Please help me with my blood test results

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  1. Please help me with my blood test results


    My background: I'm an 18 year old male and have been lifting for the past 1.5-2 years. Since about a year I've been noticing decreased libido, virtually no attraction to the other sex and a feeling of indifference (towards people/friends in general. I realise that this impression is subjective and may have different explanations but after roaming the boards and hearing about the symptoms of low T, I decided to have a blood test done (2 months ago). I don't have it right here but the numbers were something like:
    Testosterone: 270 or 280 ng/dl (low end of normal range);
    Free T was also tested. I just remember it being barely above the low end (Edit: 9.3 ng/l; normal range: 8.8-27).
    All else was Ok except for creatine kinase, which is imho explained by breakdown of muscle tissue. That doc said everything's fine, but I didn't agree and argued with my mother (who's a pediatrician) until she sent me to an andrologist at the university hospital. It seemed to me as if the prof didn't listen to me at all, he would just go through his list, pointing out that my protein shake in the morning and creatine use could be to blame due to some contaminations and that no one could ever make him drink that.
    Anyway, today I got a letter with the results:
    To make it brief I quote his comment at the end (loosely translated from German):
    "The symptoms described by you... aren't caused by a lack of the peripheral androgen, as the level of the peripheral androgen is in the very high normal range (!!!).
    Note:
    Contrary to the first blood test, no free testosterone was measured.
    Total T (this time 300 ng/dl) and SHBG (9.20 nml/l, below normal range) were calculated into the "free androgen index".
    And to top it, I quote: "The elevated level of creatine kinase and a marginally low level of HDL-Cholesterol (37 mg/dl) are conspicuous. This indicates a possible exogenic use of androgenic drugs(!!!). This may also explain the marginal level of Estradiol (98.3 pg/ml) as well as the elevated GPT."
    Note: , I've never touched AS!
    "...Therapeutically, it is recommended to cease the supplementation of protein and the intake of creatinine, as well as to reduce physical strain. At the moment there is a cardiovascular risk for a coronary heart disease, advice regarding further action is necessary". I'm speechless. Need advice.
    ps: I wasn't sure where to put this thread, but the anti-aging/testosterone related issues category seems to fit best.
    Thanks for your help.


  2. lol find a new doctor

    ur one year younger than me and ur T levels are even lower than mine, so i can imagine how "dead" you feel
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by ECTOmorph
    lol find a new doctor

    ur one year younger than me and ur T levels are even lower than mine, so i can imagine how "dead" you feel
    yeah, I noticed your thread right after posting mine. I'm glad I'm not the only one at my age who has to go through this.
    But back to topic: That doctor was really stubborn as a mule. I'm not attacking his test results (which seem suspicious though), but he was that kind of unfriendly person you don't want to meet. What really perplexes me is his opinion on supplements! I got to admit that I dont think much of him but explain that to my mother. After all he's a prof.
    I feel as if I'm stuck in a dead end. And the results of that second
    test are freaking me out! Maybe someone could interpret them, so that I'll be prepared for my next appointment.
  4. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by lowvolume
    I quote: "The elevated level of creatine kinase and a marginally low level of HDL-Cholesterol (37 mg/dl) are conspicuous. This indicates a possible exogenic use of androgenic drugs(!!!). This may also explain the marginal level of Estradiol (98.3 pg/ml) as well as the elevated GPT."
    I'm no Dr but I believe it could be the inverse. Low levels of HDL (good cholesterol) could be contributing to your low T levels. The low T levels could be the trigger for elevated E2. The body wants to produce more test and its producing elevated E2 to trigger the body to produce T to balance the T/E2 ratio.

    BTW, what is your body composition and activity level? Lean, obese, sedentary, active, etc?

    Consider looking into your diet and its healthy fat content. It may need to have increased amounts of EFAs (healthy fats) like EVOO, fish oils, Flax Seed oils, and other healthy fats. This in turn may improve your HDL and indirectly improve your T and as a result your E2.

    JMHO
    Life is a terminal condition.

    She thinks that happiness is a mat that sits on her doorway.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by B5150
    BTW, what is your body composition and activity level? Lean, obese, sedentary, active, etc?

    Consider looking into your diet and its healthy fat content. It may need to have increased amounts of EFAs (healthy fats) like EVOO, fish oils, Flax Seed oils, and other healthy fats. This in turn may improve your HDL and indirectly improve your T and as a result your E2.

    JMHO
    I'm very lean at 1.73m and 150 pounds. I'd say that I'm rather active during the week since I'm still occupied with school; go to school by bike.
    I introduced flax oil to my diet some months ago and also brought up the role of "good fats" when talking to the doctor but he told me that I shouldn't bother about it (Still taking flax oil).

    Quote Originally Posted by B5150
    I'm no Dr but I believe it could be the inverse. Low levels of HDL (good cholesterol) could be contributing to your low T levels. The low T levels could be the trigger for elevated E2. The body wants to produce more test and its producing elevated E2 to trigger the body to produce T to balance the T/E2 ratio.
    JMHO
    Hmm I understand your reasoning but didn't he come to the conclusion that my level of free T was exceptionally high (Which completely contradicts the results of the first test)?
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  6. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by lowvolume
    Hmm I understand your reasoning but didn't he come to the conclusion that my level of free T was exceptionally high (Which completely contradicts the results of the first test)?
    "The symptoms described by you... aren't caused by a lack of the peripheral androgen, as the level of the peripheral androgen is in the very high normal range (!!!).
    Note:
    Contrary to the first blood test, no free testosterone was measured."

    What evidence does he have to draw this conclusion.

    BTW very lean at 150lb. How tall are you?
    Life is a terminal condition.

    She thinks that happiness is a mat that sits on her doorway.

  7. What about total cholesterol, triglycerides, ect. If you have high cholesterol, triglycerides then you might want to look towards inuslin imbalances as well as adrenal/thyroid as well. With out knowing your Estrodial you can not get total horomone picture. Adrenal fatigue is very common and should be investigated with salvia testing. Your profile is very similar to mine at the begnining and then all hell broke loose because drs tend to skip a few test here and there. Dhea -s level would be a nice test to add too. Get to an open minded dr that is willing to investigate thoroughly. My testosteone was down to 20 at one time and morons never even tested for estrogen problems..

  8. Quote Originally Posted by B5150
    BTW very lean at 150lb. How tall are you?
    At 1.73M, he is just over 5' 8".
  9. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    5'8"+ and 150lbs. Consider putting on some weight and doing some resistence training? Hormones, diet, training and mood do go hand in hand. One or more promotes the other to a good degree.

    Anyway, I'm not a Dr, but 5'8" and 150lbs seems unhealthy to me. I mean no disrespect. Eat, train be happy
    Life is a terminal condition.

    She thinks that happiness is a mat that sits on her doorway.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by B5150
    "The symptoms described by you... aren't caused by a lack of the peripheral androgen, as the level of the peripheral androgen is in the very high normal range (!!!).
    Note:
    Contrary to the first blood test, no free testosterone was measured."

    What evidence does he have to draw this conclusion.

    BTW very lean at 150lb. How tall are you?
    Total T (this time 300 ng/dl) and SHBG (9.20 nml/l, below normal range) were calculated into the "free androgen index"
    --> The FAI seems to be his evidence. Btw, isn' the FAI inferior to a "direct" measurement of free testosterone?

    Quote Originally Posted by B5150
    5'8"+ and 150lbs. Consider putting on some weight and doing some resistence training? Hormones, diet, training and mood do go hand in hand. One or more promotes the other to a good degree.

    Anyway, I'm not a Dr, but 5'8" and 150lbs seems unhealthy to me. I mean no disrespect. Eat, train be happy
    Why is it unhealthy? I always thought my body height/weight ratio was perfectly normal. I've already been lifting for 1.5 years btw.
    Edit: Just to clarify it, 68-69 kgs ~ 150 pounds, or am I wrong?
  11. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Like I said, I mean no disrespect at all. But 150lbs seems quite light for a 5'8" male. Just my opinion, FWIW, and not to be taken as deragatory by any means.

    My point was that to whatever degree of leaness or low(er) body weight you are at can significantly effect hormone levels. My thought in making the suggestion that you might be a bit light is that if you increae your bodyweight you may find some relief to some symptoms and or test results. I could be wrong and am not suggesting or advising either way. JMHO.
    Life is a terminal condition.

    She thinks that happiness is a mat that sits on her doorway.
  12. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar
    Life is a terminal condition.

    She thinks that happiness is a mat that sits on her doorway.

  13. I would look into overtraining and adrenal fatigue. Still, your doc needs to go if he isnt even going to help you with advice etc. How often do you excercise, how intense and how stressed/stimmed up are you?

    also, look into your thyroid as well. Of course, Fsh and LH would help to know why your test is so low.

    Im 23, so not much older and am in similar circumstances. Im on androgel now but not sure if its the right bet. I just picked up some isocort for adrenal fatigue so we'll see how that goes.

  14. Im confused, his total T is only 300, and everyone is saying it could thyroid or adrenals?
  15. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Everyone? No.
    Life is a terminal condition.

    She thinks that happiness is a mat that sits on her doorway.

  16. Well I didnt mean it literally, but the gist of the conversation is to look at other reasons such as overtraing etc, but 300 is really low.

    I am at 550ng/dl wich is the levels of a 50-60 year old. He is at 300 wich is the levels of someone if they were 100+ years of age, its off the chart. ref: Center For Clinical Age Management - Natural Hormone Replacement, Boca Raton Florida.
  17. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    I know you didn't. I agree that he is low for his age.

    These forums are very limited in their ability to help people when there are underlying matters that only a doctor and a lab can diagnose.
    Life is a terminal condition.

    She thinks that happiness is a mat that sits on her doorway.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Scottyo
    I would look into overtraining and adrenal fatigue. Still, your doc needs to go if he isnt even going to help you with advice etc. How often do you excercise, how intense and how stressed/stimmed up are you?

    also, look into your thyroid as well. Of course, Fsh and LH would help to know why your test is so low.

    Im 23, so not much older and am in similar circumstances. Im on androgel now but not sure if its the right bet. I just picked up some isocort for adrenal fatigue so we'll see how that goes.
    One way to figure out overtaining is to check pulse, day after workout, in the morning up on awakening.

    I have only heard about it. Welcome more details.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic
    Im confused, his total T is only 300, and everyone is saying it could thyroid or adrenals?


    Yes, because the CNS is all interelated, and adrenal fatigue or thyroid problems can CAUSE low test.

    All we have is a test that says his testosterone is low. If we had his fsh and lh, it could point to pituitary concerns or somewhere else. But if you havent noticed, the significant number of 18-21 year old males who are showing up again and again with low test values is in itself telling. It is NOT normal for someone this age to have such low values, and if he has not used any androgens...something must be causing it. Instead of jumping the gun and saying its all low test, get this kid on TRT, how about looking at what is CAUSING the low test? Since he hasn't had a mri on the pituitary (another important thing to be done....but which often checks out A-ok), I asked about information he could provide without any more tests, any more studies etc.
  20. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Yes, but at the end of the day, he (his parents in this case) and his physician need to seek do the actual diagnosis and establish any and all treatment protocol.

    This virtual-cyber-self-diagnosis-and-treatment-protocol we engage in on these forums is....well, just that.

    Get a Dr that will treat you completely and thoroughly.
    Life is a terminal condition.

    She thinks that happiness is a mat that sits on her doorway.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by B5150
    Like I said, I mean no disrespect at all. But 150lbs seems quite light for a 5'8" male. Just my opinion, FWIW, and not to be taken as deragatory by any means.

    My point was that to whatever degree of leaness or low(er) body weight you are at can significantly effect hormone levels. My thought in making the suggestion that you might be a bit light is that if you increae your bodyweight you may find some relief to some symptoms and or test results. I could be wrong and am not suggesting or advising either way. JMHO.
    @B5150
    I didn't mean to offend you either, I was just a bit surprised at your opinion. Anyway, the thing is that I'm rather ectomorphic by nature and have a hard time putting on even an ounce of fat. I've read similar studies on that issue but on the other hand, if I think back, I've always been lean since my early childhood but haven't always felt the way I do now.

    http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/7030/cimg048wc2.png

    And youre right: It's pointless to debate over what may cause low test, which is apparently a very complex issue.
    I think I should have clarified it from the beginning: At the moment I'm torn between the results of my first and second test (read my first post). If the second blood picture was right (compare it to the first one), it would actually mean that I have VERY HIGH free testosterone levels, despite constant (low) Total T levels! How can that be? Maybe Dr. John could give his opinion.
    BTW, FSH, LH, Prolaction.. everything was tested and as far as I know in the normal range. The only abnormal values are those that I've posted above (testosterone, estradiol, cholesterol,...). So in the case that it REALLY is low test
    that is causing my problems, I would suspect it to be stress induced.
    @Scottyo: I train 3 times a week, it's a 2 Day low volume(1-max. 3 sets p.b.p.)/high intensity Split. A single training session takes about 45 minutes. No signs of overtraining so far. I don't train if I don't feel well for some reason.

  22. it looks like you are either hypogonadal or some external factor is causing a huge drop - thyroid is a fair bet. blood sugar is easy to find out, but i dont think it's related. do you have a beard to speak of? are your testicles relatively large? are your genitals "man-sized"? (i'm not kidding). do you have body hair?

    anyway - go see a good endo. we are all speculating here.
  23. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by lowvolume
    @B5150
    I didn't mean to offend you either, I was just a bit surprised at your opinion.
    Hey, opinions are like *******s and I've heard I am too. That's not just speculation
    Life is a terminal condition.

    She thinks that happiness is a mat that sits on her doorway.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by lowvolume
    @B5150
    I didn't mean to offend you either, I was just a bit surprised at your opinion. Anyway, the thing is that I'm rather ectomorphic by nature and have a hard time putting on even an ounce of fat. I've read similar studies on that issue but on the other hand, if I think back, I've always been lean since my early childhood but haven't always felt the way I do now.

    http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/7030/cimg048wc2.png

    And youre right: It's pointless to debate over what may cause low test, which is apparently a very complex issue.
    I think I should have clarified it from the beginning: At the moment I'm torn between the results of my first and second test (read my first post). If the second blood picture was right (compare it to the first one), it would actually mean that I have VERY HIGH free testosterone levels, despite constant (low) Total T levels! How can that be? Maybe Dr. John could give his opinion.
    BTW, FSH, LH, Prolaction.. everything was tested and as far as I know in the normal range. The only abnormal values are those that I've posted above (testosterone, estradiol, cholesterol,...). So in the case that it REALLY is low test
    that is causing my problems, I would suspect it to be stress induced.
    @Scottyo: I train 3 times a week, it's a 2 Day low volume(1-max. 3 sets p.b.p.)/high intensity Split. A single training session takes about 45 minutes. No signs of overtraining so far. I don't train if I don't feel well for some reason.

    Ok, things generally (from my limited view) seem to be in check regarding training, diet etc...at least nothing stands out. I would still try lowering the intensity and refrain from going to failure on any sets for a month or so. That is just one aspect. As for the bloodwork, I would demand to get all the bloodwork results, not just the abnormal ones. Tell them you want to have a copy for your own records...seems to work with me (discovering that after doctors repeatedly refused to provide me with copies or kept 'forgetting'). Get those results to see if anyone like Dr. John can get a more nuanced look.

    An MRI on the pituitary might be the next step, although I hope you have insurance as its not cheap at all.

  25. With some doctors it can be really hard to get infomation off them when they think you dont need it, I have heard doctors go by a saying wich I cant remember the exact wording but translates to less known by a patient, the better treated.
    Last edited by ItsHectic; 11-21-2006 at 04:05 AM.

  26. Right now by taking isocort you are self diagnosing one self with low cortisol. Symptoms of low cortisol and elevated cortisol are almost identical. Seeking a trained md who is opening minded would be your best bet. Salva cortisol test would be a good start and these can be covered by insurances if they are done through your MD through great smokies, Blue cross blue shield personal choice definietely covers these. You need to examine life stlye and events that were 6 months prior before having these symptoms. I am not saying it is all in your head, but events and over traiining could have triggered it. People who have incredible diets still are lacking in vital nutrients. I commonly hear all the time that people take there multivitamin and still have numerous low minerals and they wonder why. I tell them that most people eat a high fiber breakfast with coffee and vitamins are just flushed out of system never getting properly absorbed. These are all factors that need to be considered and are over looked. Some times the most complex problem has the simpliest solution.

  27. I am not sure about what supplements your taking but If I were you I would stop them. Do you do Soy your Estradiol it higher then mine was when I first had it tested and I was 59 at the time and on TRT for many yrs. I have bead ED, could not reach an orgasm had a bed rash that kept comming back in the same place and my nipples were hard and sore all the time. Your Testosterone levels are low because all your cells are full of Estradiol the brain thinks this is Testosterone and is not telling your Testis to make more Testosterone. You need your LH and FSH tested. I had a poster about 23 yrs. in age with about the same problem after a lot of questions we got to his diet he said he does a healthy diet and drinks a lot of Soy Milk. I told him this is his problem the Soy has a Estrongen maker in it and this can fill the cell in his body and the brain thinks it's Testosterone and stops sending the LH and FSH messages to make more T. He stopped the Soy Milk and the next time I heard from him his levels were back and his libido was great.
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by lowvolume
    My background: I'm an 18 year old male and have been lifting for the past 1.5-2 years. Since about a year I've been noticing decreased libido, virtually no attraction to the other sex and a feeling of indifference (towards people/friends in general. I realise that this impression is subjective and may have different explanations but after roaming the boards and hearing about the symptoms of low T, I decided to have a blood test done (2 months ago). I don't have it right here but the numbers were something like:
    Testosterone: 270 or 280 ng/dl (low end of normal range);
    Free T was also tested. I just remember it being barely above the low end (Edit: 9.3 ng/l; normal range: 8.8-27).
    All else was Ok except for creatine kinase, which is imho explained by breakdown of muscle tissue. That doc said everything's fine, but I didn't agree and argued with my mother (who's a pediatrician) until she sent me to an andrologist at the university hospital. It seemed to me as if the prof didn't listen to me at all, he would just go through his list, pointing out that my protein shake in the morning and creatine use could be to blame due to some contaminations and that no one could ever make him drink that.
    Anyway, today I got a letter with the results:
    To make it brief I quote his comment at the end (loosely translated from German):
    "The symptoms described by you... aren't caused by a lack of the peripheral androgen, as the level of the peripheral androgen is in the very high normal range (!!!).
    Note:
    Contrary to the first blood test, no free testosterone was measured.
    Total T (this time 300 ng/dl) and SHBG (9.20 nml/l, below normal range) were calculated into the "free androgen index".
    And to top it, I quote: "The elevated level of creatine kinase and a marginally low level of HDL-Cholesterol (37 mg/dl) are conspicuous. This indicates a possible exogenic use of androgenic drugs(!!!). This may also explain the marginal level of Estradiol (98.3 pg/ml) as well as the elevated GPT."
    Note: , I've never touched AS!
    "...Therapeutically, it is recommended to cease the supplementation of protein and the intake of creatinine, as well as to reduce physical strain. At the moment there is a cardiovascular risk for a coronary heart disease, advice regarding further action is necessary". I'm speechless. Need advice.
    ps: I wasn't sure where to put this thread, but the anti-aging/testosterone related issues category seems to fit best.
    Thanks for your help.

  28. Pgrmmer can soy lechithin do the same thing with estrogen. I have a choline deficiency and been using soy lechithan at 2 TBSP x 3 times a day. WOuld this also be considered a soy product as well since its only a derviative from soy beans. Could this also be another reason why soy effects thyroid is that it actually lowers testosterone as well thyroid needs adqeute testosterone for thyroid to be optimal.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
    Pgrmmer can soy lechithin do the same thing with estrogen. I have a choline deficiency and been using soy lechithan at 2 TBSP x 3 times a day. WOuld this also be considered a soy product as well since its only a derviative from soy beans. Could this also be another reason why soy effects thyroid is that it actually lowers testosterone as well thyroid needs adqeute testosterone for thyroid to be optimal.
    Is there anything you can take besides this soy lechithan. Basically if it says less than 2% of soy then go ahead and eat it. But if you eat soy cereal, and drink soy milk, and put soy based dressing on your salad, etc, you are messing yourself up!

    I don't do any kind or soy I have enough problems with Estradiol let along put a E into my body that does nothing but take up space and not let other hormones work.
    Phiil

  30. Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18
    I am not sure about what supplements your taking but If I were you I would stop them. Do you do Soy your Estradiol it higher then mine was when I first had it tested and I was 59 at the time and on TRT for many yrs. I have bead ED, could not reach an orgasm had a bed rash that kept comming back in the same place and my nipples were hard and sore all the time. Your Testosterone levels are low because all your cells are full of Estradiol the brain thinks this is Testosterone and is not telling your Testis to make more Testosterone. You need your LH and FSH tested. I had a poster about 23 yrs. in age with about the same problem after a lot of questions we got to his diet he said he does a healthy diet and drinks a lot of Soy Milk. I told him this is his problem the Soy has a Estrongen maker in it and this can fill the cell in his body and the brain thinks it's Testosterone and stops sending the LH and FSH messages to make more T. He stopped the Soy Milk and the next time I heard from him his levels were back and his libido was great.
    Phil
    Just came back from the kitchen... The protein supplement I take for breakfast contains soy protein. Damn, and it doesn't even taste well. I'll definitely eliminate that from diet. Thanks for the hint!
    Besides that I have a whey protein shake after my workout.

    @hardasnails1973
    Right now it looks like I'll get myself a new doctor, show him the blood test results and convince him to look into my stress hormone levels. Btw, I now have the complete analysis in my hands, which also includes DHEA-S (356 g/dl, elevated).
    Just out of curiosity, what are the possible ways to treat adrenal fatigue/chronic cortisol imbalances?
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