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    Avoiding excess conversion of testosterone into estradiol during testosterone treatme


    Now, this is hot hot.
    Does anybody have any details ???

    http--------://www.euromedicom.com/index.php?rub=2c&c=2&num=10

    Euromedicom - Promoting Science for tomorrow

    AMWC 2007 Anti-Aging Medicine World Congress
    Friday March 23
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Testosterone treatment against coronary heart disease EUGENE SHIPPEN (USA)

    Avoiding excess conversion of testosterone into estradiol during testosterone treatment EUGENE SHIPPEN (USA)

    Vitamin D: Anti-cancer and immunologic effects EUGENE SHIPPEN (USA)

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    Or is it as simple as stated here:
    http://www.growyoungandslim.com/arti...bf5972cfea17c7
    "I
    would propose, the problem is
    high estrogen levels in the
    prostate
    . We need testosterone
    and DHT for healthy prostate
    function. We must use Beta
    Sistosterol to enhance prostate
    function and use DIM to reduce
    estrogen levels in the prostate
    ."

    Medication have a hard time to penetrate into prostate.
    I guess they claim that DIM reduces estrogen in prostate, other AI's do not or not as much??
    I had about 7 prostate biopsies, not really that bad as it sounds.
    Wonder if prostate injections with AI would make a difference??
    ============================== ==========
    So, the questiom may have been already answered by our Dr. John on
    01-08-2007, 11:16 PM
    testosterone cream V.S sustanon which is easier on your hair

    and I just have to figure out what and how much to take, specifically, brand name number of pills, etc, all those little details.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz
    Or is it as simple as stated here:
    http://www.growyoungandslim.com/arti...bf5972cfea17c7
    "I
    would propose, the problem is
    high estrogen levels in the
    prostate
    . We need testosterone
    and DHT for healthy prostate
    function. We must use Beta
    Sistosterol to enhance prostate
    function and use DIM to reduce
    estrogen levels in the prostate
    ."

    Medication have a hard time to penetrate into prostate.
    I guess they claim that DIM reduces estrogen in prostate, other AI's do not or not as much??
    I had about 7 prostate biopsies, not really that bad as it sounds.
    Wonder if prostate injections with AI would make a difference??
    ============================== ==========
    So, the questiom may have been already answered by our Dr. John on
    01-08-2007, 11:16 PM
    testosterone cream V.S sustanon which is easier on your hair

    and I just have to figure out what and how much to take, specifically, brand name number of pills, etc, all those little details.

    Based on references from pmgamer and others, you may try this. Search the boards and you'll find more info. I am patiently awaiting my first shipment.

    PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM which can be found at www. ritecare .com

    Hope this helps!
    Brian
    •   
       

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    wouldnt stinging nettle root do the same?-----------------------Nettle
    About 90% of testosterone is produced by the testes; the remainder is produced by the adrenal glands. Tes-tosterone functions as an aphrodisiac hormone in brain cells and as an anabolic hormone in the development of bone and skeletal muscle. But testosterone that becomes bound to serum globulin is not available to cell receptor sites and fails to induce a libido effect. It is therefore desirable to increase levels of "free tes-tosterone" in order to ignite sexual arousal in the brain.

    As discussed already, a hormone that controls levels of free testosterone is called SHBG. When testosterone binds to SHBG, it loses its biological activity and becomes known as "bound testosterone," as opposed to the desirable "free testosterone." As men age past age 45, SHBG's binding capacity increases almost dramatically--by 40% on average--and coincides with the age-associated loss of libido.

    Some studies show that the decline in sexual interest with advancing age is not always due to the amount of testosterone produced, but rather to the increased binding of testosterone to globulin by SHBG. This explains why some older men who are on testosterone replacement therapy do not report a long-term aphrodisiac effect. That is, the artificially administered testosterone becomes bound by SHBG and is not bioavailable to cellular receptor sites where it would normally produce a libido-enhancing effect.

    It should be noted that the liver also causes tes-tosterone to bind to globulin. This liver-induced binding of testosterone is worsened by the use of sedatives, antihypertensives, tranquilizers, and alcoholic beverages. The overuse of drugs and alcohol could explain why some men do not experience a libido-enhancing effect when consuming drugs and plant-based aphrodisiacs. An interesting review entitled "How Desire Dies" (Nature, 381/6584, 1996) discusses how frequently prescribed drugs, such as beta-blockers and antidepressants, cause sexual dysfunction. Prescription drugs of all types have been linked to inhibition of libido.

    Logically, one way of increasing libido in older men would be to block the testosterone-binding effects of SHBG. This would leave more testosterone in its free, sexually activating form.

    A highly concentrated extract from the nettle root provides a unique mechanism for increasing levels of free testosterone. European research has identified constituents of nettle root that bind to SHBG in place of testosterone, thus reducing SHBG's binding of free testosterone (309-313). As the authors of one study stated, these constituents of nettle root "may influence the blood level of free, i.e., active, steroid hormones by displacing them from the SHBG binding site."

    The prostate gland also benefits from nettle root. In Germany, nettle root has been used as a treatment for benign prostatic hyperplasia (enlargement of the prostate gland) for decades. A metabolite of testosterone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulates prostate growth, leading to enlargement. Nettle root inhibits the binding of DHT to attachment sites on the prostate membrane.

    Nettle extracts also inhibit enzymes such as 5-alpha reductase that cause testosterone to convert to DHT. It is the DHT metabolite of testosterone that is known to cause benign prostate enlargement, excess facial hair, and hair loss at the top of the head.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    For those in The States, we'll be doing this again in Orlando, FL in April.

    I'm looking forwad to having lunch with Dr. Shippen again while there. Last year we had to go up to my room in order to have a quiet conversation about ideas.

    In Las Vegas, due to Dr. Shippen's and my schedules, the only time we had a chance to talk was while walking through the Venetian, as he was on his way to a taxi. I carried his bags for him, as he had his hands full of various supplements he just picked up (gratas, of course) while we were at Nick Delgado's booth in the Exhibition Hall a few minutes earlier.

    For anyone who missed the point, that's right: I AM DR. SHIPPEN'S BAG BOY.
    Is the job of tying shoe laces of BAG BOY stil open, I want it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Dr. Shippen gave this talk in Chicago, last July. It was GREAT.

    I am working out a deal to make these lectures available on this Forum (another first for us here at AM!) for a nominal fee. You'll be able to see, and hear, the lectures we present, with the actual slides open in another window. Anyone interested?
    Definitely YES.
    If possible with material to keep, for further review and study.

    Also Dr. Shippen's DVD's from Las Vegas, and his other on topic printed or media material.
    ----------------------------------
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    I am working out a deal to make these lectures available on this Forum (another first for us here at AM!) for a nominal fee. You'll be able to see, and hear, the lectures we present, with the actual slides open in another window. Anyone interested?
    I'm interested and would like to hear more about this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    There are several flaws in this post.

    It doesn't matter how much T is bound to SHBG, as I monitor same, and titrate dose to effect. This post instead should refer to UNTREATED men, and describes the effects of increasing SHBG levels as we age. But I overcome that.

    And as we now know, DHT is not the culprit in prostate morbidity. Estrogen is.

    "Binding capacity" of SHBG actually refers to the amount of SHBG, not its particular affinity. If SHBG actually gets better at binding T as we age, I would like to know that.
    ----------All Im trying to say is--If you use outside source of test or not that stinging nettle can 1]raise natural test 2]is best for all prostate issues---including removing estrogen from prostate ----------------------------------------------------------



    The effect of extracts of the roots of the stinging nettle (Urtica dioica) on the interaction of SHBG with its receptor on human prostatic membranes.

    Hryb DJ, Khan MS, Romas NA, Rosner W Department of Medicine, St. Luke's/Roosevelt Hospital Center, New York, N.Y. 10019. Planta Med 1995 Feb;61(1):31-2

    Extracts from the roots of the stinging nettle (Urtica dioica) are used in the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia. The mechanisms underlying this treatment have not been elucidated. We set out to determine whether specific extracts from U. dioica had the ability to modulate the binding of sex hormone-binding globulin to its receptor on human prostatic membranes. Four substances contained in U. dioica were examined: an aqueous extract; an alcoholic extract; U. dioica agglutinin, and stigmasta-4-en-3-one. Of these, only the aqueous extract was active. It inhibited the binding of 125I-SHBG to its receptor. The inhibition was dose related, starting at about 0.6 mg/ml and completely inhibited binding at 10 mg/ml.






    Effects of stinging nettle root extracts and their steroidal components on the Na+,K(+)-ATPase of the benign prostatic hyperplasia.

    Hirano T, Homma M, Oka K Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Tokyo College of Pharmacy, Japan. Planta Med 1994 Feb;60(1):30-3

    The effects of organic-solvent extracts of Urtica dioica (Urticaceae) on the Na+,K(+)-ATPase of the tissue of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) were investigated. The membrane Na+,K(+)-ATPase fraction was prepared from a patient with BPH by a differential centrifugation of the tissue homogenate. The enzyme activity was inhibited by 10(-4)-10(-5) M of ouabain. The hexane extract, the ether extract, the ethyl acetate extract, and the butanol extract of the roots caused 27.6-81.5% inhibition of the enzyme activity at 0.1 mg/ml. In addition, a column extraction of stinging nettle roots using benzene as an eluent afforded efficient enzyme inhibiting activity. Steroidal components in stinging nettle roots, such as stigmast-4-en-3-one, stigmasterol, and campesterol inhibited the enzyme activity by 23.0-67.0% at concentrations ranging from 10(-3)-10(-6) M. These results suggest that some hydrophobic constituents such as steroids in the stinging nettle roots inhibited the membrane Na+,K(+)-ATPase activity of the prostate, which may subsequently suppress prostate-cell metabolism and growth.






    The inhibiting effects of Urtica dioica root extracts on experimentally induced prostatic hyperplasia in the mouse.

    Lichius JJ, Muth C Institut fur Pharmazeutische Biologie, Philipps-Universitat, Marburg, Germany. Planta Med 1997 Aug;63(4):307-10

    Extracts of stinging nettle roots (Urtica dioica L. Urticaceae) are used in the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). We established a BPH-model by directly implanting an urogenital sinus (UGS) into the ventral prostate gland of an adult mouse. Five differently prepared stinging nettle root extracts were tested in this model. The 20% methanolic extract was the most effective with a 51.4% inhibition of induced growth.















    Aromatase inhibitors from Urtica dioica roots

    Gansser D.; Spiteller G. Lehrstuhl Organische Chemie 1, Universitat Bayreuth, NW I, Universitatsstrasse 30,D-95440 Bayreuth Germany Planta Medica (Germany) 1995, 61/2 (138-140)

    Methanolic extracts of stinging nettle (Urtica dioica L.) roots were investigated for aromatase inhibition. Enzyme inhibition was detected only after appropriate chromatographic separation. Inhibitory effects on aromatase could be demonstrated in vitro for a variety of compounds belonging to different classes. The following compounds developed weak to moderate activity: secoisolariciresinol (1), oleanolic and ursolic acid (2 and 3), (9Z,11E)-13-hydroxy-9,11-octadecadienoic acid (4), and 14-octacosanol (5). Inhibitory effects on aromatase have been known to date neither for pentacyclic triterpenes nor for secondary fatty alcohols. The potential physiological significance of the above findings is discussed. Compound 5 is a previously unknown constituent of plants.





    Effects of stinging nettle root extracts and their steroidal components on the Nasup +,Ksup +-ATPase of the benign prostatic hyperplasia

    Hirano T.; Homma M.; Oka K. Dept. of Clinical Pharmacology, Tokyo College of Pharmacy, 1432-1 Horinouchi,Hachioji, Tokyo 192-03 Japan Planta Medica (Germany) 1994, 60/1 (30-33)

    The effects of organic-solvent extracts of Urtica dioica (Urticaceae) on the Nasup +,Ksup +-ATPase of the tissue of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) were investigated. The membrane Nasup +,Ksup +-ATPase fraction was prepared from a patient with BPH by a differential centrifugation of the tissue homogenate. The enzyme activity was inhibited by 10sup -sup 4-10sup -sup 5 M of ouabain. The hexane extract, the ether extract, the ethyl acetate extract, and the butanol extract of the roots caused 27.6-81.5% inhibition of the enzyme activity at 0.1 mg/ml. In addition, a column extraction of stinging nettle roots using benzene as an eluent afforded efficient enzyme inhibiting activiry. Steroidal components in stinging nettle roots, such as stigmast-4-en-3-one, stigmasterol, and campesterol inhibited the enzyme activity by 23.0-67.0% at concentrations ranging from 10sup -sup 3-10sup -sup 6 M. These results suggest that some hydrophobic constituents such as steroids in the stinging nettle roots inhibited the membrane Nasup +,Ksup +-ATPase activity of the prostate, which may subsequently suppress prostate-cell metabolism and growth.






    Lignans from the roots of Urtica dioica and their metabolites bind to human sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG).

    Schottner M, Gansser D, Spiteller G Lehrstuhl Organische Chemie I, Universitat Bayreuth, Germany. Planta Med 1997 Dec;63(6):529-32

    Polar extracts of the stinging nettle (Urtica dioica L.) roots contain the ligans (+)-neoolivil, (-)-secoisolariciresinol, dehydrodiconiferyl alcohol, isolariciresinol, pinoresinol, and 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran. These compounds were either isolated from Urtica roots, or obtained semisynthetically. Their affinity to human sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) was tested in an in vitro assay. In addition, the main intestinal transformation products of plant lignans in humans, enterodiol and enterolactone, together with enterofuran were checked for their activity. All lignans except (-)-pinoresinol developed a binding affinity to SHBG in the in vitro assay. The affinity of (-)-3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran was outstandingly high. These findings are discussed with respect to potential beneficial effects of plant lignans on benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Great references!

    Yes, stinging nettle seems to be a different matter.

    However, in those who are not hypogonadal, with intact feedback mechanism, stinging nettle, or anything else which "frees up testosterone", will NOT increase either Free or Bioavailable T.
    Hmmm. (Hope I can steer this away from TRT for a second...)
    So - you are saying that all these "free testosterone optimizer" supplements won't increase free testosterone for us normal males??
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmh80
    Hmmm. (Hope I can steer this away from TRT for a second...)
    So - you are saying that all these "free testosterone optimizer" supplements won't increase free testosterone for us normal males??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    That is correct.
    “J Clin Endocrinol Metab 84:3666-3672, 1999 – A critical evaluation of simple methods for the estimation of free testosterone in serum”
    Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator

    freeTestosteron calculator
    Concentration Testosterone = FT(free) + Alb-bound-T + [SHBG]-bound-T
    Testosterone = [S] + [SA] + [SP]
    -----------------------------------------------------
    or 2006 version with two SHBG's
    http----://www.atypon-link.com/WDG/doi/pdf/10.1515/JLM.2006.050?cookieSet=1
    -----------------------------------------------------
    When everything works correctly the above equation holds as is plus other (E2, DHT) hormones (not included in above equation) are in balance.
    When Total T decline, at first we see decline in Free T.
    When we supply T externally we need to know how much T to apply in order to restore correct balance since excessive T will turn into excess E2 and DHT.
    ==========
    Only approximate range of Correct (desirable) Total T and FreeT levels are known.

    How to go about finding correct ranges for individual patient?
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    Thanks Dr.

    I've known for a year now that free'ed up testosterone lasted little longer than an hour before being metabolized.
    So - I didn't put a whole lot of stock in free test supps. I havne't seen many results above what a good diet and exercise program (from Bobo) already gave me.

    I did, however, get before and after blood tests while taking a certain free testosterone supp w/ stinging nettle extract (the divanyltetrahydrofuran molecule).
    It showed a 50% increase in free T I think. (The log w/ bloodwork is on here somewhere...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    What?
    On 5gram, 1 packet of Androgel I tested
    Total Testosterone--664 ng/dL (241-827)
    Free Testosterone--9.5 pg/mL (6.6-18.1)

    On 15gram, 3 packet of Androgel I tested
    Total Testosterone--1625 ng/dL (241-827)
    Free Testosterone--over 50 pg/mL (6.6-18.1)


    On 10gram, 2 packets of Androgel I tested
    Total Testosterone--932 ng/dL (241-827)
    Free Testosterone--36.5 pg/mL (6.6-18.1)

    ============================== ========
    Which one is right and why?
    ============================== =========
    btw, I am in process of trying 7.5grams, 1.5 packets
    plus two pills from LEF equal (I think) to 2 tablets of Indolplex-DIM
    I think it works.
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    Hmmm.
    I did have the before and after tests at around the same time (maybe 7am - had to do it before work).

    But - even if I had a small increase in free testosterone, I didn't see any performance increases at the gym or increased muscle mass. I agree that these free testosterone increasing supplements are fool's gold.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmh80
    Hmmm.
    I did have the before and after tests at around the same time (maybe 7am - had to do it before work).

    But - even if I had a small increase in free testosterone, I didn't see any performance increases at the gym or increased muscle mass. I agree that these free testosterone increasing supplements are fool's gold.
    Which of these free testosterone increasing supps have you taken, or better yet which ones do you put in this category (fools gold) that are out now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Your natural variation throughout the day can cover that. And also, the Free T assay is not very relaible.
    I would like to note that Dr John said assay.

    I am having little research going, my understanding is that the way to go is to calculate FreeT and BAT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    ............ And also, the Free T assay is not very relaible.
    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz
    I would like to note that Dr John said assay.
    I am having little research going, my understanding is that the way to go is to calculate FreeT and BAT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    You've got that backwards, Bro. But it must be a reliable assay methodology.
    Please let me know which assay is the reliable one and when we need to pursue it. (Dr Shippen is not using it, at least on one of his current patients).
    ---------
    In the mean time I am thinking that RIA is not the one, as well as many other methods.
    Sole reason for my opinion explained here:
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/86/6/2903.pdf
    Short article, I will post it on my next post.
    Is there a reason why those tests are still around?
    Yes, kits to do the tests are easy to use.
    Author is probably restraining himself when hi says:
    "We all know that there are numerous assays for hormones in serum that
    are method specific. However, I know of no other that has been demonstrated
    to be so egregiously incorrect."
    ----------
    In the mean time I was able to find little detail on how Dr Shippen is treating one of our Bro's.
    He uses chart/nomogram that figures out Calculated Free Testosterone (CFT) based on Total Testosterone and SHBG.
    Bottom of the chart says that it was derived base on
    “J Clin Endocrinol Metab 84:3666-3672, 1999 – A critical evaluation of simple methods for the estimation of free testosterone in serum”
    It did not take me much googling to find out calculator based on exactly same method.
    Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator
    This calculator additionally accounts for level of Albumin.
    ---------
    My next step was to look at tests done by LabCorp and Quest Diagnostic.
    LabCorp is not offering Calculated Free T (CFT), they probably use kits as those described above.
    Quest Diagnostics does both. Yes they offer (calculated) CFT and (calculated) BioAvailable Testosterone (BAT).
    Testosterone, LC/MS/MS
    It is their third test (on the bottom)
    Units and ranges dovetail nicely with what Dr Shippen is using.
    ----------
    How am I doing? I know, science, specially on cutting edge, changes quickly.
    I would appreciate little more of you inside on what is you current thinking.
    Practical approaches for us, down below with soft bones, muscles and pines and other ailments.
    Ranges, relationship/control of E2 and DHT, anything else.
    ----------
    I am so glad that you grace this forum with your wisdom.
    Jan
    ----------
    ps. I must have lost 3 quarts of sweat last night, dancing 2 hours non stop and another two with breaks, with 22yo, dark eyes, B-cup, 5'7', 115# Maria.
    Got to drink quart of tonic water to prevent cramps.
    .
    .
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    LETTER TO THE EDITOR
    An Extraordinarily Inaccurate Assay for Free
    Testosterone Is Still with Us

    To the editor:
    Perusing the November 2000 issue of JCE&M, I noted an article in
    which one of the outcome measures was serum free testosterone (1). The
    method used to measure serum free testosterone, a direct RIA that
    purports to, but does not, measure the free testosterone concentration is
    one whose use I decried in a letter to the editor published more than 3
    yr ago (2). Not long after, Vermeulen et al. (3) published a side-by-side
    experimental comparison of methods for determining the concentration
    of free testosterone in serum. Those experiments conclusively show that
    the direct RIA of free testosterone is seriously inaccurate, underestimating
    its concentration by many-fold. To my knowledge, there are no
    data that contradict these conclusions. Hence, I was surprised to find that
    the direct assay method not only was still being used for investigative
    purposes, but also was being published in what is among the foremost
    endocrine journals in the world.
    To see how pervasive this situation was, I undertook to examine the
    frequency with which those publishing in the journal were using this
    methodology.
    Methods. I conducted a full text, online search, of the JCE&M (January
    1998-November 2000) using the term “free testosterone.” Then, I evaluated
    each retrieved citation containing the term and ascertained
    whether it revealed the use of a direct RIA for free testosterone, an
    alternate method for measuring free testosterone, or was not applicable
    (e.g. free testosterone mentioned in an editorial, a comment, a discussion,
    a bibliography, etc.). In addition to the foregoing, there were a number
    of publications in which no reference was given.
    Results. A total of 116 citations were retrieved: 49 were not applicable;
    11 contained no reference for the method cited; 24 used a method other
    than direct RIA; and 32 used the direct RIA. Of the 116 citations, 67 were
    suitable to address the question at hand. Thus, 48% (32 of 67) of the
    applicable papers used a seriously inaccurate method for estimating free
    testosterone and, almost as serious, 16% (11 of 67) cited no method at all.
    Why would anyone choose to use this methodology? Perhaps the
    answer can be found in the technical bulletins of one of the companies
    that manufacture and sell kits that use this method. The relevant citations
    reveal that kits made by two companies, Diagnostic Products and
    Diagnostic Systems Laboratories, Inc. (DSL), account for almost all the
    inappropriate measurements of free testosterone in papers published in
    the journal during the period in question. A DSL technical bulletin
    (cPanel®. dslabs.com/techlit/4900tb2.doc) advertises: “Historically,
    free testosterone levels were determined by a method known as
    equilibrium dialysis. . . . The method is cumbersome, time-consuming,
    and equipment intensive.” Conversely, we are told, the DSL direct
    method is simple and rapid. The only difficulty is that “the equilibrium
    dialysis method gave values approximately 4 times higher than did the
    DSL kit.” As if to compensate for the inexcusable inaccuracy, the technical
    bulletin and accompanying X-Y plot of RIA vs. equilibrium dialysis
    makes the point that the correlation coefficient is 0.92. Even this is
    deceiving. The points at the upper end of the DSL method are the major
    contributors to the fitted line. Visual examination of the plot indicates
    that a line through the lower points (17 of 21 points below the fitted line
    and 2 points above it) would have a substantially different slope than
    that indicated by the published fitted line. Thus, in addition to being
    inaccurate, this observation indicates that, compared with equilibrium
    dialysis, the assay is not linear. Yet, the kit remains on the market
    because it is easy to use.
    Almost one half of the publications dealing with free testosterone, in
    the period under consideration, used an inaccurate assay for its measurement.
    Even if the (somewhat more time-consuming) procedure of
    equilibrium dialysis were the only alternative, the literature of science
    ought not to use a method so grossly inaccurate when better ones exist.
    We all know that there are numerous assays for hormones in serum that
    are method specific. However, I know of no other that has been demonstrated
    to be so egregiously incorrect. The journal might choose to
    return manuscripts that use it without further evaluation to discourage
    its use.
    William Rosner
    Department of Endocrinology
    St. Luke’s-Roosevelt Hospital Center
    New York, New York 10019
    References
    1. Brown GA, Vukovich MD, Martini ER, et al. 2000 Endocrine responses to
    chronic androstenedione intake in 30- to 56-year-old men. J Clin Endocrinol
    Metab. 85:4074–4080.
    2. Rosner W. 1997 Errors in the measurement of plasma free testosterone. J Clin
    Endocrinol Metab. 82:2014–2015 (Letter).
    3. Vermeulen A, Verdonck L, Kaufman JM. 1999 A critical evaluation of simple
    methods for the estimation of free testosterone in serum. J Clin Endocrinol
    Metab. 84:3666 –3672.
    Received November 29, 2000. Address correspondence to: William
    Rosner, M.D., Department of Endocrinology, St. Luke’s-Roosevelt Hospital
    Center, 1000 Tenth Avenue, New York, New York 10019.
    0021-972X/01/$03.00/0 Vol. 86, No. 6
    The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Printed in U.S.A.
    Copyright © 2001 by The Endocrine Society
    2903
    Downloaded from jcem.endojournals.org by on January 6, 2007
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    So did you get the chicks number? you sly dog you
    She could be better indicator then any blood work to see if your TRT is really working. From her anthromorphological measurements and weight distrubution that would have to be a 34 B correct
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
    So did you get the chicks number? you sly dog you
    She could be better indicator then any blood work to see if your TRT is really working. From her anthromorphological measurements and weight distrubution that would have to be a 34 B correct
    You have got me curious, I will make a habit of carrying measuring tape with me.
    On second thought, at my age I cannot be too picky.
    Then again, D is my upper limit, specially when more than 40yo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz
    You have got me curious, I will make a habit of carrying measuring tape with me.
    On second thought, at my age I cannot be too picky.
    Then again, D is my upper limit, specially when more than 40yo.
    Anything more then c to d meaning they are fat and sloppy. Most likelty can not see there toes either or if younger have a first name like "Trixy" and want money, Thats why my GF is a b/c cup but shes 5'2 and wants to goto a D, but also she is competing in figure so she needs it to compliment the package.
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    Of interest, is the downstream conversion of all anabolics such as testosterone, DHEA, progesterone and Estrogen into one of 40 different estrogen metabolites. this is measured best by a urine test for 24 hours collection showing not just estradiol, but "Bad" 16 alpha Hydroxestrone- OHE, "Good" 2- Hydroxesterone-OHE and the total collection of Testosterone during the 24 hours, not just the snap shot of blood or saliva, better the 24 urine giving the total load. It is from over 2 years of testing my clients with a supervising physician, we have observed two astonishing findings, one is the average person, man or woman over 25 years old, who is over fat, has too much of the bad 16 OHE as compared to the good 2 OHE, with typical ratio of less than 2 to 1, that is only two times more bad than good. According to Dr Naina Sachdev of Oregon, We then put them on Estroblock, Lean N Fit, new, and the blended drink as devised by Delgado, (48 to 60 ounces) blended by a Vitamix, "Krups" blender or Cusinart of napa chinese cabbage, baby Bok Choy, or two or three big leaves of large Bok Choy, one squash, carrot, and frozen cherries or red rasperries or blueberries to taste - in place of a breakfast or lunch or a before or after dinner meal and within less than 30 days the ratio changes to a 10 to 1 and after 6 months to nearly a 20 to 1, that is 20 times more of the safe, form of estrogen 2OHE as compared to the 16 aOHE. Also the Testosterone activity, improves especially when one adds to the typical injection of Dr John Protocol HCG and Testosterone, along with Avena Sativa 600 mg a day, (you get 100 mg of Avena Sativa from just two capsules of Lean N fit new, and expect increased erectile function, arousal, libido, muscle density, and less body fat. Expect to see lower LDL bad cholesterol, according to an early pilot study.
    Last edited by Dr. John; 07-17-2007 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Emphasize bolding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Imagine how the general health of our country would improve if couples just took a walk together in the evening (including the health of their relationship).
    Since my first consult with Dr John, I have been able to take a 4 mile walk every Saturday morning with my wife. We do it in an hour. MIght not be enough, but a start.

    Before starting with Dr John, no way in heck I had enough energy to do that.

    ...makin progress
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    I was getting there! I appreciate your help in our short time together. Looking forward to the progress.

    I like to use that avatar as a reminder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    He's no longer the guy in his avatar.
    <-- New "guy in the chair" Always someone to take his place, no worries Doc.
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    Is it possible that SubQ can be effective, along with IM of testosterone, when using a combination of DIM, I3C, (to clear unmetabolized estrones), Avena Sativa to release Free Testosterone by clearing SHBG (Sex Hormone binding Globlin) and using trandermal Chrysin (much more effective than oral Chrysin). We believe the results of urine and blood tests have confirmed on a number of men correct management of anabolic vs estrogenic effects is profoundly important and underestimated by many, until they try it and see the results of harder body, better sex, increased mental clarity. By the way, these results are amplified by plant derived nitrogen (used in capsule form 100 to 285 mg taken 30 to 45 minutes prior to training, This concentrated nitrogenous base is excellent for recovery ideally for endurance strength athletes.

    Todays science has to be compared to individual results
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDelgado View Post
    Is it possible that SubQ can be effective, along with IM of testosterone, when using a combination of DIM, I3C, (to clear unmetabolized estrones), Avena Sativa to release Free Testosterone by clearing SHBG (Sex Hormone binding Globlin) and using trandermal Chrysin (much more effective than oral Chrysin). We believe the results of urine and blood tests have confirmed on a number of men correct management of anabolic vs estrogenic effects is profoundly important and underestimated by many, until they try it and see the results of harder body, better sex, increased mental clarity. By the way, these results are amplified by plant derived nitrogen (used in capsule form 100 to 285 mg taken 30 to 45 minutes prior to training, This concentrated nitrogenous base is excellent for recovery ideally for endurance strength athletes.

    Todays science has to be compared to individual results
    Thank you.

    Avena Sativa
    and
    Chrysin
    lower SHBG, that is good because many have it high.

    There is however group of people with low sometimes very low (7) SHBG.

    How to raise SHBG?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDelgado View Post
    Is it possible that SubQ can be effective, along with IM of testosterone, when using a combination of DIM, I3C, (to clear unmetabolized estrones), Avena Sativa to release Free Testosterone by clearing SHBG (Sex Hormone binding Globlin) and using trandermal Chrysin (much more effective than oral Chrysin). We believe the results of urine and blood tests have confirmed on a number of men correct management of anabolic vs estrogenic effects is profoundly important and underestimated by many, until they try it and see the results of harder body, better sex, increased mental clarity. By the way, these results are amplified by plant derived nitrogen (used in capsule form 100 to 285 mg taken 30 to 45 minutes prior to training, This concentrated nitrogenous base is excellent for recovery ideally for endurance strength athletes.

    Todays science has to be compared to individual results
    Avena Sativa - what dosage and what percentatage of active ingredient is needed to actually lower the shbg

    is stinging nettles needed with this as well and what dosages are required and if both of these are taken together would there be less dosages needed.

    Topical chyrsin is interesting but i have seen only one or 2 published lab results, but only speculation for humans. In know Shippen is a big beleiveer in chyrsin but no before and after labs were ever shown. Once this has been validated by clincal human studies then there will be more credence behind this and may open up doors to future in the less administration of pharmacutical AI. But as always I keep an open mind on new things being discovered daily I just prefer to see it scientifically backed ina controlled testing enviorment.
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    before worrying about how to raise SHBG, consider these posts from Marianco...



    Avena Sativa
    and
    Chrysin
    lower SHBG, that is good because many have it high.

    There is however group of people with low sometimes very low (7) SHBG.

    How to raise SHBG?[/QUOTE]
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    meant this too..

    before worrying about how to raise SHBG, consider these posts from Marianco...



    Avena Sativa
    and
    Chrysin
    lower SHBG, that is good because many have it high.

    There is however group of people with low sometimes very low (7) SHBG.

    How to raise SHBG?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    Quote Originally Posted by wondering View Post
    meant this too..

    before worrying about how to raise SHBG, consider these posts from Marianco...



    Avena Sativa
    and
    Chrysin
    lower SHBG, that is good because many have it high.

    There is however group of people with low sometimes very low (7) SHBG.

    How to raise SHBG?
    Thank you, thank you.

    Before I finish reading....

    There is resource that I was not aware of.
    You or somebody copied Dr Marianco's posts and filed them as attachments.

    How to get my hot hands on that list of attachments?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Thank you, thank you.

    Before I finish reading....

    There is resource that I was not aware of.
    You or somebody copied Dr Marianco's posts and filed them as attachments.

    How to get my hot hands on that list of attachments?
    send me your email I got 451 pages of them
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    send me your email I got 451 pages of them
    Thank you, I will, but first see if there is a way to make the list public so we all could have good resource at hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Thank you, I will, but first see if there is a way to make the list public so we all could have good resource at hand.
    Tell me how to attach step by step I will bro ..
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    Tell me how to attach step by step I will bro ..
    I think wondering (or somebody hi knows) already did (I think), big job, very usefull.
    All we need is to get link to the post where all this work resides.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I think wondering already did (I think), big job, very usefull.
    All we need is to get link to the post where all this work resides.
    I have them on a word document file !!need to know how to make them a webpage
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDelgado View Post
    Of interest, is the downstream conversion of all anabolics such as testosterone, DHEA, progesterone and Estrogen into one of 40 different estrogen metabolites. this is measured best by a urine test for 24 hours collection showing not just estradiol, but "Bad" 16 alpha Hydroxestrone- OHE, "Good" 2- Hydroxesterone-OHE and the total collection of Testosterone during the 24 hours, not just the snap shot of blood or saliva, better the 24 urine giving the total load. It is from over 2 years of testing my clients with a supervising physician, we have observed two astonishing findings, one is the average person, man or woman over 25 years old, who is over fat, has too much of the bad 16 OHE as compared to the good 2 OHE, with typical ratio of less than 2 to 1, that is only two times more bad than good. According to Dr Naina Sachdev of Oregon, We then put them on Estroblock, Lean N Fit, new, and the blended drink as devised by Delgado, (48 to 60 ounces) blended by a Vitamix, "Krups" blender or Cusinart of napa chinese cabbage, baby Bok Choy, or two or three big leaves of large Bok Choy, one squash, carrot, and frozen cherries or red rasperries or blueberries to taste - in place of a breakfast or lunch or a before or after dinner meal and within less than 30 days the ratio changes to a 10 to 1 and after 6 months to nearly a 20 to 1, that is 20 times more of the safe, form of estrogen 2OHE as compared to the 16 aOHE. Also the Testosterone activity, improves especially when one adds to the typical injection of Dr John Protocol HCG and Testosterone, along with Avena Sativa 600 mg a day, (you get 100 mg of Avena Sativa from just two capsules of Lean N fit new, and expect increased erectile function, arousal, libido, muscle density, and less body fat. Expect to see lower LDL bad cholesterol, according to an early pilot study.
    Ok then this proves changing the good to bad ratio is one of the steps needed to increase bioactivity of testosterone which alot of us are in need of. VERY INTERESTING !!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    I have them on a word document file !!need to know how to make them a webpage
    Check your PM box.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Check your PM box.
    sent
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    sent
    Hardasnails notes of dr Marianco's posts.

    Warning, 424 pages.
    It is converted from eml to doc
    Board is not accepting eml
    If something is missing, please note,
    I have the original as received from HAN.
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    For those of you not PC friendly and having issues reading the large text, simply click on "Edit" at top header, click on select all, then go to change font size to a smaller size. It will shrink it down to a readable level.
  

  
 

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