TRT, Bloat and Itchy Nipples!!!! LABS
- 02-10-2007, 10:39 PM
TRT, Bloat and Itchy Nipples!!!! LABS
I have been on TRT for almost a year now. I am a patient of Dr. John's. . .
I am 29 and my last lab results (done on a Thursday afternoon) were as follows:
% Free Testosterone 3.3 2.0-4.8
Free Test 28.4 9-30ng/dl
Total Test 861 240-950
Bioavailable Test 370 83-257
SHBG 29 10-60NMOL/L
Estradiol 25 (range goes to 70)
My current protocol:
100mg Test Cyp. Every Sunday
1iu HGH per day
Ever since I have started TRT I have gained about 12lbs. It is mostly water and bloat. Most recently, the last month or so, I have noticed my chest and nipples have gotten extremely itchy, not sore but very itchy. Additionaly, last week I began Dr. John's HCG protocol. My nipples got even itchier. . .
I would like to know if this is gyno? Also, does everyone get this bloated when on TRT?
Also, I can't seem to lose weight at all. No matter how hard I try, I can't lose any weight. I train 4-6 times per week and have a clean diet low in carbs.
Do I have an estrogen problem even though my Estradiol is 25?
Dr. John says my Estradiol and SHBG are in range, but my symptoms are not indicative of being optimal.
I would like others to share their thoughts here. . .Dr. John will not let me try Arimidex as this may throw my other values out of whack, understandable. I will also be trying DIM and will lower my dosing of Test from 100 to 80mg to see if this makes a difference.
Any thoughts are very appreciated. Thanks
- 02-11-2007, 08:34 AM
Now you have to implement Dr's advice plus wait a month and half or little more and see if you have improved, which you most likely will.
What is your FreeT3
How long have you been on HGH, is this Dr J idea?
I was under impression that HGH is a last on the line, after you are optimized your adrenals, thyroid, test and estrogens.
May want to consider twice a week T injections or Tcream.
- 02-11-2007, 09:44 AM
Are you getting lumps?
Maybe get your progesterone checked?
02-11-2007, 09:53 AM
Thanks for your time in reading and replying. My Thyroid levels are good. I don't have the labs present but Dr. J says they are exactly where he wants them to be.
I forgot to mention my IGF-1 was 188 (126-382). It was Dr. J's idea, 1iu per day.
No lumps! Just itchy!
But what I have found is that the bloat is heavy on Monday, Tues., Wed., and then starts to decline on Friday, Sat. Sun. but then I do my shot on Sunday.
02-11-2007, 09:55 AM
You red lined my Estrogen which was at 25. Are you saying that this high or good when looking at the overall labs? Thanks
02-11-2007, 11:39 AM
when E2 is high we use DIM. But DIM does not directly affect E2, only indirectly. So it is a gray area. Plus Dr John openly admitted to some trade secrets. You are using DIM, so the question is about tuned dose of DIM.
BTW, what kind of DIM and why this kind and not another?
Over all it is hard to keep levels steady. Healthy person have hormones all over the place thruout the day, depending on his routine, he just have a good working regulatory system. With what we do we attempt to keep our hormones steady, that is the best what we can do, but most likely not optimal way.
Wonder if there is a little better way of regulating hormones or attempt at it?
02-11-2007, 11:43 AM
Why don't you try Tcream, steady levels, easy to apply, low cost. I apply it to my thigh.
How much you pay for HGH?
I just got XYZ catalog in a mail.
HGH Saisen Easy Click Pen 1iu $19.99
there are other less expensive and less convenient combinations.
I bought Armour from them.
02-11-2007, 07:38 PM
02-11-2007, 08:56 PM
The whole time. . .I searched for a doc and did my research and then I just decided to make the trip.
02-12-2007, 12:11 PM
My story's about the same as yours. Lab values were terrific, including E2, but I had a whole cluster of unpleasant symptoms - bloat, hot flashes, night sweats, wheezing, nipple discomfort, elevated blood pressure and heart rate.
I had a 24 hour urine done which revealed that my total E's were pretty high, even though E2 was fine.
Dr. John did allow me to try A'dex, which didn't help. In fact, if anything, I felt worse.
I cut back my weekly dose from 100 to 75 mg. and got some improvement in the symptoms. Then I switched from once weekly dosing to every three days, keeping the total weekly dose at 75 mg, which resulted in more improvement. However, the symptoms never completely went away, and the high blood pressure and elevated heart rate didn't improve at all.
Finally, when my BP topped out at 160/90, I decided I was going to have to give up on the TRT, at least temporarily.
02-12-2007, 01:00 PM
I also have elevated total Es and an E2 level of 20. Arimidex doesn't really help at all. I feel worse and have gotten BPH and constipation. I did a lot of research and found that the culprit may be found in the liver. Since your liver metabolises estrogen, an elevated total estrogen may indicate problems therein. I am beginning to use 400 mg of DIM per day, 60 mg of L-Opti Zinc and Hepatogen by Vitamin Research Products (VRP). Hepatogen contains TMG, Milk Thistle, NAC, ALA and many other essential nutirents to aid the liver. I have cut out alcohol altogether and I began drinking more water. Also, I began taking Detox Fiber by VRP, Digestive Enzymes with every meal and a probiotic. These supplements will aid in digestion, promote good bacteria in the intestines and assist with liver function. I began using these products three days ago and I already feel much better and am excited to see when I get my labs done again.
02-12-2007, 03:15 PM
I just ordered some DIM myself. I am hoping this will help with the bloat.
Did the Arimidex help with the bloat? Thanks
02-12-2007, 03:27 PM
02-17-2007, 11:52 AM
issue. Do you understand why I have been stressing importance of proper balance of liver pathway from the very start one of the most important things over looked by 99 % of the drs.
In your intiial labs did you get homocysteine levels checked? That may give you a clue to may be what is going on but again it goes back to bodys abaility to metabolise estrogens.
02-17-2007, 04:57 PM
This complicated case is worth following. I like the fact that Dr. John isn't giving up!
02-17-2007, 06:13 PM
One explanation for the link between estrogen dominance and allergies is that estrogen promotes the release of histamine, the chemical that is responsible for troublesome allergy symptoms such as nasal congestion, watery eyes, coughing, and wheezing.
Another explanation, which I’ll be discussing in greater detail in the next chapter, has to do with the relationship between progesterone and the adrenal hormone cortisol. Cortisol, which is made in the adrenal glands from progesterone, is the body’s natural anti-inflammatory hormone. In fact, synthetic drugs, commonly called “cortisone,” are sometimes prescribed for bronchial asthma, a severe allergic condition, because they mimic the anti-inflammatory action of the body’s own cortisol. Histamines also increases Nitric oxide which suppresses cortisol production so its amazing how everything is linked isn't it. And increasing nitric oxide suppresses the methione synthase which converts homocystein back into methione via methyl b-12/folate pathways and TMG helps can help this to a certain degree. This forces to use TMG and CBS pathways which are now over loaded
excess Estrogen -increases histmaines -increases NO - lowers cortisol - decreases thyroid- deactivates methioine synthase - undermethylation of liver - decreases methy b-12, folate (immune system, neurotranmistters imbalance) - decreases sam-e - fatty liver (endocrine disruption, binding problems of hormones to receptors) - lowers gluthione - increases cancer risk
02-17-2007, 08:53 PM
02-17-2007, 09:01 PM
02-19-2007, 09:40 AM
The following is from this link for FTM but still full of dam good info.
Hudson's Guide: FTM Testosterone Therapy and General Health
Edema refers to the abnormal buildup of fluid in the ankles, feet, and legs. It is usually painless. Testosterone is known to cause water and electrolyte retention (i.e., sodium, potassium, calcium, and inorganic phosphates), which can contribute to such swelling. Sometimes increasing daily water intake can reduce or end the problem.
02-27-2007, 07:43 PM
just curious, what kind of ester did you switch to?
03-01-2007, 06:42 PM
Changing the ester also changes the base oil. Test cyp is usually cotton seed oil. Test eth, I believe, is sesame seed oil. Perhaps when one changes esters and there is an improvement, it might be because of a sensitivity to the base oil. If the base oil causes a histamine reaction, perhaps taking benadryl would yield some interesting observations about water retention.
04-09-2007, 09:08 AM
Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this stuff is very interesting. My E2 is only slightly above where it should be, yet I am pretty sure I am getting symptoms of high E such as itchy chest, bloat and hot flushes. My libido is also still shot despite being on TRT and i get no morning wood at all. How is everyone else's libido with this?
Would Calcium D Glucarate help with this if it is bad estrogens recirculating in our system? As well as DIM of course.
How is everyones Liver function tests? If we had trouble conjugating, which I do, then billirubin should be elevated.
Did anyone have any improvements and did we find out any more about this topic?
04-09-2007, 10:32 AM
04-09-2007, 10:40 AM
Im on a 10% compounded T cream with 5% Chrysin to control E (because thats all I can get ATM), and DIM. I wasnt sure of the actual dose of DIM in Indolplex, but ive recently figured out that it is not enough - somthing like 70mg. So ive ordered one with a higher amount of DIM so I can aim for 300mg per day.
04-09-2007, 01:59 PM
04-09-2007, 02:07 PM
Who makes that cream.
Wonder if it actually works.
I remember, someplace LEF was saing that Chrysin need to be in company of Bioperine to make it work.
I take my Chrysin from LEF;
Super Miraforte With Max Strength Chrysin, 120 Caps
One tablet of Indolplex is 120mg
it contains 25% of DIM
that is 30mg
to get 300mg dose one needs 10 pills.
PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM
missing I3C here.
There is little discussion that ends up with 8 pills/day, here, they added I3C to Dr Zelig's type of DIM
Nature's Way DIM-Plus, 120 Tablets,Nature's Way - Nature's Way Branded Phytomedicines 40% Off
Nature's Way DIM-Plus
I use Dual-Action from LEF
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw, 60 Vegetarian Capsules
Each pill have 14 mg DIM
LEF recomends 1 pill per 160#, I have 160#, use 6 pills daily.
May be I should increase my dose, I am going for blood test soon.
300mg of DIM with 1000mg TMG originated (AFAIK) here:
MESO-Rx - View Single Post - I am on HRT with DIM...
04-17-2007, 09:36 PM
Update!!!!!!Itchy Nipples, Bloat and TRT
Just an update.
So I decreased my weekly dose to 80mg of test. I had my blood test again on a Thursday afternoon and this time E2 went from 25 to 28 and the range is up to 40. I still feel the itchy chest/nipples and bloat. I have been taking DIM and TMG.
Could the DIM and TMG have possibly increased E2?
Also, if you have high estrogen levels could this keep you from losing weight or keep you just from losing lower belly fat??
04-17-2007, 11:01 PM
04-18-2007, 06:22 AM
Well, the last time I spoke with Dr. Crisler he said lets first try and lower your test. cyp from 100mg to 80mg and add in the DIM. Well, I did just that but I still have the itchy nipples and chest, water bloat, etc.
We'll see what he decides this time? Thanks
04-21-2007, 09:31 AM
Here are my latest labs, also taken on a Thursday afternoon:
This is at 80mg Test. Cyp (no HCG):
Total Test: 682 Range 240-950
Free Test %: 2.5 Range 2.0-4.8
Free Test: 17.1 Range 9-30
Bioavailable Test: 218 Range 83-257
DHT: 52 Range 30-85
Estradiol: 28 Range 10-45
Progesterone: .320 Range .00-1.70
Currently on 60mg Armour
TSH: 1.180 Range .27-4.20
Free T4: .801 Range .80-1.60
Free T3: 3.1 Range 2.0-3.5
SHBG: 26 Range 10-60
1iu of GH/Day
IGF-1 336 Range 117-329
Please let me know your thoughts, this has become very frustrating to the point where I want to come off because it is affecting my psychology. Thanks
04-21-2007, 12:40 PM
limited sexual performance
Numbers look ok, but some would take you to 100mg/wk. Are you injecting once per week and bottoming out? More frequent injections can help as well as HCG which creates a floor that T levels will not fall below... as well as improving mood for many and increasing T levels. Adding HCG can create a good improvement, but that will lead fade as E and SHBG levels catch up. I guess that I would error on the side of pushing all towards T+HCG+AI.
I can't recall your history and dosing and have not re-read the thread to find out... but time is also an important factor. Has enough time passed to see where a therapy will take you, including the development of E side effects. From my personal experience, I feel that the window for responses to E increases and decreases [or T:E ratio changes] take at least 3 months to play out. Skin changes are 4-6 weeks. More E, nicer skin, less E, thinner and age more revealed. There is the effect of the E on the liver to change SHBG and that changes the whole game. I don't know what the time constant for that response is. The mental and sense of well being is probably all due to structural [at the molecular level] changes in the brain and thought pattern changes that slowly take place after that. One's attitude and positive or negative outlook will change the result during this time of change when patterns of thought are malleable/plastic. So your PMA [positive mental attitude] is also going to change the outcome. There is a window of opportunity for a bit of self-change.
Study, learn, take control of your TRT so you are not a passive agent and feel good about feeling better some day. Turn your impatience and other negative feelings about this into motivations to make it work right and feel right. Not everything you need will come out of bottle or a syringe. So one half of what you need may be completely up to you. I guess that I am saying that part of your response to TRT is mental healing to recover from what low hormones did to you. If you feel like crap, take action and write it all down to discuss with your doc. Hopefully he will translate that into some insight about your hormone balances and corrective action.
Also get after what it takes to improve your sex life if that is appropriate for you. That can be a new positive to improve your outlook.
Your T:E ratios may not be right for you. There is always some trial and error in TRT. So one should not expect to get it all right in a short time frame.
04-21-2007, 02:14 PM
Solaray Zinc & Copper 100 capsules, Solaray - Solaray Multiple Minerals 50% Off
start at 2 a day then after 30 days go to one. You can also try a different brand of DIM I had good luck with this.
PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM
But before you try this add a tsp full of Oil when you take your DIM sometimes it gets killed in your belly. You E2 to SHBG shows you can bring E2 down some.
04-21-2007, 03:45 PM
I use a brand of DIM known as "Young Again", 200 mg per capsule. I take a total of 400mg/day and 1000mg TMG from Jarrow Formulas.
I am definiteley feeling a crash toward the end of the week. I am on Dr. John's HCG protocol.
How do Progesterone and thyroid look?
I was taking 100mg/week IM and because of the nipple issues, Dr. John lowered me to 80mg/week. Since then my Estradiol actually increased from 25 to 28, and I have had a definite decrease in libido and morning wood.
I asked Dr. John to give me an AI but he said he would first like to try a lower dose and DIM. That hasn't worked. Thanks
04-21-2007, 04:08 PM
04-21-2007, 10:55 PM
If decision was mine, as it is my arrangement with my current doctor, I would get tested per my long list.
One reason, it contains over 10 different risk factors, that we know nothing about at this moment in your case. I would also get urine test from Rhein Labs and see the good/bad ratio, check if enough DIM is taken.
I would try to get my suply of Testosterone steady, in your case, try twice weekly shots, if that do not do it I would change to Tcream (deal with extra DHT latter). There is a good possibility that your testosterone is too low, most of the time. You are doing a weekly shot and then going for a blood draw. I am not sure how that works with shots, but Androgel study show about 300ng/dL difference on daily applications. Androgel, so the blood test shows 682 at the time of the blood draw but other times (most of the week) you may have close to 382.
Since you are taking HCG you may be producing native testosterone, the more of it the better. To figure out how much to add on you need good testing.
I suspect the 100mg test you been taking may have been a proper dose, just split it and do twice weekly.
From currently addressed area of health (if I want blood list shorter) I would test for
Urine test from RheinLabs, check good/bad
You are 26.7% from top of your FreeT3 range of (2.0-3.5)
you are ok there
You could use some T4 supplement, you are right on the bottom of acceptable range.
Do you have other problems that are not shown on your log?
04-22-2007, 12:00 AM
04-22-2007, 08:45 AM
Thanks for your time in replying. I will definiteley mention those tests to Dr. John. Which I am sure he is probably going to go in that direction. He is the best their is and I never question him.
Hematocrit on my last labs is 45.5 Range 39.4-49.1
I agree I felt WAY better at 100mg/week. Even though 80mg is not that much of a big difference I definiteley don't feel as good.
What's stranger is at 100mg Test my Estradiol test was 25 on a Thursday. At 80mg my Estradiol was 28 on a Thursday?????
Also, my libido and morning wood are gone. Either due to estogen or not enough T for me?
I just wish the bloat and itchy nipples would go away. It starts on Monday (Sunday is shot day) and goes till Friday. My only relief is Saturday and Sunday. Not to mention I can't seem to lose weight/fat. I am dieting and training hard but nothing seems to work. Very frustrating.
06-10-2007, 07:25 PM
06-10-2007, 08:35 PM
No we didn't. I lost patience with the process after my blood pressure topped out at 160/90 while on TRT.
We did do a brief trial of T prop IM, but I couldn't tolerate it--respiratory symptoms.
So, except for a couple of weeks on T prop, I haven't done any hormone replacement for over a year.
My T level is fairly low (TT=239 (241-827) FT=6.9 (6.2-24.0)). E2 is also on the low side (15 (0-53)). So, I certainly don't have any E2-related symptoms, but I definitely have hypogonadal symptoms.
The good news in all of this is that my BP is at a very healthy level - generally about 110/70.
06-11-2007, 03:23 AM
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