Does DHEA supplementation have any impact on the HPTA?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by BigAk
    DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain.

    After all the research ItsHectic has presented, I am really reluctant to using DHEA as a supplement as I'm afraid that it may convert mostly to Estrogen rather than testosterone... even at 25mg per day.
    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    You guys are nuts! I'm telling you this stuff has a major androgenic predominance! I can't take over 200mg/d without getting acne and growing body hair. It is not estrogenic at all. If anything, it's too androgenic. That's it main limiting factor. Try it and see what I mean. A week of dose experimentation will not kill you either way and is extremely unlikely to result in any sequelae. It will totally change your mind because you got the wrong idea about DHEA!
    April-2005 my DHEAs was 118 (280-640 g/dL)
    I am supplementing long time with
    300mg DHEA
    and
    50mg DHEA plus 200mg 7ketoDHEA
    My blood DHEAs went up only to 369
    thinking of additional increase since LEF recomends (400-600)
    I am probably missing on some other nutrients, what that may be?
    I am 66yo, 5'9", 155#
    I am taking (good quality DHEA from LEF), so hopefully quality is of no concern here.
    Dhea Complete, 60 Capsules
    Dhea (Dehydroepiandrosterone) Free Base, 100 Mg 60 Capsules


  2. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz
    April-2005 my DHEAs was 118 (280-640 g/dL)
    I am supplementing long time with
    300mg DHEA
    and
    50mg DHEA plus 200mg 7ketoDHEA
    My blood DHEAs went up only to 369
    thinking of additional increase since LEF recomends (400-600)
    I am probably missing on some other nutrients, what that may be?
    I am 66yo, 5'9", 155#
    I am taking (good quality DHEA from LEF), so hopefully quality is of no concern here.
    Dhea Complete, 60 Capsules
    Dhea (Dehydroepiandrosterone) Free Base, 100 Mg 60 Capsules
    So what's the difference between 7ketoDHEA and the plain DHEA?? And why do we need to take both?
    •   
       


  3. EDIT by Dr. Crisler: THAT question is out of bounds with respect to steroid use. Sorry.
    Last edited by Dr. John; 12-26-2006 at 06:48 PM.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    ... I can also share with you that the top Thought Leaders in my field I have discussed this important topic with are in agreement with me.
    I'm in agreement with you too. I am suggesting that I must be an atypical responder due to differences in enzymes or something, because DHEA is a stronger androgen (qualitatively) than anything else I have ever used, as far as literal manifestations like acne, body hair growth, etc. you would associate with androgen and no estrogen sides at all. I would guess this paradoxical response may be more common than currently recognized unless it is truly just an idiosyncrasy. Look at the individual above that has been using 300mg and is still not even in range!

  5. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    Well, with an AI it only helps with me! That's all I can say.
    EDIT BY DR. CRISLER: NO anabolic steroids TALK, PLEASE.
    •   
       


  6. I realize that DHEA is produced by the adrenal glands as well as by the testes. My questions are:

    1) what prompts the testes to produce DHEA?? Is there a negative feedback mechanism similar to testosterone production??

    2) If the SERMs cause an increase in testosterone production via LH, do they also prompt the testes to produce more DHEA precursor??

    3) If someone is trying to recover his HPTA and increase testosterone production via SERMs, is it futile to do so if the levels of DHEA are below normal?

    4) If Total Estrogen is high in a patient with a below-normal DHEA and low-normal E2, isn't it counterproductive to supplement with DHEA (even at a low dose of 25mg) and risk wrecking HPTA recovery with elevating Total Estrogen to even higher levels?

    5)...... that's it for now...

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    ...
    The question which remains is proper dosing. In my extensive experience, I find that 25mg BID provides a healthy dose of DHEA, without substantial elevation of E. OTOH, I have used higher doses of DHEA successfully when E was too low.
    ...
    Is 7-Keto DHEA the same, or should this just be "plain" DHEA?

    Thanks.
    WF

  8. Quote Originally Posted by BigAk
    So what's the difference between 7ketoDHEA and the plain DHEA?? And why do we need to take both?
    Bump... I asked this a few posts back Wildfox...

  9. I did 7 Keto and it did nothing for me but take my money.
    Phil

  10. I have an appointment with the venerable Dr. John tomorrow about it, so then I'll know for sure. I did some reading (Google knows everything), and it looks like 7-keto DHEA does not convert to T or E. It is a metabolite (converted from) of DHEA. Apparently DHEA gets converted to a whole mess of things in different places in the body, including T and E, but 7-keto DHEA does not get converted to either.

    here are some links
    Le Magazine, May 2005 - Cover Story: 7-Keto Dhea The Fat-Burning Metabolite Of Dhea
    DHEA for Antiaging*-*Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA): Encyclopedia Article

  11. It seems like 7-keto has poorer oral bioavailability than regular DHEA..that and it is far more expensive.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by BigAk
    I realize that DHEA is produced by the adrenal glands as well as by the testes. My questions are:

    1) what prompts the testes to produce DHEA?? Is there a negative feedback mechanism similar to testosterone production??

    2) If the SERMs cause an increase in testosterone production via LH, do they also prompt the testes to produce more DHEA precursor??

    3) If someone is trying to recover his HPTA and increase testosterone production via SERMs, is it futile to do so if the levels of DHEA are below normal?

    4) If Total Estrogen is high in a patient with a below-normal DHEA and low-normal E2, isn't it counterproductive to supplement with DHEA (even at a low dose of 25mg) and risk wrecking HPTA recovery with elevating Total Estrogen to even higher levels?

    5)...... that's it for now...
    Bump for answers....

  13. The statement the DHEA doesn't produce testosterone in the male body isn't really true. It really matter when you measure it. The amount of estrogen that DHEA produces will tend to push back on the HTPA axis. See the attached charts. Since it does indeed produce a testerone spike, there will be also be DHT spike too.

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    As time goes along the extra estrogen in men is going to push on HTPA axis and balance the Testosterone back down. You could use an AI to lower the estrogen back down and reduce the push on HTPA axis.

  14. I had to wait until MSIE loaded the JPGs fully, then find the "expand" button at the bottom right to bring them to proper magnification.

  15. Are there any studies that show a correlation between the percentage body fat one has and the degree to which DHEA will end up being E2?

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf
    The statement the DHEA doesn't produce testosterone in the male body isn't really true. It really matter when you measure it. The amount of estrogen that DHEA produces will tend to push back on the HTPA axis. See the attached charts. Since it does indeed produce a testerone spike, there will be also be DHT spike too.

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    Name:  DHEA-Estrogen.jpg
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    Name:  DHEA.jpg
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    As time goes along the extra estrogen in men is going to push on HTPA axis and balance the Testosterone back down. You could use an AI to lower the estrogen back down and reduce the push on HTPA axis.
    Source please? I'd like to see what other plots they have.

    Thanks,
    WF

  17. Quote Originally Posted by wildfox
    I had to wait until MSIE loaded the JPGs fully, then find the "expand" button at the bottom right to bring them to proper magnification.
    Depending on how you have MSIE (Microsoft Internet Explorer) set, you may have to place your cursor over the lower right part of the image until a little graphic pops up. The little graphic has arrows pointing outward in each corner. If you click that graphic, the image will expand and becomes clearer.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    In my experience, 25mg BID is an effective and safe dose for most adult males.
    Dr. John
    Do you have recommended blood levels of DHEA?
    How to go about to achieve them?
    What are the (most common) penalties of not having proper levels?
    LEF recommended DHEA levels are:
    --------- Normal --------Ideal
    Men---- 280-640 ug/dL 500-640 ug/dL
    Women --65-380 ug/dL 250-380 ug/dL
    LEF dedicated separate protocol that discusses DHEA and 7ketoDHEA
    DHEA Restoration Therapy
    Dhea Restoration Therapy: Online References For Health Concerns
    ----------------------------------------
    I am using about 15x of your recommended 25mg supplementation and am still below their recommended range.
    Possible (common) reasons why this is happening?
    ------------------
    Thank you for your time and expertise.
    Happy New Year!!!

  19. JanSz: I'm not the doc, but if you're taking 375mg a day, you might be suppressing something. The body always wants to go back to homeostasis.

    There's a saying "a little dab'll do ya". Perhaps you didn't need so much in the first place? Who recommended you take that much in one day?

  20. Quote Originally Posted by wildfox
    JanSz: I'm not the doc, but if you're taking 375mg a day, you might be suppressing something. The body always wants to go back to homeostasis.

    There's a saying "a little dab'll do ya". Perhaps you didn't need so much in the first place? Who recommended you take that much in one day?
    LEF advisor is reviewing and recommending my supplements.
    1-800-226-2370 (Membership required, I think)
    In their DHEA restoration protocol they state:
    quote:
    "As part of a comprehensive approach to fighting the diseases of aging, Life Extension recommends that people monitor their blood levels of DHEA and strive to reproduce hormone levels of a healthy 21-year-old. Fortunately, DHEA is well tolerated as a supplement, with only minimal side effects even at relatively high doses."
    ---------------------------
    With all this I am obviously open to all opinions.
    At this moment I suspect that when people are reporting adverse results of taking rather minimal amounts of DHEA,
    I am not doubting what they report, but there may be another than DHEA reason for their problems, or case of some unidentified interactions.
    I have similar suspicion on Finasteride, when people stop using it and still have a problems after more than 2 months. It did not happen, at least in my case in regard to DHT. I do not have a personal experience of Finasteride causing low T way after it is not used any more.
    ++++++++++++++
    The terminal elimination half-life of dutasteride is approximately 5 weeks at steady state. The average steady-state serum dutasteride concentration was 40 ng/mL following 0.5 mg/day for 1 year. Following daily dosing, dutasteride serum concentrations achieve 65% of steady-state concentration after 1 month and approximately 90% after 3 months. Due to the long half-life of dutasteride, serum concentrations remain detectable (greater than 0.1 ng/mL) for up to 4 to 6 months after discontinuation of treatment.
    http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_avodart.pdf

    ----------------------------
    I must say that over year ago LEF advisor recomended Armour Thyroid for me. I was not able to get script for it, that may change soon.

  21. One recent study showed that doses under 30 mg were not enough to significantly raise blood levels of DHEA in young adults (Cameron DR et al 2005). At these levels, DHEA has shown no major side effects.
    -------------
    All individuals react differently to DHEA replacement therapy, so it's a good idea to closely monitor your blood levels and side effects. If side effects appear, it may be possible to add 7-Keto DHEA and reduce the dose of DHEA.

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  22. I am not knocking you for using LEF products but you do know they are about getting to you Buy Buy Buy and Buy again. I feel they have some good info but don't waste my money on there products. I have been down this road and flag for this is when your doing something they sell that does not work and they tell you it's because you need this. Like I said they are about selling there products and at a lot of money. You can find much better deals out there.
    If I was to listen to them and buy all that they told me I would be on everything they sell.
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz
    LEF advisor is reviewing and recommending my supplements.
    1-800-226-2370 (Membership required, I think)
    In their DHEA restoration protocol they state:
    quote:
    "As part of a comprehensive approach to fighting the diseases of aging, Life Extension recommends that people monitor their blood levels of DHEA and strive to reproduce hormone levels of a healthy 21-year-old. Fortunately, DHEA is well tolerated as a supplement, with only minimal side effects even at relatively high doses."
    ---------------------------
    With all this I am obviously open to all opinions.
    At this moment I suspect that when people are reporting adverse results of taking rather minimal amounts of DHEA,
    I am not doubting what they report, but there may be another than DHEA reason for their problems, or case of some unidentified interactions.
    I have similar suspicion on Finasteride, when people stop using it and still have a problems after more than 2 months. It did not happen, at least in my case in regard to DHT. I do not have a personal experience of Finasteride causing low T way after it is not used any more.
    ----------------------------
    I must say that over year ago LEF advisor recomended Armour Thyroid for me. I was not able to get script for it, that may change soon.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Let me say it ONE MORE TIME. DHEA must convert to androstenedione before it can convert to testosterone. Just look at the pathways. Does anyone want to make the claim you can elevate T with androstenedione (for the Big Mac fans out there. lol)? Androstenedione is aromatized to estrone, as T is to estradiol. In fact, androstenedione is a more preferable substrate for aromatase than testosterone is. Hence the shunting to E. This is why you will boost estrogen, not testosterone, by taking very much DHEA.
    I was under the impression that androstenedione converted to test at a very low rate (5.6%)? But isn't that much better than zero?

  24. Sure androstenedione can be used to raise testosterone greatly, it is simply a matter of estrogen control with an anti-E. Same could be said for DHEA.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf
    Sure androstenedione can be used to raise testosterone greatly, it is simply a matter of estrogen control with an anti-E. Same could be said for DHEA.
    So would using large doses of DHEA & an anti-e hurt the HPTA?

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Your post does shed light into the actual actions of the pathways.
    It does?

  27. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    Well, oral delivery of testosterone results in unusually high levels of 17-keto metabolites (androstenedione). Unfavorable metabolism starts in the gut, not to mention the first pass in the liver like you mentioned earlier and the aromatase induction that a hormonal spike will promote. 17-ketos are exceptional substrates for this enzyme. You may as well take a little estrone! DHEA seems well suited for oral use because it is already oxidized at the C-17 plus it is apparently very well absorbed and I have never been able to find a good TD delivery system, so I had abandoned that concept until you got me thinking of it again, but test is certainly better delivered TD over oral.
    I had some impressive results (gyno ) with DHEA in a dermabolics carrier.

    Would the oral bioavailability of DHEA be increased by such simple things as grapefruit extract and suchlikes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Please refer to the previously posted abstract which demonstrates DHEA readily converts to estrogen. Other studies have shown similar results, so this simply is not in question. The pathways are very clear, in all endocrinology books. I think I have already discussed this pathway in this very thread.

    Try taking 200mg QD of DHEA, in absence of any AI or SERM administration. You will indeed find grossly elevated estrogen as a result.

    The question which remains is proper dosing. In my extensive experience, I find that 25mg BID provides a healthy dose of DHEA, without substantial elevation of E. OTOH, I have used higher doses of DHEA successfully when E was too low.

    In fact, DHEA can be used to elevate E in adult males, but it conversely elevates T in females. Go figure.

    I can also share with you that the top Thought Leaders in my field I have discussed this important topic with are in agreement with me.
    What is the enzyme responsible for conversion of DHEA to Testosterone? Would this enzyme have any oral bioavailability?

    Also, provided an AI is already taken, will the oral DHEA be more likely to get turned into testosterone, or would that occur better with the transdermal?

    Oh, and 600mg DHEA ED with some Arimidex makes me feel SOOOO GOOOD

    Thanks

  28. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz
    LEF advisor is reviewing and recommending my supplements....
    Is that advisor a physician?

  29. Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18
    I am not knocking you for using LEF products but you do know they are about getting to you Buy Buy Buy and Buy again. I feel they have some good info but don't waste my money on there products. I have been down this road and flag for this is when your doing something they sell that does not work and they tell you it's because you need this. Like I said they are about selling there products and at a lot of money. You can find much better deals out there.
    If I was to listen to them and buy all that they told me I would be on everything they sell.
    Phil
    You are entitled to your opinion.
    Ok; speaking about bi--ing about LEF.
    If I had to bich, that would be more involved advisors assigned to particular "case"/member.
    Mine got tired rather quickly.
    However, advice that I got from my advisor, I was not able to get anywhere else.
    -------------------------------
    One of their gods is Dr. Shippen,
    but that is only one or three protocols from the list of probably 30 (I did not actually counted them) that they provide.
    --------------------------------
    Whatever;
    anti-aging is new field, and it is in my interest to keep open mind. Somebody, somewhere is working on better mouse trap.
    .

  30. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Then they used a very poor quality product.

    I can tell you that a single 25mg dose of a good DHEA will elevate a 24 hour urine about 6X normal range.
    Dr. John;
    Please provide known good quality DHEA source that is openly available for purchase. I will buy it and eat 350mg of it daily, one month before my next blood test and report results.
    .
    Happy New Year;
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