Does Arimidex decrease Total E, or E2, or both?
- 12-08-2006, 09:49 PM
- 12-08-2006, 10:06 PM
- 12-08-2006, 10:09 PM
12-08-2006, 10:10 PM
12-08-2006, 10:11 PM
Why isn't Total Estrogen important in the equation of the HPTA?... My gut feeling is that it does play a big role... still confused...Originally Posted by ItsHectic
12-08-2006, 10:13 PM
Ah I wasnt thinking about HPTA, sorry have slept in a while. Not sure if it has an effect on HPTA or not.
12-09-2006, 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by BigAk
BigAk, that's precisely the question i've been trying to search an answer for. Im glad Im not the only one that's wondering what role Estrone (or Total Estrogens for that matter) has in the negative feedback loop of the HPTA, if any. I did find some interesting posts elsewhere from a doc who treats men with hormonal issues such as hypogonadism, and found a high correlation with patients' complaints of estrogen-like symptoms with elevated Total Estrogens, despite maintaining E2 in mid range. I think the problem he was having was how to lower Total Estrogens (say with an aromatase inhibitor) without lowering E2 too low, since E2 in these men were already at the desired range. Do a search on the web for Dr.Swale. Not sure if he's given up on this or not, since some of the posts are dated at least 2 years old.
Check out the thread titled "Can elevated Estrone suppress the HP?" that i did recently. In there i copy and pasted a few posts that talk about this very thing.
Do you have secondary hypogonadism too? If so, are your Total Estrogens elevated as well?
12-09-2006, 10:38 AM
Simpliest answer to this problem is most likely your liver detoxification pathways are imbalanced meaning that methylation is the primary source of estrogen detoxification followed by glucoridation. This is for all estrogens not just estrodial. So a good start would be 500 mgs of calcium d glurate 2 times a day and eat more broccoli and brussel sprout, cauliflour to aid in toxifiction. You may want to look into methylcobalin, folinin acid, NAC, TMGS, p5p. All of this must be takin in balance unless other wise clnically noted by testing because it can cause major problems. If you are hypothyroid this can cause estrogens to build up and estrogens can depress thyroid and liver function to detoxify the estrogens. Excess estrogen can cause hypomethylation if in excess as well as being in deficiency. We are bombared by enviormental toxins every day and they can over whelm our bodies with xenostreogen which can suppress our HPA. I believe a total estrogen would be a good indicator of this possible. Basically ramp up your thyroid and balance liver pathways will reduce total estrogens and possible balance out the HPA axis. might want to look into organic acids test (covered by insurance from great plains) to access your enviromental exposures. This area is highly over looked and may aid some people in returning to normal homrone statues.
How does estrogen cause cancer it interfers with the homocysteine pathway (suppresses methione synthase pathway) and causes gene mutations due to hypomethylation and hyper methylation. I have researched this for nearly 2 years and finally starting to master it and people that could barely move are now starting to get there life back again once these pathways are balanced
12-10-2006, 02:59 PM
Yes... Jawohl.. Thank you for your post. I know Dr. Swale. He's also Dr. John on this board and very famous in his field. You prob. didn't know that as you're new to this board I think. But, Yes.. I have just found your thread inquiring about the same issue here. Hopefully Dr. John would come around and shed some light on this topic.Originally Posted by Jawohl
When I did suffer from hypogonadism 4 months ago, my total estrogen was 116 on a scale of (40 - 115)... So, yea.... my total E was elevated. My E2 then was very low though <15 on scale (0 - 53). Now that I have recovered my HPTA using PCT, my E2 is 7 (same scale) but I have no idea what my total Estrogen is as I didn't have it measured. What prompted my inquiry in this thread is that my Total Testosterone levels have not gone above 300 since my last bloodwork 8 weeks ago, and I'm wondering if there could be a connection to my total Estrogen being too high originally before PCT. However, my Free T is going up; so is my bioavailable T. Maybe my body is trying to stabilize my Total E but taking a long time?? not sure!!!Originally Posted by Jawohl
12-10-2006, 03:10 PM
Wow... That's very impressively informative!!! It's interesting that you're mentioning the liver role in detoxifying the body form excessive Total Estrogen (news to me!!). It just happened that my ALT value in my very recent bloodwork has climbed up to 66 (0 - 55) which was very puzzling to me since it's always been in the normal range. Could it be that my body is trying hard to reduce my total E in an effort to reach normal equilibrium??Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
12-10-2006, 05:19 PM
Dr may want to check your homocysteine levels to see where the metabolic blockage is. Most of the time is would be due to the underactive CBS pathway which can be supported by 600 mgss NAC and 50 mgs P5P 2 times a day to aid in gluthione production, or one can use TMG as alternative pathway, but main pathway is the methionne synthase pathway (b-12/folate acid) Now here is the kicker people with liver disfunctions have a b-12 and folate serum off the chart dispite no extra supplementation reason being is because they can not convert into active forms methycobalin or folinic acid and when this happens you are opening your self up to cancer due to the malfunctioning of DNA from one celll to the next gives miss information. This is referred to as undermethylation which probably 50-60% of bodybuilders suffer from some degree or another (as do 30-40% of population). Give the fact that we play around with estrogen levels so much we are not knowing increasing our chances of cancer down the road. How may you ask. Most people cancer people are either over methylated or undermethylated research this and you will seeOriginally Posted by BigAk
cancer and methylation. It all has to do with this simple fact
Estrogen deficiency suppresses methionne synthase production and well as too much estrogen. Estrogen is not bad as long as it is balanced and kept in check. if it gets out of hand then it can cause problems
works like this
samme goes in to homocyteine which is bad
homocysteine is broken down by 3 pathways
1) CBS - p5P, magnesium activate it
2) methionne synthase - methyl b-12, folinic acid activate
3) Betatine- TMG, choline activate it
now if one of these pathways is clogged other act as back up ..The bad parts comes when methionne synthase get clogged. Betaine pathway is over whlemed and in a matter of weeks one can be depleted of choline and now where does it get the choline from? Your outer membranne of your cells ..Thats right folks your cells commit suicide and the phospholipid bi layer is broken down from phosophodytl choline in to choline. Which is extrememly dangerous an very cancer forming. Now by balancing your the 3 pathways you prevent this plus also increase gluthione production which is our main antioxident for detoxifcation of estrogen. if this is low then it goes to glucurization pathway which acids as back up for detoxification of hormones hence the idea of using calcium d glucurate to lower over all estrogen levels. Pretty neat huh. Reason I know how cancer and estrogen is related is my mom had breast cancer and takes femura. I looked at her blood tests and her homocystein is dropping and joints are killing her and did not know why, but now i do. Estrogen being blocked is causing hypomethylation as well as decreasing the amount of samme in her body which is fuel to make glucosamine in the joints resulting in sever joint pain. Dr called it getting old i call it BS. I corrected this problem by adjusting her thyroid as well as giving her 400 mgs of samme 2 times a day with proper vitamin support to all pathways as precaution it would raise it to fast. REsult joint pain gone and increased energy levels. She is 71 years old and have more energy then most 21 years old. Another intersting fact is that estrogen defieincy causes fatty liver and given estrogen cures fatty liver ..cool huh
If govement want to decrease risk of cancer by 50% or more % all they need to do is add in to food not folic acid, but rather folinic acid and methy cobalin would take care alot of problems.
Here reason why in order to end up with folinic acid you need copper, zinc, magesium, b2., b5, vitamin C. Given the population is already 90% mineral defieinct of magnesium you can see where this would correct the problem.
12-11-2006, 07:37 PM
I need to take time and study your posts some more, but if I want to get some help in the mean time;Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
I would like to say that my high Total estogens may be helped by Armour Thyroid, right?
Total Estrogens------------------------------ ---260 pg/mL (40-115) LE’s Optimal Range: 40–77 pg/mL
estrone, serum------------------------------- ----78 pg/mL (12-72)
Estradiol, sensitive--------------------------- ----27 pg/mL (3-70) LE’s Optimal Range: 10–30 pg/mL
(TSH)-------------------------- --1.89 uIU/mL (0.350-5.5)
Free triiodothyroxine (T3)----------------- --2.9 pg/mL (2.3-4.2)
Total T3------------------------------------------ ---104 ng/dL (85-205)
Free T4(direct)-------------------------------- --1.37 ng/dL (0.61-1.76)
My Ft3 is in lower half of a range, I should raise it at least above 3.4 or better yet above 3.7, 3.9 would be ideal;right?
3.825 <--FT3 start of upper 25%
3.667 <--FT3 start of upper 33%
3.350 <--FT3 start of upper 50%
12-12-2006, 09:47 AM
That's what I thought originally actually. During this blood draw, I happened to have just had a very painful lower back injury which took place squatting in the gym. This injury presisted for a while now, but it's getting much better lately. You're right Dr. John; I think the tissue breakdown and rebuilding may have increased my ALT values. Also, I had started taking 1 gram of vitamin C daily.Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-12-2006, 09:52 AM
Dr. John; you have explained to me a while back why the total E was not a valid assay for adult males, but I didn't really grasp it fully. Could you please explain this again? I know that many have wondered why... Thank you.Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-12-2006, 10:58 AM
In a previous post it was noted that 300 mgs DIM and 500 mgs TMG could help reduce the bad estrogen if one is concerned about carcinagenic effects.
12-12-2006, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by Dr. John
I think what BigAk is probably asking is what makes it an invalid assay for males.
Some questions that come to mind are "What were Labcorp,Quest and other Labs thinking when they came up with the reference range for Total Estrogens in males?"
And "If the tendency is for laboraties to go ultra-conservative when it comes to reference ranges, so as to avoid having too much of the population in an "abnormal" state therefore labeling a huge chunk of hypogonadics, hypothyroidics, and those with adrenal fatigue as "normal", why would they reverse that trend by creating a reference range that makes the majority of men show up with elevated Total Estrogens?"
And also.. "If the Total Estrogen assay is completely worthless in males, why is it of any use to females? What makes it credible there?"
The list of questions grows, but in deference to you and your busy schedule, I won't ask any of them.
12-12-2006, 12:56 PM
Why don't they just come up with new healther ranges to prevent and treat problems based upon age groups rather then population as a whole. Opps "your in range" we can not treat your thyroid heres paxil ..give me a break
12-13-2006, 08:48 PM
12-14-2006, 07:37 PM
So we have at least two popular blood tests that are worthless;Originally Posted by Jawohl
Please add to the list.
12-14-2006, 07:40 PM
12-14-2006, 09:02 PM
Is E2 at 7 -- (3 - 70) too low to cause any adverse health effects? My lipid profile seems pretty good... even at this level.
12-15-2006, 01:34 PM
To low for me I do much better at 20 pg/ml are you taking anything to keep E2 down or anything that can lower it.Originally Posted by BigAk
12-16-2006, 09:21 AM
No Phil... I'm taking nothing at all. Actually I feel pretty good on this value. My morning wood is good and my erection is excellent since my SHBG have gone from 48 to 28 yeilding more bioavailable Test. and free Test.Originally Posted by pmgamer18
12-16-2006, 11:44 AM
We learn lots from you Dr. John. I look forward to our upcoming follow-up consult next week; once I schedule it with Kim this Monday. I have quite a few questions. Thank you..Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-16-2006, 11:55 AM
Not every test my Dr. does a test every 6 weeks the last time we did SHBG it was the first of the yr. It was 22 range 7 - 50 nmol/l. And E2 was 15 pm/ml at that time. We should be checking every test you think. In the past we had to do high doses of T and HCG to keep my levels up. Now that we are treating my low Cortisol levels and Thyroid I am not useing up the meds as fast so we started cutting down on the dose. My T shot went from down from 65mgs to 50mgs every 3 days and my HCG we just dropped down from 400 IUs the 2 days each in between my T shot to 250 IU's. In 6 weeks we will test again and if all is good and it feels like it is we will cut the HCG to 250 IU's the day before my next T shot. I am finding so far my levels are still the same as we needed to keep them over the yrs. but now we can do this on less.Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-16-2006, 12:57 PM
12-16-2006, 01:37 PM
Would you please discuss this relationship of E2 to SHBG Dr. John, and why it is so?Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-16-2006, 02:00 PM
Thanks I will be sure to have this on my Hormon assays from now on. At the time this test was done I was on 1mg of Arimidex a day and doing my shots once a week. All I know is this is dam hard to conrtol this E2. It may well be doing .5mgs. of Arimidex every other day is not enough.Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-16-2006, 06:05 PM
No problem Dr. John. I understand; you're a very busy guy. Again; I appreciate all your help.Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-16-2006, 07:07 PM
Dr John this could be absolutely crucial to me and why I have failed on TRT for two years.Originally Posted by Dr. John
My SHBG is low being 11 to 12 nmol/l in a range of 12-78.
I have never felt well irrespective of the method of TRT, no matter what the level of replacement and no matter how good testosterone has appeared.
My estradiol has been between in the last few months has been between 118pmol/l and 148pmol/l in a range upto 200.
I developed gynecomastia which has been removed, but might be coming back. I have severe symptoms of T deficiency.
Even when treated with arimidex to lower my estardiol to 70pmol/l I have still felt ill.
I have worried as to whether I should take arimidex because i have osteoporosis.....but!!!
Well if what your saying is the case could it be that my estradiol level is greatly amplified bythe very low SHBG level and that this is the problem????
I can't begin to explain how important this could be to me...
12-16-2006, 10:29 PM
Do you mean low as in below range or low normal?Originally Posted by Dr. John
I think most people have SHBG in the low 20s.
So for SHBG to be 20 and E2 to be 20 that would be ideal wouldnt it? or should E2 maybe be 15 in that case?
12-17-2006, 07:34 AM
Dr John could you take a look at my post and tell me what you think?
Also if I have an SHBG of 11 or 12nmol/l right at the bottom of the range what would be a remotely reasonable E2 and testosterone level likely to be.
So far no combination has worked and I always end up with low libido, ed and really bad symtpoms of T deficiency.
12-17-2006, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by Dr. John
Interesting--here's my SHBG from November is last year :
SHBG : 17 ( 10 - 73 )
And my E2 from this year (too bad I didn't have both tested at once this year)
Estradiol-17B : 93 men : 42-151
12-17-2006, 11:54 AM
Back some yrs. ago when I did not know about high E2 my Total T #'s were good but my Free T was low normal all the time. When I tested my E2 and got it down my Free T went way up so this means my SHBG went down. Now I don't know if lower normal levels of SHBG are bad or good sounds like a double edge sword. What happened when I got my E2 down taking Arimidex is it drove down my SHBG. So I guess my next question is what are good levels for SHBG.
12-17-2006, 04:54 PM
SHBG 13.8 nmol/L (13.0-71.0) 31/07/06Originally Posted by yeoc
Oestradiol 128 pmol/L (0-206) 31/07/06 (35 in US units)
+everything else healthy on Dr John's full initial labwork recommendation from "TRT a recipe for success"
I can explain how important this could be to me.....
From the age of 15 (I'm now 33) I've had zero libido and serious ED. The effect on my life has been huge. Only one (failed) relationship, serious lack of confidence, family (immediate and extended) thinking I'm gay. Not being able to do anything about a girls advances, blushing etc etc etc...
Sorry if this is a little too much (especially for a first post) but this info just might change my life forever.
yeoc, I feel your pain.
12-18-2006, 10:14 AM
So we have at least three (or mre) dimensional relationship:Originally Posted by Dr. John
Would you please elaborate, possibly present a table with desirable values, specially how they change when,
hard to adjust SHGB is a certail levels.
when SHGB is between A and B
E2 should be between AX and BY
T should be between AXa and BYb
when SHGB is between B and C
E2 should be between BX and CY
T should be between BXa and CYb
12-18-2006, 10:33 AM
You guys are asking alot of Dr. John. He's a very busy man; and some of your questions can't have simple answers. Nothing is set in stone when it comes to numbers you know. Therefore, I would imagine that it's hard to conclude final certain values for the question above without doing a very involved study that will record how people feel in relation to their numbers. It's easy to understand as Dr. John puts it; that lowering SHGB means that more testosterone and E2 is bioavailable and free. I don't know... but I would think it's hard to put final numbers for the above question.Originally Posted by JanSz
To be fair to Dr. John and his expertise, it would be more suitable to consult him privately as everyone is different and will require customized treatment.... Just my 2 cents....
12-18-2006, 10:52 AM
Sorry, this is discusion board, I just learned that this three way or more relationship is strong and important.Originally Posted by BigAk
I hope my question is not of the type that may be forbidden on ths board.
Dr. John is free to answer or ignore my question.
One of his answers, indeed, may be that hi knows the real answer but he makes a living out of that knownledge.
12-18-2006, 12:55 PM
==========================Originally Posted by JanSz
SHBG is itself determined by multiple hormones including:
Hormones that increase SHBG: estrogens, thyroid, progesterone
Hormones that reduce SHBG: testosterone, DHEA, insulin, growth hormone, other androgens
but to do any adjustments one needs to know desirable ranges
add on please
12-27-2006, 06:36 PM
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