Does DHEA supplementation have any impact on the HPTA?
- 12-25-2006, 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by BigAkOriginally Posted by DR.D
I am supplementing long time with
50mg DHEA plus 200mg 7ketoDHEA
My blood DHEAs went up only to 369
thinking of additional increase since LEF recomends (400-600)
I am probably missing on some other nutrients, what that may be?
I am 66yo, 5'9", 155#
I am taking (good quality DHEA from LEF), so hopefully quality is of no concern here.
Dhea Complete, 60 Capsules
Dhea (Dehydroepiandrosterone) Free Base, 100 Mg 60 Capsules
- 12-26-2006, 12:37 AM
Originally Posted by JanSz
12-26-2006, 02:39 AM
EDIT by Dr. Crisler: THAT question is out of bounds with respect to steroid use. Sorry.
Last edited by Dr. John; 12-26-2006 at 06:48 PM.
12-26-2006, 06:58 PM
I'm in agreement with you too. I am suggesting that I must be an atypical responder due to differences in enzymes or something, because DHEA is a stronger androgen (qualitatively) than anything else I have ever used, as far as literal manifestations like acne, body hair growth, etc. you would associate with androgen and no estrogen sides at all. I would guess this paradoxical response may be more common than currently recognized unless it is truly just an idiosyncrasy. Look at the individual above that has been using 300mg and is still not even in range!Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-26-2006, 07:12 PM
12-26-2006, 10:23 PM
I realize that DHEA is produced by the adrenal glands as well as by the testes. My questions are:
1) what prompts the testes to produce DHEA?? Is there a negative feedback mechanism similar to testosterone production??
2) If the SERMs cause an increase in testosterone production via LH, do they also prompt the testes to produce more DHEA precursor??
3) If someone is trying to recover his HPTA and increase testosterone production via SERMs, is it futile to do so if the levels of DHEA are below normal?
4) If Total Estrogen is high in a patient with a below-normal DHEA and low-normal E2, isn't it counterproductive to supplement with DHEA (even at a low dose of 25mg) and risk wrecking HPTA recovery with elevating Total Estrogen to even higher levels?
5)...... that's it for now...
12-26-2006, 11:58 PM
Is 7-Keto DHEA the same, or should this just be "plain" DHEA?Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-27-2006, 12:08 AM
12-27-2006, 03:20 PM
12-27-2006, 04:00 PM
I have an appointment with the venerable Dr. John tomorrow about it, so then I'll know for sure. I did some reading (Google knows everything), and it looks like 7-keto DHEA does not convert to T or E. It is a metabolite (converted from) of DHEA. Apparently DHEA gets converted to a whole mess of things in different places in the body, including T and E, but 7-keto DHEA does not get converted to either.
here are some links
Le Magazine, May 2005 - Cover Story: 7-Keto Dhea The Fat-Burning Metabolite Of Dhea
DHEA for Antiaging*-*Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA): Encyclopedia Article
12-27-2006, 05:37 PM
It seems like 7-keto has poorer oral bioavailability than regular DHEA..that and it is far more expensive.
12-27-2006, 06:56 PM
12-28-2006, 12:54 AM
The statement the DHEA doesn't produce testosterone in the male body isn't really true. It really matter when you measure it. The amount of estrogen that DHEA produces will tend to push back on the HTPA axis. See the attached charts. Since it does indeed produce a testerone spike, there will be also be DHT spike too.
As time goes along the extra estrogen in men is going to push on HTPA axis and balance the Testosterone back down. You could use an AI to lower the estrogen back down and reduce the push on HTPA axis.
12-28-2006, 08:57 AM
I had to wait until MSIE loaded the JPGs fully, then find the "expand" button at the bottom right to bring them to proper magnification.
12-28-2006, 08:57 AM
Are there any studies that show a correlation between the percentage body fat one has and the degree to which DHEA will end up being E2?
12-28-2006, 08:58 AM
12-28-2006, 10:02 AM
Depending on how you have MSIE (Microsoft Internet Explorer) set, you may have to place your cursor over the lower right part of the image until a little graphic pops up. The little graphic has arrows pointing outward in each corner. If you click that graphic, the image will expand and becomes clearer.Originally Posted by wildfox
12-28-2006, 11:29 AM
Dr. JohnOriginally Posted by Dr. John
Do you have recommended blood levels of DHEA?
How to go about to achieve them?
What are the (most common) penalties of not having proper levels?
LEF recommended DHEA levels are:
--------- Normal --------Ideal
Men---- 280-640 ug/dL 500-640 ug/dL
Women --65-380 ug/dL 250-380 ug/dL
LEF dedicated separate protocol that discusses DHEA and 7ketoDHEA
DHEA Restoration Therapy
Dhea Restoration Therapy: Online References For Health Concerns
I am using about 15x of your recommended 25mg supplementation and am still below their recommended range.
Possible (common) reasons why this is happening?
Thank you for your time and expertise.
Happy New Year!!!
12-28-2006, 11:40 AM
JanSz: I'm not the doc, but if you're taking 375mg a day, you might be suppressing something. The body always wants to go back to homeostasis.
There's a saying "a little dab'll do ya". Perhaps you didn't need so much in the first place? Who recommended you take that much in one day?
12-28-2006, 12:37 PM
LEF advisor is reviewing and recommending my supplements.Originally Posted by wildfox
1-800-226-2370 (Membership required, I think)
In their DHEA restoration protocol they state:
"As part of a comprehensive approach to fighting the diseases of aging, Life Extension recommends that people monitor their blood levels of DHEA and strive to reproduce hormone levels of a healthy 21-year-old. Fortunately, DHEA is well tolerated as a supplement, with only minimal side effects even at relatively high doses."
With all this I am obviously open to all opinions.
At this moment I suspect that when people are reporting adverse results of taking rather minimal amounts of DHEA,
I am not doubting what they report, but there may be another than DHEA reason for their problems, or case of some unidentified interactions.
I have similar suspicion on Finasteride, when people stop using it and still have a problems after more than 2 months. It did not happen, at least in my case in regard to DHT. I do not have a personal experience of Finasteride causing low T way after it is not used any more.
The terminal elimination half-life of dutasteride is approximately 5 weeks at steady state. The average steady-state serum dutasteride concentration was 40 ng/mL following 0.5 mg/day for 1 year. Following daily dosing, dutasteride serum concentrations achieve 65% of steady-state concentration after 1 month and approximately 90% after 3 months. Due to the long half-life of dutasteride, serum concentrations remain detectable (greater than 0.1 ng/mL) for up to 4 to 6 months after discontinuation of treatment.
I must say that over year ago LEF advisor recomended Armour Thyroid for me. I was not able to get script for it, that may change soon.
12-28-2006, 01:27 PM
One recent study showed that doses under 30 mg were not enough to significantly raise blood levels of DHEA in young adults (Cameron DR et al 2005). At these levels, DHEA has shown no major side effects.
All individuals react differently to DHEA replacement therapy, so it's a good idea to closely monitor your blood levels and side effects. If side effects appear, it may be possible to add 7-Keto DHEA and reduce the dose of DHEA.
12-28-2006, 01:56 PM
I am not knocking you for using LEF products but you do know they are about getting to you Buy Buy Buy and Buy again. I feel they have some good info but don't waste my money on there products. I have been down this road and flag for this is when your doing something they sell that does not work and they tell you it's because you need this. Like I said they are about selling there products and at a lot of money. You can find much better deals out there.
If I was to listen to them and buy all that they told me I would be on everything they sell.
Originally Posted by JanSz
12-28-2006, 02:07 PM
I was under the impression that androstenedione converted to test at a very low rate (5.6%)? But isn't that much better than zero?Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-28-2006, 02:11 PM
Sure androstenedione can be used to raise testosterone greatly, it is simply a matter of estrogen control with an anti-E. Same could be said for DHEA.
12-28-2006, 03:17 PM
12-28-2006, 03:19 PM
12-28-2006, 03:37 PM
I had some impressive results (gyno ) with DHEA in a dermabolics carrier.Originally Posted by DR.D
Would the oral bioavailability of DHEA be increased by such simple things as grapefruit extract and suchlikes?
What is the enzyme responsible for conversion of DHEA to Testosterone? Would this enzyme have any oral bioavailability?Originally Posted by Dr. John
Also, provided an AI is already taken, will the oral DHEA be more likely to get turned into testosterone, or would that occur better with the transdermal?
Oh, and 600mg DHEA ED with some Arimidex makes me feel SOOOO GOOOD
12-28-2006, 04:15 PM
12-28-2006, 04:43 PM
You are entitled to your opinion.Originally Posted by pmgamer18
Ok; speaking about bi--ing about LEF.
If I had to bich, that would be more involved advisors assigned to particular "case"/member.
Mine got tired rather quickly.
However, advice that I got from my advisor, I was not able to get anywhere else.
One of their gods is Dr. Shippen,
but that is only one or three protocols from the list of probably 30 (I did not actually counted them) that they provide.
anti-aging is new field, and it is in my interest to keep open mind. Somebody, somewhere is working on better mouse trap.
12-28-2006, 04:47 PM
Dr. John;Originally Posted by Dr. John
Please provide known good quality DHEA source that is openly available for purchase. I will buy it and eat 350mg of it daily, one month before my next blood test and report results.
Happy New Year;
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