Does DHEA supplementation have any impact on the HPTA?
- 12-12-2006, 01:45 AM
- 12-12-2006, 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by bioman
- 12-13-2006, 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by Alexander
12-13-2006, 01:41 AM
12-14-2006, 05:13 AM
Really? Strange! Few times ago I put 2.5gr of DHEA in 1oz of a "penetrate like" carrier (isopropanol, isopropyl myristate/palmitate, propylene glycol, limonene,....) with no hassle. It got in without even heating.Originally Posted by DR.D
12-14-2006, 11:34 AM
I suspect you were still right the first time DJ. You see less undesirable metabolism with TD testosterone and I would think it should be applicable to DHEA as well. I thought this in part was due to steady state concentrations not upregulating inducible enzymes like peaking plasma levels can with oral use, in addition to the affect of extra first pass metabolism. I have seen lots of data on absorption, metabolism and fate of acetate and propionate esters of TD corticoids but am not too familiar with the aromatization potential of unmodified DHEA by TD route. I'll have to look into it because you have me wondering now too!Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-14-2006, 12:00 PM
Well, oral delivery of testosterone results in unusually high levels of 17-keto metabolites (androstenedione). Unfavorable metabolism starts in the gut, not to mention the first pass in the liver like you mentioned earlier and the aromatase induction that a hormonal spike will promote. 17-ketos are exceptional substrates for this enzyme. You may as well take a little estrone! DHEA seems well suited for oral use because it is already oxidized at the C-17 plus it is apparently very well absorbed and I have never been able to find a good TD delivery system, so I had abandoned that concept until you got me thinking of it again, but test is certainly better delivered TD over oral.Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-19-2006, 12:31 PM
Is taking DHEA with a SERM like nolva as good as taking it with an AI as far as reducing estrogenic sides? With a SERM will their be the estrogen still floating around doing what it does? What about post cycle therapy with DHEA and nolva? I am still confused as to whether DHEA would be supressive or if it would help with getting things back to baseline.
12-19-2006, 11:30 PM
I use DHEA in PCT for libido support and cortisol antagonism. Basically 200,100,50 or close to it for the first 3-4 wks only. It doesn't seem to suppress or deny recovery time and really smooths out the initial phase of PCT. I know a lot of guys who get great results like this, though some still argue against it. You should give it a personal trial to know for sure.Originally Posted by Ddono25
12-20-2006, 04:24 PM
Oh yes, always with an AI concurrently! I'm not as concerned that it contributes significantly to estrogen biosynthesis as I am about it's ability to amplify the effects of pre-existing estrogen though a metabolite called 5-AD, so attenuating estrogen is the safest plan and appropriate at the time we are discussing anyway.Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-22-2006, 01:23 PM
I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking and phrased my question wrong in that context. I did do a little more searching and found what I was looking for. I was meaning to ask about estrogen's positive effects on blood lipids, immune system, etc. Thank you for the reply so quickly.
12-22-2006, 01:38 PM
So.... Just to re-confirm my conclusion; a dose of 25mg per day will in no way convert into estrogen, correct?
Also, another question. I understand that dhea is a precursor for testosterone production. Do the testes produce DHEA also in addition to the adrenal glands? If so, does dhea play any role in the feedback mechanism?... How??
Can DHEA levels come back slowly on their own after "successful" PCT without supplementation?
12-22-2006, 05:03 PM
I had no problems with taking 25mgs. of DHEA 2x's a day E2 was the same test to test. I did add HC to help my Adrenals and my next test came back over the top of the range had to cut back to one time a day.Originally Posted by BigAk
12-22-2006, 05:20 PM
12-22-2006, 07:36 PM
12-23-2006, 12:00 AM
LEFOriginally Posted by Dr. John
PDR HealthDHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain.
It has been proposed that DHEA be used (much as estrogen replacement therapy is used) in post-menopausal women to compensate for endogenous age-related and menopause-accelerated declines in DHEA. A dose of 50 milligrams daily has been suggested for this purpose, but there are no clinical trials demonstrating that this regimen would either be effective or safe long-term. It has been noted that DHEA can bring estrogen levels in postmenopausal women to levels equal to that observed in standard hormone-replacement therapy. This may prove risky inasmuch as it has been shown that taking estrogen without concomitant use of progesterone is an established risk factor for uterine cancer.
some extra info
cut and paste into google for the exact source.DHEA MECHANISM OF ACTION: Potential mechanisms of action for DHEA
are extensive. The range of projected actions is so wide (brain,
cardiovascular and immune system effects, anti-cancer or carcinogenic
(depending on dose), anti-obesity, bone protective, etc.), it raises
the question of whether a single compound is responsible for all of
the actions. Ongoing studies suggest several mechanisms of action:
a) as a non-competitive inhibitor of glucose 6-phosphate
dehydrogenase (G6PD), the rate-limiting enzyme in the pentose
phosphate pathway which provides ribose 5-phosphate and NADPH, b) as
a "neurosteroid" through interactions with neuronal GABA and sigma
receptors, c) through regulation of enzyme activity or bioregulatory
factors and their receptors (e.g., enoyl CoA hydratase,
carbomylphosphate synthetase, malic enzyme, glycerol-3- phosphate
dehydrogenase, T cell IgD receptor, cytokines), or d) through
regulation of gene expression (e.g., various cytochrome P450s,
NADPH-cytochrome P450 reductase, fatty acyl CoA oxidase). There are a
small number of reports in the literature of 'receptors' for DHEA,
but as yet no study has unequivocally identified these DHEA 'binding
proteins' as nuclear transcription factors.
12-23-2006, 01:28 PM
12-23-2006, 04:19 PM
Adding HC my DHEA, Total and Free T levels went way up. Total T went from 900 1250.Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
12-24-2006, 11:40 PM
DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain.
After all the research ItsHectic has presented, I am really reluctant to using DHEA as a supplement as I'm afraid that it may convert mostly to Estrogen rather than testosterone... even at 25mg per day.
12-25-2006, 12:21 AM
You guys are nuts! I'm telling you this stuff has a major androgenic predominance! I can't take over 200mg/d without getting acne and growing body hair. It is not estrogenic at all. If anything, it's too androgenic. That's it main limiting factor. Try it and see what I mean. A week of dose experimentation will not kill you either way and is extremely unlikely to result in any sequelae. It will totally change your mind because you got the wrong idea about DHEA!Originally Posted by BigAk
12-25-2006, 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by BigAkApril-2005 my DHEAs was 118 (280-640 µg/dL)Originally Posted by DR.D
I am supplementing long time with
50mg DHEA plus 200mg 7ketoDHEA
My blood DHEAs went up only to 369
thinking of additional increase since LEF recomends (400-600)
I am probably missing on some other nutrients, what that may be?
I am 66yo, 5'9", 155#
I am taking (good quality DHEA from LEF), so hopefully quality is of no concern here.
Dhea Complete, 60 Capsules
Dhea (Dehydroepiandrosterone) Free Base, 100 Mg 60 Capsules
12-25-2006, 11:37 PM
So what's the difference between 7ketoDHEA and the plain DHEA?? And why do we need to take both?Originally Posted by JanSz
12-26-2006, 01:39 AM
EDIT by Dr. Crisler: THAT question is out of bounds with respect to steroid use. Sorry.
Last edited by Dr. John; 12-26-2006 at 05:48 PM.
12-26-2006, 05:58 PM
I'm in agreement with you too. I am suggesting that I must be an atypical responder due to differences in enzymes or something, because DHEA is a stronger androgen (qualitatively) than anything else I have ever used, as far as literal manifestations like acne, body hair growth, etc. you would associate with androgen and no estrogen sides at all. I would guess this paradoxical response may be more common than currently recognized unless it is truly just an idiosyncrasy. Look at the individual above that has been using 300mg and is still not even in range!Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-26-2006, 06:12 PM
12-26-2006, 09:23 PM
I realize that DHEA is produced by the adrenal glands as well as by the testes. My questions are:
1) what prompts the testes to produce DHEA?? Is there a negative feedback mechanism similar to testosterone production??
2) If the SERMs cause an increase in testosterone production via LH, do they also prompt the testes to produce more DHEA precursor??
3) If someone is trying to recover his HPTA and increase testosterone production via SERMs, is it futile to do so if the levels of DHEA are below normal?
4) If Total Estrogen is high in a patient with a below-normal DHEA and low-normal E2, isn't it counterproductive to supplement with DHEA (even at a low dose of 25mg) and risk wrecking HPTA recovery with elevating Total Estrogen to even higher levels?
5)...... that's it for now...
12-26-2006, 10:58 PM
Is 7-Keto DHEA the same, or should this just be "plain" DHEA?Originally Posted by Dr. John
12-26-2006, 11:08 PM
12-27-2006, 02:20 PM
12-27-2006, 03:00 PM
I have an appointment with the venerable Dr. John tomorrow about it, so then I'll know for sure. I did some reading (Google knows everything), and it looks like 7-keto DHEA does not convert to T or E. It is a metabolite (converted from) of DHEA. Apparently DHEA gets converted to a whole mess of things in different places in the body, including T and E, but 7-keto DHEA does not get converted to either.
here are some links
Le Magazine, May 2005 - Cover Story: 7-Keto Dhea The Fat-Burning Metabolite Of Dhea
DHEA for Antiaging*-*Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA): Encyclopedia Article
12-27-2006, 04:37 PM
It seems like 7-keto has poorer oral bioavailability than regular DHEA..that and it is far more expensive.
12-27-2006, 05:56 PM
12-27-2006, 11:54 PM
The statement the DHEA doesn't produce testosterone in the male body isn't really true. It really matter when you measure it. The amount of estrogen that DHEA produces will tend to push back on the HTPA axis. See the attached charts. Since it does indeed produce a testerone spike, there will be also be DHT spike too.
As time goes along the extra estrogen in men is going to push on HTPA axis and balance the Testosterone back down. You could use an AI to lower the estrogen back down and reduce the push on HTPA axis.
12-28-2006, 07:57 AM
I had to wait until MSIE loaded the JPGs fully, then find the "expand" button at the bottom right to bring them to proper magnification.
12-28-2006, 07:57 AM
Are there any studies that show a correlation between the percentage body fat one has and the degree to which DHEA will end up being E2?
12-28-2006, 07:58 AM
12-28-2006, 09:02 AM
Depending on how you have MSIE (Microsoft Internet Explorer) set, you may have to place your cursor over the lower right part of the image until a little graphic pops up. The little graphic has arrows pointing outward in each corner. If you click that graphic, the image will expand and becomes clearer.Originally Posted by wildfox
12-28-2006, 10:29 AM
Dr. JohnOriginally Posted by Dr. John
Do you have recommended blood levels of DHEA?
How to go about to achieve them?
What are the (most common) penalties of not having proper levels?
LEF recommended DHEA levels are:
--------- Normal --------Ideal
Men---- 280-640 ug/dL 500-640 ug/dL
Women --65-380 ug/dL 250-380 ug/dL
LEF dedicated separate protocol that discusses DHEA and 7ketoDHEA
DHEA Restoration Therapy
Dhea Restoration Therapy: Online References For Health Concerns
I am using about 15x of your recommended 25mg supplementation and am still below their recommended range.
Possible (common) reasons why this is happening?
Thank you for your time and expertise.
Happy New Year!!!
12-28-2006, 10:40 AM
JanSz: I'm not the doc, but if you're taking 375mg a day, you might be suppressing something. The body always wants to go back to homeostasis.
There's a saying "a little dab'll do ya". Perhaps you didn't need so much in the first place? Who recommended you take that much in one day?
12-28-2006, 11:37 AM
LEF advisor is reviewing and recommending my supplements.Originally Posted by wildfox
1-800-226-2370 (Membership required, I think)
In their DHEA restoration protocol they state:
"As part of a comprehensive approach to fighting the diseases of aging, Life Extension recommends that people monitor their blood levels of DHEA and strive to reproduce hormone levels of a healthy 21-year-old. Fortunately, DHEA is well tolerated as a supplement, with only minimal side effects even at relatively high doses."
With all this I am obviously open to all opinions.
At this moment I suspect that when people are reporting adverse results of taking rather minimal amounts of DHEA,
I am not doubting what they report, but there may be another than DHEA reason for their problems, or case of some unidentified interactions.
I have similar suspicion on Finasteride, when people stop using it and still have a problems after more than 2 months. It did not happen, at least in my case in regard to DHT. I do not have a personal experience of Finasteride causing low T way after it is not used any more.
The terminal elimination half-life of dutasteride is approximately 5 weeks at steady state. The average steady-state serum dutasteride concentration was 40 ng/mL following 0.5 mg/day for 1 year. Following daily dosing, dutasteride serum concentrations achieve 65% of steady-state concentration after 1 month and approximately 90% after 3 months. Due to the long half-life of dutasteride, serum concentrations remain detectable (greater than 0.1 ng/mL) for up to 4 to 6 months after discontinuation of treatment.
I must say that over year ago LEF advisor recomended Armour Thyroid for me. I was not able to get script for it, that may change soon.
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