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    injections or gel


    I don't understand why when you read the stickies they say to use pellets or a gel but not injections for trt. I have been on the gel for almost 3 years and my testosterone levels are lower on the gel then they were before I went on. I am on the 5 gram packet of androgel. I was wanting to switch over to 100mg's a week of test enanthate. I have been reading that will keep your test levels around 1,000ngl. I am only 22 and need something done. I was just wondering why everyone seems to say do not use injections? Thanks guys

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    Quote Originally Posted by Get Big or Die
    I don't understand why when you read the stickies they say to use pellets or a gel but not injections for trt. I have been on the gel for almost 3 years and my testosterone levels are lower on the gel then they were before I went on. I am on the 5 gram packet of androgel. I was wanting to switch over to 100mg's a week of test enanthate. I have been reading that will keep your test levels around 1,000ngl. I am only 22 and need something done. I was just wondering why everyone seems to say do not use injections? Thanks guys
    It would help if you could post your Tests with the units and ranges. Not all men can do gels and doing just 5 grams it can make your levels go lower then base line. Here is my problem with this post how do you stay on this for 3 yrs. being this low and your Dr. not doing something about it. Please don't tell me your Dr. is an Endo.

    When you go on gels enough can get into the blood to stop the brain from sending LH and FSH to the Testis to make more T. So if your base line level was say 300 and your skin will not let enough gel into the blood but enough for your brain to see it and stop sending messages to the Testis you can go lower then base line. This is why in the insert that comes with Androgel it says to be tested in the first 2 weeks after starting on the gel. You may need to go up to 10grams and the test in 4 weeks if your not into the upper 1/3 of your labs range then you need to do shots.
    Phil
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18
    Please don't tell me your Dr. is an Endo.
    Not to be a d*ck phil but there are some VERY knowledgeable endocrinologists out there. They specialize in hormones..I do believe they have a fair amount of knowledge in this subject..
    Although a doctor like Dr. John who specializes in HRT would be ideal not all of us live near such doctors..Our choices are GP's or endos... I for one will take an endo anyday over a GP..

    But to each their own..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripw4
    Not to be a d*ck phil but there are some VERY knowledgeable endocrinologists out there. They specialize in hormones..I do believe they have a fair amount of knowledge in this subject..
    Although a doctor like Dr. John who specializes in HRT would be ideal not all of us live near such doctors..Our choices are GP's or endos... I for one will take an endo anyday over a GP..

    But to each their own..
    I only say this from experience I have seen 7 of them in the last 22 yrs that I have been on TRT and not one was anygood. I was taken off my T meds for 2 - 9 weeks at a time by each one. I was told I am Primary and I am not all the blood work was screaming Secondary a Pituitary Problem. There are story after stroy on the boards about men not getting the proper treatment by Endo's. Yes some are good but they are far and few between.

    Hell they are not even good for Thyroid my wife has been sick with Thyroid problems going from one Endo to the other. They look at her test see she in in range and tell her she most be depressed or to lose weight. I am just trying to give men a heads up on this. The last Endo I was sent to I called and asked all kinds of questions got all the best answers. Went to see the Dr. was told to stop all my meds for a base line test and this was a red flag I was told to bring my tests in he never looked at them. So I asked him how many men do your treat for this and he told me I am his first.
    Phil
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    Some may not want to do injections for a variety of reasons. They may fear needles, may have a family and want to keep needles away from them, or they may have some sexy GF and would rather have her rub the gel on the poke them in the glute

    I've done transdermals and injections and I'll stick to injections and only use dermals at the beginning of a cycle (if at all). IM injections are easy to administer, they're not painful, and they're not a hassle like dermals.
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    In most cases if gels work they are a better means because there is a steady state administration and levels are therefore steady. They tends to be less estrogen elevation when administering this way. But there is the inconvenience of daily application.

    Injections produce a fluctuation in levels with peak and lower levels ranging between injections. There is also the potential to elevate estrogen caused by peak levels right after injections. This fluctuation and or elevation of estrogen may require the use of an AI.

    There is also the issue of sterility, needle phobia, injection sites, absess' and soreness with injections.
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    Hi B

    If you look at the recipe for Androgel, it actually is an inferior TD. You are better off making your own or kicking it up a notch BAM!!
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    I see an urologist for this and no he does not want to do anything about it. When I first had my testosterone run it was about 350ng and now being on the gel it is 226ng. I am just fed up with it and I am not scared of needles and I have done steroids while on the gel.
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    The thing about TRT is that too little actually worsens the condition. You have your own endogenous test levels which are low to being with. Then you introduce exogenous testosterone which inhibits your own production. Once you are inhibited, depending upon the dose, the net result is lower test than what you started with.

    5 grams a day is a net of 5mg a day or 35mg a week. 10g a day would net you 70mg a week. 100mg of Test-E per week is a net of approx 70mg after you account for the ester weight.

    Your doctor needs to increase your dose incrementally to 7.5g/d and 10g/d until results are what you are looking for. But it seems that your doctor is either ignorant or obstinant. Gel or inject, your still need to have someone who knows what they are doing prescribe it to you if you desire to remain legit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get Big or Die
    I see an urologist for this and no he does not want to do anything about it. When I first had my testosterone run it was about 350ng and now being on the gel it is 226ng. I am just fed up with it and I am not scared of needles and I have done steroids while on the gel.
    A urogolist specializes in the "plumbing" not the hormones. See an endocrinologist, or better yet, go see Dr. Crisler. It's worth it.

    WF
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get Big or Die
    I see an urologist for this and no he does not want to do anything about it. When I first had my testosterone run it was about 350ng and now being on the gel it is 226ng. I am just fed up with it and I am not scared of needles and I have done steroids while on the gel.
    All you need to do is read the insert that comes with the androgel in it it states to retest in 2 weeks to be sure your levels are high enough. If you don't have this go to Androgel.com and read it. Then show this to your Dr. and tell him to up the dose if he will not do this ask why like is my blood to thick my levels are lower then my base line if he still will not do anything find a new Dr. Read the sticky Finding a new Dr. and start making calls.
    Phil
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18 View Post
    All you need to do is read the insert that comes with the androgel in it it states to retest in 2 weeks to be sure your levels are high enough. If you don't have this go to Androgel.com and read it. Then show this to your Dr. and tell him to up the dose if he will not do this ask why like is my blood to thick my levels are lower then my base line if he still will not do anything find a new Dr. Read the sticky Finding a new Dr. and start making calls.
    Phil
    Testim Gel is great, after the first month on it I was feeling awesome. Sex drive through the roof, voice actually deepened even more, very confident and calm all the time, something strange is that I was literally busting Peter North size loads multiple times per day. The only problem was Testim was costing way too much, whereas I could be injecting for a fraction of the cost. I decided to start Test-e shots, 100mg twice a week. For the first couple weeks on the shots everything was great. After that, it all leveled out and I was pretty much back to where I started. On a scale of 1-10 (10 being outstanding), I felt like a 10 on Testim, and a 4 on test-e injections.

    When I first went in for my blood test after a few weeks on Testim, it showed my test level being a little over 1400!! My test level after being on 100mg twice a week of test-e injections yielded a test level of 896, with free test at 251. What would happen if I were to give myself a 200mg test-e shot?

    I wish I could feel like I did on Testim.. :-\
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    First if you put on the testim and went and did labs with in 6 hrs your levels are not true you spiked up your levels by putting on the gel first then doing labs. It is not possable to get levels 1400 on the most Testis you can put on. The way you need to do labs is to get up shower off all the old gel go do your labs come home and put on the gel. This is the best way to get a true level.

    If you can't do this shower put on the gel keeping it off the arm you going get the blood test from and do labs test after 6 hrs.

    Why your feeling this way on shots and you have dam good levels on them is your Estradiol must be to high you need to test this most men on TRT are going to end up with high levels of Estraidol and this undoes any good the Testosterone dose. And when high above 30 pg/ml it will kill your sex life and make you feel Panic feelings here is a copy of a post to John from one of the Co Mods at my forum about how one feels with high Estraidol levels.
    ============================== ============================== ==================
    Hi John,

    I just wanted to add that your swollen ankles can be caused by high
    Estradiol (E2) levels.

    When my E2 was very high, my legs and feet were swollen so much that I
    couldn't even wear shoes. Once I got my E2 down to normal levels, all
    of the swelling went away completely and has not returned.

    When you add testosterone to your body, it can convert into estrogen via
    a chemical called "aromatase". Your liver produces aromatase, your fat
    cells contain aromatase, etc. There are different parts of estrogen,
    but the only part that men really care about is "estradiol" (E2).

    Like Phil said, when E2 goes up, it "makes you feel like crap and kills
    your sex life". As E2 levels go up, SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)
    levels tend to go up, too. SHBG attaches itself to testosterone and
    basically makes the testosterone useless. In other words, you can have
    "good" levels of testosterone, but if your SHBG is too high, you still
    feel like you have low testosterone.

    Here is a list of some of the symptoms of high E2 (you don't have to
    experience all of the symptoms to know that you have high E2):
    * Depression
    * Trouble reaching an orgasm
    * No erections while sleeping (i.e. "night wood" or "morning wood")
    * Anxiety
    * Panic Attacks
    * Prostate problems
    * Gynecomastia
    * Water Retention
    * Dizziness/Vertigo
    * Increased Blood Pressure
    * Decreased Libido
    * ED
    * When penis is limp, it doesn't hang low (it seems to try to crawl back up)
    * Asthma like issues (due to increased water retention around the lungs)
    * Trouble sleeping at night - waking up multiple times per night
    * Lack of Libido
    * Crying while watching TV shows/movies
    * Easier to get angry (think PMS)
    * Insulin Resistance (getting tired after eating a meal - if left
    untreated, it can lead to Type II Diabetes)
    * Larger stomach
    * Redness on the face and/or chest
    * Feeling hotter than everybody else
    * Thinner skin/bleeding easier

    Ryan
    Hypogonadism2 Co-Moderator - not a medical professional.



    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle View Post
    Testim Gel is great, after the first month on it I was feeling awesome. Sex drive through the roof, voice actually deepened even more, very confident and calm all the time, something strange is that I was literally busting Peter North size loads multiple times per day. The only problem was Testim was costing way too much, whereas I could be injecting for a fraction of the cost. I decided to start Test-e shots, 100mg twice a week. For the first couple weeks on the shots everything was great. After that, it all leveled out and I was pretty much back to where I started. On a scale of 1-10 (10 being outstanding), I felt like a 10 on Testim, and a 4 on test-e injections.

    When I first went in for my blood test after a few weeks on Testim, it showed my test level being a little over 1400!! My test level after being on 100mg twice a week of test-e injections yielded a test level of 896, with free test at 251. What would happen if I were to give myself a 200mg test-e shot?

    I wish I could feel like I did on Testim.. :-\
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle View Post
    Testim Gel is great, after the first month on it I was feeling awesome. Sex drive through the roof, voice actually deepened even more, very confident and calm all the time, something strange is that I was literally busting Peter North size loads multiple times per day. The only problem was Testim was costing way too much, whereas I could be injecting for a fraction of the cost. I decided to start Test-e shots, 100mg twice a week. For the first couple weeks on the shots everything was great. After that, it all leveled out and I was pretty much back to where I started. On a scale of 1-10 (10 being outstanding), I felt like a 10 on Testim, and a 4 on test-e injections.

    When I first went in for my blood test after a few weeks on Testim, it showed my test level being a little over 1400!! My test level after being on 100mg twice a week of test-e injections yielded a test level of 896, with free test at 251. What would happen if I were to give myself a 200mg test-e shot?

    I wish I could feel like I did on Testim.. :-\
    Have a compound pharamcy make you up the something with same formulation which they can do ..Be sure to have a good compounding pharmacy do ti.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Have a compound pharamcy make you up the something with same formulation which they can do ..Be sure to have a good compounding pharmacy do ti.
    I wish my endo would prescribe me a damn AI, I get most of those symptoms and my estrogen showed 96 (106 being highest on lab). I don't get it
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle View Post
    I wish my endo would prescribe me a damn AI, I get most of those symptoms and my estrogen showed 96 (106 being highest on lab). I don't get it
    might be able to help you..
    Give me a PM..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    might be able to help you..
    Give me a PM..
    I sent the PM, but it doesn't show if it was sent or not. Did you get it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle View Post
    I sent the PM, but it doesn't show if it was sent or not. Did you get it?
    Yep and responded. Its time to do things the right way
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    I am sorry to have to say this but your problem is your seeing an Endo they are not anygood for male hormones I seen 7 in my life and not one was any good. And I read about men seeing them all over the web and wish they never see them.
    If you can't get Arimidex from your Endo with levels like this what does that tell you. It tells you find a better Dr. WTF man is he thinking E2 levels like this make me very dam sick and if they are on TRT they end up with high levels of SHBG and this binds up the Testosterone in there body so it's not working so your labs look good but you feel like crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle View Post
    I wish my endo would prescribe me a damn AI, I get most of those symptoms and my estrogen showed 96 (106 being highest on lab). I don't get it
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18 View Post
    I am sorry to have to say this but your problem is your seeing an Endo they are not anygood for male hormones I seen 7 in my life and not one was any good. And I read about men seeing them all over the web and wish they never see them.
    If you can't get Arimidex from your Endo with levels like this what does that tell you. It tells you find a better Dr. WTF man is he thinking E2 levels like this make me very dam sick and if they are on TRT they end up with high levels of SHBG and this binds up the Testosterone in there body so it's not working so your labs look good but you feel like crap.
    Good point and I gave him a good resource.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    I wish I could get prescribed test-cyp and gel at the same time. I like injections because there's no transference and the frequency of dosing is less than gels (and it's guaranteed absorption). But I like the DHT increase from gels, which I don't get from injections. Most of my test from injection and then a little bit of gel on the nads once in a while for DHT would be perfect for me. If I could get injectable DHT with my test, even better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I wish I could get prescribed test-cyp and gel at the same time. I like injections because there's no transference and the frequency of dosing is less than gels (and it's guaranteed absorption). But I like the DHT increase from gels, which I don't get from injections. Most of my test from injection and then a little bit of gel on the nads once in a while for DHT would be perfect for me. If I could get injectable DHT with my test, even better.
    Why can't we just get injectable DHT?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle View Post
    Why can't we just get injectable DHT?
    Their are ways around this
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle View Post
    I wish my endo would prescribe me a damn AI, I get most of those symptoms and my estrogen showed 96 (106 being highest on lab). I don't get it

    Try a Wellness Practitioner . Iím starting one now; his literature told me that he knows what heís doing . Iíll be doing bio-identical test, hcg, and an AI (maybe amridex, I donít remember). Iím already doing or taking most of what he recommends. So far weíre impressed with each other. I told him heís the only one who knows more about this than I most of which I got here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBinMD View Post
    Try a Wellness Practitioner . I’m starting one now; his literature told me that he knows what he’s doing . I’ll be doing bio-identical test, hcg, and an AI (maybe amridex, I don’t remember). I’m already doing or taking most of what he recommends. So far we’re impressed with each other. I told him he’s the only one who knows more about this than I most of which I got here.
    Hes already been hooked up with one of the best.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    thanks, matrix. I'm interested on your thoughts regarding a thread i started over in Over 35 regarding cholesterol meds when/if you have the time.
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    i'd do the androgel 1.62% if my insurance covered it, and may try axiron as they have the $25 a month copay card for 12 months.

    Your problem isn't using the gel, the problem is the dose of the gel is too low.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBinMD View Post
    thanks, matrix. I'm interested on your thoughts regarding a thread i started over in Over 35 regarding cholesterol meds when/if you have the time.
    Statins cause major damage to mitochondrion which may not be reversed. They lower co q10, by lowering total cholesterol you lower you cortisol, testosterone, and any other hormone produced from cholesterol. In majorty of cases I would say 95% do not need statin drugs when livestyles, hormones, sleep hygiene, thyroid, adrenals , nutrients are in proper balance. I have gotten many people off of them under their dr's supervision over the past year. Note there are the 5-10% of the people who are just genetically predisposed who need them. You find this out when you get them all tuned up and Dr starts to slowly reduce the drug levels do not budge or get worse. If you have one of these people then proper saftet guards need to be put in his place.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Good point and I gave him a good resource.
    I agree. I do not like statins, but some will run dangerous Cholesterol levels without them. If you do have to take a statin be sure to also take CoQ10 supplement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrGolan View Post
    I agree. I do not like statins, but some will run dangerous Cholesterol levels without them. If you do have to take a statin be sure to also take CoQ10 supplement.
    so far as i'm concerned and from all actual medical evidence i've seen there isn't such a thing as a dangerous cholesterol level when triglyceride levels are in control.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Their are ways around this
    what ways?
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    I did 100mg of Ubiqunol (sp?) everyday didn't help at all. Rather than hijack this thred if you want to talk about statins go to my post under 35 and over.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrGolan View Post
    I agree. I do not like statins, but some will run dangerous Cholesterol levels without them. If you do have to take a statin be sure to also take CoQ10 supplement.
    Dr it goes further then that as I have people I have helped who have been disabled by these drugs, Coenyzme q10 is just the tip of a person has been on for a long time. I have seen people who could walk now having to use walkers, or even bed ridden. I think they just put on the label about it causing some muscular side effects. The FU thing is that it damages muscle but at mitochondrion level as you know so you have to work at the cellular membrane to repair. Even after you stop the things damage can continue for many months or possible years after wards. Anything to make a quick buck off people misery...To repair damage from prolong use you are talking 600-1200 mgs ubiquinol a day along with PPQ 10-30 mgs, among a slew of other things. One guy in here easily pays $300 a month if not more in supplements to correct this damage even if it is even correctable. Dr I agree 100% there are a small percentage of people, question is how many could be corrected by Dr emphaising lifestyle changes, proper nutrition, ect rather then saying here's a pill . People want the easy way out so the Dr just appeases them no skin off his back...
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    so far as i'm concerned and from all actual medical evidence i've seen there isn't such a thing as a dangerous cholesterol level when triglyceride levels are in control.
    bingo all the research needs to look at trigycerides and HDL not total cholesterol. Some rare cases I have recommended Dr's further APO-e gene testing on people and you find out some hidden factors for heart disease manly arteries.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    If my triglycerides are low, but my LDL is higher than my HDL, this is fine?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    If my triglycerides are low, but my LDL is higher than my HDL, this is fine?
    if your HDL is still over 40 (over 60 even better) , then yeah, thats virtually no issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    If my triglycerides are low, but my LDL is higher than my HDL, this is fine?
    Just means low carb diet or it can also mean triglycerides can be getting trapped in your liver and not being released out into the blood stream. I had this long time ago, even on a normal balanced diet. None as NASH not clincally speaking but your fats where not being processed properly due to possible bile issues (sluggish liver)
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Yeah I'm on a balanced diet now and not low carb. Inositol and soy lecithin should help that?

    I also have ursodiol. But recently I bought a large tub of soy lecithin and a huge container of inositol with choline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Yeah I'm on a balanced diet now and not low carb. Inositol and soy lecithin should help that?

    I also have ursodiol. But recently I bought a large tub of soy lecithin and a huge container of inositol with choline.
    Phospho C will work even better emulsifed expansive as can be but does work wonders for clearning out membranes and liver
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    I'm worried about taking a high dose phosphotidyl choline (sp) product because of it's effects on lowering cortisol
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