Dr. John: your Pro-Op on T and HCG SC QOD?

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  1. Dr. John: your Pro-Op on T and HCG SC QOD?


    Dear Dr. John,

    I wanted to ask you about the following in general as an HRT regimen.

    On another board (not "the old board") there is an HRT thread, and another man under his doctor's care is taking a total of 98 mg Test. Cyp per week. He was originally directed to take it as 14mg SC QD and 125iu hCG SC QD. They determined that actually 28 mg T. Cyp SC QOD with 250iu hCG SC QOD was giving him a better response than either just 100mg per week or 14mg per day. Something about a threshold regarding the T, and the hCG based on the study which I have a link to below.

    I was wondering what your opinion is regarding such frequent SC administration.

    Here is a link to a study regarding QOD hCG administration. Perhaps you are familiar with it?
    dspace dot hsl dot washington dot edu/dspace/bitstream/2012/52/1/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf

    Thanks for your care, and thanks in advance for your response.

    WF


  2. Quote Originally Posted by wildfox
    Dear Dr. John,

    I wanted to ask you about the following in general as an HRT regimen.

    On another board (not "the old board") there is an HRT thread, and another man under his doctor's care is taking a total of 98 mg Test. Cyp per week. He was originally directed to take it as 14mg SC QD and 125iu hCG SC QD. They determined that actually 28 mg T. Cyp SC QOD with 250iu hCG SC QOD was giving him a better response than either just 100mg per week or 14mg per day. Something about a threshold regarding the T, and the hCG based on the study which I have a link to below.

    I was wondering what your opinion is regarding such frequent SC administration.

    Here is a link to a study regarding QOD hCG administration. Perhaps you are familiar with it?
    dspace dot hsl dot washington dot edu/dspace/bitstream/2012/52/1/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf

    Thanks for your care, and thanks in advance for your response.

    WF
    WF the link does not work can you put one in that does. I would like to read this. I do my T shots every 3 days.
    Phil
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by bbuck
    Try this. Think it is what he meant.
    http://dspace.hsl.washington.edu/dsp...Dose_Human.pdf
    Thanks Phil

  4. Bump for the good Doc.
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by wildfox
    Bump for the good Doc.
    Try reading this thead.
    HCG and LH Desensitization: Only in High doses?
    Phil

  6. Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18
    Phil, that does not relate to my question. My question for Dr. John is about dividing a weekly dose of T. Cyp into a daily or every-other-daily dose, along with hcg on the same day. I am not asking about the amount of hCG per dose.

    Thanks. If Dr. John feels this is to specific, I will email him about my question, but I was hoping he's share is general professional opinion about my friend's regimen here.

    WF

  7. Quote Originally Posted by wildfox
    They determined that actually 28 mg T. Cyp SC QOD with 250iu hCG SC QOD was giving him a better response than either just 100mg per week or 14mg per day. Something about a threshold regarding the T, and the hCG based on the study which I have a link to below.
    In this protocol, would they be doing the cyp and hCG on alternate days or would they be on the same day?

  8. I was just curious about the protocol. I could be totally wrong, but I would think SC oil based injections would leave a little lump that would not dissipate very quickly.

    OK...I have to confess...I cannot think of what PK's would be an abbreviation for.

  9. Thanks...I have to confess that I probably would not have come up that one very quickly.

  10. From what someone posted some time ago Dr. Shippen is doing T shot subQ evey 3 days doing half the dose in one side of his belly and the other half in the other side every 3 days. Yes this is a lot of holes. I got my Dr. to let me try this and was told I could use a small needle but I have to shoot into my thigh IM. So I do 40mgs of Depo T every 3 days and 400 IU's of HCG the 2 days in between. My levels are good 900 range 262 to 1593 and my E2 is very good I am only doing .25mgs of Arimidex every 5 days. I was doing .5 mgs everyday dong 150 mgs every week and HCG 350 IU's the 2 days each before my next shot. I for me this works much better. I use a 27g 1ml x 1/2" lg. needle. So I am doing a shot every day between the T and HCG.
    Phil

  11. Doesn't taking your Arimidex every 5 days make your E2 levels rather uneven?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by smitty4
    In this protocol, would they be doing the cyp and hCG on alternate days or would they be on the same day?
    This man self-administers them on the same day just for convenience sake.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by smitty4
    Doesn't taking your Arimidex every 5 days make your E2 levels rather uneven?
    No not realy there are days where I will take it every 3 days but lately it's been every 5 days. One can't just do Arimidex the same dose each time and not go back up high or end up to low. For me the first thing that goes is my morning wood I I go to low. When this happens I check it to see if I can get it up if not I stop the Arimidex until wood comes back. And I take Cialis 20 mgs. every 72 hrs. so when I can't get it up I know it's low E2. This wood thing happens when I am to high but I see other problems when my levels are going to high when I feel them I will go from every 5 days to every 3.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Doesn't really matter.

    Several points. First, this is an extreme protocol. There's just no need to poke that many holes in yourself in the vast majority of cases.

    Next, I currently do not prescribe injectable oil-based medications for subQ injection. ...
    Dr. John, the man I was talking about in my original post uses a 29 gauge needle to inject the T. Cyp IM in the vastus lateralis.

    WF
  15. Exclamation


    Quote Originally Posted by wildfox
    Dear Dr. John,

    I wanted to ask you about the following in general as an HRT regimen.

    On another board (not "the old board") there is an HRT thread, and another man under his doctor's care is taking a total of 98 mg Test. Cyp per week. He was originally directed to take it as 14mg SC QD and 125iu hCG SC QD. They determined that actually 28 mg T. Cyp SC QOD with 250iu hCG SC QOD was giving him a better response than either just 100mg per week or 14mg per day. Something about a threshold regarding the T, and the hCG based on the study which I have a link to below.

    I was wondering what your opinion is regarding such frequent SC administration.

    Here is a link to a study regarding QOD hCG administration. Perhaps you are familiar with it?
    dspace dot hsl dot washington dot edu/dspace/bitstream/2012/52/1/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf

    Thanks for your care, and thanks in advance for your response.

    WF

    Correction: I am the guy doing that.
    The HCG is SC, the Test cyp is IM in the vastus lateralis. (Skin/fat needs to be thin. 1/2" is deep enough for these small volumes (.14ml EOD)). EOD just seemed to feel better, and more convenient with less injections than ED. The ED was a trial to get a dead steady hormone reference state, then tried EOD and stuck with that as is works well with the HCG EOD as a routine. The ED dosing was never intended to be permanent. Compliance is not a problem for me. I initiated these changes. Motivation: Weekly injections of 100mg test cyp became hell for me.

  16. deleted.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by KSman

    Correction: I am the guy doing that.
    The HCG is SC, the Test cyp is IM in the vastus lateralis. (Skin/fat needs to be thin. 1/2" is deep enough for these small volumes (.14ml EOD)). EOD just seemed to feel better, and more convenient with less injections than ED. The ED was a trial to get a dead steady hormone reference state, then tried EOD and stuck with that as is works well with the HCG EOD as a routine. The ED dosing was never intended to be permanent. Compliance is not a problem for me. I initiated these changes. Motivation: Weekly injections of 100mg test cyp became hell for me.
    Sounds good we need to do what works for us.

    I do 200mgs./ml of Depo T .25mls every 3 days and 250 IU's of HCG the 2 days each in between my T shots. I have found this keeps me leveled and helps keep my E2 down. I use a 27g 1ml x 1/2" lg. needle to do both T and HCG shots into my thigh. So I am doing a shot everyday.
    Phil

  18. I'd be curious to hear what Dr Crisler thinks about doing hCG IM....

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    If that is working well for him, then treatment goals have been met.

    I'm just not comfortable with the SC test cyp injections. Not yet, at least.

    But the little bit of "pulsing" this protocol provides I think adds benefit.
    Once again: That info was mis-reported. The test was IM, not SC as reported.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Stone Age.
    Really? Im curious to know the advantages of hCG SQ over IM, and vice versa.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Smaller needles, less pain, fewer holes in muscles, more stable serum levels.
    Interesting. Is there any long term/permanent damage to the muscles from IM injects?

    And if thats the case, is SQ injects of T possibly the wave of the future?

    Ive heard that T is converted to E in the fat. Might this be an issue for SQ injections of T?

    All speculation I know , not medical advise of course.

  22. Technically isnt the T suspended in fat?

  23. Common Doc, do something special for your 1000th post

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Ask anyone who now pools blood in their muscles from too many IM's.
    Help me understand that more completely. Just a layman over here
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