Why is Armour thyroid sometimes intolerable?

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    Why is Armour thyroid sometimes intolerable?


    I had issues tolerating Armour ( a couple times)and had to come off. I'm waiting to get tested for adrenal issues, but in the meantime I'm wondering why many people have problems.
    I assumed it was the T3, but one grain of Armour only has 9mcg T3 along with 38mcg T4 along with unmeasured T2,T1, and soforth. You see guys ramping up T3 cycles starting at 25mcg and going up to over 100 with no adrenal issues. I've also in the past taken many stimulants in excess such as ECA, Clen, NYC, with no problem. Any comments?--Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by raw1973
    I had issues tolerating Armour ( a couple times)and had to come off. I'm waiting to get tested for adrenal issues, but in the meantime I'm wondering why many people have problems.
    I assumed it was the T3, but one grain of Armour only has 9mcg T3 along with 38mcg T4 along with unmeasured T2,T1, and soforth. You see guys ramping up T3 cycles starting at 25mcg and going up to over 100 with no adrenal issues. I've also in the past taken many stimulants in excess such as ECA, Clen, NYC, with no problem. Any comments?--Rob
    Go to this site and read the site it has all you need to know about this. You need cortisol to carry the thyroid hormones from the blood to the cells. If cortisol is low then the hormones build up in the blood as you up the dose and you feel like this.
    Stop The Thyroid Madness Index Page
    Phil
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    But wont taking cortisol prevent that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinn
    But wont taking cortisol prevent that?
    If you mean taking cortisol will prevent the Thyroid meds from building up in the blood Yes if your on enough of it. Yet one needs to do there temps 3 times a day and do an avg. if from day to day they are not going up and down on your chart then this means your cortisl is at a good level and then if you need more Armour this would be the time to up the dose but only go up 15mgs at a time so as not to stress your adrenals.
    Phil
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18
    If you mean taking cortisol will prevent the Thyroid meds from building up in the blood Yes if your on enough of it. Yet one needs to do there temps 3 times a day and do an avg. if from day to day they are not going up and down on your chart then this means your cortisl is at a good level and then if you need more Armour this would be the time to up the dose but only go up 15mgs at a time so as not to stress your adrenals.
    Phil
    Get a cortisol salvia test done for a starting point instead of trying to self diagnose one self. 2 people i know are screwed up now by playing dr and luckily one of them i am working to reverse. Other one is now type 1 diabetic. if you know what you are doing fantastic progrrmer and i have experience with this if you need help, but not to many MD do or are understanding. Check thyroid top drs for best references
    hope this helps. Balance the liver corrects or supports many of problems we face today. If you have insurance get Organic acid test /amino acid profile done by great plains (they are covered by blue cross and other insurance) and see where you are out of balance. That is how mine was detected i had a folic acid deficiency despite having so much folate in my blood.
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    I am under a Dr.'s care and all the testing is still on going sense we found I am Hypopituitary. From what I have seen there are not many Top Dr.'s around. I am always telling people to not play Dr. And you would not believe how many do this. I will run this by my Dr. when I see him in 2 weeks.
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
    Get a cortisol salvia test done for a starting point instead of trying to self diagnose one self. 2 people i know are screwed up now by playing dr and luckily one of them i am working to reverse. Other one is now type 1 diabetic. if you know what you are doing fantastic progrrmer and i have experience with this if you need help, but not to many MD do or are understanding. Check thyroid top drs for best references
    hope this helps. Balance the liver corrects or supports many of problems we face today. If you have insurance get Organic acid test /amino acid profile done by great plains (they are covered by blue cross and other insurance) and see where you are out of balance. That is how mine was detected i had a folic acid deficiency despite having so much folate in my blood.
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    Prgrrmer
    look into liver detoxifcation panel by great smokies it will show pathway blockages. Amino acid test is good for finding hidden nutrient defiency (not actually but functional) It took me almost 2 years to master what i have learned and comprehend it, but it has already helped several people.
    if you want to learn about the body study autism and then you will learn to understand how the human body really works and how to over ride blockages. BEst mineral testing I found so far was spectra cell intracellular testing finally caught my zinc deficeincy that I had been complainig about for 2 years and drs telling me it was all in my head

    Here are things i recommned
    organic acid/amino acid test by great plains
    liver detoxifcation from great smokies
    stool testing by diangostic labs seattle washington
    food allergies IGE, IGA, iGG - great smokies
    salvia cortisol testing - ZRT, canary, smokies

    hope this helps




    Phil[/QUOTE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Are you sensitive to pork?
    That's funny, the doctor that prescribed me the Armour asked the same thing.
    No, I eat pork all the time. I'm pretty sure I had adrenal issues. Symptoms were abdominal and flank pain, fatigue, dizziness and feeling faint, and an obvious increase in allergies. But i'm curious about the T3 alone as compared to the combined thyroid in Armour. I see guys ramping up much quicker on the T3 alone with no adrenal problems. I wonder how I would do on a small amount of T3 just to bring my temperature and metabolism up.
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    1 grain of Armour is equal to 100 mcg of T-3. I wonder if it isn't too much for you?
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    Here is what Dr. Marianco says about Armour.
    Phil

    The human body has a ratio of about 10% T3, 90% T4.

    Armour Thyroid is about 20% T3, 80 % T4. This can cause problems with some people, who cannot tolerate well the activity of the much more potent T3 than T4.

    Often, what makes Armour Thyroid intolerable is the presence of Adrenal Fatigue/Depletion. Thyroid hormone makes more demands on adrenal function. If the adrenals cannot tolerate the extra workload, then they worsen in fatigue/depletion. This leads to a surge in norepinephrine or other stimulant neurotransmitter production, which leads to anxiety, irritability, hypertension, tachycardia, sweating, and other effects in addition to symptoms of adrenal fatigue.

    Armour Thyroid also contains an unspecified amount of Calcitonin - which lowers blood calcium level. Lowering blood calcium excessively in patients can cause multiple problems including irritability, confusion, muscle spasms, congestive heart failure, breathing problems, etc.

    Armour Thyroid also contains T1 and T2, which have additional thyroid activities - thus a larger overall activity than just from T3 and T4 - the only hormone specified in Armour Thryoid.

    Thus one has to be careful and have ideally, physician monitoring, to help determine what is happening when one has adverse effects from Armour Thyroid. Armour Thyroid is a much more complex compound that just T3 and T4.

    Not everyone can tolerate Armour Thyroid, no matter how small the dose. For some patients, I would use Synthroid (T4) and try to optimize thyroid function via other means if they cannot tolerate Armour Thyroid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    It's nice how Marianco takes the time to really explore these topics. It's a huge and admirable commitment from his already-too-busy day.

    My good friend Dr. Neal Rouzier, who I call the King of Thyroid (hint, hint--for those of you awaiting the Guest Lecturer Series) told me he has prescribed thyroid to literally thousands of patients, without a single issue from adrenal cause.

    He also says all this estrogen/thyroid interaction stuff everyone is always talking about is of no consequence. It's hard to argue with his incredible extensive experience.

    IMPO calcitonin is not really a concern. What does it do? Bone mineral deposition. A good thing, indeed. We need adequate calcium intake.

    The T1 and T2 make the natural product Armour much more bioidentical, IMPO.

    If no sensitivity to pork is in play, and a patient has an issue with Armour, look to other causes. But usually if you can tolerate holding the dose for a few days, things will quiet down. Since I always "start low/go slow" with thyroid (and adrenal) no one is really in any danger from a huge dosage increase.

    But if you can increase enzyme D1, which converts T4 to T3, then you can avoid excessive T3 supplementation. For instance, DHEA can help with this--but can also cause problems if both Armour and DHEA are concurrently initiated.
    Zinc, selenium, copper, vitamin E, iron, gluthione are also involved with the conversion of t4-t3 so a good multimineral would help as well providing you are getting proper absorption, and assimulation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by raw1973
    That's funny, the doctor that prescribed me the Armour asked the same thing.
    No, I eat pork all the time. I'm pretty sure I had adrenal issues. Symptoms were abdominal and flank pain, fatigue, dizziness and feeling faint, and an obvious increase in allergies. But i'm curious about the T3 alone as compared to the combined thyroid in Armour. I see guys ramping up much quicker on the T3 alone with no adrenal problems. I wonder how I would do on a small amount of T3 just to bring my temperature and metabolism up.

    I agree with Marianco and think you going with T3 alone is exactly oppisite what Marianco says in that T3 is more adrenal exhausting than T4.Think T4 gradually converts to T3 so no adrenal "shock" so to speak.
    Let me see hear:human body-10% T3
    armour thyroid(pork)-20%T3
    yep armour's got more T3 than we normally produce even though I'll bet armour being a natural product varies on how T3 is actually present depending on how much iodine,tyrosine ect. is in the porkers feed.
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    When he said "intolerable" I immediatly assumed hyperthyroid symptoms which is what I thought happened to most(or so I thought) people when going above maintenance levels on thyroid.Underdosing wouldn't be any more "intolerable" than being hypothyroid itself or so I assume.Maybe he meant first starting thyroid?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FYI777
    When he said "intolerable" I immediatly assumed hyperthyroid symptoms which is what I thought happened to most(or so I thought) people when going above maintenance levels on thyroid.Underdosing wouldn't be any more "intolerable" than being hypothyroid itself or so I assume.Maybe he meant first starting thyroid?
    when I said "intolerable" the meaniing was "adrenal fatigue
    symptoms" of fatigue, confusion, low blood pressure,( dropping from lying to standing) allergies, among other probable symptoms. I took HC with Armour for trial to see if there was a difference and I definetely tolerated the thyroid better, but had some weird occular migraines and decided to come off and get proper adrenal testing. My fault may have been to up my armour too quickly. I started at .5 grain after a week went up to 1 grain then had ocullar migraines for a couple days in a row. Hadn't had them in several years.Probably due to hormonal fluctuation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by raw1973
    when I said "intolerable" the meaniing was "adrenal fatigue
    symptoms" of fatigue, confusion, low blood pressure,( dropping from lying to standing) allergies, among other probable symptoms. I took HC with Armour for trial to see if there was a difference and I definetely tolerated the thyroid better, but had some weird occular migraines and decided to come off and get proper adrenal testing. My fault may have been to up my armour too quickly. I started at .5 grain after a week went up to 1 grain then had ocullar migraines for a couple days in a row. Hadn't had them in several years.Probably due to hormonal fluctuation.
    I started on Isocort first did 8 pills then went on armour 45mgs. I charted my temps and was able to go up 15mgs every 2 weeks now at 2.5 grains and doing 5mgs of HC 4x's a day. I have yet to have a problem doing this. I am going up 15mgs until I get to 3 grains then I am going to hold at this for 6 to 8 weeks I just got my tests today and still Free T3 is low mid. range.
    Phil
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    I tried again- horrible reaction!


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Let's think about this for a second:

    Those who benefit from Armour Thyroid do so because they have too little T3 compared to their T4. Get the point?
    Well here are my latest labs-
    Antibodies: TPO >1000
    Tga 35 ( Range- <20)
    FT3 292 (230-420)
    FT4 1.3 (.8-1.8)
    TSH 2.05 (.4-5.5)

    Haven't been on any meds for over 6weeks, waiting to get cortisol tests. Skin has been very dry with lots of brain fog and visual problems. T3 being in the lower/ mid range and antibodies, made me want to try the Armour again.
    Blood pressure has been good lately, from lying to standing, so I thought my adrenals were in strong enough to tolerate low dose armour. Took smallest amount(15mg) and two hours later had racing heart, anxiety and panic. Lasted for several hours and today I'm in a daze. I don't know what to do, I took some Isocort hoping to help support adrenals, but now I'll have to wait a couple weeks to test adrenals. This was such a small amount, last time I started at double this dose and was able to increase to full grain before having problems.
    Any suggestions or comments?
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    One of the guys at the H2 group found this link a good read.
    http://www.drrind.com/forms/wp_metabolic_seminar.pdf
    Phil

    Quote Originally Posted by raw1973
    Well here are my latest labs-
    Antibodies: TPO >1000
    Tga 35 ( Range- <20)
    FT3 292 (230-420)
    FT4 1.3 (.8-1.8)
    TSH 2.05 (.4-5.5)

    Haven't been on any meds for over 6weeks, waiting to get cortisol tests. Skin has been very dry with lots of brain fog and visual problems. T3 being in the lower/ mid range and antibodies, made me want to try the Armour again.
    Blood pressure has been good lately, from lying to standing, so I thought my adrenals were in strong enough to tolerate low dose armour. Took smallest amount(15mg) and two hours later had racing heart, anxiety and panic. Lasted for several hours and today I'm in a daze. I don't know what to do, I took some Isocort hoping to help support adrenals, but now I'll have to wait a couple weeks to test adrenals. This was such a small amount, last time I started at double this dose and was able to increase to full grain before having problems.
    Any suggestions or comments?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    I'll just add that I have attended lectures by several of the top Thought Leaders in this field, and have never heard mention of the tiny amount of calcitonin in Armour Thyroid presenting a problem for anyone.
    Did you find this in the above link I posted I did not post this in my words. And I can't believe that link I posted when I read it the first time it was not this long. Wow I missed over half of it my PC most not have opened it all the way.
    Phil
  

  
 

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