Does DHEA supplementation have any impact on the HPTA?

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  1. If one has adrenal fatigue (low cortisol) would taking dhea be counter productive since it is antcortical. I am on TRT but dr does not know anything about pregnenolone. At teh health food store there is a transdermal pregnenolone. What is the usualy recommended amount to balance the pathways. I know bioavailabity is the most important thing and orals are 250-30% less bioavialable then creme. I have been takin licorace root for cortisol levels with isocort and I was wondering if this could be cause estrogen levels to rise. Going to get dhea -s, free testosterone, total t, freet t-3, estrodial checked next time to see what is going one. Ever since I stopped the armidex no more morning wood, mental confusion, and decreased exercise tolerance, fat accumulatins an all the fun stuff of estrogen dominace. i need to get this **** balanced. Dr has been very open about things since all others had abandoned me and just prescribed paxil..Go figure


  2. Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
    If one has adrenal fatigue (low cortisol) would taking dhea be counter productive since it is antcortical.
    When one has Adrenal Fatigue, usually both cortisol and DHEA are low. DHEA dramatically improved my blood sugar control (hypoglycemia) and energy level after adding it in to my existing regimen of daily hydrocortisone. The synergistic effect of both the hydrocortisone and the DHEA together was much better than the hydrocortisone alone.
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  3. That was what i was thinking as well, but I never had a dr that was willing to monitor me so unfortunately I never know what dosage to take, plus with having an estrogen problem which is pretty much obvious (lack of morning erection, drop in energy, poor appetite, weight gain, depression) Could taking dhea make it even worse since it converts to estrogen. I found an interesting study where .5 mgs armidex a day for 10 weeks increased testosterone almost 50% after only the second day. Do you think stopping armidex and just taking the testocreme is a good idea just to get a true base line reading. Like I said before my estrodial was 30 with low free and low testosterone so I can only imagine what it is with 10% testosterone. Also found the study show a deficient increase in DHEA with lower estrogen levels.

    For pregnenolone 50mgs of transdermal once daily Correct.

    What is your opinon of using progesterone if estrogen dominance is indicated or just use the armidex since it is more easily to monitor.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    What have you come across with respect to DHEA-induced hepatoticity at such high doses?
    What kind of doses? Like the 1600mg oral doses in that one study? I can't say that I remember ever running across any adverse liver data really. I think 17-ketos are generally very non-toxic due to their ease of metabolism. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you DJ!

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    DHEA has an antiglucocorticoid effect in mammals, via down regulation of the enzyme 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (11β-HSD-1). 11β-HSD-1 converts cortisone (inactive) into the active glucocorticoid cortisol.

    Your use during times of elevated cortisol activity sure makes sense. DHEA opposes cortisol both in its production and at the points of its actions. If you are using an AI during post cycle therapy, however, same would block the conversion of androstenedione to estrone. If not, there's still no way to know what actual estorgenic activity is without testing--which is not valid during concurrent SERM-class use.
    Yes. Good point. That is why I have no personal bloodwork to offer in this area! Concurrent use of SERM means you can't get a real estrogen value so who knows. Use of DHEA during PCT is just one of those things you try by chance one time and notice that it worked. Then you try to go back and piece together why it worked. DHEA has good corticometric activity like you say and with or without a suicide AI just works well it seems. I stick to the BID dosing (morning and noon), just because it is a rule not to dose past noon, though only a personal rule and I have no relevant data to validate the significance of early dosing.
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  6. I recently saw a DHEA hepatotoxicity study and the range was calculated out to be between 2000 and 10,000 mg per day for humans (based on a rat model).

    I think I would die of oily skin and acne well before my liver failed. We have actually seen anecdotal info from guys using 2 grams of DHEA per day for muscle building purposes. They reported excellent muscle hardness and very mild gains in lbm. What their livers were doing is a good question though.

    In using low doses of DHEA for my wife..it's been amazing to help her recover from the effects of prednisone(she has UC). I have seen some Drs now recommend DHEA to be taken concurrently with any corticosteriod to provide adrenal support. It also appears that DHEA has a stronger anti-inflammatory property than previously known. Most women though, I have noted, are taking way too high of a dose.

  7. My wife has Hashimoto thyroiditis was on Synthroid for 15yrs. never felt good. I got her to stop seeing Endo's and now she sees a Dr. that uses Armour he tested her and found her to have Adrenal Fatigue from being on Synthroid for so long. Her DHEA was below noraml so he started her on 25mgs of DHEA 6 weeks later she was doing better but her DHEA levels were still to low so now she take 25mgs 2x's a day and she if feeling like a new women. Her tests are on the money and now he is treating her Adrenal Fatigue also the first thing he put her on was a script for Fish Oil 3 grams a day. She was able now to start upping her Armour with out feeling Hyper.
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by bioman
    I recently saw a DHEA hepatotoxicity study and the range was calculated out to be between 2000 and 10,000 mg per day for humans (based on a rat model).

    I think I would die of oily skin and acne well before my liver failed. We have actually seen anecdotal info from guys using 2 grams of DHEA per day for muscle building purposes. They reported excellent muscle hardness and very mild gains in lbm. What their livers were doing is a good question though.

    In using low doses of DHEA for my wife..it's been amazing to help her recover from the effects of prednisone(she has UC). I have seen some Drs now recommend DHEA to be taken concurrently with any corticosteriod to provide adrenal support. It also appears that DHEA has a stronger anti-inflammatory property than previously known. Most women though, I have noted, are taking way too high of a dose.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Just 25mg of DHEA will take a 24 hour urine from reference range of (5-1476) to over 10,000. We also see a flood of metabolites-which is why we must hold DHEA for at lest 24 hours prior to testing.

    I have successfully elevated estrogens in several patients at 50mg DHEA BID.
    That is interesting. I knew it was highly bioavailable orally but exceeding the reference 10x is impressive! That suggests to me that use of more than 50mg w/out an AI (or SERM at least) could be potentially suppressive?

  9. I take 10mg of DHEA per day. When I have tried 25mg it results in acne.

    I wonder if I could dodge the bullet with a higher dose SR version, maybe 25mg?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Here's another "pearl":

    Those of you on thyroid should be mindful that you may demonstrate hyperthyroid symptoms once you start, or increase dose of, DHEA. That is because DHEA increases activity of D1, which converts T4 to T3.

    I learned this from my friend Dr. Neal Rouzier, the "Kind of Thyroid". Dr. Rouzier will be speaking in my Pre-Conference track at the A4M National Convention next week, as will Dr. Mark Gordon.
    That is intersting could this be the reasoning that why 7 keto works so well that maybe the increasing the dhea is increasing the ratio of dhea/7keto? or should it claims to increase t-3 conversions. I need to research and find if there are studies back it up that be interesting to see.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    If you have some estrogen issues and you take progesterone, you are going to then have lots of estrogen issues.

    Progesterone has feminizing efects in males.

    I have seen many self-appointed "experts" claim you cannot get gyno from, for instance, Deca. Deca is a progestin, IOW a synthetic progesterone. And I have had guys come to me with gyno from Deca-only use.
    THAT BE ME LOL my progesterone was out of range pregelone was at 5 but drs response "oh you are just a little bit out do not worry its nothing to be concerned about"

    I just checked back on all my labs from previous years and estrodial was never above 22 even at 1100 ng/dl of test, but I had only the one reading where progesterone was elevated, but was ignored..

    Now in this case HCG would not be appropiate since it does increase progesterone and was possible altering effects of testosterone. Could this be plausible?
    Then another dr suggested to take 500 mgs on pregnelone. i politely mentioined "dr isn't the thyroid responsible for converting cholesterol into pregenlone?" He just sat there with a frazzle look on his face.
    This has been the kind of medical advice i have been getting for past 2 years suprise i do not have one foot in the grave already.

    The kicker of it all was first thyroid test reading 3 years ago was serum t-3 was 10 points from lowest range and ft-4 was at 90% higher, testosterone was 40!! and he offered me paxil and seek psychotherapy.

    I like to thank dr john for devoting his time because with there are few DRs that take the time to research and explain things so people can understand. With his information i am learning to avoid certain pit falls before they happen. I may take one step forward but i was taking 3 steps back. Since being on this site and under a compassionate dr who is open minded and enjoys learning new methods. My dr told me if I come up with any new information and there is validation scientifically to back it up then he would be willing to consider it. Now I take 2 steps forward and only one step back. As always for people that help me i always willing to give back as much as i can

  12. How long would it take after coming off small dose of 25mg DHEA for natural levels to come up for testing? I've been taking 25mg DHEA and Pregnenolone 20mg for a month for weaning purposes of HC. Need to do full profile testing.
    -Rob

  13. Raw coming off HC you need to support adrenals with lifestlye modifications would be the biggest aid in recovery (constant sleep patterns, relaxation techniques, ect) Protocol that might help would be

    1500-2000 mgs b5 take first thing in the morning

    100-200 mgs theanine every 4-6 hours
    1000 mgs vitamin ester C 3 times a day
    800 ius vitamin E (responsible for 6 enzymatic reactions down the hormonal cascade)
    rhodiola roscea- helps modulate cortisol level (High or low levels) 150 - 300 mgs once a day
    magnesium 750 mgs - 400 before bed time with 30 mgs zinc
    calcium 1000 mgs
    zinc 50 mgs total daily with 3 mgs copper to balance it out

    hope this helps

  14. Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
    Raw coming off HC you need to support adrenals with lifestlye modifications would be the biggest aid in recovery (constant sleep patterns, relaxation techniques, ect) Protocol that might help would be

    1500-2000 mgs b5 take first thing in the morning

    100-200 mgs theanine every 4-6 hours
    1000 mgs vitamin ester C 3 times a day
    800 ius vitamin E (responsible for 6 enzymatic reactions down the hormonal cascade)
    rhodiola roscea- helps modulate cortisol level (High or low levels) 150 - 300 mgs once a day
    magnesium 750 mgs - 400 before bed time with 30 mgs zinc
    calcium 1000 mgs
    zinc 50 mgs total daily with 3 mgs copper to balance it out

    hope this helps
    Thanks- I do take most of the items in your list except the theanine( never heard of it, but will look into it) and I take the cal/mag/zinc in one tab usually in morning and spread b5 1500 throughout the day. Why do you take these at these times? I'm especially curious about the full 2000 mg b5 in morning? Thanks in advance- Also, thanks to Doctor John

  15. I hate to interrupt this thread with such a basic question, but I'll go ahead and do it anyway. Is taking DHEA transdermally more effective then orally mg for mg? Thanks.

  16. From my experience yes, it gives a sustained boost and feels different overall than taking it orally. Intuitively, you would recieve a small but steady stream rather than a pulse as seems to be the case with a lot of transdermal hormones.

    Hard to quantify the dose you are recieving though.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by bioman
    From my experience yes, it gives a sustained boost and feels different overall than taking it orally. Intuitively, you would recieve a small but steady stream rather than a pulse as seems to be the case with a lot of transdermal hormones.

    Hard to quantify the dose you are recieving though.
    I have been low on DHEA for yrs. when I was on T cream the script said 50mgs DHEA/150 testo my levels were no better then the 25mg. pills I take 2x's a day.
    Phil

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Alexander
    ...Is taking DHEA transdermally more effective then orally mg for mg? Thanks.
    The kinetics are obviously superior with a TD due to sustained release, so sides are reduced while benefits are optimized, but what's it soluble in?! I can't even get 1% concentrations with ethanolic formulas.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    The kinetics are obviously superior with a TD due to sustained release, so sides are reduced while benefits are optimized, but what's it soluble in?! I can't even get 1% concentrations with ethanolic formulas.
    Eh? I'm pretty sure I've seen logs on here before that used Penetrate.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    The kinetics are obviously superior with a TD due to sustained release, so sides are reduced while benefits are optimized, but what's it soluble in?! I can't even get 1% concentrations with ethanolic formulas.
    Really? Strange! Few times ago I put 2.5gr of DHEA in 1oz of a "penetrate like" carrier (isopropanol, isopropyl myristate/palmitate, propylene glycol, limonene,....) with no hassle. It got in without even heating.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    On the other hand, TD's are drectly exposed to aromatase in the skin.

    Lord, I hate it when my mind waffles! LOL.
    I suspect you were still right the first time DJ. You see less undesirable metabolism with TD testosterone and I would think it should be applicable to DHEA as well. I thought this in part was due to steady state concentrations not upregulating inducible enzymes like peaking plasma levels can with oral use, in addition to the affect of extra first pass metabolism. I have seen lots of data on absorption, metabolism and fate of acetate and propionate esters of TD corticoids but am not too familiar with the aromatization potential of unmodified DHEA by TD route. I'll have to look into it because you have me wondering now too!

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Please share your thoughts on this statement.
    Well, oral delivery of testosterone results in unusually high levels of 17-keto metabolites (androstenedione). Unfavorable metabolism starts in the gut, not to mention the first pass in the liver like you mentioned earlier and the aromatase induction that a hormonal spike will promote. 17-ketos are exceptional substrates for this enzyme. You may as well take a little estrone! DHEA seems well suited for oral use because it is already oxidized at the C-17 plus it is apparently very well absorbed and I have never been able to find a good TD delivery system, so I had abandoned that concept until you got me thinking of it again, but test is certainly better delivered TD over oral.

  23. Is taking DHEA with a SERM like nolva as good as taking it with an AI as far as reducing estrogenic sides? With a SERM will their be the estrogen still floating around doing what it does? What about post cycle therapy with DHEA and nolva? I am still confused as to whether DHEA would be supressive or if it would help with getting things back to baseline.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Ddono25
    Is taking DHEA with a SERM like nolva as good as taking it with an AI as far as reducing estrogenic sides? With a SERM will their be the estrogen still floating around doing what it does? What about post cycle therapy with DHEA and nolva? I am still confused as to whether DHEA would be supressive or if it would help with getting things back to baseline.
    I use DHEA in PCT for libido support and cortisol antagonism. Basically 200,100,50 or close to it for the first 3-4 wks only. It doesn't seem to suppress or deny recovery time and really smooths out the initial phase of PCT. I know a lot of guys who get great results like this, though some still argue against it. You should give it a personal trial to know for sure.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    ... Are you using an AI concurrently (which I oppose otherwise--not how I do things, as everyone knows) to inhibit estrogenic conversion from the high dose DHEA, as such estrogen production inhibits HPTA-recovery?
    Oh yes, always with an AI concurrently! I'm not as concerned that it contributes significantly to estrogen biosynthesis as I am about it's ability to amplify the effects of pre-existing estrogen though a metabolite called 5-AD, so attenuating estrogen is the safest plan and appropriate at the time we are discussing anyway.
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