Let's See How Smart We All Are!!!
- 02-08-2007, 08:51 AM
Let's See How Smart We All Are!!!
I am one of Dr. John's consultation patients (he's advising my doc on what to do). While I await his response to my latest tests, I figured it would be interesting to see how smart we've all become through this process. Discuss my lab results, then I'll come back on here and let everyone know what Dr. John says. That way, we all can continue to learn how to tweak things when our numbers are a certain way. Quick background...test cyp injections 100mg/week. Tests taken 3 days after 5th injection.
Total test = 809 (up from 156) (241-827)
% Free = 3.6 (2.0-4.0)
Free = 29.1 (8-30)
DHT = 918.8 (155-553)
LH < 0.1 (1.5-9.3)
Prolactin = 7 (2-18)
TSH = 1.36 (.4-5.0)
T3 = 3.5 (2.4-4.2)
SHBG = 20 (11-80)
Cortisol = 15.7 (4.3-29)
FSH <0.3 (1.4-18.1)
Progesterone = 0.5 (0.3-1.2)
T4 = 1.35 (0.7-1.85)
Estradiol = 41 (6-50)
Please feel free to comment. Thanks and have a great day.
Last edited by mikandrea; 02-08-2007 at 03:21 PM. Reason: Added reference ranges
- 02-08-2007, 09:22 AM
- 02-08-2007, 10:00 AM
Sorry, I'm certainly not trying to offend anyone. I've learned so much from this page and thought it would be interesting to compare our knowledge of the tests (as patients) vs. what actually might be prescribed/interpreted by a doc. I thought it would especially be helpful to those with similar numbers, but working with MD's that do not know what to do. Please forgive me if I offended anyone, especially Dr. John...that was not my intention. My intention was to improve our knowledge. If my goal was not met, then please feel free to delete my post.
02-08-2007, 10:07 AM
02-08-2007, 10:13 AM
I see many items missing in your blood test, items that we usually discuss.
You may want to post the rest of your blood test to provide more complete picture.
FreeT3 and DHEAs would be a big items here.
Body fat and other personal history.
Hopefully you were having a blood drawn for the test while on stabilized routine.
Say no changes in routine for a minimum of a month.
With the glimpse you have provided I see:
1. extremely high DHT, wonder what you are going to do about it. Do not be shy, return the favor, I have DHT problem.
The believe on this board is to stay away from Proscar or Avodart, but I have not seen alternatives.
Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator
your FreeT=23.6 ng/dL=236pg/mL
BioavailableT=553 ng/dL =19.2nmol/l
your FreeT may be in range as Dr Shippen's range is 160-250
but your BAT is way too high if you believe this
there healthy men used as reference had
Have to put disclaimer here, the calculator I use is built on 1990 level of science and 1999 paper.
The FreeT and BAT level is based on 2006 science and calculations.
I wish I could pin down the desired BAT level to aim at while using the only available calculator.
I think BAT take precedence over FreeT, but for now we have a more familiarity with FreeT.
Edited. I should have added that the 2006 work claims that the 1999 way have an error of (1.5–2.2) times, which is major inacuracy. This (the 1999 way) is still much better than some of the tests for a FreeT that are currently in use.
If/when you lower your TotalT (possibly down to around 650) then your Estradiol should also get lower.
We aim at about 15 or range (10-30). E2 is big item when discussing erection problems.
I am working with my doctor to get my next blood test, after which I plan on consulting with Dr John.
So far I have list below. It will be done at Quest Diagnostics.
Complete metabolic Panel
Hepatic Function Panel
Free Testosterone (calculated)
Bio-available Testosterone (calculated)
sex hormone–binding globulin (SHBG), serum
FSH (3rd Generation)
Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH)
Free (T3) triiodothyroxine
SOMATOMEDIN C (IGF-1)
C-reactive protein (high-sensitivity)
Vitamin D, 1, 25-Dihydroxy
B12, selenium, zinc, copper
02-08-2007, 10:38 AM
I will speak to Dr. John. If he doesn't want my treatment posted, then I will certainly abide by his wishes. Yeah, the high DHT scares the hell out of me! That was all of my testing except CBC. The 2 areas that concern me are the E2 level and the DHT. I have a nice, full head of hair and want to keep it. I'm also concerned with the prostate issue. I'm very happy that my total test has jumped up, but still am not feeling "right". No morning erections at all (I think that's from the E2 being 41). I will continue to research the DHT issue and share any successes that I have. Again, I hope I didn't offend anyone (Dr. John). I think we're all on here to learn from one anyone and celebrate the successes when we have them. Hopefully, the fact that I get to work with the best in the biz, will enable me to share these successes with you all. Thanks again for being my textbook of information.
02-08-2007, 12:01 PM
02-08-2007, 12:44 PM
I (67yo) have a hair on my head and DHT=226 and enlarged prostate.
Erections and E2 are definitely linked.
But I think, there is a body condition that makes us more sensitive to its levels.
E2=41 is still quite within allowable range, but other (hormone?) levels may make it too high.
Dr John have something up his sleeve (I hope). On April 26-28, 2007 - Orlando, Florida
hi is going to talk about
Estrogen Metabolism and the Adult Male: The New Frontier of TRT Medicine.
Wish he was a little more verbose on this important topic, here on his board.
02-08-2007, 12:58 PM
02-08-2007, 01:08 PM
I'm making an assumption about the E2 beacuse, from what I've read, the goal is to keep E2 b/w 20-30. Thanks about the info. on DHT and hair loss. Still concerned about its affect on the prostate though. The other stats, I'm 37 years old, 205lbs. with 12% body fat. Thanks for the input everyone.
02-08-2007, 02:09 PM
02-08-2007, 02:16 PM
02-08-2007, 02:35 PM
02-08-2007, 02:37 PM
You Need reference ranges here BRO. Then I can get cracking
Number one blood should be drawn 48 hours to get peak time is your estrogen was that high on 3 rd day it was probably even higher the previous day and it was starting on its down swing (POSSIBLly) If you were to use HCG at this point it would blow your test levels through the roof as well as estrogen. Lowering the dosage of testosterone and adding in HCG could possible reduce amount of estrogen and also bring the boys back to life alittle bit. Since your cortisol looks fine, but free levels where not taken. Adding in HCG will feed other hormonal pathways to help create more of a balance between all hormones. As with dht may be lowering the test and adding HCG may also bring that down as well (new to this), but remember it take a good 4-5 weeks for body to hit a stable level of testosterone in the blood and then from there changes can be altered acordingly, Your thyroid is looking good as long as you feel good I would not screw with it. FT3 levels are perfectly fine and almost in the optimal range. Estrogen and testosterone I understand pretty well DHT is a whole other monster LOL. The excessive of estogen even though still in range is probably interferinf with the recepotrs in the brain to tell the it that is has enough testosterone so it would decrease the LH production and testosterone it self. People need to understand there are estrogen receptors all over your body that affected almost every nervous system functioin as well as your digestion as well. The human body is a marvelous piece of machinery ..
02-08-2007, 02:44 PM
02-08-2007, 03:21 PM
I added the reference ranges in my first post for those that requested it.
02-08-2007, 03:26 PM
Total T: good job
Free T: good
DHT: let Dr. John decide
LH & FSH: as expected: suppressed
Prolactin: no comment
SHBG: surprised it's not higher
Cortisol: what time of day was it?
Progesterone: I'm clueless
Estradiol: a bit high, but not surprising considering such high total T
Again: how do you feel?
02-08-2007, 04:09 PM
Thanks Musclepigg...some days are better than others. I feel great the day after my injection. However, by day 5 and 6, I have a lot of brain fog. I'm a physical therapist and I was having problems explaining a treatment today (I inject tomorrow). I have some nipple sensitivity on the left and still have not woke up with an erection yet. So, its up and down. But days 5&6 are definitely my roughest days. Thanks for the comments...they truly are appreciated. I will continue to learn everytime I read any of the posts.
02-08-2007, 04:47 PM
obviously you want tot get hCG up and running. Reasons Im sure your aware of.
E2 is way to high. You know that. It should be half of what it is.
Frequent injects, EOD, will eliminate the day 5-6 crashes.
I still do not understand why anyone would ever opt for once per week injects. EOD, or at the very least, every 3 days.
I can PM you a link for cheap arimidex.
02-09-2007, 09:12 AM
Previously 7.5gram of Androgel.
Only when I reduced Androgel from 10 gram to 7.5 and increased my DIM, I got erections under control.
Tcream is a way less expensive than Androgel, and easier to apply.
With T injections is not possible to get steady T level in the blood.
Now, with my changed schedule I am fishing again for the right doses.
Too much T
Too much E2
02-09-2007, 09:17 AM
Yeah, I was on Androgel 5g/day x 2 weeks and my test lowered from 277 to 156. I think that I was a non-absorber!!! I feel a ton better on the injections, even though things are bad the last 2 days before the next injection. Regarding the EOD protocol, I will explore it if necessary, but only when my numbers get in check (and with Dr. John's approval at that time). Then, I could truly judge the difference in 1x/week vs. EOD.
02-09-2007, 09:30 AM
Problem with Dim it contains calcium carbonate which for people on thryoid medicine can be a big problem. I tried 2 DIM at night time but nothing, but I went to BID and was much better just have to space it accordingly due to thyroid.
02-09-2007, 09:50 AM
When I first started, with out realizing it, I was spilling lots of gel on the bathroom carpet. The other possibility, there is a time, on beginning, when you balls are getting shut, so the only testosterone you have is from what gets thru the skin. Takes few weeks probably more to get to stable condition.
Thyroid problems, IIRC, may cause absorption problems. Another reason to tackle thyroid and adrenals first.
With injections from what I hear, they have to be frequent.
02-09-2007, 10:05 AM
02-09-2007, 08:47 PM
Thanks Dr. John,
I look forward to your help. Hope to hear from you very soon. I'm anxious to see what you think (more than you could imagine). Sorry if I mislead anyone...completely unintentional.
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