testosterone cream V.S sustanon which is easier on your hair

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    dobebrief
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    Wow Dr. John, do you have 6 guns on both hips? I just love the way you shoot!

    Fast and straight.

    My 3 yr old added you to her nightly prayers...

    "Dear God... Please dont let my Daddy make Dr. John mad!"

    Youre the man!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Thank you doctor.

    Now $50 question.

    Wonder if I could get clarification on DIM.
    -------
    My dose is:
    "For you, I would use 150mg BID of DIM"
    I understand that is 2x150=300mg of DIM daily

    My source of DIM will be PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM
    it content is described as:
    ..............
    Serving Size: 1 Tablet Amount/Serving %DV
    Indolplex® Complex 120 mg *
    modified food starch, 25% diindolylmethane (DIM), d-alpha tocopheryl succinate, silicon dioxide, and phosphatidylcholine
    ................
    so each tablet contains 0.25x129=40mg of DIM
    To get my 300mg/day dose
    300/40=7.5 tablets daily

    Is that correct?
    Lots of DIM isnt it??
    Have I missunderstood your directions?
    ============================== ==================
    I am not sure what to make of all the phosphatidylcholine that I will be taking with Indolplex tablets..

    With in supplements that I am already taking, there is
    Phosphatidylcholine (from soy) 150 mg
    ---
    Alpha-Glyceryl Phosphoryl Choline (A-GPC) 600 mg
    ---
    Phosphatidylserine 100 mg
    [SharpPS Gold™ Conjugated Phosphatidylserine-DHA
    (std. to 45% PS and 8% DHA) and phosphatidylserine]
    ---
    Phosphatidylcholine-Grape Seed Extract 150 mg
    [Contains 50 mg of Leucoselect® Phytosome™ grape
    seed extract (95% polyphenols) bound to 100 mg of
    phosphatidylcholine from soy]
    ---

    Please be aware taken 300 mgs of dim via indoplex you are going to end up with calcium over load there is 320 mgs of calcium per tab x 7 and you are around 2200 mgs calcoium carbonate not inlcusing multivitamin even and milk products. Basically you are going to create a zinc, magnesium, iron imbalance from taking all that. Not mentioning you re going to waste your thyroid medication as well with all of that kind of calcium carbonate (if you are taken armour)

    Dr john how do you get your 300mgs of dim a day? 150 bid but wat brand?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Didn't know that of the Indolplex product.

    I use Nick Delgado's Estroblock product. As some of you know, I served as his company's Medical Director for several years.
    Yep you learn something new every day LOL With my condition I learn to read labels to look for fillers and binder that could alte thyroid medications. After 3 years of a simple misdiagnoses I am not taking any steps to go back wards only forward and back to good health.

    So in your medical opinon DIM DOESN"T lower estrodial, but alters ESTROGEN metabolites and by products in favor better Good:bad estrogen. I still till this day have not seen any clincal studies done on rats or humans to confer this. REason I think it helps with some many people because alot of people with hormonal related problem are undermethyators and thats why they respond so good because it actually would possible help to raise Samm-e levels indirectly. Be an interesting study does DIM actually alter methylation with in the liver and increase sam-e levels by reducing the burden on the total methyation process
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    I still till this day have not seen any clincal studies done on rats or humans to confer this.
    Dear Sir,

    Clinical studies looking at serum estradiol levels before and after
    BioResponse DIM are only now in progress based on the collaboration
    between BioResponse LLC and the National Cancer Institute.
    Earlier
    published work looking at DIM in plasma generated from oral I3C showed
    no change in serum estradiol levels. What did change was an increase in
    the metabolism of Estrone the less active circulating form of estradiol.
    Increased metabolism of Estrone to 2-hydroxy Estrone was found.

    So, DIM itself is not a inhibitor of aromatase or a means to lower
    estradiol which replaces the use of arimidex. DIM can be taken in
    conjunction with arimidex. This helps maintain high 2-hydroxy estrogen
    levels which may be beneficial for the prostate gland.

    Kind regards,

    Michael A. Zeligs, M.D.
    Founder, BioResponse, LLC
    Soon....
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    Soon....
    FYI ic3 will not work with people with adrenal fatigue or hypothyroid reason being your need stomach acids to activate it to DIM. So people with low acid problems in stomach or general population of 50-60 years of age will not benefit from it at all, but will benefite from DIM

    Thats next project urine for the right ratios i mentioned to my dr and fact that i have low homocysteine levels he agreed that there could be alterations going on behind the door so to speak. But again this is only dealing with the symptoms of the cause which is the elevated histamines from Ecoli and what ever else is running rampant in my gut. histmaines will interfer with methylation and methylation is needed for proper estrogen metabolism. By taking care of the estrogen metabolism will not take care of the source, but it will help in some ways i am sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Your daughter is fortunate enough to have a father who knows how to act.

    YOU have a 3 year old?
    She turned 3 Feb 5th....(sorry were way off topic)
    I just had to show her off..shes my angel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Didn't know that of the Indolplex product.

    I use Nick Delgado's Estroblock product. As some of you know, I served as his company's Medical Director for several years.
    I found 2 estroblock products and one is trade marked and his is not. I am suprised no one has been trying to get legal rights. One looks like crap and Dr Delgado's looks alot more plain and simple then all the other big fancy names in the other one. I like the fact that his contains just dim and IC3 THAT it with no binders or anything like that.

    So here is 64 million dollar question if your estrodial levels are fine and your bad:good ratio is high could you still have problem and symptoms of elevated estrogen dispite your estrogen levels being PERFECT or would the imbalnace be shown up more an altered SHBG? Hmm i love making you have to think HAHAHa
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGELESS View Post
    She turned 3 Feb 5th....(sorry were way off topic)
    I just had to show her off..shes my angel.
    She is precious and you answered the question that all man have been wanting to know does TRT affect your ability to be infertile well you DEFINITELY proved that it does not
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcam222 View Post

    As a side note while many seem to have a decent experience with finasteride I thought my sex drive might never normalize after I took it for about a year.
    Jcam22 how much time did it take for your sex drive to come back?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Please share your reasoning behind such a statement.
    propecia is supposedly more harsh on the system than topicals, but people will try the topicals first as there are not as many side effects, but some people will turn to finasteride and the likes because they are more effective, but obviously taking more risks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    Why do you say that?

    Companies will make what sells, "hey you wanna rub this into your head every day, or just take a pill?"

    They made sustanon wich is the same principle, although some people do prefere it.
    Do you think regaine has equal effectiveness as propecia?
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    Quote Originally Posted by getreal View Post
    Do you think regaine has equal effectiveness as propecia?
    I am assuming that you mean rogaine. If so they are two different animals. Propecia systemically reduces DHT whereas Rogaine is a topical vasodilator used I believe to promote blood flow to the hair follicle to spur growth. I am not positive I am exactly right on the science of the Rogaine but close enough to explain to you the difference.

    The topical equivalent of Propecia would be a spirolactone product. In my opinion , and I believe Dr. Johns opinion as well, the topical is a preferred route of administration for this purpose. Remember that when surpressing DHT sytemically you negatively impact all the good things that a healthy DHT level brings with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcam222 View Post
    I am assuming that you mean rogaine. If so they are two different animals. Propecia systemically reduces DHT whereas Rogaine is a topical vasodilator used I believe to promote blood flow to the hair follicle to spur growth. I am not positive I am exactly right on the science of the Rogaine but close enough to explain to you the difference.

    The topical equivalent of Propecia would be a spirolactone product. In my opinion , and I believe Dr. Johns opinion as well, the topical is a preferred route of administration for this purpose. Remember that when surpressing DHT sytemically you negatively impact all the good things that a healthy DHT level brings with it.
    Yes regaine (uk) rogaine (us), quite intereting really about the blood flow however, I'd like to try spiroactone but could you provide a direct link to purchase it if you know of one, I have tried regaine extra strenth a few years back, now I would like to try a different topical to stack with my oral.
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    Quote Originally Posted by getreal View Post
    Do you think regaine has equal effectiveness as propecia?
    I dont know, havent heard of any comparisons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by getreal View Post
    Yes regaine (uk) rogaine (us), quite intereting really about the blood flow however, I'd like to try spiroactone but could you provide a direct link to purchase it if you know of one, I have tried regaine extra strenth a few years back, now I would like to try a different topical to stack with my oral.

    Oreder Spiro from Dr. Lee @ minoxidil.com.....you have to complete a consultation first and become a patient...$20...Then order....Email him w/questions and he will respond promptly...super knowledegable guy, all his ideas based on science....

    Blood flow and hairloss is a common myth/misconception....Inflammation may play a role....

    Just so you know, Spiro smells like rotten eggs, especially when combined w/minox....

    Other topical option include Spectral DNC, and the new rogaine foam....

    Dr Lee also seels his versions of minox....dry faster and cleaner w/variwed concentrations...also Xandrox, which combines w/azelic acid...

    Lots of misinformation in this thread.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    I dont know, havent heard of any comparisons.
    Studies show that they work better together, but the results are derived from opposite ends....Stop one and lose the gains associated w/its use....

    Nobody really knows exactly how/why minox works, as finasteride is unpredictable....Remember, both are the result of a side effect observed from a different application....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    No, it IS more harsh than topicals. As in, there are no sides to topicals. I have a lot of patients who have had their lives absolutely ruined (and more all the time) by taking finasteride; but not one from taking a topical.
    I gree w/you 110% about the finasteride....dangerous, unpredictable drug with unexplained effects.....Messes w/each individuals hormones and effects hairloss/growth alternately case by case.....

    I think what you meant is that topical sides are negligable in comparisom....I had to discontinue Nizoral due to side effects.....granted, it wasn't ED, but it was severe enough (super dry hair/contour irregularity) to discontinue use....

    Minox has effected me much the same way...Hypertrichosis....Also, Facial hair became coarser and grew at sporadic angles......Ironically, the fact that I got the sides indicated that I , case specifically, would benefit from maintenence/regrowth as a result of continued use...

    Some claim hormonal interference from topical spiro also....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    I would personally rather lose some hair than lose my sex drive. Hey my hair is short anyway because im in the military
    Amen. I willl never, ever sacrifice my health for the sake of vanity. And for the life of me, I can't understand why one would do so.

    Personally, Ive got mostly a full head of hair, although its started to slightly creep back, but I still shave it anyways, I feel it looks better.
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    Apparently, apples have some sort of compound in them that help prevent hairloss. Read that in quite few different places, but for the life of me I can't seem to find a link.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    No, it IS more harsh than topicals. As in, there are no sides to topicals. I have a lot of patients who have had their lives absolutely ruined (and more all the time) by taking finasteride; but not one from taking a topical.
    Their are no sides to topicals which is what I have been saying, but they will not be as effetive as the real thing which of course has more sides. A topical alone will not be of much use alone but combine them both and the effects should be great. Finasteride, Dutasteride, should be the base of a "cycle" for sombody serious who wants to keep their hair, stack it with a topical (minoxidol, nizoral ect: ) and you should get more solid results. Of course your potentially going to get more sides this way, the bigger the risk the bigger the reward, it all depends on what is more important to you and how far YOU are willing to go.
    Last edited by Dr. John; 02-15-2007 at 10:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Apparently, apples have some sort of compound in them that help prevent hairloss. Read that in quite few different places, but for the life of me I can't seem to find a link.
    .........
    Last edited by christopher; 02-15-2007 at 10:58 AM. Reason: browser history revealed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post

    I wonder if perhaps some sort of conditioner may have helped you.
    I used it in conjunction w/conditioner (emu based conditioner at that) and the only solution was to discontinue-or live w/the new look.......Took almost 2 mos. for my hair contour to return to "normal"....
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    Quote Originally Posted by christopher View Post
    .........
    yep, there is one link, thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Not true. You achieve MUCH higher concentration of DHT antagonism with a topical. IMPO, the risks of employing systemic 5-AR inhibition are far too great. Just ask any of the guys who have had their lives permanently ruined by same.

    "Think of it" as filling a tea cup in a thunderstorm with systemics, where the only place you want DHT control is at the scalp.
    Hmmm was my post edited at all? There was somthing missing in there, anyway what I'm trying to say is if topicals are more productive at blocking dht from the scalp, why do people take on the bigger risks with the pills?
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    Quote Originally Posted by getreal View Post
    Hmmm was my post edited at all? There was somthing missing in there, anyway what I'm trying to say is if topicals are more productive at blocking dht from the scalp, why do people take on the bigger risks with the pills?
    Marketing, companies send doctors pens and posters and mugs with there company name to win them over, so if there in an office with MERCK everywhere, there most likely gonna prescribe propecia over rogaine. Also, doctors want there patients to see results and delivery method plays a roll in this(patient compliance), so they prefere there patient take a pill rather then use a lotion, with doctors not knowing about chronic ED as one of the risks, in there mind they dont have a reason not to prescribe it over a lotion, but it would depend on how the doctor is with there medicines or how they view the situation(how much is the problem impacting the person and many other factors), some like to start agressive and some like to hold back and work there way up from diet to otc to presciption.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Not true. You achieve MUCH higher concentration of DHT antagonism with a topical. IMPO, the risks of employing systemic 5-AR inhibition are far too great. Just ask any of the guys who have had their lives permanently ruined by same.
    Does this mean that some guys just dont ever recover, no matter what they try? I know with me, my finasteride problems feel VERY permanaent, like someone has switched a light off in my body and it can never be turned back on.
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    Old thread, but haven't we also discussed the idea that lowering estrogen will also lower DHT on the idea that the body can produce /convert more DHT to compete with higher E?
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