Avoiding excess conversion of testosterone into estradiol during testosterone treatme
- 01-11-2007, 04:13 PM
Avoiding excess conversion of testosterone into estradiol during testosterone treatme
Now, this is hot hot.
Does anybody have any details ???
Euromedicom - Promoting Science for tomorrow
AMWC 2007 Anti-Aging Medicine World Congress
Friday March 23
Testosterone treatment against coronary heart disease EUGENE SHIPPEN (USA)
Avoiding excess conversion of testosterone into estradiol during testosterone treatment EUGENE SHIPPEN (USA)
Vitamin D: Anti-cancer and immunologic effects EUGENE SHIPPEN (USA)
- 01-11-2007, 05:10 PM
Or is it as simple as stated here:
would propose, the problem is
high estrogen levels in the
prostate. We need testosterone
and DHT for healthy prostate
function. We must use Beta
Sistosterol to enhance prostate
function and use DIM to reduce
estrogen levels in the prostate."
Medication have a hard time to penetrate into prostate.
I guess they claim that DIM reduces estrogen in prostate, other AI's do not or not as much??
I had about 7 prostate biopsies, not really that bad as it sounds.
Wonder if prostate injections with AI would make a difference??
So, the questiom may have been already answered by our Dr. John on
01-08-2007, 11:16 PM
testosterone cream V.S sustanon which is easier on your hair
and I just have to figure out what and how much to take, specifically, brand name number of pills, etc, all those little details.
01-12-2007, 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by JanSz
Based on references from pmgamer and others, you may try this. Search the boards and you'll find more info. I am patiently awaiting my first shipment.
PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM which can be found at www. ritecare .com
Hope this helps!
01-13-2007, 08:25 AM
wouldnt stinging nettle root do the same?-----------------------Nettle
About 90% of testosterone is produced by the testes; the remainder is produced by the adrenal glands. Tes-tosterone functions as an aphrodisiac hormone in brain cells and as an anabolic hormone in the development of bone and skeletal muscle. But testosterone that becomes bound to serum globulin is not available to cell receptor sites and fails to induce a libido effect. It is therefore desirable to increase levels of "free tes-tosterone" in order to ignite sexual arousal in the brain.
As discussed already, a hormone that controls levels of free testosterone is called SHBG. When testosterone binds to SHBG, it loses its biological activity and becomes known as "bound testosterone," as opposed to the desirable "free testosterone." As men age past age 45, SHBG's binding capacity increases almost dramatically--by 40% on average--and coincides with the age-associated loss of libido.
Some studies show that the decline in sexual interest with advancing age is not always due to the amount of testosterone produced, but rather to the increased binding of testosterone to globulin by SHBG. This explains why some older men who are on testosterone replacement therapy do not report a long-term aphrodisiac effect. That is, the artificially administered testosterone becomes bound by SHBG and is not bioavailable to cellular receptor sites where it would normally produce a libido-enhancing effect.
It should be noted that the liver also causes tes-tosterone to bind to globulin. This liver-induced binding of testosterone is worsened by the use of sedatives, antihypertensives, tranquilizers, and alcoholic beverages. The overuse of drugs and alcohol could explain why some men do not experience a libido-enhancing effect when consuming drugs and plant-based aphrodisiacs. An interesting review entitled "How Desire Dies" (Nature, 381/6584, 1996) discusses how frequently prescribed drugs, such as beta-blockers and antidepressants, cause sexual dysfunction. Prescription drugs of all types have been linked to inhibition of libido.
Logically, one way of increasing libido in older men would be to block the testosterone-binding effects of SHBG. This would leave more testosterone in its free, sexually activating form.
A highly concentrated extract from the nettle root provides a unique mechanism for increasing levels of free testosterone. European research has identified constituents of nettle root that bind to SHBG in place of testosterone, thus reducing SHBG's binding of free testosterone (309-313). As the authors of one study stated, these constituents of nettle root "may influence the blood level of free, i.e., active, steroid hormones by displacing them from the SHBG binding site."
The prostate gland also benefits from nettle root. In Germany, nettle root has been used as a treatment for benign prostatic hyperplasia (enlargement of the prostate gland) for decades. A metabolite of testosterone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulates prostate growth, leading to enlargement. Nettle root inhibits the binding of DHT to attachment sites on the prostate membrane.
Nettle extracts also inhibit enzymes such as 5-alpha reductase that cause testosterone to convert to DHT. It is the DHT metabolite of testosterone that is known to cause benign prostate enlargement, excess facial hair, and hair loss at the top of the head.
01-13-2007, 08:54 AM
01-13-2007, 09:05 AM
Definitely YES.Originally Posted by Dr. John
If possible with material to keep, for further review and study.
Also Dr. Shippen's DVD's from Las Vegas, and his other on topic printed or media material.
01-13-2007, 01:05 PM
01-13-2007, 02:52 PM
----------All Im trying to say is--If you use outside source of test or not that stinging nettle can 1]raise natural test 2]is best for all prostate issues---including removing estrogen from prostate ----------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Dr. John
The effect of extracts of the roots of the stinging nettle (Urtica dioica) on the interaction of SHBG with its receptor on human prostatic membranes.
Hryb DJ, Khan MS, Romas NA, Rosner W Department of Medicine, St. Luke's/Roosevelt Hospital Center, New York, N.Y. 10019. Planta Med 1995 Feb;61(1):31-2
Extracts from the roots of the stinging nettle (Urtica dioica) are used in the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia. The mechanisms underlying this treatment have not been elucidated. We set out to determine whether specific extracts from U. dioica had the ability to modulate the binding of sex hormone-binding globulin to its receptor on human prostatic membranes. Four substances contained in U. dioica were examined: an aqueous extract; an alcoholic extract; U. dioica agglutinin, and stigmasta-4-en-3-one. Of these, only the aqueous extract was active. It inhibited the binding of 125I-SHBG to its receptor. The inhibition was dose related, starting at about 0.6 mg/ml and completely inhibited binding at 10 mg/ml.
Effects of stinging nettle root extracts and their steroidal components on the Na+,K(+)-ATPase of the benign prostatic hyperplasia.
Hirano T, Homma M, Oka K Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Tokyo College of Pharmacy, Japan. Planta Med 1994 Feb;60(1):30-3
The effects of organic-solvent extracts of Urtica dioica (Urticaceae) on the Na+,K(+)-ATPase of the tissue of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) were investigated. The membrane Na+,K(+)-ATPase fraction was prepared from a patient with BPH by a differential centrifugation of the tissue homogenate. The enzyme activity was inhibited by 10(-4)-10(-5) M of ouabain. The hexane extract, the ether extract, the ethyl acetate extract, and the butanol extract of the roots caused 27.6-81.5% inhibition of the enzyme activity at 0.1 mg/ml. In addition, a column extraction of stinging nettle roots using benzene as an eluent afforded efficient enzyme inhibiting activity. Steroidal components in stinging nettle roots, such as stigmast-4-en-3-one, stigmasterol, and campesterol inhibited the enzyme activity by 23.0-67.0% at concentrations ranging from 10(-3)-10(-6) M. These results suggest that some hydrophobic constituents such as steroids in the stinging nettle roots inhibited the membrane Na+,K(+)-ATPase activity of the prostate, which may subsequently suppress prostate-cell metabolism and growth.
The inhibiting effects of Urtica dioica root extracts on experimentally induced prostatic hyperplasia in the mouse.
Lichius JJ, Muth C Institut fur Pharmazeutische Biologie, Philipps-Universitat, Marburg, Germany. Planta Med 1997 Aug;63(4):307-10
Extracts of stinging nettle roots (Urtica dioica L. Urticaceae) are used in the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). We established a BPH-model by directly implanting an urogenital sinus (UGS) into the ventral prostate gland of an adult mouse. Five differently prepared stinging nettle root extracts were tested in this model. The 20% methanolic extract was the most effective with a 51.4% inhibition of induced growth.
Aromatase inhibitors from Urtica dioica roots
Gansser D.; Spiteller G. Lehrstuhl Organische Chemie 1, Universitat Bayreuth, NW I, Universitatsstrasse 30,D-95440 Bayreuth Germany Planta Medica (Germany) 1995, 61/2 (138-140)
Methanolic extracts of stinging nettle (Urtica dioica L.) roots were investigated for aromatase inhibition. Enzyme inhibition was detected only after appropriate chromatographic separation. Inhibitory effects on aromatase could be demonstrated in vitro for a variety of compounds belonging to different classes. The following compounds developed weak to moderate activity: secoisolariciresinol (1), oleanolic and ursolic acid (2 and 3), (9Z,11E)-13-hydroxy-9,11-octadecadienoic acid (4), and 14-octacosanol (5). Inhibitory effects on aromatase have been known to date neither for pentacyclic triterpenes nor for secondary fatty alcohols. The potential physiological significance of the above findings is discussed. Compound 5 is a previously unknown constituent of plants.
Effects of stinging nettle root extracts and their steroidal components on the Nasup +,Ksup +-ATPase of the benign prostatic hyperplasia
Hirano T.; Homma M.; Oka K. Dept. of Clinical Pharmacology, Tokyo College of Pharmacy, 1432-1 Horinouchi,Hachioji, Tokyo 192-03 Japan Planta Medica (Germany) 1994, 60/1 (30-33)
The effects of organic-solvent extracts of Urtica dioica (Urticaceae) on the Nasup +,Ksup +-ATPase of the tissue of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) were investigated. The membrane Nasup +,Ksup +-ATPase fraction was prepared from a patient with BPH by a differential centrifugation of the tissue homogenate. The enzyme activity was inhibited by 10sup -sup 4-10sup -sup 5 M of ouabain. The hexane extract, the ether extract, the ethyl acetate extract, and the butanol extract of the roots caused 27.6-81.5% inhibition of the enzyme activity at 0.1 mg/ml. In addition, a column extraction of stinging nettle roots using benzene as an eluent afforded efficient enzyme inhibiting activiry. Steroidal components in stinging nettle roots, such as stigmast-4-en-3-one, stigmasterol, and campesterol inhibited the enzyme activity by 23.0-67.0% at concentrations ranging from 10sup -sup 3-10sup -sup 6 M. These results suggest that some hydrophobic constituents such as steroids in the stinging nettle roots inhibited the membrane Nasup +,Ksup +-ATPase activity of the prostate, which may subsequently suppress prostate-cell metabolism and growth.
Lignans from the roots of Urtica dioica and their metabolites bind to human sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG).
Schottner M, Gansser D, Spiteller G Lehrstuhl Organische Chemie I, Universitat Bayreuth, Germany. Planta Med 1997 Dec;63(6):529-32
Polar extracts of the stinging nettle (Urtica dioica L.) roots contain the ligans (+)-neoolivil, (-)-secoisolariciresinol, dehydrodiconiferyl alcohol, isolariciresinol, pinoresinol, and 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran. These compounds were either isolated from Urtica roots, or obtained semisynthetically. Their affinity to human sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) was tested in an in vitro assay. In addition, the main intestinal transformation products of plant lignans in humans, enterodiol and enterolactone, together with enterofuran were checked for their activity. All lignans except (-)-pinoresinol developed a binding affinity to SHBG in the in vitro assay. The affinity of (-)-3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran was outstandingly high. These findings are discussed with respect to potential beneficial effects of plant lignans on benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH).
01-13-2007, 03:30 PM
Hmmm. (Hope I can steer this away from TRT for a second...)Originally Posted by Dr. John
So - you are saying that all these "free testosterone optimizer" supplements won't increase free testosterone for us normal males??
01-13-2007, 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by jmh80
“J Clin Endocrinol Metab 84:3666-3672, 1999 – A critical evaluation of simple methods for the estimation of free testosterone in serum”Originally Posted by Dr. John
Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator
Concentration Testosterone = FT(free) + Alb-bound-T + [SHBG]-bound-T
Testosterone = [S] + [SA] + [SP]
or 2006 version with two SHBG's
When everything works correctly the above equation holds as is plus other (E2, DHT) hormones (not included in above equation) are in balance.
When Total T decline, at first we see decline in Free T.
When we supply T externally we need to know how much T to apply in order to restore correct balance since excessive T will turn into excess E2 and DHT.
Only approximate range of Correct (desirable) Total T and FreeT levels are known.
How to go about finding correct ranges for individual patient?
01-13-2007, 05:43 PM
I've known for a year now that free'ed up testosterone lasted little longer than an hour before being metabolized.
So - I didn't put a whole lot of stock in free test supps. I havne't seen many results above what a good diet and exercise program (from Bobo) already gave me.
I did, however, get before and after blood tests while taking a certain free testosterone supp w/ stinging nettle extract (the divanyltetrahydrofuran molecule).
It showed a 50% increase in free T I think. (The log w/ bloodwork is on here somewhere...)
01-13-2007, 07:23 PM
On 5gram, 1 packet of Androgel I testedOriginally Posted by Dr. John
Total Testosterone--664 ng/dL (241-827)
Free Testosterone--9.5 pg/mL (6.6-18.1)
On 15gram, 3 packet of Androgel I tested
Total Testosterone--1625 ng/dL (241-827)
Free Testosterone--over 50 pg/mL (6.6-18.1)
On 10gram, 2 packets of Androgel I tested
Total Testosterone--932 ng/dL (241-827)
Free Testosterone--36.5 pg/mL (6.6-18.1)
Which one is right and why?
btw, I am in process of trying 7.5grams, 1.5 packets
plus two pills from LEF equal (I think) to 2 tablets of Indolplex-DIM
I think it works.
01-14-2007, 12:41 PM
I did have the before and after tests at around the same time (maybe 7am - had to do it before work).
But - even if I had a small increase in free testosterone, I didn't see any performance increases at the gym or increased muscle mass. I agree that these free testosterone increasing supplements are fool's gold.
01-28-2007, 12:07 PM
Which of these free testosterone increasing supps have you taken, or better yet which ones do you put in this category (fools gold) that are out now?Originally Posted by jmh80
01-28-2007, 04:00 PM
I would like to note that Dr John said assay.Originally Posted by Dr. John
I am having little research going, my understanding is that the way to go is to calculate FreeT and BAT.
01-29-2007, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by Dr. JohnOriginally Posted by JanSzPlease let me know which assay is the reliable one and when we need to pursue it. (Dr Shippen is not using it, at least on one of his current patients).Originally Posted by Dr. John
In the mean time I am thinking that RIA is not the one, as well as many other methods.
Sole reason for my opinion explained here:
Short article, I will post it on my next post.
Is there a reason why those tests are still around?
Yes, kits to do the tests are easy to use.
Author is probably restraining himself when hi says:
"We all know that there are numerous assays for hormones in serum that
are method specific. However, I know of no other that has been demonstrated
to be so egregiously incorrect."
In the mean time I was able to find little detail on how Dr Shippen is treating one of our Bro's.
He uses chart/nomogram that figures out Calculated Free Testosterone (CFT) based on Total Testosterone and SHBG.
Bottom of the chart says that it was derived base on
“J Clin Endocrinol Metab 84:3666-3672, 1999 – A critical evaluation of simple methods for the estimation of free testosterone in serum”
It did not take me much googling to find out calculator based on exactly same method.
Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator
This calculator additionally accounts for level of Albumin.
My next step was to look at tests done by LabCorp and Quest Diagnostic.
LabCorp is not offering Calculated Free T (CFT), they probably use kits as those described above.
Quest Diagnostics does both. Yes they offer (calculated) CFT and (calculated) BioAvailable Testosterone (BAT).
It is their third test (on the bottom)
Units and ranges dovetail nicely with what Dr Shippen is using.
How am I doing? I know, science, specially on cutting edge, changes quickly.
I would appreciate little more of you inside on what is you current thinking.
Practical approaches for us, down below with soft bones, muscles and pines and other ailments.
Ranges, relationship/control of E2 and DHT, anything else.
I am so glad that you grace this forum with your wisdom.
ps. I must have lost 3 quarts of sweat last night, dancing 2 hours non stop and another two with breaks, with 22yo, dark eyes, B-cup, 5'7', 115# Maria.
Got to drink quart of tonic water to prevent cramps.
01-29-2007, 12:35 PM
LETTER TO THE EDITOR
An Extraordinarily Inaccurate Assay for Free
Testosterone Is Still with Us
To the editor:
Perusing the November 2000 issue of JCE&M, I noted an article in
which one of the outcome measures was serum free testosterone (1). The
method used to measure serum free testosterone, a direct RIA that
purports to, but does not, measure the free testosterone concentration is
one whose use I decried in a letter to the editor published more than 3
yr ago (2). Not long after, Vermeulen et al. (3) published a side-by-side
experimental comparison of methods for determining the concentration
of free testosterone in serum. Those experiments conclusively show that
the direct RIA of free testosterone is seriously inaccurate, underestimating
its concentration by many-fold. To my knowledge, there are no
data that contradict these conclusions. Hence, I was surprised to find that
the direct assay method not only was still being used for investigative
purposes, but also was being published in what is among the foremost
endocrine journals in the world.
To see how pervasive this situation was, I undertook to examine the
frequency with which those publishing in the journal were using this
Methods. I conducted a full text, online search, of the JCE&M (January
1998-November 2000) using the term “free testosterone.” Then, I evaluated
each retrieved citation containing the term and ascertained
whether it revealed the use of a direct RIA for free testosterone, an
alternate method for measuring free testosterone, or was not applicable
(e.g. free testosterone mentioned in an editorial, a comment, a discussion,
a bibliography, etc.). In addition to the foregoing, there were a number
of publications in which no reference was given.
Results. A total of 116 citations were retrieved: 49 were not applicable;
11 contained no reference for the method cited; 24 used a method other
than direct RIA; and 32 used the direct RIA. Of the 116 citations, 67 were
suitable to address the question at hand. Thus, 48% (32 of 67) of the
applicable papers used a seriously inaccurate method for estimating free
testosterone and, almost as serious, 16% (11 of 67) cited no method at all.
Why would anyone choose to use this methodology? Perhaps the
answer can be found in the technical bulletins of one of the companies
that manufacture and sell kits that use this method. The relevant citations
reveal that kits made by two companies, Diagnostic Products and
Diagnostic Systems Laboratories, Inc. (DSL), account for almost all the
inappropriate measurements of free testosterone in papers published in
the journal during the period in question. A DSL technical bulletin
(cPanel®. dslabs.com/techlit/4900tb2.doc) advertises: “Historically,
free testosterone levels were determined by a method known as
equilibrium dialysis. . . . The method is cumbersome, time-consuming,
and equipment intensive.” Conversely, we are told, the DSL direct
method is simple and rapid. The only difficulty is that “the equilibrium
dialysis method gave values approximately 4 times higher than did the
DSL kit.” As if to compensate for the inexcusable inaccuracy, the technical
bulletin and accompanying X-Y plot of RIA vs. equilibrium dialysis
makes the point that the correlation coefficient is 0.92. Even this is
deceiving. The points at the upper end of the DSL method are the major
contributors to the fitted line. Visual examination of the plot indicates
that a line through the lower points (17 of 21 points below the fitted line
and 2 points above it) would have a substantially different slope than
that indicated by the published fitted line. Thus, in addition to being
inaccurate, this observation indicates that, compared with equilibrium
dialysis, the assay is not linear. Yet, the kit remains on the market
because it is easy to use.
Almost one half of the publications dealing with free testosterone, in
the period under consideration, used an inaccurate assay for its measurement.
Even if the (somewhat more time-consuming) procedure of
equilibrium dialysis were the only alternative, the literature of science
ought not to use a method so grossly inaccurate when better ones exist.
We all know that there are numerous assays for hormones in serum that
are method specific. However, I know of no other that has been demonstrated
to be so egregiously incorrect. The journal might choose to
return manuscripts that use it without further evaluation to discourage
Department of Endocrinology
St. Luke’s-Roosevelt Hospital Center
New York, New York 10019References
1. Brown GA, Vukovich MD, Martini ER, et al. 2000 Endocrine responses to
chronic androstenedione intake in 30- to 56-year-old men. J Clin Endocrinol
2. Rosner W. 1997 Errors in the measurement of plasma free testosterone. J Clin
Endocrinol Metab. 82:2014–2015 (Letter).
3. Vermeulen A, Verdonck L, Kaufman JM. 1999 A critical evaluation of simple
methods for the estimation of free testosterone in serum. J Clin Endocrinol
Metab. 84:3666 –3672.
Received November 29, 2000. Address correspondence to: William
Rosner, M.D., Department of Endocrinology, St. Luke’s-Roosevelt Hospital
Center, 1000 Tenth Avenue, New York, New York 10019.
0021-972X/01/$03.00/0 Vol. 86, No. 6
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Printed in U.S.A.
Copyright © 2001 by The Endocrine Society
Downloaded from jcem.endojournals.org by on January 6, 2007
01-29-2007, 12:43 PM
So did you get the chicks number? you sly dog you
She could be better indicator then any blood work to see if your TRT is really working. From her anthromorphological measurements and weight distrubution that would have to be a 34 B correct
01-29-2007, 01:27 PM
You have got me curious, I will make a habit of carrying measuring tape with me.Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
On second thought, at my age I cannot be too picky.
Then again, D is my upper limit, specially when more than 40yo.
01-29-2007, 01:36 PM
Anything more then c to d meaning they are fat and sloppy. Most likelty can not see there toes either or if younger have a first name like "Trixy" and want money, Thats why my GF is a b/c cup but shes 5'2 and wants to goto a D, but also she is competing in figure so she needs it to compliment the package.Originally Posted by JanSz
07-17-2007, 07:41 PM
Of interest, is the downstream conversion of all anabolics such as testosterone, DHEA, progesterone and Estrogen into one of 40 different estrogen metabolites. this is measured best by a urine test for 24 hours collection showing not just estradiol, but "Bad" 16 alpha Hydroxestrone- OHE, "Good" 2- Hydroxesterone-OHE and the total collection of Testosterone during the 24 hours, not just the snap shot of blood or saliva, better the 24 urine giving the total load. It is from over 2 years of testing my clients with a supervising physician, we have observed two astonishing findings, one is the average person, man or woman over 25 years old, who is over fat, has too much of the bad 16 OHE as compared to the good 2 OHE, with typical ratio of less than 2 to 1, that is only two times more bad than good. According to Dr Naina Sachdev of Oregon, We then put them on Estroblock, Lean N Fit, new, and the blended drink as devised by Delgado, (48 to 60 ounces) blended by a Vitamix, "Krups" blender or Cusinart of napa chinese cabbage, baby Bok Choy, or two or three big leaves of large Bok Choy, one squash, carrot, and frozen cherries or red rasperries or blueberries to taste - in place of a breakfast or lunch or a before or after dinner meal and within less than 30 days the ratio changes to a 10 to 1 and after 6 months to nearly a 20 to 1, that is 20 times more of the safe, form of estrogen 2OHE as compared to the 16 aOHE. Also the Testosterone activity, improves especially when one adds to the typical injection of Dr John Protocol HCG and Testosterone, along with Avena Sativa 600 mg a day, (you get 100 mg of Avena Sativa from just two capsules of Lean N fit new, and expect increased erectile function, arousal, libido, muscle density, and less body fat. Expect to see lower LDL bad cholesterol, according to an early pilot study.
Last edited by Dr. John; 07-17-2007 at 07:48 PM. Reason: Emphasize bolding.
07-17-2007, 09:20 PM
07-18-2007, 07:40 PM
I was getting there! I appreciate your help in our short time together. Looking forward to the progress.
I like to use that avatar as a reminder.
07-20-2007, 04:10 AM
07-20-2007, 01:51 PM
Is it possible that SubQ can be effective, along with IM of testosterone, when using a combination of DIM, I3C, (to clear unmetabolized estrones), Avena Sativa to release Free Testosterone by clearing SHBG (Sex Hormone binding Globlin) and using trandermal Chrysin (much more effective than oral Chrysin). We believe the results of urine and blood tests have confirmed on a number of men correct management of anabolic vs estrogenic effects is profoundly important and underestimated by many, until they try it and see the results of harder body, better sex, increased mental clarity. By the way, these results are amplified by plant derived nitrogen (used in capsule form 100 to 285 mg taken 30 to 45 minutes prior to training, This concentrated nitrogenous base is excellent for recovery ideally for endurance strength athletes.
Todays science has to be compared to individual results
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