Exerpts from Dr. Braverman's newly released book., Serotonin and the pauses.
- 01-12-2007, 03:00 PM
Exerpts from Dr. Braverman's newly released book., Serotonin and the pauses.
In his new book Dr. B. writes and I quote :
''A lack of serotonin will often cause depression and trigger the onset of other pauses. A lack of serotonin will :
1*Accelerate calcification, leading to osteopause.
2*Lower your sex drive, trigerring menopause and andropause.
3*Lower your testosterone, leading to andropause.
4*Lower your estrogen, progesterone, and triggering menopause
5*Weaken your immune system, leading to immunopause.
6*Accelerate skin aging or wrinkles and frown lines, triggering dermatopause.''
Now, the reason I'm posting this is I find confusing statements 2 and 3.
SSRI's inhibit the re-uptake of serotonin leading to higher Serotonin in the synaptic cleft. SSRI's have been used to treat depression, and their use have been linked to sexual dysfunction, namely inability to ejaculate, and lower sex drive.
Now can someone more knowledgeable then I explain to me how can serotonin lower one's sex drive, and lower one's testosterone, because it doesn't make sense to me as per the above regarding SSRI's use and side-effects.
The only reason I can see off the top of m head is that low serotonin increased percieved stress, and stress isn't conducive to a healthy sex drive.
But still I need explanation for the above quote from Dr. B.
Any thoughts ?
- 01-13-2007, 11:18 AM
Originally Posted by Dr. John
Exactly my point Dr. John--to me it doesn't make any sense, because of the SSRI's induced loss of sex drive and impotence. It would have been best if Dr. Braverman had linked that statement to scientific reference at the end of his book, for those who wish to know more about the likely mechanism.
This statement of his, left me quite mixed up to say the least.
- 01-13-2007, 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by Dr. John
I spent the whole evening yesterday reading Marianco's postings on Meso, and there's no such mention that serotonin can cause low T. A little serotonin can help libido by decreasing percieved stress though, but too much and you lose it all. GABA is more relavant because of the anxiety factor, or so it seems. But dopamine is reallly what has the most impact on sex drive neurotransmitters wise. I would tend to trust Dr. Marianco way more than Dr. Braverman on this. Marianco doesn't seem to me to be about Marketing, he's all about making his patient feel right.
That's the feeling I get from his postings, without really knowning him in real life.
01-13-2007, 11:53 AM
Do you know of other such trustworthy places as Pubmed, and Scirus for scientific literature searching ?
01-13-2007, 12:12 PM
I so very much agree with what you've just written Dr. John. Marianco is indeed so much appreciated by me and others. Like you said, I bow to this man for logging on to the forums in the evening after a hard day's work at is clinic. It's admirable of him to do so. No way Dr. Braverman would ever do that, well he does on his radio show on Sunday evening, however the whole thing is a 60 minutes advertisement for his clinic, where he constantly tell people to make an appointment, as they're booked up for the next two months. I've never seen any physician as expensive as Dr. B so far. Again, I prefer not to go into details publicly, but I know much about how things go about there, because I went last years and spent two days there. Let's just say that the billing department experience was so unpleasant. One could really feel it's so much about the money.Originally Posted by Dr. John
Anyway, back to Dr. Marianco : I really admire what he's done, seeing the many postings on the board, this translates into so many hours spent online. You too Dr. John deserve to be praised, as you've spent and continue to spend considerable time on various boards.
No doubt money is important in today's world--we all need it, and a lot of it as the cost of living keeps going up. I have nothing wrong with a physician who likes money, cause obviously when you take up medicine, you know for a fact that you're going to make some. I don't mind that at all as far as I'm concerned as long as the Dr. I'm seeing has his patient's well being in mind as much as the money.
I can tell you right today, that I'm not ever setting foot again in Dr. Braverman's office.
Again I tip my hat off to you and all of the other M.D.'s who spent countless hours on this boards, MESO etc....that's dedication.
01-13-2007, 12:14 PM
I agree. I take it that Pubmed, and Scirus are amongs the best free-access online scientific literature database then, then Google. Indeed one can find a lot Googling.Originally Posted by Dr. John
01-13-2007, 12:34 PM
I wanted to add this : I don't doubt Dr. Braverman's medical skills, cause no doubt he's an M.D. but his being after the money so much, can turn off people like me. And if you wonder why (but I don't think that you do) I'm saying this, consider the following :
When I walked in his clinic the first morning, they handed me forms to fill out--so far so good, then I had a physical, and then I was taken straight to the billing department. I'd told the billing department twice on the phone that I couldn't go over $3000, because I was paying out of pocket, but they totally ignored that, and were pressurizing me into taking more tests--it took between 10-15 minutes of holding my ground to see the end of this, and even then, they managed to get me to go up by $500. However, it was the first and only time. Then I had a few phone consults, during which I thought I would have the chance to speak directly with Dr. Braverman. However out of the 20 minute spent on the phone 15 if not more is spent with his medical assistant, and then you speak to him.
Enough said, but what I said is true, honest to God !
01-13-2007, 12:55 PM
1: Ann Clin Psychiatry. 2000 Sep;12(3):171-3. Links
Reduced testosterone level in a venlafaxine treated patient.Bell S, Shipman M.
We report on a patient with a low testosterone level which occurred during treatment with venlafaxine. The testosterone level increased when the medication was discontinued. Possible clinical correlation with amelioration of paraphilia is discussed.
PMID: 10984008 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Fluoxetine treatment and testosterone levels.Bell S, Shipman M, Bystritsky A, Haifley T.
Private practice, Arcadia, CA, USA. [email protected]
BACKGROUND: Two published case studies have reported SRI/SNRI-associated low testosterone levels. Apathy and low testosterone, observed during venlafaxine treatment in one report, both resolved upon venlafaxine discontinuation. No studies have investigated the effect of chronic SRI treatment on human testosterone levels.As decreased testosterone has several negative health effects, we conducted a pilot study investigating the effect of fluoxetine treatment on testosterone levels. METHODS: Fourteen depressive disorder patients in good health (BDI = 15) were studied. In addition, 4 non-depressed patients were studied. Testosterone levels were drawn, and an apathy questionnaire (under development, not yet validated) was administered at intake.Fluoxetine was provided (10 mg/day for 7 days then 20 mg/day). To measure outcome, a follow-up testosterone level was drawn after 1 month's treatment. RESULTS: Eleven depressed, and 3 non-depressed, patients completed the study. While there were large differences-both increases and decreases-in some individuals' testosterone levels after fluoxetine treatment, for the study population as a whole, there was no relationship (depressed patients, p = 0.4; non-depressed patients, p 0.3) between fluoxetine treatment and testosterone levels.In patients with BDI = 20, testosterone levels at intake were highly associated with intake apathy levels (p = 0.0033). CONCLUSIONS: Further, larger, studies correlating changes in testosterone levels during SRI treatment with treatment response, apathy levels and possibly sexual dysfunction seem indicated.
PMID: 16517449 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
01-13-2007, 12:55 PM
He sounds like he's covering all of his bases, which in of itself leads to question the results, as there is no "catch all" in mood modualtion.Originally Posted by Chip Douglas
I have never understood serotonin to be related to sex "drive"
Perhaps he means that a person in a foul mood is less likely t o seek sexual pleasure?
Serotonin is more commonly related to congnitive brain functions. Maybe the more clearly we think the more actively we seek sex?
There are theories that suggest that all depression is related to sexual mechanisms. However most studies do not show "sexual release" to be a cure for depression. It is more related to the whole "thrill of the chase" sequence, as setting goals and actively pursuing happiness seems to work best for me.
Chemically speaking; testosterone and Dopergenic chemicals have a much more direct relationship to the actual "llibido"
01-13-2007, 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by anabolicrhino
I agree with what you said above, that maybe individuals with low mood, and unhappy won't seek any sexuality--Mood is indeed an important factor for sure with regards to sex. Howeve this theory, I'd like to find scientific substantiation for, to prove Dr. B right. I cannot even begin to tell you how I dislike such claims made in books, with no scientific back-up in the addendum. I've already searched Google and Pubmed, and so far, all I have found is proof that SSRI's or serotonin leads to lower T levels and sexual dysfunctiions. Like we didn't know that already.
01-13-2007, 01:08 PM
This is the closest I've found with regards to SSRI's and sex drive, but those don't represent a majority.
Paroxetine-associated spontaneous sexual stimulation.Pae CU, Kim TS, Lee KU, Kim JJ, Lee CU, Lee SJ, Lee C, Paik IH.
Department of Psychiatry, Kangnam St Mary's Hospital, Seoul, Korea. [email protected]
The sexual side-effects of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors have been widely accepted and clinicians should only prescribe these agents for the treatment of premature ejaculation in the real clinical practice. We recently experienced three cases of paroxetine-associated sexual stimulation in the outpatient clinic. Because there is little information in the existing literature on this issue, we report three female cases who developed frequent spontaneous orgasm and increased libido during paroxetine treatment.
PMID: 16192845 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
01-13-2007, 01:14 PM
Disinhibition of libido: an adverse effect of SSRI?Greil W, Horvath A, Sassim N, Erazo N, Grohmann R.
Department of Psychiatry, University of Munich, Nussbaumstr. 7, D-80336 Munich, Germany. [email protected]
BACKGROUND: The article focuses on adverse drug reactions (ADR) to selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI) concerning libido and sexual behaviour: cases of disinhibition of libido observed at the Psychiatric Hospital of Kilchberg near Zurich are described. METHOD: Within the scope of a drug safety program, the physicians of the hospital are regularly asked about severe and unexpected events under drug treatment. RESULTS: During remission of depression, five outpatients noticed an increase of libido experienced as strange to them, i.e. preoccupation with sexual thoughts, first appearance of promiscuity, of unsafe sexual intercourse, and of excessive pursuit of pornography, respectively, during administration, change in dose or discontinuation of SSRI. DISCUSSION: The case studies suggest that SSRI treatment might be associated with increase and disinhibition of libido. The phenomena are discussed as a "selective switch" into partly manic symptomatology or an induction of mixed states with prevailing sexual symptoms.
PMID: 11223111 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
01-13-2007, 01:16 PM
a last one.
Depression and sexual desire.Phillips RL Jr, Slaughter JR.
Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Missori-Columbia School of Medicine, 65212, USA.
Decreased libido disproportionately affects patients with depression. The relationship between depression and decreased libido may be blurred, but treating one condition frequently improves the other. Medications used to treat depression may decrease libido and sexual function. Frequently, patients do not volunteer problems related to sexuality, and physicians rarely ask about such problems. Asking a depressed patient about libido and sexual function and tailoring treatment to minimize adverse effects on sexual function can significantly increase treatment compliance and improve the quality of the patient's life.
PMID: 10969857 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
01-13-2007, 01:29 PM
This just occured to me :
One of the consequence of low Serotonin is decreased sleep quality, and less deep stage sleep if I recall correctly can adversely affect Testosterone levels. There's a passage in his book about sleep restoring Serotonin tone. I think that later on I'll add it to this post.
This is an interesting discussion.
01-13-2007, 01:31 PM
However the point is moot, cause that still doesn't explain the so-called link between serotonin/andropause.
Also M.D's such as Dr. B will usually address low serotonin states by writing out a script for SSRI's.
01-13-2007, 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by Dr. John
I more than agree with you, as the first and foremost reason I met with Dr. B was because of a low sex drive, and my my sex drive is fine then my mood improves much as well.
01-13-2007, 02:05 PM
01-13-2007, 02:40 PM
Let me (us) know in the event you find something closely related to the subject of this thread.Originally Posted by Dr. John
Have a nice day Dr. John........and thanks !
01-13-2007, 10:52 PM
Just off the top of my head, but doesn't dopamine and norephi raise libido and T levels? So increasing Serotonin too much will cause an imbalance thus leading to lower libido and T levels? I could be wrong but just a guess.
01-13-2007, 11:30 PM
I dont like docs that overcharge....but with that being said I am reading Dr Bravermans book "The Edge".......I am just trying to get a basic understanding of brain chemistry.
Would that be a good start...if not, what is better?
01-14-2007, 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by magic8989
I know that too much serotonin will lower dopamine, and lower dopamine in turn increases prolactin, and this last IIRC inhibits gonadotrophins, leading to lower T levels.
01-14-2007, 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by spinn
I asked someone about brain chemistry self-help book references/titles. In a few days I may be able to share a few titles.
01-15-2007, 10:00 AM
One possible method how low serotonin could cause low testesterone levels is that low serotonin levels will cause an increase in cortisol levels for a specific amount of time this will reduce your plummet your dhea levels and cause testosterone production to lower due to low dhea levels.Originally Posted by Chip Douglas
Another way lower serotonin can cause low testosterone is that low sertomim levels will also lower your melatonin levels which will also increase cortisol production at night time which will cause you to get interrupted sleep and with out proper sleep yourr homrones can not regulate and balance. Another theory is thaat cortiosl will also eat up your antioxident supply of zinc mag, b-6 with out this lh can not be produced and testosterone leels plummet. Low sertonin = low melatonin = increaed glutamate = elevated cortisol = increased free radicals depleted gluthioine = increase stress on liver= endocrine imbalnaces (thyroid, adrenals, testosterone) and so the story goes
01-15-2007, 11:14 AM
Well i am one of those men Hidden infections and lazy drs just wanting to stick a person on paxil instead of looking for simple hypothryoidism due to secondary adrenal fatigue from dieting down from a show and then a week later getting infected from contaminate sushi. Endo toxins from the bacterial caused leaky gut and toxic liver over load (phase 2 congugation altered) shot lead to estrogen dominace/ fatty liver/adrenal fatigue/wilsons syndrome. This was all from a simple improperly treated infection that basic caused body sepsis and started my search for answers and over 3 years of research of chinese, indian, traditional medicine, autism, aids, MS, cancer living in the gov't databases to further understand the human body, Funny in past year Merc came out with a "drug" that is a natural supplement that can actually prevent cancer by 60-80% but they have not clue about they have one of the most preventative keys to depression, diabetes, liver dyfunction, cancer right under there noses, they need to add 2 more things to make it complete. Actually in next year i hopefully get together with a few drs and present to The mayoclinic have metaoblic testing can be done to show hidden road blocks into correction of illnesses.Originally Posted by Dr. John
01-15-2007, 11:55 AM
I too find those above explanation quite interesting, however I find that hard to believe. Don't get me wrong, I most definately don't say this out of meanness, but it's just that I'd like to see more scientific backup.
If you can provide more details, I'll be happy to read them for sure, and who knows it may very well be true, as I don't pretend to know it all.
01-15-2007, 12:21 PM
you asked for it lets tak an example candida that produces ethanol alchol common refered to as wood grain LOL
stage 1 stres stimulates glutamate and NMDA receptors
Glutamate-hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis interactions: implications for mood and anxiety disorders.
Is really not rocket science
cortisol stimulates glutamate and vice versa your pass pedal is full throttle and your break pads serotinin/gaba/acteylcholine are warn out. if you want to get technical there if cortisol levels go 2 high there is an enzyme that diverts tyrptopha from making serotonin its called tryptophan pyrrolase hence you get low serotonin and then all the lovely symptoms of depression start to surface. Dr manico already made references how you need serotnin for t-3 and vice versa. Studying chinese medicine you learn meridians and how everything reverts back to the liver. Techincally we view the heart as the core of our energy, but in relaity its the liver and by balancing out liver pathways stress reducing, gut/brain interations we can over come and prevent alot of illness. Majority of people treated in acupunture in Us come from liver congestion (hence where my resarch and first focus began). Now pioneers of orthomolecular medicine are finally starting to see how these people where correct over 5,000 years ago. One of there main reasoning bioliogoically this happens is western culture is depleted of gluthione and with out gluthione you are wide open to majority of disease (including hypothyroid) reason being with out gluthione you do not absorb liver glycogen and there fore liver conversion of t4 to t3 gets hindered. If you look at the liver/brain/gut/adrenal function and throroughly understand the biochemistry behind them and how they affect one another then you will see the beuty behind it
Methylation --> improved production of serotonin precursors in liver (methyl transferases) ---> decreased depression, potential upregulation of 5 HT receptors, ---> increased sertonin--> improved TRH/TSH --> improved thyroxine production and receptor upregulation ----> improved energy efficiency
01-15-2007, 12:33 PM
Would you be so kind as to PM me ? I think I need to look into this some more, and in details. Your story is interesting. If you cannot PM me via this forum, simply to go MESO and PM chip douglas.
I want to better understand what you understand.
01-15-2007, 12:58 PM
you want to understand the human bodyOriginally Posted by Chip Douglas
Autism: An Overview and Theories on its Causes
Right now my gf sister has retts syndrome which IMO was misdiagnosed because retts is a genetic disease she tested negative. I spoke to GF and think that her mother was poisoned by a family member which would explain all the classic signs of strychne poisoning or some similar toxin on the nervous system. I am goiing to get more evasive testing to find out what is going on with her. She is on her final days so they have nothing to loose...
I am on ironmagazine hardasnails1973
01-19-2007, 08:05 PM
I did get some titles, but they're neurology and neurophamacology textbooks. They might not be of much help here.Originally Posted by Dr. John
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