diindolylmethane (DIM), and ascorbigen (AG))
    Dr. Jonathan Wright's MaleRatioTM
    Life Enhancement:: Product > MaleRatio™
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    When taking Dim I noticed a dramatic decrease in blood pressure was this telling me that i was actually too low in estrogen since estrogen raises blood pressure? and copper increases sodium retention because it runs parellel usually to estrogen if it is not build up in tissues. Even while on cortef... with sea salts in the morning
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    That is an awesome post.
    How to get my hands on your:
    "A Primer on Estrogen Management in the Adult Male Patient"
    MESO-Rx - View Single Post - I am on HRT with DIM...
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    Scientific research shows diindolylmethane increases the level of "good" estrogens (2-hydroxyestrogen) while reducing the level of "bad" estrogens (16-hydroxyestrogen).
    ============================== ==============
    Nature's Way DIM-Plus, 120 Tablets,Nature's Way - Nature's Way Branded Phytomedicines 40% Off
    DIM-Plus, 120 Tablets, Nature's Way
    Sale price: $23.39
    Serving Size 2 Capsules
    Amount Per Serving - Daily Value %
    Vitamin E - 9 IU - 30% (as d-alpha tocopheryl succinate)
    BioResponse-DIM complex - 100 mg (patented, enhanced bioavailability complex containing 25% diindolylmethane) starch, diindolylmethane, natural vitamin E, phosphatidylcholine, silica
    blessed by Dr Zeligs
    so each capsule contains 50*.25=12.5mg DIM
    men take up to 8 capsules/day (that is lot of DIM)
    ============================== ==============
    Diindolylmethane DIM
    by Michael A. Zeligs, M.D
    DIM(Diindolylmethane)
    Super high (x10) potency, actual DIM, no fillers!
    Amount Per One (1) Capsule
    DIM (Bioavailable Diindolylmethane) 75mg & 150mg
    do not know if it have to be considered as full or 25%
    Suggested Use: Take 1-2 tablets daily with food.
    ============================== ================
    Estroblock with I3C -60 count
    Estroblock (60 ct) has 100mg DIM with I3C 50mg
    do not know the dose or if it have to be considered as full or 25%
    ============================== =================
    PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM
    Indolplex® Complex 120 mg *
    modified food starch, 25% diindolylmethane (DIM)
    120*0.25=30mg of DIM
    Phil take half or one pill
    ============================== =================
    Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw, 60 Vegetarian Capsules
    Dual-Action
    DIM (Di-indolyl-methane) 14 mg
    I am assuming that it is already as the available
    compared to say 30mg in Indolplex
    One capsule daily for individuals weighing up to 160 pounds
    I am using double dose, may be I should increase it?
    ============================== ==================
    Rhein Consulting Laboratories
    Comprehensive Steroid Hormone Profile
    Estrogens
    Estrone (E1)
    2-Hydroxyestrone
    16a-Hydroxyestrone
    Estradiol (E2)
    Estriol (E3)
    ============================== ==================
    MESO-Rx - View Single Post - I am on HRT with DIM...
    The CYP1A1 enzyme produces the wonderfully beneficial 2-hydroxyestrone metabolite. Therefore increasing its activity is a very good thing.

    The CYP1B1 enzyme makes 4-hydroxyestrone, which, like 16-alpha-hydroxyestrone, is genotoxic, mutagenic and procarcinogenic. However, 4-OHE is inhibited with DMG. A better choice might be TMG, which becomes DMG after it donates a methyl group, and that event has various and sundary health benefits of its own. TMG must be taken at about twice the amount of DMG for its effects on estrogen management.

    I have never heard anyone say this before, but perhaps we should not ever take DIM without TMG/DMG also, lest we increase 4-OHE levels. I will be lecturing on this very topic before the Royal College of Physicians in a few weeks, so maybe I have something new to share with them. Thank you for making me think about this topic today.

    Calcium D-glucarate also inhibits 4-OHE. AAL Laboratories says folic acid will as well.

    My understanding is that DIM improves the healthful 2-hydroxyestrone to nasty 16-alpha-hydroxyestrone ratio.
    -------------------------------------------------
    To increase 2-OHE/16-aOHE:
    Phytoestrogens
    High protein, low fat diet
    Reduce Omega-6 and AA generators
    Add Omega-3’s
    Add flaxseed
    Di-indolemethane--DIM (300mg QD)
    Indole-3-carbinol (I-3-C)
    Inhibit aromatase activity
    ============================== ==================
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Did I say to use flax? Don't think so. If so, SHAME, SHAME on me!
    Ok Flax is out.
    We are talking cuttin edge, shame is not right word to use.
    But
    what about DIM dose, is it still 300mg every day?
    How do you describe DIM, before or after the 25% factor

    What are the phytoestrogens?
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JanSz
    How to get my hands on your:
    "A Primer on Estrogen Management in the Adult Male Patient"
    MESO-Rx - View Single Post - I am on HRT with DIM...
    ===========


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    See my new lecture on stage for A4M in Orlando in April?

    Okay, how about if I make an arrangement to offer it on this Forum for a small fee (from a professional service who requires this)?
    Suits me fine, how to pay for it.
    Is it ok to bother Kim with this request?
    --------------------------------

    How about, I send you a check, you E-mail me the file with information.
    Would be faster if you could accept credit card over internet.
    On top of the file put in all kind of disclaimers, it is a cutting edge info, may change tomorrow afternoon when new data become available, and some such.
    Just do it today, I am not getting any younger.
    --------------------------------
    While you at it:
    make a list of
    your publications
    Dr Shippen publications
    other relevant publications
    make them available for purchase and/or for vieving from your web site.
    ----------------------------------
    Expand to DHT and prostate management.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanecore View Post
    Hey Phil, why do you recommend not to use DIM with Arimidex. If Arimidex is an estrogen blocker and DIM merely alters estrogen metabolism, why can't they be taken together. I am on Arimidex and Dr. John told me my 4-Hydroxyestradiol was elevated so DIM would be a good addition even though I take Arimidex.

    Are you still using the following:
    PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM
    I saw on the other bord that this product was actually lowering E2 in some of the guys.
    I had to stop the Indolplex/DIM because we found I feel better at higher levels of TT and Ft and taking more then one tablet of Indolplex/DIM made me sick to my stomach and gave me a bad headache. My Dr. feels doing them both would be ok but doing this I have very bad skin rashs and broke out in hives. I don't feel they should be taking together.
    Phil
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18 View Post
    I had to stop the Indolplex/DIM because we found I feel better at higher levels of TT and Ft and taking more then one tablet of Indolplex/DIM made me sick to my stomach and gave me a bad headache. My Dr. feels doing them both would be ok but doing this I have very bad skin rashs and broke out in hives. I don't feel they should be taking together.
    Phil
    DIM plus TMG and Arimidex influences at least:

    homocysteine

    Estrone (E1)
    2-Hydroxyestrone
    16a-Hydroxyestrone

    Estradiol (E2)

    have you tested them?
    how they behave in your case?

    What else is influenced by the above?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Did I say to use flax? Don't think so. If so, SHAME, SHAME on me!
    I was under the assumption that organic, ground flax seeds are healthy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Did I say to use flax? Don't think so. If so, SHAME, SHAME on me!
    What is wrong with flax, Dr. John?
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    I believe that I read somewhere in this forum that studies have shown that supplementing with Flax seeds/oil can raise estrogen levels..


    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...=flax+seed+oil
    Last edited by biker340; 02-26-2007 at 05:11 PM. Reason: added link
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    I was under the assumption that organic, ground flax seeds are healthy.
    Here is a good link I came accross.
    http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/8/4/410.pdf
    Phil
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18 View Post
    Here is a good link I came accross.
    http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/8/4/410.pdf
    Phil
    I was wondering about this article.
    They promote, or at least do not single out flax.

    IIRC, Dr John's position was that Flax have good name (Omega-3) but really it is something useless, he did not say harmfull.
    It is about lenght of chemical chain, flax have too short chain.

    Hopefully Dr John chimes in.
    ============================== ====================
    Other than from Dr John I have not heard of uselesness of flax, everybody likes it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I was wondering about this article.
    They promote, or at least do not single out flax.

    IIRC, Dr John's position was that Flax have good name (Omega-3) but really it is something useless, he did not say harmfull.
    It is about lenght of chemical chain, flax have too short chain.

    Hopefully Dr John chimes in.
    ============================== ====================
    Other than from Dr John I have not heard of uselesness of flax, everybody likes it.
    With anything moderation is the key!! i was a flax seed oil freak for several years untill evetually knocked out my arachondic acid balance. Thats another story LOL That probably way my CRP is not even detacatable HAHA
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    doctors?


    are some of you guys doctors on this forum? i know dr john is....

    i just wonder how if not....you can know so much about this stuff

    gezzzzzz...makes me feel like an imbasil (

    anyone wana talk cars? motorcycles? powerplant valves.....i know wrong forum.

    i just find it so interesting that you guys can understand so much about this stuff.

    bob
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyn View Post
    are some of you guys doctors on this forum? i know dr john is....

    i just wonder how if not....you can know so much about this stuff

    gezzzzzz...makes me feel like an imbasil (

    anyone wana talk cars? motorcycles? powerplant valves.....i know wrong forum.

    i just find it so interesting that you guys can understand so much about this stuff.

    bob
    We may be hormonal wacked but we still have our intellect, but some of us are still alittle a few sandwiches short of a full picnic basket. HEY HEY BOO BOO
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