[Diancecht]

Originally Posted by Marshall

Try a few different approaches to see what works best for you. I use a 20g to withdraw and then switch to 25g to inject IM. I've never tried to withdraw an oil-based solution with less than a 20g but I'm sure it would work fine. My only recommendation based on experience is make sure to do your research on injections if you're doing IM yourself. I thought I knew what I was doing until I stuck a 1 1/2" needle to far down on the side of my leg. The needle hit the nerve and you can only imagine the pain. That's one mistake I'll never make again. I've heard similar stories about IM in the glute. But SubQ is a breeze, just never tried it with T.

Good Luck!!

The side of the thigh is well supplied with sensory nerves (such as the lateral femoral cutaneous nerve) which is why it is a primary target in Thai Boxing, MMA etc. As mentioned above the upper outer quadrant of the glute has been and continues to be the primary site for IM injections. Dont deviate from there because of the major nerves that run elsewhere (e.g. the sciatic nerve)in the glute . The glute also has the advantage of being such a large muscle mass there is relatively less discomfort due to relatively less distention of the muscle from the volume of the injection. Very large volumes may require injections of both glutes to reduce muscle soreness. This would not be expected to be necessary if you are using volumes such 1cc.

Also make the sure the muscle is completely relaxed during the injection, otherwise you will get increased discomfort upon insertion of the needle. As always use as aseptic a technique as possible. Reviewing it with your provider is recoommended.

[Diancecht]

Originally Posted by JanSz

The basic system as deviced by dr John
is one T shot per week and two HCG shots at the two days before shot.

It works for majority, I think.
There is group that does not feel good at this frequency and feels better on more frequent injections.

Dr Marianco speculated that the low SHBG is the reason for need for more freequent shots.

I have used succesfully used E3D schedule, but on the day of the shot I had T +hcg+ Liquidex.

I noted fluctuations in consistency of my testicles.

Now I am doing E2D schedule, one day T shot the other day HCG.

It makes some difference, not really big.

Do you by chance have a copy of Dr Crislers protocols. I didnt get a copy of them before they were removed. They looked like good rational protocols that are certainly worth considering.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by Diancecht

Do you by chance have a copy of Dr Crislers protocols. I didnt get a copy of them before they were removed. They looked like good rational protocols that are certainly worth considering.

It is someplace on this thread here:
TRT: A Recipe for Success - Anabolic Steroids and Bodybuilding
=================================

Also you can visit good doctor right here:
All Things Male - Center for Men's Health

the two publications:
TRT: A Recipe for Success
http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc
HCG Update
http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/HCGupdate.doc

also his list of medications:
All Things Male - Center for Men's Health

All Things Male - Center for Men's Health
===========================================
also since I have your attention;

I am expecting Pregnyl 1500iu, (two ampoules, powder + liquid)

I foresee problems that my not materialize.

How to open the ampoule if pre-scored?

if not prescored, where to get file that would do the job,
looking at my nail file, I do not think so.

I intend to do the whole job of mixing and injecting using either 5/16" or 1/2" needle.
To do that I need to break ampoule at the neck (not higher on top).
If the ampoule is already prescored at the top, is it safe or just plain doable, to score it additionally at the neck.

I called two pharmacies, they do not sell any tools or ampoule oppeners.

[Diancecht]

Originally Posted by JanSz

It is someplace on this thread here:
TRT: A Recipe for Success - Anabolic Steroids and Bodybuilding
=================================

Also you can visit good doctor right here:
All Things Male - Center for Men's Health

the two publications:
TRT: A Recipe for Success
http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc
HCG Update
http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/HCGupdate.doc

also his list of medications:
All Things Male - Center for Men's Health

All Things Male - Center for Men's Health
===========================================
also since I have your attention;

I am expecting Pregnyl 1500iu, (two ampoules, powder + liquid)

I foresee problems that my not materialize.

How to open the ampoule if pre-scored?

if not prescored, where to get file that would do the job,
looking at my nail file, I do not think so.

I intend to do the whole job of mixing and injecting using either 5/16" or 1/2" needle.
To do that I need to break ampoule at the neck (not higher on top).
If the ampoule is already prescored at the top, is it safe or just plain doable, to score it additionally at the neck.

I called two pharmacies, they do not sell any tools or ampoule oppeners.

In our chemistry courses we sometimes had to modify our glassware etc. We used files for that. Perhaps a place that supplies for glass blowers or a supplier of chemicals for schools. I remember them being a trianglure type of file. Usually just scoring it well will work. Of course when breakng it make sure you are wearing gloves or at least handle the ampule with a towel in case of glass shards etc.
Hope this helps.

[KSman]

Originally Posted by Diancecht

The research shows that properly done test cyp given once per week achieves steady blood levels after the 3rd to 4th dose.

TT levels fall a lot during one week and that does not change after a number of doses. Many will feel this effect. Sinking T levels simply do not feel right. Whatever the research was, I doubt that the well being of the test subjects or patients was the objective.

Whatever was meant by steady blood levels is unknown and many would consider that statement false.

If that statement was true, that does not offer any explanation of why many find that they feel better with more frequent injections.

Many also find more frequent injections more comfortable than deep injections. There is more than one dimension to this.

[Diancecht]

Originally Posted by KSman

TT levels fall a lot during one week and that does not change after a number of doses. Many will feel this effect. Sinking T levels simply do not feel right. Whatever the research was, I doubt that the well being of the test subjects or patients was the objective.

Whatever was meant by steady blood levels is unknown and many would consider that statement false.

If that statement was true, that does not offer any explanation of why many find that they feel better with more frequent injections.

Many also find more frequent injections more comfortable than deep injections. There is more than one dimension to this.

Variations are present with injections even if you did them twice daily. So the question is not if there are variations but rather are the variations significant. The blood levels seen with test cyp given weekly show variations that arent even a fraction of what is seen is normal physiology so the statement is not false. Most men cant tell what their test level is moment to moment. Perhaps you are an exception.

Regarding subq vs IM its your choice. I prefer IM because its a method has shown to be effective for a long time. Personally while I have no problem with needles the less I have to inject the better.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by KSman

TT levels fall a lot during one week and that does not change after a number of doses. Many will feel this effect. Sinking T levels simply do not feel right. Whatever the research was, I doubt that the well being of the test subjects or patients was the objective.
Whatever was meant by steady blood levels is unknown and many would consider that statement false.

If that statement was true, that does not offer any explanation of why many find that they feel better with more frequent injections.

Many also find more frequent injections more comfortable than deep injections. There is more than one dimension to this.

Originally Posted by Diancecht

Variations are present with injections even if you did them twice daily. So the question is not if there are variations but rather are the variations significant. The blood levels seen with test cyp given weekly show variations that arent even a fraction of what is seen is normal physiology so the statement is not false. Most men cant tell what their test level is moment to moment. Perhaps you are an exception.

Regarding subq vs IM its your choice. I prefer IM because its a method has shown to be effective for a long time. Personally while I have no problem with needles the less I have to inject the better.

Once/week injections is an happy medium to satisfy most patients.

Less often injections are not succesfull at such a rate that should not be used.

Some men do not feel good on weekly injection and feel much better when the frequency is incresed.

It is hard to argue with KSman, he tried either way, he know what works for him. There are other people on this board with similar experience.
-------------------

IM vs SubQ issue I see from long range perspective.

Phil on this board have a hard time finding good place to inject due to scar tissue buidup after over decade of injections.

I expect smalles and shortest 31ga 5/16" long needle to produce less scar tissue during 20 or 40 years of remaning lifespan.

I know of at least two people who have devices implanted so they can accept frequent (intravenous) injections.

[tawney]

Dianececht said to KSMan:
"Variations are present with injections even if you did them twice daily. So the question is not if there are variations but rather are the variations significant. The blood levels seen with test cyp given weekly show variations that arent even a fraction of what is seen is normal physiology so the statement is not false. Most men cant tell what their test level is moment to moment. Perhaps you are an exception."

I disagree completely with this statement. This person is NOT an exception. I tried once weekly myself and you ABSOLUTELY CAN CAN CAN and DO feel a huge difference in your mood and energy level on day one than on day 7. the best way to explain it is this: day one is that great 2 beer buzz, and day 7 feels like 4 hours after you wake up from a 6 beer nap and feel like flatened dog sh*t.

an EOD or even a once every 3-4 day schedule smooths this problem out. PERIOD.

JMO- but I'm right, and so is KSMan! LOLOLOLOL

[KSman]

Originally Posted by Diancecht

Variations are present with injections even if you did them twice daily. So the question is not if there are variations but rather are the variations significant. The blood levels seen with test cyp given weekly show variations that aren't even a fraction of what is seen is normal physiology so the statement is not false.

A young man would have high T levels.

Read this abstract:
http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/...tract/10/5/366

"""
Also, each young man showed a significant circadian rhythm.
"""

There is a benefit to the accelerating T levels that one does not get from injections. Successful transdermals could do some of this. Perhaps a lower foundation of injected T and TD providing the variations could be a much better therapy. In the above study, they are measuring T that is not SHBG bound. That will be free T and weakly bound; mostly to albumin. Note that albumin levels drop with age for some and that increased SHBG bound T.

With the above in mind: Young men have the effects of T variations that, in this study, shown to be quite large. The levels go up and down, but the mean levels and patterns are quite steady day to day.

In contrast; with weekly injections, there is a T spike which leads to a spike in E2. T, E and SHBG will have a weekly pattern. Where normal young men have T going up and down. There is a spike of T, but many soon do not feel the injection spikes, perhaps from the E levels and spikes. What do guys feel? They feel T levels dropping rapidly day by day. Sinking T levels every day is not a good outcome. That is the problem.

The outcome can easily be E dominated unless E2 levels are controlled. That issue is common to any T delivery methods.

Hormone levels in the body are always changing. If your car was like this, it would go 20mph at times and 100mph at others. From an engineering process control point of view, this does not seem to be a proper control system. The body seems to need to see changing levels and if some hormones are steady state, cells and receptors can be come desensitized. While weekly injections create an adverse effect, dead steady levels are not ideal but many will find that this is better. The fact that many find that weekly injections work well for them, relative to how they felt before TRT; does not address the possibility that they might feel better with EOD injections.

[Nemesis RR]

On a weekly dose I feel better for 2 to 3 days but after that my energy starts to diminish quickly. That is why I take 2 doses a week. I rather have steady energy all week than crazy energy for only a few days.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by Nemesis RR

On a weekly dose I feel better for 2 to 3 days but after that my energy starts to diminish quickly. That is why I take 2 doses a week. I rather have steady energy all week than crazy energy for only a few days.

I use E2D schedule

day#1 T-shot, 0.25cc Anastrozole
day#2 500iu HCG, Methyl-B12 shot

For all my shots I use
http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant....Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

[KSman]

Originally Posted by Nemesis RR

On a weekly dose I feel better for 2 to 3 days but after that my energy starts to diminish quickly. That is why I take 2 doses a week. I rather have steady energy all week than crazy energy for only a few days.

I know the effect of the lift that you seek. For many who start TRT without anastrozole, the dead end of the week becomes longer and longer until it is 7 days long and you feel low and cannot feel anything stimulating from the injections at all. That is estrogen poisoning. I do not know to what degree that loss of lift happens guys who start TRT with 1mg/wk anastrozole.

I did not start with anastrozole and weekly injections were killing me. Added 250iu hCG EOD and that created a small constant baseline of T production. So my hole at the end of the week was not so deep. I then switched to T EOD and that leveled things off. There was not a loss of an injection lift... that was long gone, but there was never any feeling of dropping into a hole. Steady felt good.

Later, adding anastrozole was a profound change for the better. Too bad that I cannot talk about starting TRT with T+AI+hCG. I did get some guys that I worked with to get started on T+AI+hCG from the start.

[Nemesis RR]

Originally Posted by JanSz

I use E2D schedule

day#1 T-shot, 0.25cc Anastrozole
day#2 500iu HCG, Methyl-B12 shot

For all my shots I use
http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant....Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

Is it a big ***** to get the cyp in that tiny needle? How long does it take to load up?

[KSman]

Originally Posted by Nemesis RR

Is it a big ***** to get the cyp in that tiny needle? How long does it take to load up?

I use #29, .5ml, .5"

test cyp

I pull the plunger all the way back* and hang the vial and syringe. Come back after ~5 minutes and it is full, push out some gas and top it up. I load .56ml and shoot .14ml four times [98mg/wk].

It is slower if you are holding it and watching it.

* creates a vacuum and the benzyl alcohol boils out. The vapor merges back into the oil as filling completes. The -ve pressure in the syringe is then the vapour pressure of the alcohol. There will be somewhat less than a 14.7 PSI pressure differential when filling. When injecting a .3 or .5ml syringe with its small piston area creates huge pressures and injection times are very reasonable for these small amounts.

My syringe has a .15" bore. With that, 4 pounds of force creates 225 PSI. The pressure during loading is unknown. But lets say that it is 14PSI. The pressure when injecting is then 16 time greater then when loading. The 4 pounds pressure is a guess, but one can apply substantial force if avoiding the plunger shaft buckling.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by KSman

I use #29, .5ml, .5"

test cyp

I pull the plunger all the way back* and hang the vial and syringe. Come back after ~5 minutes and it is full, push out some gas and top it up. I load .56ml and shoot .14ml four times [98mg/wk].

It is slower if you are holding it and watching it.

* creates a vacuum and the benzyl alcohol boils out. The vapor merges back into the oil as filling completes. The -ve pressure in the syringe is then the vapour pressure of the alcohol. There will be somewhat less than a 14.7 PSI pressure differential when filling. When injecting a .3 or .5ml syringe with its small piston area creates huge pressures and injection times are very reasonable for these small amounts.

My syringe has a .15" bore. With that, 4 pounds of force creates 225 PSI. The pressure during loading is unknown. But lets say that it is 14PSI. The pressure when injecting is then 16 time greater then when loading. The 4 pounds pressure is a guess, but one can apply substantial force if avoiding the plunger shaft buckling.

Good for you.
I was thinking of something like that.
Sometimes plunger comes back.

Describe your contraption, if any, when you are hanging vial with syringe in it.
Or, better, post picture of it.
.
.