Does DHEA supplementation have any impact on the HPTA?

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  1. I recently saw a DHEA hepatotoxicity study and the range was calculated out to be between 2000 and 10,000 mg per day for humans (based on a rat model).

    I think I would die of oily skin and acne well before my liver failed. We have actually seen anecdotal info from guys using 2 grams of DHEA per day for muscle building purposes. They reported excellent muscle hardness and very mild gains in lbm. What their livers were doing is a good question though.

    In using low doses of DHEA for my wife..it's been amazing to help her recover from the effects of prednisone(she has UC). I have seen some Drs now recommend DHEA to be taken concurrently with any corticosteriod to provide adrenal support. It also appears that DHEA has a stronger anti-inflammatory property than previously known. Most women though, I have noted, are taking way too high of a dose.


  2. My wife has Hashimoto thyroiditis was on Synthroid for 15yrs. never felt good. I got her to stop seeing Endo's and now she sees a Dr. that uses Armour he tested her and found her to have Adrenal Fatigue from being on Synthroid for so long. Her DHEA was below noraml so he started her on 25mgs of DHEA 6 weeks later she was doing better but her DHEA levels were still to low so now she take 25mgs 2x's a day and she if feeling like a new women. Her tests are on the money and now he is treating her Adrenal Fatigue also the first thing he put her on was a script for Fish Oil 3 grams a day. She was able now to start upping her Armour with out feeling Hyper.
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by bioman
    I recently saw a DHEA hepatotoxicity study and the range was calculated out to be between 2000 and 10,000 mg per day for humans (based on a rat model).

    I think I would die of oily skin and acne well before my liver failed. We have actually seen anecdotal info from guys using 2 grams of DHEA per day for muscle building purposes. They reported excellent muscle hardness and very mild gains in lbm. What their livers were doing is a good question though.

    In using low doses of DHEA for my wife..it's been amazing to help her recover from the effects of prednisone(she has UC). I have seen some Drs now recommend DHEA to be taken concurrently with any corticosteriod to provide adrenal support. It also appears that DHEA has a stronger anti-inflammatory property than previously known. Most women though, I have noted, are taking way too high of a dose.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Just 25mg of DHEA will take a 24 hour urine from reference range of (5-1476) to over 10,000. We also see a flood of metabolites-which is why we must hold DHEA for at lest 24 hours prior to testing.

    I have successfully elevated estrogens in several patients at 50mg DHEA BID.
    That is interesting. I knew it was highly bioavailable orally but exceeding the reference 10x is impressive! That suggests to me that use of more than 50mg w/out an AI (or SERM at least) could be potentially suppressive?

  4. I take 10mg of DHEA per day. When I have tried 25mg it results in acne.

    I wonder if I could dodge the bullet with a higher dose SR version, maybe 25mg?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Here's another "pearl":

    Those of you on thyroid should be mindful that you may demonstrate hyperthyroid symptoms once you start, or increase dose of, DHEA. That is because DHEA increases activity of D1, which converts T4 to T3.

    I learned this from my friend Dr. Neal Rouzier, the "Kind of Thyroid". Dr. Rouzier will be speaking in my Pre-Conference track at the A4M National Convention next week, as will Dr. Mark Gordon.
    That is intersting could this be the reasoning that why 7 keto works so well that maybe the increasing the dhea is increasing the ratio of dhea/7keto? or should it claims to increase t-3 conversions. I need to research and find if there are studies back it up that be interesting to see.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    If you have some estrogen issues and you take progesterone, you are going to then have lots of estrogen issues.

    Progesterone has feminizing efects in males.

    I have seen many self-appointed "experts" claim you cannot get gyno from, for instance, Deca. Deca is a progestin, IOW a synthetic progesterone. And I have had guys come to me with gyno from Deca-only use.
    THAT BE ME LOL my progesterone was out of range pregelone was at 5 but drs response "oh you are just a little bit out do not worry its nothing to be concerned about"

    I just checked back on all my labs from previous years and estrodial was never above 22 even at 1100 ng/dl of test, but I had only the one reading where progesterone was elevated, but was ignored..

    Now in this case HCG would not be appropiate since it does increase progesterone and was possible altering effects of testosterone. Could this be plausible?
    Then another dr suggested to take 500 mgs on pregnelone. i politely mentioined "dr isn't the thyroid responsible for converting cholesterol into pregenlone?" He just sat there with a frazzle look on his face.
    This has been the kind of medical advice i have been getting for past 2 years suprise i do not have one foot in the grave already.

    The kicker of it all was first thyroid test reading 3 years ago was serum t-3 was 10 points from lowest range and ft-4 was at 90% higher, testosterone was 40!! and he offered me paxil and seek psychotherapy.

    I like to thank dr john for devoting his time because with there are few DRs that take the time to research and explain things so people can understand. With his information i am learning to avoid certain pit falls before they happen. I may take one step forward but i was taking 3 steps back. Since being on this site and under a compassionate dr who is open minded and enjoys learning new methods. My dr told me if I come up with any new information and there is validation scientifically to back it up then he would be willing to consider it. Now I take 2 steps forward and only one step back. As always for people that help me i always willing to give back as much as i can

  7. How long would it take after coming off small dose of 25mg DHEA for natural levels to come up for testing? I've been taking 25mg DHEA and Pregnenolone 20mg for a month for weaning purposes of HC. Need to do full profile testing.
    -Rob

  8. Raw coming off HC you need to support adrenals with lifestlye modifications would be the biggest aid in recovery (constant sleep patterns, relaxation techniques, ect) Protocol that might help would be

    1500-2000 mgs b5 take first thing in the morning

    100-200 mgs theanine every 4-6 hours
    1000 mgs vitamin ester C 3 times a day
    800 ius vitamin E (responsible for 6 enzymatic reactions down the hormonal cascade)
    rhodiola roscea- helps modulate cortisol level (High or low levels) 150 - 300 mgs once a day
    magnesium 750 mgs - 400 before bed time with 30 mgs zinc
    calcium 1000 mgs
    zinc 50 mgs total daily with 3 mgs copper to balance it out

    hope this helps

  9. Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
    Raw coming off HC you need to support adrenals with lifestlye modifications would be the biggest aid in recovery (constant sleep patterns, relaxation techniques, ect) Protocol that might help would be

    1500-2000 mgs b5 take first thing in the morning

    100-200 mgs theanine every 4-6 hours
    1000 mgs vitamin ester C 3 times a day
    800 ius vitamin E (responsible for 6 enzymatic reactions down the hormonal cascade)
    rhodiola roscea- helps modulate cortisol level (High or low levels) 150 - 300 mgs once a day
    magnesium 750 mgs - 400 before bed time with 30 mgs zinc
    calcium 1000 mgs
    zinc 50 mgs total daily with 3 mgs copper to balance it out

    hope this helps
    Thanks- I do take most of the items in your list except the theanine( never heard of it, but will look into it) and I take the cal/mag/zinc in one tab usually in morning and spread b5 1500 throughout the day. Why do you take these at these times? I'm especially curious about the full 2000 mg b5 in morning? Thanks in advance- Also, thanks to Doctor John

  10. I hate to interrupt this thread with such a basic question, but I'll go ahead and do it anyway. Is taking DHEA transdermally more effective then orally mg for mg? Thanks.

  11. From my experience yes, it gives a sustained boost and feels different overall than taking it orally. Intuitively, you would recieve a small but steady stream rather than a pulse as seems to be the case with a lot of transdermal hormones.

    Hard to quantify the dose you are recieving though.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by bioman
    From my experience yes, it gives a sustained boost and feels different overall than taking it orally. Intuitively, you would recieve a small but steady stream rather than a pulse as seems to be the case with a lot of transdermal hormones.

    Hard to quantify the dose you are recieving though.
    I have been low on DHEA for yrs. when I was on T cream the script said 50mgs DHEA/150 testo my levels were no better then the 25mg. pills I take 2x's a day.
    Phil

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Alexander
    ...Is taking DHEA transdermally more effective then orally mg for mg? Thanks.
    The kinetics are obviously superior with a TD due to sustained release, so sides are reduced while benefits are optimized, but what's it soluble in?! I can't even get 1% concentrations with ethanolic formulas.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    The kinetics are obviously superior with a TD due to sustained release, so sides are reduced while benefits are optimized, but what's it soluble in?! I can't even get 1% concentrations with ethanolic formulas.
    Eh? I'm pretty sure I've seen logs on here before that used Penetrate.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    The kinetics are obviously superior with a TD due to sustained release, so sides are reduced while benefits are optimized, but what's it soluble in?! I can't even get 1% concentrations with ethanolic formulas.
    Really? Strange! Few times ago I put 2.5gr of DHEA in 1oz of a "penetrate like" carrier (isopropanol, isopropyl myristate/palmitate, propylene glycol, limonene,....) with no hassle. It got in without even heating.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    On the other hand, TD's are drectly exposed to aromatase in the skin.

    Lord, I hate it when my mind waffles! LOL.
    I suspect you were still right the first time DJ. You see less undesirable metabolism with TD testosterone and I would think it should be applicable to DHEA as well. I thought this in part was due to steady state concentrations not upregulating inducible enzymes like peaking plasma levels can with oral use, in addition to the affect of extra first pass metabolism. I have seen lots of data on absorption, metabolism and fate of acetate and propionate esters of TD corticoids but am not too familiar with the aromatization potential of unmodified DHEA by TD route. I'll have to look into it because you have me wondering now too!

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Please share your thoughts on this statement.
    Well, oral delivery of testosterone results in unusually high levels of 17-keto metabolites (androstenedione). Unfavorable metabolism starts in the gut, not to mention the first pass in the liver like you mentioned earlier and the aromatase induction that a hormonal spike will promote. 17-ketos are exceptional substrates for this enzyme. You may as well take a little estrone! DHEA seems well suited for oral use because it is already oxidized at the C-17 plus it is apparently very well absorbed and I have never been able to find a good TD delivery system, so I had abandoned that concept until you got me thinking of it again, but test is certainly better delivered TD over oral.

  18. Is taking DHEA with a SERM like nolva as good as taking it with an AI as far as reducing estrogenic sides? With a SERM will their be the estrogen still floating around doing what it does? What about post cycle therapy with DHEA and nolva? I am still confused as to whether DHEA would be supressive or if it would help with getting things back to baseline.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Ddono25
    Is taking DHEA with a SERM like nolva as good as taking it with an AI as far as reducing estrogenic sides? With a SERM will their be the estrogen still floating around doing what it does? What about post cycle therapy with DHEA and nolva? I am still confused as to whether DHEA would be supressive or if it would help with getting things back to baseline.
    I use DHEA in PCT for libido support and cortisol antagonism. Basically 200,100,50 or close to it for the first 3-4 wks only. It doesn't seem to suppress or deny recovery time and really smooths out the initial phase of PCT. I know a lot of guys who get great results like this, though some still argue against it. You should give it a personal trial to know for sure.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    ... Are you using an AI concurrently (which I oppose otherwise--not how I do things, as everyone knows) to inhibit estrogenic conversion from the high dose DHEA, as such estrogen production inhibits HPTA-recovery?
    Oh yes, always with an AI concurrently! I'm not as concerned that it contributes significantly to estrogen biosynthesis as I am about it's ability to amplify the effects of pre-existing estrogen though a metabolite called 5-AD, so attenuating estrogen is the safest plan and appropriate at the time we are discussing anyway.

  21. I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking and phrased my question wrong in that context. I did do a little more searching and found what I was looking for. I was meaning to ask about estrogen's positive effects on blood lipids, immune system, etc. Thank you for the reply so quickly.

  22. So.... Just to re-confirm my conclusion; a dose of 25mg per day will in no way convert into estrogen, correct?

    Also, another question. I understand that dhea is a precursor for testosterone production. Do the testes produce DHEA also in addition to the adrenal glands? If so, does dhea play any role in the feedback mechanism?... How??

    Can DHEA levels come back slowly on their own after "successful" PCT without supplementation?

  23. Quote Originally Posted by BigAk
    So.... Just to re-confirm my conclusion; a dose of 25mg per day will in no way convert into estrogen, correct?

    Also, another question. I understand that dhea is a precursor for testosterone production. Do the testes produce DHEA also in addition to the adrenal glands? If so, does dhea play any role in the feedback mechanism?... How??

    Can DHEA levels come back slowly on their own after "successful" post cycle therapy without supplementation?
    I had no problems with taking 25mgs. of DHEA 2x's a day E2 was the same test to test. I did add HC to help my Adrenals and my next test came back over the top of the range had to cut back to one time a day.
    Phil

  24. Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18
    I had no problems with taking 25mgs. of DHEA 2x's a day E2 was the same test to test. I did add HC to help my Adrenals and my next test came back over the top of the range had to cut back to one time a day.
    Phil
    What is HC Phil??

  25. Quote Originally Posted by BigAk
    What is HC Phil??
    Sorry it's hydrocortisone.
    Phil

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    I wonder if some of the actions of DHEA are through estrogen receptors? Perhaps someone with time to do searches (hint, hint) can check that out.
    LEF
    DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain.
    PDR Health
    It has been proposed that DHEA be used (much as estrogen replacement therapy is used) in post-menopausal women to compensate for endogenous age-related and menopause-accelerated declines in DHEA. A dose of 50 milligrams daily has been suggested for this purpose, but there are no clinical trials demonstrating that this regimen would either be effective or safe long-term. It has been noted that DHEA can bring estrogen levels in postmenopausal women to levels equal to that observed in standard hormone-replacement therapy. This may prove risky inasmuch as it has been shown that taking estrogen without concomitant use of progesterone is an established risk factor for uterine cancer.



    some extra info

    PubMed
    DHEA MECHANISM OF ACTION: Potential mechanisms of action for DHEA
    are extensive. The range of projected actions is so wide (brain,
    cardiovascular and immune system effects, anti-cancer or carcinogenic
    (depending on dose), anti-obesity, bone protective, etc.), it raises
    the question of whether a single compound is responsible for all of
    the actions. Ongoing studies suggest several mechanisms of action:
    a) as a non-competitive inhibitor of glucose 6-phosphate
    dehydrogenase (G6PD), the rate-limiting enzyme in the pentose
    phosphate pathway which provides ribose 5-phosphate and NADPH, b) as
    a "neurosteroid" through interactions with neuronal GABA and sigma
    receptors, c) through regulation of enzyme activity or bioregulatory
    factors and their receptors (e.g., enoyl CoA hydratase,
    carbomylphosphate synthetase, malic enzyme, glycerol-3- phosphate
    dehydrogenase, T cell IgD receptor, cytokines), or d) through
    regulation of gene expression (e.g., various cytochrome P450s,
    NADPH-cytochrome P450 reductase, fatty acyl CoA oxidase). There are a
    small number of reports in the literature of 'receptors' for DHEA,
    but as yet no study has unequivocally identified these DHEA 'binding
    proteins' as nuclear transcription factors.
    cut and paste into google for the exact source.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18
    I had no problems with taking 25mgs. of DHEA 2x's a day E2 was the same test to test. I did add HC to help my Adrenals and my next test came back over the top of the range had to cut back to one time a day.
    Phil
    Dhea or E2 was elevated?

  28. Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
    Dhea or E2 was elevated?
    Adding HC my DHEA, Total and Free T levels went way up. Total T went from 900 1250.
    Phil

  29. DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain.

    After all the research ItsHectic has presented, I am really reluctant to using DHEA as a supplement as I'm afraid that it may convert mostly to Estrogen rather than testosterone... even at 25mg per day.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by BigAk
    DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain.

    After all the research ItsHectic has presented, I am really reluctant to using DHEA as a supplement as I'm afraid that it may convert mostly to Estrogen rather than testosterone... even at 25mg per day.
    You guys are nuts! I'm telling you this stuff has a major androgenic predominance! I can't take over 200mg/d without getting acne and growing body hair. It is not estrogenic at all. If anything, it's too androgenic. That's it main limiting factor. Try it and see what I mean. A week of dose experimentation will not kill you either way and is extremely unlikely to result in any sequelae. It will totally change your mind because you got the wrong idea about DHEA!
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