TRT, Bloat and Itchy Nipples!!!! LABS - AnabolicMinds.com

TRT, Bloat and Itchy Nipples!!!! LABS

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  1. yianni54's Avatar
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    TRT, Bloat and Itchy Nipples!!!! LABS


    Hello,

    I have been on TRT for almost a year now. I am a patient of Dr. John's. . .

    I am 29 and my last lab results (done on a Thursday afternoon) were as follows:

    % Free Testosterone 3.3 2.0-4.8
    Free Test 28.4 9-30ng/dl
    Total Test 861 240-950
    Bioavailable Test 370 83-257
    DHT 70
    SHBG 29 10-60NMOL/L
    Estradiol 25 (range goes to 70)

    My current protocol:

    100mg Test Cyp. Every Sunday
    60mg Armour
    1iu HGH per day

    My symptoms:

    Ever since I have started TRT I have gained about 12lbs. It is mostly water and bloat. Most recently, the last month or so, I have noticed my chest and nipples have gotten extremely itchy, not sore but very itchy. Additionaly, last week I began Dr. John's HCG protocol. My nipples got even itchier. . .

    I would like to know if this is gyno? Also, does everyone get this bloated when on TRT?

    Also, I can't seem to lose weight at all. No matter how hard I try, I can't lose any weight. I train 4-6 times per week and have a clean diet low in carbs.

    Do I have an estrogen problem even though my Estradiol is 25?

    Dr. John says my Estradiol and SHBG are in range, but my symptoms are not indicative of being optimal.

    I would like others to share their thoughts here. . .Dr. John will not let me try Arimidex as this may throw my other values out of whack, understandable. I will also be trying DIM and will lower my dosing of Test from 100 to 80mg to see if this makes a difference.

    Any thoughts are very appreciated. Thanks

  2. JanSz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    Hello,

    I have been on TRT for almost a year now. I am a patient of Dr. John's. . .

    I am 29 and my last lab results (done on a Thursday afternoon) were as follows:

    % Free Testosterone 3.3 2.0-4.8
    Free Test 28.4 9-30ng/dl
    Total Test 861 240-950
    Bioavailable Test 370 83-257
    DHT 70
    SHBG 29 10-60NMOL/L
    Estradiol 25 (range goes to 70)

    My current protocol:

    100mg Test Cyp. Every Sunday
    60mg Armour
    1iu HGH per day

    My symptoms:

    Ever since I have started TRT I have gained about 12lbs. It is mostly water and bloat. Most recently, the last month or so, I have noticed my chest and nipples have gotten extremely itchy, not sore but very itchy. Additionaly, last week I began Dr. John's HCG protocol. My nipples got even itchier. . .

    I would like to know if this is gyno? Also, does everyone get this bloated when on TRT?

    Also, I can't seem to lose weight at all. No matter how hard I try, I can't lose any weight. I train 4-6 times per week and have a clean diet low in carbs.

    Do I have an estrogen problem even though my Estradiol is 25?

    Dr. John says my Estradiol and SHBG are in range, but my symptoms are not indicative of being optimal.

    I would like others to share their thoughts here. . .Dr. John will not let me try Arimidex as this may throw my other values out of whack, understandable. I will also be trying DIM and will lower my dosing of Test from 100 to 80mg to see if this makes a difference.
    Any thoughts are very appreciated. Thanks
    My thoughts, I redlined your problems and Dr's advice. Looks like right on the dot.
    Now you have to implement Dr's advice plus wait a month and half or little more and see if you have improved, which you most likely will.

    What is your FreeT3
    How long have you been on HGH, is this Dr J idea?
    I was under impression that HGH is a last on the line, after you are optimized your adrenals, thyroid, test and estrogens.
    May want to consider twice a week T injections or Tcream.
  3. ItsHectic's Avatar
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    Are you getting lumps?
    Maybe get your progesterone checked?
    •   
       

  4. yianni54's Avatar
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    All,

    Thanks for your time in reading and replying. My Thyroid levels are good. I don't have the labs present but Dr. J says they are exactly where he wants them to be.

    I forgot to mention my IGF-1 was 188 (126-382). It was Dr. J's idea, 1iu per day.

    No lumps! Just itchy!

    But what I have found is that the bloat is heavy on Monday, Tues., Wed., and then starts to decline on Friday, Sat. Sun. but then I do my shot on Sunday.

    Thanks!
  5. yianni54's Avatar
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    For JanSz


    JanSz,

    You red lined my Estrogen which was at 25. Are you saying that this high or good when looking at the overall labs? Thanks
  6. JanSz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    JanSz,

    You red lined my Estrogen which was at 25. Are you saying that this high or good when looking at the overall labs? Thanks
    Hard to say, most likely depends on how you feel, the desirable range is (10-30), so the middle is at 15. The other thing that Dr John newer explained (or I overlooked his explanation) is,
    when E2 is high we use DIM. But DIM does not directly affect E2, only indirectly. So it is a gray area. Plus Dr John openly admitted to some trade secrets. You are using DIM, so the question is about tuned dose of DIM.
    BTW, what kind of DIM and why this kind and not another?

    Over all it is hard to keep levels steady. Healthy person have hormones all over the place thruout the day, depending on his routine, he just have a good working regulatory system. With what we do we attempt to keep our hormones steady, that is the best what we can do, but most likely not optimal way.
    Wonder if there is a little better way of regulating hormones or attempt at it?
  7. JanSz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    All,

    Thanks for your time in reading and replying. My Thyroid levels are good. I don't have the labs present but Dr. J says they are exactly where he wants them to be.

    I forgot to mention my IGF-1 was 188 (126-382). It was Dr. J's idea, 1iu per day.

    No lumps! Just itchy!

    But what I have found is that the bloat is heavy on Monday, Tues., Wed., and then starts to decline on Friday, Sat. Sun. but then I do my shot on Sunday.
    Thanks!
    Up/down T levels.
    Why don't you try Tcream, steady levels, easy to apply, low cost. I apply it to my thigh.
    --
    How much you pay for HGH?
    I just got XYZ catalog in a mail.
    HGH Saisen Easy Click Pen 1iu $19.99
    there are other less expensive and less convenient combinations.
    I bought Armour from them.
  8. christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    Hello,

    I have been on TRT for almost a year now. I am a patient of Dr. John's. . .
    How long w/Dr John...?
  9. yianni54's Avatar
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    The whole time. . .I searched for a doc and did my research and then I just decided to make the trip.
  10. cpeil2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    Hello,

    I have been on TRT for almost a year now. I am a patient of Dr. John's. . .

    I am 29 and my last lab results (done on a Thursday afternoon) were as follows:

    % Free Testosterone 3.3 2.0-4.8
    Free Test 28.4 9-30ng/dl
    Total Test 861 240-950
    Bioavailable Test 370 83-257
    DHT 70
    SHBG 29 10-60NMOL/L
    Estradiol 25 (range goes to 70)

    My current protocol:

    100mg Test Cyp. Every Sunday
    60mg Armour
    1iu HGH per day

    My symptoms:

    Ever since I have started TRT I have gained about 12lbs. It is mostly water and bloat. Most recently, the last month or so, I have noticed my chest and nipples have gotten extremely itchy, not sore but very itchy. Additionaly, last week I began Dr. John's HCG protocol. My nipples got even itchier. . .

    I would like to know if this is gyno? Also, does everyone get this bloated when on TRT?

    Also, I can't seem to lose weight at all. No matter how hard I try, I can't lose any weight. I train 4-6 times per week and have a clean diet low in carbs.

    Do I have an estrogen problem even though my Estradiol is 25?

    Dr. John says my Estradiol and SHBG are in range, but my symptoms are not indicative of being optimal.

    I would like others to share their thoughts here. . .Dr. John will not let me try Arimidex as this may throw my other values out of whack, understandable. I will also be trying DIM and will lower my dosing of Test from 100 to 80mg to see if this makes a difference.

    Any thoughts are very appreciated. Thanks

    My story's about the same as yours. Lab values were terrific, including E2, but I had a whole cluster of unpleasant symptoms - bloat, hot flashes, night sweats, wheezing, nipple discomfort, elevated blood pressure and heart rate.

    I had a 24 hour urine done which revealed that my total E's were pretty high, even though E2 was fine.

    Dr. John did allow me to try A'dex, which didn't help. In fact, if anything, I felt worse.

    I cut back my weekly dose from 100 to 75 mg. and got some improvement in the symptoms. Then I switched from once weekly dosing to every three days, keeping the total weekly dose at 75 mg, which resulted in more improvement. However, the symptoms never completely went away, and the high blood pressure and elevated heart rate didn't improve at all.

    Finally, when my BP topped out at 160/90, I decided I was going to have to give up on the TRT, at least temporarily.
  11. Kanecore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    My story's about the same as yours. Lab values were terrific, including E2, but I had a whole cluster of unpleasant symptoms - bloat, hot flashes, night sweats, wheezing, nipple discomfort, elevated blood pressure and heart rate.

    I had a 24 hour urine done which revealed that my total E's were pretty high, even though E2 was fine.

    Dr. John did allow me to try A'dex, which didn't help. In fact, if anything, I felt worse.

    I cut back my weekly dose from 100 to 75 mg. and got some improvement in the symptoms. Then I switched from once weekly dosing to every three days, keeping the total weekly dose at 75 mg, which resulted in more improvement. However, the symptoms never completely went away, and the high blood pressure and elevated heart rate didn't improve at all.

    Finally, when my BP topped out at 160/90, I decided I was going to have to give up on the TRT, at least temporarily.

    I also have elevated total Es and an E2 level of 20. Arimidex doesn't really help at all. I feel worse and have gotten BPH and constipation. I did a lot of research and found that the culprit may be found in the liver. Since your liver metabolises estrogen, an elevated total estrogen may indicate problems therein. I am beginning to use 400 mg of DIM per day, 60 mg of L-Opti Zinc and Hepatogen by Vitamin Research Products (VRP). Hepatogen contains TMG, Milk Thistle, NAC, ALA and many other essential nutirents to aid the liver. I have cut out alcohol altogether and I began drinking more water. Also, I began taking Detox Fiber by VRP, Digestive Enzymes with every meal and a probiotic. These supplements will aid in digestion, promote good bacteria in the intestines and assist with liver function. I began using these products three days ago and I already feel much better and am excited to see when I get my labs done again.
  12. yianni54's Avatar
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    I just ordered some DIM myself. I am hoping this will help with the bloat.

    Did the Arimidex help with the bloat? Thanks
  13. cpeil2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    I just ordered some DIM myself. I am hoping this will help with the bloat.

    Did the Arimidex help with the bloat? Thanks

    No, it made it worse.
  14. hardasnails1973's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Notice his symptoms worsen as serum androgen levels are rising.

    But so are estrogens. We need to take a look at the estrogen metabolites, a has laready been suggested.
    This concept of TRT is where all other DRS have over looked and is the most crucial to finding hidden barriers to why despite everything looks normal on blood work, but we still feel like crap and Dr john has been only one to address this
    issue. Do you understand why I have been stressing importance of proper balance of liver pathway from the very start one of the most important things over looked by 99 % of the drs.

    In your intiial labs did you get homocysteine levels checked? That may give you a clue to may be what is going on but again it goes back to bodys abaility to metabolise estrogens.
  15. SoMdHunter's Avatar
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    This complicated case is worth following. I like the fact that Dr. John isn't giving up!
  16. hardasnails1973's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanecore View Post
    I also have elevated total Es and an E2 level of 20. Arimidex doesn't really help at all. I feel worse and have gotten BPH and constipation. I did a lot of research and found that the culprit may be found in the liver. Since your liver metabolises estrogen, an elevated total estrogen may indicate problems therein. I am beginning to use 400 mg of DIM per day, 60 mg of L-Opti Zinc and Hepatogen by Vitamin Research Products (VRP). Hepatogen contains TMG, Milk Thistle, NAC, ALA and many other essential nutirents to aid the liver. I have cut out alcohol altogether and I began drinking more water. Also, I began taking Detox Fiber by VRP, Digestive Enzymes with every meal and a probiotic. These supplements will aid in digestion, promote good bacteria in the intestines and assist with liver function. I began using these products three days ago and I already feel much better and am excited to see when I get my labs done again.
    I have an idea you and I are in the same boat bro, and if you got your homocystein levels checked I bet they are in the toilet. Let me explain why. Estrogen is detoxified through conjugation and excreted through bile so what is going to happen is that your sam-e is going to get divereted to the sulfuration pathway to form excessive bile and your going to get excessive amounts of taurine that is will be excreted. When this happens your going to need molydebnum to help prevent the taurine from being diverted to sulfites which can cause more problems. So your will be over loaded in one pathway and deficiency in methylation. TMG will help to some extend but not as much as foloninc, methy b-12 to help open up the primary pathway back to sam=e. Glycine will also help with the congugation of the estrogen, reason you can not crap is because excessive estrogen causes a defieincy of p5p from attaching to the receptor sites and hence zinc will not be utlizled properly and your prostrate will be highly affected and with all your P5P going to your CBS to detoxify your estrogens your gaba, and other bodily functions of P5P will be affected (stomach acids, thyroid, ect). The body takes detoxification as priority to rid the toxins so all of its energy is divereted towards that. And if you can not crap then the already converted estrogen just keeps recirulating around in your body and hits the liver again abd keeps lowering your good bacteria count mainly your bifiodpolhpis. This is cause autointoxofcation and how cancer can start.. The estrogen that is recirculated is not estrodial but rather bad estrogen which goe on to block the receptor sites of testosterone same as estrodial. If I have any of this wrong DR john please correct me..If you are chemical senstive to smell such as perfumes, gasoline, ect then you may have excessvie sulfites not being converted to sulfate due to lack of molybednum. This finally click the other day when since started MSM I noticed opposite of what it was supose to do and found out that you need adquete amounts of molybdenum and copper/estrogen excess can deplete that. Since moly is used for wilson's disease which people with adrenal fatigue have a simlar thing happening due to the fact that low adrenals causes binding of copper in the liver due to lack of the ceruoplasm for it to bind to so it can be excreted..

    One explanation for the link between estrogen dominance and allergies is that estrogen promotes the release of histamine, the chemical that is responsible for troublesome allergy symptoms such as nasal congestion, watery eyes, coughing, and wheezing.
    Another explanation, which I’ll be discussing in greater detail in the next chapter, has to do with the relationship between progesterone and the adrenal hormone cortisol. Cortisol, which is made in the adrenal glands from progesterone, is the body’s natural anti-inflammatory hormone. In fact, synthetic drugs, commonly called “cortisone,” are sometimes prescribed for bronchial asthma, a severe allergic condition, because they mimic the anti-inflammatory action of the body’s own cortisol. Histamines also increases Nitric oxide which suppresses cortisol production so its amazing how everything is linked isn't it. And increasing nitric oxide suppresses the methione synthase which converts homocystein back into methione via methyl b-12/folate pathways and TMG helps can help this to a certain degree. This forces to use TMG and CBS pathways which are now over loaded

    excess Estrogen -increases histmaines -increases NO - lowers cortisol - decreases thyroid- deactivates methioine synthase - undermethylation of liver - decreases methy b-12, folate (immune system, neurotranmistters imbalance) - decreases sam-e - fatty liver (endocrine disruption, binding problems of hormones to receptors) - lowers gluthione - increases cancer risk
  17. cpeil2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    I have an idea you and I are in the same boat bro, and if you got your homocystein levels checked I bet they are in the toilet. Let me explain why. Estrogen is detoxified through conjugation and excreted through bile so what is going to happen is that your sam-e is going to get divereted to the sulfuration pathway to form excessive bile and your going to get excessive amounts of taurine that is will be excreted. When this happens your going to need molydebnum to help prevent the taurine from being diverted to sulfites which can cause more problems. So your will be over loaded in one pathway and deficiency in methylation. TMG will help to some extend but not as much as foloninc, methy b-12 to help open up the primary pathway back to sam=e. Glycine will also help with the congugation of the estrogen, reason you can not crap is because excessive estrogen causes a defieincy of p5p from attaching to the receptor sites and hence zinc will not be utlizled properly and your prostrate will be highly affected and with all your P5P going to your CBS to detoxify your estrogens your gaba, and other bodily functions of P5P will be affected (stomach acids, thyroid, ect). The body takes detoxification as priority to rid the toxins so all of its energy is divereted towards that. And if you can not crap then the already converted estrogen just keeps recirulating around in your body and hits the liver again abd keeps lowering your good bacteria count mainly your bifiodpolhpis. This is cause autointoxofcation and how cancer can start.. The estrogen that is recirculated is not estrodial but rather bad estrogen which goe on to block the receptor sites of testosterone same as estrodial. If I have any of this wrong DR john please correct me..If you are chemical senstive to smell such as perfumes, gasoline, ect then you may have excessvie sulfites not being converted to sulfate due to lack of molybednum. This finally click the other day when since started MSM I noticed opposite of what it was supose to do and found out that you need adquete amounts of molybdenum and copper/estrogen excess can deplete that. Since moly is used for wilson's disease which people with adrenal fatigue have a simlar thing happening due to the fact that low adrenals causes binding of copper in the liver due to lack of the ceruoplasm for it to bind to so it can be excreted..

    One explanation for the link between estrogen dominance and allergies is that estrogen promotes the release of histamine, the chemical that is responsible for troublesome allergy symptoms such as nasal congestion, watery eyes, coughing, and wheezing.
    Another explanation, which I’ll be discussing in greater detail in the next chapter, has to do with the relationship between progesterone and the adrenal hormone cortisol. Cortisol, which is made in the adrenal glands from progesterone, is the body’s natural anti-inflammatory hormone. In fact, synthetic drugs, commonly called “cortisone,” are sometimes prescribed for bronchial asthma, a severe allergic condition, because they mimic the anti-inflammatory action of the body’s own cortisol. Histamines also increases Nitric oxide which suppresses cortisol production so its amazing how everything is linked isn't it. And increasing nitric oxide suppresses the methione synthase which converts homocystein back into methione via methyl b-12/folate pathways and TMG helps can help this to a certain degree. This forces to use TMG and CBS pathways which are now over loaded

    excess Estrogen -increases histmaines -increases NO - lowers cortisol - decreases thyroid- deactivates methioine synthase - undermethylation of liver - decreases methy b-12, folate (immune system, neurotranmistters imbalance) - decreases sam-e - fatty liver (endocrine disruption, binding problems of hormones to receptors) - lowers gluthione - increases cancer risk
    So, then, if a person has problems caused by inadequate methylation, wouldn't an optimal solution include both a methyl donor--TMG, SAM-E, etc. and at least one methylating agent-- B12, folic acid, B6 . . .?
  18. hardasnails1973's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    So, then, if a person has problems caused by inadequate methylation, wouldn't an optimal solution include both a methyl donor--TMG, SAM-E, etc. and at least one methylating agent-- B12, folic acid, B6 . . .?
    TRue, but there is something called the methyl trapping where folate gets stuck and can not convert to 5 - methyltetrahydro folate which occurs in an esitmated 30% of the population and no matter how much regular regular b-12 and folic acid you supplement it will only cause build up in liver. So depending on homocystein levels if a person is undermethylated it may some times be low and through research throuigh autistic childern they where given 800 mcg folinic acid with 2000 mcgs of methl b-12 with 500 mg TMG and this increased there homocysteine levels and sam-e levels. Check homocysteine levels before supplementing with sam-e because it could push them even higher.
  19. pmgamer18's Avatar
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    The following is from this link for FTM but still full of dam good info.
    Hudson's Guide: FTM Testosterone Therapy and General Health
    ----------------------------------------------------

    Edema
    Edema refers to the abnormal buildup of fluid in the ankles, feet, and legs. It is usually painless. Testosterone is known to cause water and electrolyte retention (i.e., sodium, potassium, calcium, and inorganic phosphates), which can contribute to such swelling. Sometimes increasing daily water intake can reduce or end the problem.
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    Hello,

    I have been on TRT for almost a year now. I am a patient of Dr. John's. . .

    I am 29 and my last lab results (done on a Thursday afternoon) were as follows:

    % Free Testosterone 3.3 2.0-4.8
    Free Test 28.4 9-30ng/dl
    Total Test 861 240-950
    Bioavailable Test 370 83-257
    DHT 70
    SHBG 29 10-60NMOL/L
    Estradiol 25 (range goes to 70)

    My current protocol:

    100mg Test Cyp. Every Sunday
    60mg Armour
    1iu HGH per day

    My symptoms:

    Ever since I have started TRT I have gained about 12lbs. It is mostly water and bloat. Most recently, the last month or so, I have noticed my chest and nipples have gotten extremely itchy, not sore but very itchy. Additionaly, last week I began Dr. John's HCG protocol. My nipples got even itchier. . .

    I would like to know if this is gyno? Also, does everyone get this bloated when on TRT?

    Also, I can't seem to lose weight at all. No matter how hard I try, I can't lose any weight. I train 4-6 times per week and have a clean diet low in carbs.

    Do I have an estrogen problem even though my Estradiol is 25?

    Dr. John says my Estradiol and SHBG are in range, but my symptoms are not indicative of being optimal.

    I would like others to share their thoughts here. . .Dr. John will not let me try Arimidex as this may throw my other values out of whack, understandable. I will also be trying DIM and will lower my dosing of Test from 100 to 80mg to see if this makes a difference.

    Any thoughts are very appreciated. Thanks
  20. willis3's Avatar
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    just curious, what kind of ester did you switch to?
  21. KSman's Avatar
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    Changing the ester also changes the base oil. Test cyp is usually cotton seed oil. Test eth, I believe, is sesame seed oil. Perhaps when one changes esters and there is an improvement, it might be because of a sensitivity to the base oil. If the base oil causes a histamine reaction, perhaps taking benadryl would yield some interesting observations about water retention.
  22. jaydee's Avatar
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    Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this stuff is very interesting. My E2 is only slightly above where it should be, yet I am pretty sure I am getting symptoms of high E such as itchy chest, bloat and hot flushes. My libido is also still shot despite being on TRT and i get no morning wood at all. How is everyone else's libido with this?

    Would Calcium D Glucarate help with this if it is bad estrogens recirculating in our system? As well as DIM of course.

    How is everyones Liver function tests? If we had trouble conjugating, which I do, then billirubin should be elevated.

    Did anyone have any improvements and did we find out any more about this topic?
  23. JanSz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
    Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this stuff is very interesting. My E2 is only slightly above where it should be, yet I am pretty sure I am getting symptoms of high E such as itchy chest, bloat and hot flushes. My libido is also still shot despite being on TRT and i get no morning wood at all. How is everyone else's libido with this?

    Would Calcium D Glucarate help with this if it is bad estrogens recirculating in our system? As well as DIM of course.

    How is everyones Liver function tests? If we had trouble conjugating, which I do, then billirubin should be elevated.

    Did anyone have any improvements and did we find out any more about this topic?
    What are you doing to manage your estrogens?
  24. jaydee's Avatar
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    Im on a 10% compounded T cream with 5% Chrysin to control E (because thats all I can get ATM), and DIM. I wasnt sure of the actual dose of DIM in Indolplex, but ive recently figured out that it is not enough - somthing like 70mg. So ive ordered one with a higher amount of DIM so I can aim for 300mg per day.
  25. MacDonnell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    My story's about the same as yours. Lab values were terrific, including E2, but I had a whole cluster of unpleasant symptoms - bloat, hot flashes, night sweats, wheezing, nipple discomfort, elevated blood pressure and heart rate.

    I had a 24 hour urine done which revealed that my total E's were pretty high, even though E2 was fine.

    Dr. John did allow me to try A'dex, which didn't help. In fact, if anything, I felt worse.

    I cut back my weekly dose from 100 to 75 mg. and got some improvement in the symptoms. Then I switched from once weekly dosing to every three days, keeping the total weekly dose at 75 mg, which resulted in more improvement. However, the symptoms never completely went away, and the high blood pressure and elevated heart rate didn't improve at all.

    Finally, when my BP topped out at 160/90, I decided I was going to have to give up on the TRT, at least temporarily.
    Why didn't you ask Dr. John if he could put you on medication to control the bp?
  26. JanSz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
    Im on a 10% compounded T cream with 5% Chrysin to control E (because thats all I can get ATM), and DIM. I wasnt sure of the actual dose of DIM in Indolplex, but ive recently figured out that it is not enough - somthing like 70mg. So ive ordered one with a higher amount of DIM so I can aim for 300mg per day.
    Did not know that Chrysin could be put in Tcream, cool.
    Who makes that cream.
    Wonder if it actually works.
    I remember, someplace LEF was saing that Chrysin need to be in company of Bioperine to make it work.
    I take my Chrysin from LEF;
    Super Miraforte With Max Strength Chrysin, 120 Caps

    -------------
    DIM
    One tablet of Indolplex is 120mg
    it contains 25% of DIM
    that is 30mg
    to get 300mg dose one needs 10 pills.
    PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM
    missing I3C here.
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    There is little discussion that ends up with 8 pills/day, here, they added I3C to Dr Zelig's type of DIM
    Nature's Way DIM-Plus, 120 Tablets,Nature's Way - Nature's Way Branded Phytomedicines 40% Off
    Nature's Way DIM-Plus
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    I use Dual-Action from LEF
    Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw, 60 Vegetarian Capsules
    Each pill have 14 mg DIM
    LEF recomends 1 pill per 160#, I have 160#, use 6 pills daily.
    May be I should increase my dose, I am going for blood test soon.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    300mg of DIM with 1000mg TMG originated (AFAIK) here:
    MESO-Rx - View Single Post - I am on HRT with DIM...
  27. yianni54's Avatar
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    Update!!!!!!Itchy Nipples, Bloat and TRT


    Just an update.

    So I decreased my weekly dose to 80mg of test. I had my blood test again on a Thursday afternoon and this time E2 went from 25 to 28 and the range is up to 40. I still feel the itchy chest/nipples and bloat. I have been taking DIM and TMG.

    Could the DIM and TMG have possibly increased E2?

    Also, if you have high estrogen levels could this keep you from losing weight or keep you just from losing lower belly fat??

    Thanks
  28. JanSz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    Just an update.

    So I decreased my weekly dose to 80mg of test. I had my blood test again on a Thursday afternoon and this time E2 went from 25 to 28 and the range is up to 40. I still feel the itchy chest/nipples and bloat. I have been taking DIM and TMG.

    Could the DIM and TMG have possibly increased E2?

    Also, if you have high estrogen levels could this keep you from losing weight or keep you just from losing lower belly fat??

    Thanks
    How about tiny bit of Arimidex?
  29. yianni54's Avatar
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    Well, the last time I spoke with Dr. Crisler he said lets first try and lower your test. cyp from 100mg to 80mg and add in the DIM. Well, I did just that but I still have the itchy nipples and chest, water bloat, etc.

    We'll see what he decides this time? Thanks
  30. yianni54's Avatar
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    Here are my latest labs, also taken on a Thursday afternoon:


    This is at 80mg Test. Cyp (no HCG):

    Total Test: 682 Range 240-950
    Free Test %: 2.5 Range 2.0-4.8
    Free Test: 17.1 Range 9-30
    Bioavailable Test: 218 Range 83-257
    DHT: 52 Range 30-85
    Estradiol: 28 Range 10-45
    Progesterone: .320 Range .00-1.70

    Currently on 60mg Armour

    TSH: 1.180 Range .27-4.20
    Free T4: .801 Range .80-1.60
    Free T3: 3.1 Range 2.0-3.5
    SHBG: 26 Range 10-60

    1iu of GH/Day

    IGF-1 336 Range 117-329

    Please let me know your thoughts, this has become very frustrating to the point where I want to come off because it is affecting my psychology. Thanks
  31. KSman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post

    Please let me know your thoughts, this has become very frustrating to the point where I want to come off because it is affecting my psychology. Thanks
    In what ways?

    moody
    low energy
    low libido
    ED
    limited sexual performance
    brain fog/confusion
    irritable

    Numbers look ok, but some would take you to 100mg/wk. Are you injecting once per week and bottoming out? More frequent injections can help as well as HCG which creates a floor that T levels will not fall below... as well as improving mood for many and increasing T levels. Adding HCG can create a good improvement, but that will lead fade as E and SHBG levels catch up. I guess that I would error on the side of pushing all towards T+HCG+AI.

    I can't recall your history and dosing and have not re-read the thread to find out... but time is also an important factor. Has enough time passed to see where a therapy will take you, including the development of E side effects. From my personal experience, I feel that the window for responses to E increases and decreases [or T:E ratio changes] take at least 3 months to play out. Skin changes are 4-6 weeks. More E, nicer skin, less E, thinner and age more revealed. There is the effect of the E on the liver to change SHBG and that changes the whole game. I don't know what the time constant for that response is. The mental and sense of well being is probably all due to structural [at the molecular level] changes in the brain and thought pattern changes that slowly take place after that. One's attitude and positive or negative outlook will change the result during this time of change when patterns of thought are malleable/plastic. So your PMA [positive mental attitude] is also going to change the outcome. There is a window of opportunity for a bit of self-change.

    Study, learn, take control of your TRT so you are not a passive agent and feel good about feeling better some day. Turn your impatience and other negative feelings about this into motivations to make it work right and feel right. Not everything you need will come out of bottle or a syringe. So one half of what you need may be completely up to you. I guess that I am saying that part of your response to TRT is mental healing to recover from what low hormones did to you. If you feel like crap, take action and write it all down to discuss with your doc. Hopefully he will translate that into some insight about your hormone balances and corrective action.

    Also get after what it takes to improve your sex life if that is appropriate for you. That can be a new positive to improve your outlook.

    Your T:E ratios may not be right for you. There is always some trial and error in TRT. So one should not expect to get it all right in a short time frame.
  32. pmgamer18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    Here are my latest labs, also taken on a Thursday afternoon:


    This is at 80mg Test. Cyp (no HCG):

    Total Test: 682 Range 240-950
    Free Test %: 2.5 Range 2.0-4.8
    Free Test: 17.1 Range 9-30
    Bioavailable Test: 218 Range 83-257
    DHT: 52 Range 30-85
    Estradiol: 28 Range 10-45
    Progesterone: .320 Range .00-1.70

    Currently on 60mg Armour

    TSH: 1.180 Range .27-4.20
    Free T4: .801 Range .80-1.60
    Free T3: 3.1 Range 2.0-3.5
    SHBG: 26 Range 10-60

    1iu of GH/Day

    IGF-1 336 Range 117-329

    Please let me know your thoughts, this has become very frustrating to the point where I want to come off because it is affecting my psychology. Thanks
    How long have you been on the DIM and what kind are you using. I am finding that for some DIM does not work. Have you tried some Zinc/Copper when this first started for me this was the first thing I tried and it worked to keep my nipples from being sore and hard.
    Solaray Zinc & Copper 100 capsules, Solaray - Solaray Multiple Minerals 50% Off
    start at 2 a day then after 30 days go to one. You can also try a different brand of DIM I had good luck with this.
    PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM
    But before you try this add a tsp full of Oil when you take your DIM sometimes it gets killed in your belly. You E2 to SHBG shows you can bring E2 down some.
  33. yianni54's Avatar
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    I use a brand of DIM known as "Young Again", 200 mg per capsule. I take a total of 400mg/day and 1000mg TMG from Jarrow Formulas.

    I am definiteley feeling a crash toward the end of the week. I am on Dr. John's HCG protocol.

    How do Progesterone and thyroid look?

    I was taking 100mg/week IM and because of the nipple issues, Dr. John lowered me to 80mg/week. Since then my Estradiol actually increased from 25 to 28, and I have had a definite decrease in libido and morning wood.

    I asked Dr. John to give me an AI but he said he would first like to try a lower dose and DIM. That hasn't worked. Thanks
  34. KSman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    I use a brand of DIM known as "Young Again", 200 mg per capsule. I take a total of 400mg/day and 1000mg TMG from Jarrow Formulas.

    I am definiteley feeling a crash toward the end of the week. I am on Dr. John's HCG protocol.

    How do Progesterone and thyroid look?

    I was taking 100mg/week IM and because of the nipple issues, Dr. John lowered me to 80mg/week. Since then my Estradiol actually increased from 25 to 28, and I have had a definite decrease in libido and morning wood.

    I asked Dr. John to give me an AI but he said he would first like to try a lower dose and DIM. That hasn't worked. Thanks

    Sounds like you would do well lowering you E and injecting more often. The once a week T spike is thought to make E and SHBG worse relative to more frequent smaller injections.
  35. JanSz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    Here are my latest labs, also taken on a Thursday afternoon:


    This is at 80mg Test. Cyp (no HCG):

    Total Test: 682 Range 240-950
    Free Test %: 2.5 Range 2.0-4.8
    Free Test: 17.1 Range 9-30
    Bioavailable Test: 218 Range 83-257
    DHT: 52 Range 30-85
    Estradiol: 28 Range 10-45
    Progesterone: .320 Range .00-1.70

    Currently on 60mg Armour

    TSH: 1.180 Range .27-4.20
    Free T4: .801 Range .80-1.60
    Free T3: 3.1 Range 2.0-3.5
    SHBG: 26 Range 10-60

    1iu of GH/Day

    IGF-1 336 Range 117-329

    Please let me know your thoughts, this has become very frustrating to the point where I want to come off because it is affecting my psychology. Thanks
    You are Dr John's patient so do whatewer hi tells you to do, do it and nothing else. If he told you to use DIM ask him for product name and number of pills to take, do not make your own decision, there are many bad products out there. I am not sure if Indolplex is really the good one or the one you are actually taking from Young Again. Same with any other supplement he want you to take. I would like to know more why hi (Dr John) do not want you to use Arimidex. DIM is a catalyst, it does not change the amount of estrogen, its presence is conducive to better good/bad estrogen ratio. To reduce amount of estrodial you should take Arimidex. Since it looks like E2 is your main problem, I would test E2 monthly and do adjustments. E2 test at LabCorp when bought from LEF costs about $25. But since severity of your problems is a function of time from T shot that would tell me to switch to Tcreme.

    If decision was mine, as it is my arrangement with my current doctor, I would get tested per my long list.
    One reason, it contains over 10 different risk factors, that we know nothing about at this moment in your case. I would also get urine test from Rhein Labs and see the good/bad ratio, check if enough DIM is taken.

    I would try to get my suply of Testosterone steady, in your case, try twice weekly shots, if that do not do it I would change to Tcream (deal with extra DHT latter). There is a good possibility that your testosterone is too low, most of the time. You are doing a weekly shot and then going for a blood draw. I am not sure how that works with shots, but Androgel study show about 300ng/dL difference on daily applications. Androgel, so the blood test shows 682 at the time of the blood draw but other times (most of the week) you may have close to 382.
    Since you are taking HCG you may be producing native testosterone, the more of it the better. To figure out how much to add on you need good testing.
    I suspect the 100mg test you been taking may have been a proper dose, just split it and do twice weekly.

    From currently addressed area of health (if I want blood list shorter) I would test for
    Total Estrogen
    Estrodial (E2)
    Estrone
    Estradiol, Bioavailable
    Urine test from RheinLabs, check good/bad
    Progesterone
    Pregnenolone
    TotalTestosterone
    BioAvailableTestosterone
    DHT
    Prolactin
    Hematocrit


    You are 26.7% from top of your FreeT3 range of (2.0-3.5)
    =100-(3.1-2)/(3.5-2)*100
    you are ok there
    You could use some T4 supplement, you are right on the bottom of acceptable range.

    Do you have other problems that are not shown on your log?
    Good luck
  36. KSman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yianni54 View Post
    I use a brand of DIM known as "Young Again", 200 mg per capsule. I take a total of 400mg/day and 1000mg TMG from Jarrow Formulas.

    I am definiteley feeling a crash toward the end of the week. I am on Dr. John's HCG protocol.

    How do Progesterone and thyroid look?

    I was taking 100mg/week IM and because of the nipple issues, Dr. John lowered me to 80mg/week. Since then my Estradiol actually increased from 25 to 28, and I have had a definite decrease in libido and morning wood.

    I asked Dr. John to give me an AI but he said he would first like to try a lower dose and DIM. That hasn't worked. Thanks
    What does it cost per week for that amount of DIM? (The TMG is cheap I think.) Just wanting to price compare to 1mg of anastrozole per week.
  37. yianni54's Avatar
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    Jansz,

    Thanks for your time in replying. I will definiteley mention those tests to Dr. John. Which I am sure he is probably going to go in that direction. He is the best their is and I never question him.

    Hematocrit on my last labs is 45.5 Range 39.4-49.1

    I agree I felt WAY better at 100mg/week. Even though 80mg is not that much of a big difference I definiteley don't feel as good.

    What's stranger is at 100mg Test my Estradiol test was 25 on a Thursday. At 80mg my Estradiol was 28 on a Thursday?????

    Also, my libido and morning wood are gone. Either due to estogen or not enough T for me?

    I just wish the bloat and itchy nipples would go away. It starts on Monday (Sunday is shot day) and goes till Friday. My only relief is Saturday and Sunday. Not to mention I can't seem to lose weight/fat. I am dieting and training hard but nothing seems to work. Very frustrating.
  38. 1cc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    We're now trying a different testosterone ester.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Notice his symptoms worsen as serum androgen levels are rising.

    But so are estrogens. We need to take a look at the estrogen metabolites, a has laready been suggested.
    Cpeil2 and Dr. John,

    Did you come to any final conclusions regarding the issue that Cpeil2 is having? It would be good to know what is causing such a problem.
  39. cpeil2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1cc View Post
    Cpeil2 and Dr. John,

    Did you come to any final conclusions regarding the issue that Cpeil2 is having? It would be good to know what is causing such a problem.

    No we didn't. I lost patience with the process after my blood pressure topped out at 160/90 while on TRT.

    We did do a brief trial of T prop IM, but I couldn't tolerate it--respiratory symptoms.

    So, except for a couple of weeks on T prop, I haven't done any hormone replacement for over a year.


    My T level is fairly low (TT=239 (241-827) FT=6.9 (6.2-24.0)). E2 is also on the low side (15 (0-53)). So, I certainly don't have any E2-related symptoms, but I definitely have hypogonadal symptoms.

    The good news in all of this is that my BP is at a very healthy level - generally about 110/70.
  40. 1cc
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    My T level is fairly low (TT=239 (241-827) FT=6.9 (6.2-24.0)). E2 is also on the low side (15 (0-53)). So, I certainly don't have any E2-related symptoms, but I definitely have hypogonadal symptoms.
    I noticed on one of your earlier posts a long time ago that your DHT was low. Have you had DHT tested while on one of your failed TRT regimens? I am wondering whether you have a very low DHT conversion. DHT acts as an anti-aromatase, and may control Total E's naturally. I think, as Dr. John mentioned above, that this may have to do with Estrogen somehow, especially considering the symptoms. You may just be very sensitive to Total Estrogen being high.
  

  
 

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