- 01-09-2007, 02:08 PM
- 01-09-2007, 04:01 PM
I seem to recall pmgamer saying 10-30 was about optimal, although I have also seen numbers 10-50 as being normal. And also stated that he functions well at around 20.
01-09-2007, 04:31 PM
are you referring to total estrogen or estradiol??
Dr. John believes that the total estrogen assay is invalid in general.
01-09-2007, 04:34 PM
Its EstadoilOriginally Posted by BigAk
It doesnt have a range and just says <40
Im at 39.46 so Im thinking of trying Arimidex @ .25 to see if that helps. Would that dose be every week or every other day or what?
01-09-2007, 07:41 PM
I was started at .25mg of Arimidex every three days.
It sounds like you did not have your estradiol tested with the proper sensitive assay.
I agree with SoMdHunter that when tested with the sensitive assay, the desired range is 10-30 and if you have SHBG in the "normal" range, 20 is best for most.
01-10-2007, 02:33 AM
Dont jump straight to arimidex, 1st try vit c, zinc/zma and indoplex/dim, wait a couple of weeks and get labs done again and see where ur estradiol is at.
Last edited by ItsHectic; 01-10-2007 at 02:56 AM.
01-10-2007, 10:29 AM
I agree all it may take is alittle DIM/TMG combo and then retest in a few weeksOriginally Posted by ItsHectic
01-10-2007, 10:36 AM
High Estradiol may be as result ofOriginally Posted by ItsHectic
1. using too much testosterone
2. when using gel, spreading it over too big area (I am not really convinced about #2.)
Body should be keept at desired level of testosterone.
That is determined by SHBG and Albumin.
It usually ends at 550-700ng/dl , or (550-650)
Testosterone, when in excess, will raise E2 and DHT.
Here lies a problem, Androgel 10grams, is reported to increase bone mass, below that level bone strenghtening is not observed.
10grams Androgel raises my to T=932, possibly too much, I recently reduced it to 7.5grams.
It is very recent work, 2006, the big news (for me) is that there is TWO SHBG hormones.
Interesting Fig6 (upper part).
An Extraordinarily Inaccurate Assay for Free
Testosterone Is Still with Us
01-10-2007, 11:33 AM
i use vit c zinc ect daily and always have no effectsOriginally Posted by ItsHectic
my doc said to try chrysin or w/e...but never asked me to come back for more tests.
is DIM strong enough? ive tried 6-oxo in the past low dose short time w no effects
i have nolva, but thats a serm, so thats why i was thinking of arimidex
01-10-2007, 01:30 PM
150 mg bid Dim with 500 mgs TMG BID would be my first guess after 2 weeks retest if dr will not then get another dr. You have a problem you run a protocol and needs to be followed up on with clincal testing.
01-10-2007, 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by JanSz
I recently switched from the patch to the gel. The 2.5mg was elevating tmy levels to 1000+ so my D.O. is currently having me do 1 pump of the 5mg gel (1.25mg) to see where my levels stabilize at.
So I am interested in your comment regarding the area of distribution. Where did you come across this and what was the thought behind it?
01-10-2007, 04:28 PM
----------------Originally Posted by glg
Only about 10% of testosterone (on average) gets into blood stream. Large variations are possible depending on skin type.
TABLE 1: Mean (± SD) Steady-State Serum Testosterone
Concentrations During Therapy (Day 180)
Cavg 555 ±225
Cmax 830 ±347
Cmin 371 ±165
there were people who had 830+347=1177
on 5grams of Androgel.
Your 1000 is not unusual. You probably have very low SHBG.
NDC Number Package Size
0051-8488-88 2 x 75 g pumps (each pump dispenses 60 metered 1.25 g doses)
When you are using only one pump I guess there is v small likelyhood of you having E2 or DHT problem due to excessive area of application.
Well, on quite few posts on this board I have read about people prefering 10% test cream over Androgel. The thought is that there is a lot of gel and therefore it have to be spread over large area to get absorbed by skin. On the other hand the larger the area the more conversion to DHT and E2.
There is consensus about it, I think.
There is another question that I have not seen addressed,
(if it was, please post a link). That is, what is the proper level of T, and how to figure it out. Some people swear by Total T, others FreeT.
Others claim that testing for FreeT or BioavailableT is (totally) unreliable when done as thru commercial labs, see my link in previous post.
The other link is trying to address the source of this inaccuracies, two different SHGB molecules, and states that FreeT and BioAvailableT, can be found via calculation using T, SHGB and Albumin as obtained from individual blood test.
People who are on Testosterone and complaining of ED are finding that their E2 is often out of sweet range of about 20. They are adjusting it with all kind of AI's. But I think the first attempt should be at getting proper T and FreeT levels, but I am not sure what they are and how they are derived. Posted ranges in LEF and other places are quite general, individual person could probably narrow this ranges down some more base on their tests, at this moment as input I see Albumin and SHGB, mostly SHGB since it bounds lot of T.
reminder, listen when 1cc speaks.
discussion on SHGB
Low SHBG is associated with insulin resistance.
High SHBG is associated with high estrogen states (e.g. with obesity) or low DHEA (e.g. with adrenal fatigue).
01-13-2007, 09:43 PM
How much zinc and what type? You should try atleast 30mg a day with food, although not higher then 100mg. The best forms of zinc are chelate and aspartate.Originally Posted by ECTOmorph
Sure you didnt apply the gel to the area you got your blood drawn?Originally Posted by glg
01-14-2007, 09:00 PM
How long do you think it would take before one was to see the effects of DIM if his E2 was too high?Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
01-15-2007, 08:46 AM
That explains why i been crashing, anxiety, joint pains no armidex for 4 weeks. LOL i can put up with another 2 weeks till i get my insurance. Dr jon would applying the cream on 2 seperate small areas be a good way to decrease the e2 conversion ie like small areas on forearms ?Originally Posted by Dr. John
01-15-2007, 11:13 AM
All About DiindolylmethaneOriginally Posted by Dr. John
"Much of the research summarized here used Dr. Zeligs' absorbcion-enhanced formulation,
often reffered as bioavailable (or absorbable) Diindolymethane."
DIM is good B-DIM is better, or it is the same?
Both DIM sources that I consider describe DIM as DIM (Di-indolyl-methane) or diindolylmethane.
The article below uses 3,3'-diindolylmethane
and then uses two short names DIM and B-DIM.
My question arised because of this quote "B-DIM, a formulated DIM with greater bioavailability"
Note that this is three months old publication.
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw, 60 Vegetarian Capsules
PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM
DIM and Prostate Health
DIM and Prostate Health
Down-regulation of androgen receptor by 3,3'-diindolylmethane contributes to inhibition of cell proliferation and induction of apoptosis in both hormone-sensitive LNCaP and insensitive C4-2B prostate cancer cells.
Bhuiyan MM, Li Y, Banerjee S, Ahmed F, Wang Z, Ali S, Sarkar FH.
Departments of Pathology and Internal Medicine, Karmanos Cancer Institute, Wayne State University School of Medicine, Detroit, Michigan 48201, USA.
Cancer Res. 2006 Oct 15;66(20):10064-72.
Despite the initial efficacy of androgen deprivation therapy, most patients with advanced prostate cancer eventually progress to hormone-refractory prostate cancer, for which there is no curative therapy. Previous studies from our laboratory and others have shown the antiproliferative and proapoptotic effects of 3,3'-diindolylmethane (DIM) in prostate cancer cells. However, the molecular mechanism of action of DIM has not been investigated in androgen receptor (AR)-positive hormone-responsive and -nonresponsive prostate cancer cells. Therefore, we investigated the effects of B-DIM, a formulated DIM with greater bioavailability, on AR, Akt, and nuclear factor kappaB (NF-kappaB) signaling in hormone-sensitive LNCaP (AR+) and hormone-insensitive C4-2B (AR+) prostate cancer cells. We found that B-DIM significantly inhibited cell proliferation and induced apoptosis in both cell lines. By Akt gene transfection, reverse transcription-PCR, Western blot analysis, and electrophoretic mobility shift assay, we found a potential crosstalk between Akt, NF-kappaB, and AR. Importantly, B-DIM significantly inhibited Akt activation, NF-kappaB DNA binding activity, AR phosphorylation, and the expressions of AR and prostate-specific antigen, suggesting that B-DIM could interrupt the crosstalk. Confocal studies revealed that B-DIM inhibited AR nuclear translocation, leading to the down-regulation of AR target genes. Moreover, B-DIM significantly inhibited C4-2B cell growth in a severe combined immunodeficiency-human model of experimental prostate cancer bone metastasis. These results suggest that B-DIM-induced cell proliferation inhibition and apoptosis induction are partly mediated through the down-regulation of AR, Akt, and NF-kappaB signaling. These observations provide a rationale for devising novel therapeutic approaches for the treatment of hormone-sensitive, but more importantly, hormone-refractory prostate cancer by using B-DIM alone or in combination with other therapeutics.
PMID: 17047070 [PubMed - in process]
01-21-2007, 09:40 PM
My E2 came in at 66. My total T was too high also, so the doc is lowering the Testosterone dosage and in then in the next visit, we will look at the E2 again.
My doc believes in getting one thing working first, before moving on to something else.
01-22-2007, 09:49 AM
Estrogen imbalances from my observation
1. homcysteine levels are 3.9 - estrogen induces hypomethylation
2. Sbhg - 22 estrodial 24 (this is on trt and blood test not taken when gel was applied first before blood drawn)
3. On TRT with adrmidex I was strong and lean 4 weeks off srmidex lost 15lbs of muscle, and hypothyroid and adrenal issues got worse. I was taking isocort awith armidex and I was fine. Stopping armidex isocort was not strong enough had to swtich to HC to counter act adrenal fatigue caused by elevated estrogen
4. anxiety levels increased dramatically
5. hair growth reduced (arm pits, arm hair, facial hair)
6. appetite dropped
7. morning wood just died
8. Constant low free testosterone
9. immune suppresion
01-22-2007, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Dr. John
My mistake. It helps in the metabolism of estrogen, at least from what I have read.
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