Hypothyroidism, Low Testosterone

[pmgamer18]

More dam good in put From Dr. Marianco.
Phil

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenstermaker
I am a 38 year old male that is post Graves. The treatment I received for Graves was iodine radiation which in turn zapped my Thyroid completely. Currently on 175mcg of synthroid. I have never felt "normal" since. That was about 6 years ago. I put on about 45 pounds and have never been able to lose the weight.

I insisted my Dr check more of my levels than my T3, T4 to see why I feel like crap all the time.
My results came back a follows:

fsh=2.8 in range
LH=4.6 in range
IGF-II=1107 in range
GH= 1.7 in range
Test Total = 196 Low
Test Free %= 2.32
Test Free = 45

After this test result in the beginning of Aug 2006, My Dr put me on Androgel. 2.5 grams daily.

That is when I started my research and found this site. Since my readings, I thought the amount he started me on was very low for a guy my age and size. 38 6'3" 245lbs.

Included in my reading from you guys, you insisted that I make my Dr check my levels again in approx four weeks.....I had to make my Dr agree to this and he did new results are as follows:

Alkaline phosphatase 62
AST 15
ALT 17
Bilirubin total 0.9
Bilirubin Direct 0.2
Protein, Total 7.1
Albumin 4.5

Estrogens Total 96

Test, Total 176
Test % free 2.30
Test, free 40.5

DHT 36


So I recieved a note from my Dr with the test results to increase the Androgel to 5 grams daily and run new tests in 3 months.

I am not thrilled by the new test numbers but I have you talk about the possibility of Test dropping in the first stages. I am not convinced my Dr is completely ready for this challenge that I am facing and he has not suggested that I seek another Dr.

So if anyone can give some input on the relationship of Post Graves to the low test situation I am facing, or if there is no relationship between the two. Also if anyone can suggest a good Doc in the Columbus, Ohio area.

Thanks for sharing you thoughts and time to post, for it has helped me get ready for this TRT journey that I was not aware even existed. The personal situations that you all talk about help relate for us new guys in this problem.

fenstermaker


Good thyroid hormone actilvity is necessary for testicular steroid hormone production - e.g. testosterone production.

Low thyroid hormone activity often results in insulin resistance.

Insulin resistance is another factor that reduces testosterone production. It interferes with LH production and may also directly reduce testicular testosterone production.

The bests tests for available thyroid hormone activity are:
Free T3, Free T4, and TSH.

The free T3 is the most important of the three since it measures the most active thyroid hormone. T3 is about 4 to 10 times more active than T4. It is what the brain measures to determine how much TSH to release.

Synthroid (T4) is not as effective in treating hypothyroidism as a combination of T4 and T3 such as Armour Thyroid. In studies comparing T4 versus T4+T3, patients strongly preferred T4+T3 even if there were no difference in the lab levels. They simply felt better. Armour Thyroid is safer to use versus the available T4+T3 combinations since the thyroid hormone in Armour Thyroid is bound to thyroid binding globulin, and is then slowly released into the body when it is absorbed. Thus Armour Thyroid is a long-acting version of thyroid hormone. This is in contrast to the other T4+T3 combinations or T3 (Cytomel) itself. The problem is the sudden rise in T3 from these has a higher risk of causing problems including cardiac arrhythmias. It is technically more difficult and requires closer physician monitoring to use other T4+T3 combinations and T3 in treating hypothyroidism.

A good starting point is that a person may often show signs and symptoms of hypothyroidism when the free T3 is less than 310 pg/dL.

More important than blood levels of thyroid hormone is whether or not there are still signs and symptoms of hypothyroidism with treatment. There are a large number of people with normal thyroid hormone levels (normal free T3, free T4, TSH), yet who still have signs and symptoms of hypothyroidism. These people have thyroid hormone resistance and need extra thyroid hormone treatment.

When it comes to LH and FSH, the question is not whether or not the values are in range, but whether or not the appropriate amount of testosterone is being made in response to the LH level. This helps determine if one has a problem with the pituitary's production of LH (secondary hypogonadism) or if the problem lies in testicular production (primary hypogonadism) or if there is both primary and secondary hypogonadism.

Since there are multiple factors which can affect testosterone production both from the hypothalamus-pituitary and testicular ends - such as other hormone imbalances - the LH and FSH may not so much be useful except to determine if a pituitary tumor is present or if HCG can be used as TRT (as with secondary hypogonadism).

Total testosterone is the best test for clinical purposes. The tests for free testosterone are not uniformly accurate enough. Free testosterone can also be normal yet a person has all the signs and symptoms of hypogonadism.

A good target for total testosterone during TRT is at least 650 ng/dl, measured at the midway point between injections or at least four hours after applying transdermal testosterone, or any time if pellets are implanted.

Its better to measure estradiol than total estrogens to get an idea of the total estrogen activity. Estradiol level is in essence the total estrogen level but with greater weight placed on estradiol itself and less weight placed on the other estrogens (which are much weaker than estradiol).

During testosterone replacement, the total testosterone is determined by how much testosterone the testes make plus how much external testosterone is absorbed. There is a point where the external testosterone dose is high enough to shut down testicular testosterone production but not enough to make up the difference. In this case, the total testosterone actually is lower with TRT than without. The solution is to increase the external testosterone dose to a point where it is high enough to increase total testosterone rather than reduce it.

When it comes to Androgel, a dose of 5 grams of gel causes a substantial percentage of men to worsen in hypogonadism (i.e. lower total testosterone). Many men do respond well and have really good levels - e.g. 750 ng/dl and above. But to reduce the risk of worsening testosterone levels, starting at 10 grams then lowering the dose if total testosterone, DHT, estradiol levels go too high or of side effects occur, may be preferrable.

When a person has had hypothyroidism for a long time, absorption of transdermal testosterone may be difficult. This is because there is a build-up of mucin (a glue-like substance) in the skin of people with hypothyroidism, which causes the skin to become thick. This is called myxedema. It can be subtle, not obvious to most physicians, who are not use to pinching the skin of their patients to gauge the thickness of the skin. Myxedema impairs absorption of transdermal testosterone - impairing treatment with transdermal testosterone.

When myxedema is present, it is better to go to testosterone injections for TRT.
__________________
Any statement I make on this site is for educational purposes only and is subject to change. It does not constitute medical advice, does not substitute for proper medical evaluation from physician, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or liability. If you would like medical advice, you will have to make an appointment. Thank you.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Your LH is 4.6, thats not "in range." Thats your problem. Also your free test is low, you might want to get your SHBG checked.

I dont know how they measured the estorodiol, but 96 is up there also.

 

[pmgamer18]

Your LH is 4.6, thats not "in range." Thats your problem. Also your free test is low, you might want to get your SHBG checked.

I dont know how they measured the estorodiol, but 96 is up there also.

Sorry Chuck the post was on a different site and I put it here for Dr. Mariaco's answer. Fenstermaker is not a member here.
Phil

 

[thescience]

guess im late getting to this post. i have another friend with thyroid issues so im looking into all this again. good thread. anyway, i just read this article about how to suppress the thyroid to combat hyperthyroidism in 10 days using large doses of lithium:

Reversing hyperthyroidism

so hopefully people will at least explore other options before zapping the gland. also, theres a dr brownstein who talks about other nutrients that can reduce thyroid function. anyway, of course armour or naturthroid is way better than synthroid for some types of hypo; there are people for who synthroid works fine, but only because they dont have the issue with conversion that others have. armour gets around that, but as i recall with my friend who i talked into switching after his hair kept falling out years after starting synthroid, it took several weeks or months before the symptoms were reversed. also, his doc, who resisted the change and didnt understand armour, was really skimping him on the dosage. again, dr brownstein has info on his site or in his books about how hypothyroid was treated before bloodtests, and how deceptive blood tests caused a reduction in dosage protocalls after they came out; his argument rests on the idea that thyroxin builds up in cells which is not adequately measured by blood tests, and thus more can be ideal in some situations though only a few doctors he knows would help patients out with higher doses. finally, he said something about how taking thyroid hormone is way different from actually stimulating the thyroid with iodine ect; taking the hormone did not deliver the cardiac benefits and i think he said something about a cascading effect on other glands as a result of a stumulated thyroid that is producing its own thyroxin

 

[pmgamer18]

thescience,

Wow you said a mouth full yes Dr. Brownstein he is in my area in MI. I know the women that helps him wright his books. She was dying from Brest Cancer and he cured her with Iodine. She is a Natural Path and in a Coffee Club where the old mods hang out from STTM forum.

Dr. Jeffrey Dach is great at Thyroid and low Testosterone I get his News E-Mail here is a link to one of them.
http://jeffreydach.com/2011/04/06/iodine-is-safe-and-effective-by-jeffrey-dach-md.aspx

I can't take more then one 12 mg. pill of Iodoral I go into Bromide Detox and it makes me sick as a dog. Still I take one / day at bedtime it helps with thyroid and the meds I take for it.

I don't take Armour type meds any more and will never go back on them. All the forums are down on Synthroid saying it does not convert into T3.

But when the FDA a few yrs. ago pulled Armour off the market and let us to fend for our self's. We could not find Armour type meds the demand was to high and Labs could not keep up.

So we mod. from STTM went on Synthroid and added 5 mcgs of T3 4x's / day to this and dam if it works better then Armour for me.

Later a study came out saying this.
http://thyroid.about.com/b/2010/05/17/t3-superior-t4-levothyroxine-hypothyroidism-thyroid.htm?nl=1
Phil

 

[thescience]

thescience,

Wow you said a mouth full yes Dr. Brownstein he is in my area in MI. I know the women that helps him wright his books. She was dying from Brest Cancer and he cured her with Iodine. She is a Natural Path and in a Coffee Club where the old mods hang out from STTM forum.

Dr. Jeffrey Dach is great at Thyroid and low Testosterone I get his News E-Mail here is a link to one of them.
http://jeffreydach.com/2011/04/06/iodine-is-safe-and-effective-by-jeffrey-dach-md.aspx

I can't take more then one 12 mg. pill of Iodoral I go into Bromide Detox and it makes me sick as a dog. Still I take one / day at bedtime it helps with thyroid and the meds I take for it.

I don't take Armour type meds any more and will never go back on them. All the forums are down on Synthroid saying it does not convert into T3.

But when the FDA a few yrs. ago pulled Armour off the market and let us to fend for our self's. We could not find Armour type meds the demand was to high and Labs could not keep up.

So we mod. from STTM went on Synthroid and added 5 mcgs of T3 4x's / day to this and dam if it works better then Armour for me.

Later a study came out saying this.
http://thyroid.about.com/b/2010/05/17/t3-superior-t4-levothyroxine-hypothyroidism-thyroid.htm?nl=1
Phil

interesting. i remember reading something about armour; there was this one guy who said the fillers put into it actually work against its absorption or something. dont remember the details. i think in the event that the gland was zapped, you dont have to worry about causing hypo from large doses of potassium iodide (which is a rare occurance for anyone from what i read) but this company that makes this stuff called iosol supposedly gets around even that possibility. the argument they make is that potassium iodide stains the gland like it stains clothing, and thus causes a counter reaction in some people (yet over in asia, people will take in GRAMS of iodine a day from seaweed are fine). apparently, pure iodide is labeled with a skull and crossbones at any pharmacy, and potassium idodide is only considered less toxic by some people (even though most people are fine with the huge doses. anyway, iosol doesnt stain clothing (or the gland supposedly). i wonder if you could take 12mg doses of that without feeling sick.

 

[pmgamer18]

My Dr. and I talked about this but I am secondary due to a head injury and my Pituitary dose not tell my body to make enough hormoens so doing more Iodine is not going to be much help to me.

interesting. i remember reading something about armour; there was this one guy who said the fillers put into it actually work against its absorption or something. dont remember the details. i think in the event that the gland was zapped, you dont have to worry about causing hypo from large doses of potassium iodide (which is a rare occurance for anyone from what i read) but this company that makes this stuff called iosol supposedly gets around even that possibility. the argument they make is that potassium iodide stains the gland like it stains clothing, and thus causes a counter reaction in some people (yet over in asia, people will take in GRAMS of iodine a day from seaweed are fine). apparently, pure iodide is labeled with a skull and crossbones at any pharmacy, and potassium idodide is only considered less toxic by some people (even though most people are fine with the huge doses. anyway, iosol doesnt stain clothing (or the gland supposedly). i wonder if you could take 12mg doses of that without feeling sick.

 

[Whacked]

Cool thread. Sub'd to learn more

 

[thescience]

theres this stuff called detoxidine that sells cheap depending on where you get it. better absorbed, no sides at large doses. it can also go directly into the mouth and kept there for 30-90 seconds for subligual delivery. my friend will be comparing it to iosol at high doses and making a judgement as to which one delivers a more consistant rise in body heat. i also got some info from the company that makes iosol. they couldnt put it online due to fda laws that cant make research publically availble in any proximity to a product page. the stuff they sent had alot of info. one thing it had was an article by a doctor who claimed this stuff called Thytrophin PMG was equivalent to thyroid hormone due to its ability to counteract the antibodies that mess up people's thyroid production. not sure if his claim carries over to all types of hypothyroid; i knew a guy who had a genetic version that kicked in at age 33 for him and his sister; that guy could take all the iodine, tyrosine, copper, manganese, and selenium in the world and nothing would happen so i would say this doctors claim is limited to the hashimotos crowd

 

[Whacked]

Thescience - That substance is not considered an actual replacement for primary hypothyroidism over conventional therapists like T3 or T4 is it?

 

[thescience]

Thescience - That substance is not considered an actual replacement for primary hypothyroidism over conventional therapists like T3 or T4 is it?

the guy, dr david g williams said in 1999 in the packet tpcs sent me, that thyrotrophin "CAN OFTEN be used in place of prescription thyroid medications" and that "3 tabs of thytrophin and 1 drop of iosol was equivalent to 1 grain of hormone." the "can often" suggests in some cases it wont work, and i speculate that would be in the cases where the issue is genetic, like with my friend whose form is characterized by brutal symtoms and that started on at a genetically preset time (the same time his sister developed them.) the product page on thyrotrophin claims it is able to counteract the antibodies that destroy thyroid hormone, so i would speculate it would be successful for Hashimotos hypothyroid, which some say is the most prevalent type. so i think the answer to that question lies in the reason why one has hypothyroid. hell, there are people with hypothyroid who got that way from simply not having enough iodine. doctors will never really explore that today, instead opting to use t4 or t3 on people. but just taking t3 for example doesnt help the heart the way restoring thyroid function from iodine would (brownstein said there is value intrinsic to iodine and its ability to stimulate the glamd which affected other parts of the body. some of the literature this company sent me here had some suggestions on ways to test for yourself what type of hypo you may have. for example, they laid out large dose iodine protocalls; if you take it and heat up, you know its the type that responds to iodine. the bodyheat from say 1 dose of 20 drops (in the new diluted version sold) detoxidine is pretty intense for the few people ive known who have done that, and in cases where it isnt so obvious theres the Basal metabolic rate test involving a thermometer in the armpit BEFORE rising for 10 minutes (temp should be 98.2-97.2 ). that Williams suggests. Williams goes on to say that if the large dose of iosol doesnt cause a response, then add the thyrotrophin, but again his statement "can often" doesnt sound like a guarantee for the result

 

[thescience]

"Thytrophin PMG® Supports Healthy Thyroid FunctionThe thyroid gland is an endocrine gland consisting of a large number of follicles that contain thyroglobulin. Thyroglobulin is an iodine-containing protein from which thyroxine and triiodothyronine are derived. Thyroxine, a principle hormone secreted by the thyroid gland, enhances the capability of all food types for energy production and increases the rate of protein synthesis in most tissues. Parafollicular cells secrete the hormone calcitonin. Calcitonin is involved in calcium metabolism and works to decrease blood calcium levels. Calcitonin also inhibits bone resorption.How Thytrophin PMG Keeps You HealthyMaintains cellular healthProtomorphogenTM extract is the brand name of Standard Process’ extracts derived from nucleoprotein-mineral molecules. The foundation for the function of these uniquely formulated nucleoprotein-mineral extracts comes from the antigen- antibody reaction that takes place during normal cell maintenance. The antigenic properties promote healthy cellular division, function, and growth. When a tissue needs support, at least a dozen different compounds are formed that can cause white blood cells to travel together toward the compromised area. These compounds include degenerative products of the tissues themselves. They strongly activate the macrophage system, and within a few hours, the macrophages begin to devour the destroyed tissue byproducts. At times, the macrophages can also affect the structure of the remaining healthy cells. The bovine thyroid PMGTM extract in Thytrophin PMG appears to neutralize the circulating antibodies, thereby contributing to the maintenance of cellular health.†Improves calcium absorption and supports nervous system functionCalcium lactate is a highly soluble calcium salt and highly bioavailable. It changes to calcium bicarbonate (the type used by the body) in one chemical step. Unlike some other forms of calcium that are less soluble in water and need higher acid concentrations to be absorbed, calcium lactate exists near a more neutral pH and does not require acid conditions to work. Calcium is important for the healthy functioning of the nervous system and transmission of nerve impulses. The calcium lactate in Thytrophin PMG is derived from pure- vegetable sources of calcium, not dairy sources.†Sustains metabolic efficiencyWhile magnesium is present in most cells in only minute quantities, it plays an important role in human metabolism, as does its partner, calcium. It functions in such reactions as nerve conduction and nerve excitability, transfer of energy, muscular activity, and many other specific processes. Magnesium functions as a cofactor, assisting enzymes in catalyzing many chemical reactions. Magnesium and calcium are synergistic, meaning that what they do for the body together, they cannot perform on their own.†Please copy for your patients.GF This product contains less than 10 parts per million of gluten per serving size or less than 20 parts per million per the suggested use listed on each product label. †These statements have not been evaluated by the Food & Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.Introduced in 1952GFContent:90 tablets 360 tabletsSuggested Use: One tablet per meal, or as directed.Supplement Facts:Serving Size: 1 tablet Servings per Container: 90 or 360Amount per Serving %DVCalories 1Calcium 30 mg 2%Proprietary Blend: 109 mg Magnesium citrate and bovine thyroid PMGTM extract (processed to remove its thyroxine).Other Ingredients: Calcium lactate, cellulose, and calcium stearate.Each tablet supplies approximately: 45 mg bovine thyroid PMGTM extract (processed to remove its thyroxine).Sold through health care professionals.800-558-8740 | standardprocess.comThytrophin PMG® What Makes Thytrophin PMG UniqueProduct AttributesContains enzyme factors, minerals, amino acids, and proteins combined with bovine thyroid PMGTM extract›› To help support the role of the thyroid in basal metabolism, its dynamic relationships with other endocrine glands, and its vital role in the promotion of growth†Contains ProtomorphogenTM extracts›› Standard Process uses a unique manufacturing method of deriving tissue cell determinants from animal glands and organs›› Help provide cellular support and rehabilitation to the corresponding human tissues›› Important antigenic properties of nucleoprotein-mineral determinants are the foundation of the product†The calcium lactate in Thytrophin PMG is a pure-vegetable source of calcium›› Not derived from a dairy source Manufacturing and Quality-Control ProcessesLow-temperature, high-vacuum drying technique›› Preserves the enzymatic vitality and nutritional potential of ingredients Not disassociated into isolated components›› The nutrients in Thytrophin PMG are processed to remain intact, complete nutritional compoundsDegreed microbiologists and chemists in our on-site laboratories continually conduct bacterial and analytical tests on raw materials, product batches, and finished products›› Ensures consistent quality and safety Vitamin and mineral analyses validate product content and specifications›› Assures high-quality essential nutrients are delivered©2008 Standard Process Inc. ©2012 Standard Process Inc. (This is a subsequent edition of the work published in 2008.) All rights reserved. T8025 11/12"

 

[thescience]

i dont know if thytrophin is any different from regular bovine thyroid glandular. the ad i posted above seems to indicate they may have extracted it for certain compounds but i dont know.

 

[Whacked]

Killer info. Thanks man

 

[thescience]

sure. something else out there called tireogen that was extracted from bovine thyroid glandulars by Professor Vladimir Khavinson, President of the European Academy of Gerontology and Geriatrics. he was commissioned by Russian military on drugs for some kind of super soldier project and ended up discovering this. he won the nobel prize for his work with peptides, which he got from the non-hormonal component of glandulars. this stuff is really expensive, but it works by triggering the genes to produce hormones. i dont know how much raw glandular it takes to equal a cap of his stuff. theres a swanson brand of glandular that sells cheap that some reviewers seemed to like. theres alot going on inside glandulars that isnt really being talked about, so im thinking about calling standard process and finding out whether their product is extracted from a glandular for very specific thyroid hormone-destroying antibody-blocking components or whether is just raw glandular

 

[thescience]

"TIREOGEN: The thyroid peptide exerts a selective effect on the various thyroid cells regulating their function as well as a beneficial effect in the regeneration of the thyroid"

"but in the 1980’s he was a Colonel in the Soviet Union military medical corps. At the time, he and his team were approached by Kremlin officials, they wanted them to find a way to protect their troops from a myriad of problems; issues such as radiation for submariners in nuclear submarines to troops that may be blinded from known, (but thankfully unused) new weapons such as battlefield lasers.

What their secret research uncovered - that was used for two decades on many thousands of men and women - was a remarkable link between short chain peptides and DNA.

Now their published research is in the open and it identifies that each organ/gland/tissue uses a highly specific short chain peptide to act as a ‘short cut’ to initiate protein synthesis. These peptides can be found in food and unlike proteins they can enter the blood through the stomach. Through a comprehensive list of patents and even copyrighted PowerPoint slides, the Russian research group are showing that each of the concentrated peptide bioregulators so far examined interact with particular strands of DNA - effectively and very specifically activating repair and regenerative processes.

This is a remarkable story since what we are describing here are individualized gene switches and since they have been tested for many years on thousands of individuals, without report of any serious side effects or contraindications to date, they could be set to ‘out do’ stem cells. Why? Because this peptide therapy is relatively cheap, highly specific, can be taken orally and doesn’t require any suppression of the immune system to operate fully.

Professor Khavinson and his award winning team at the St Petersburg Institute of Biogerontology have discovered that each organ/gland has a biological reserve and despite the origin of the tissue they have studied, incredibly each one is always set at 42%.

Even dosing doesn’t need to be daily, these peptide bioregulators have been shown to act even after a simple course of 2 capsules daily for 10-days. Healthy individuals only being encouraged to repeat the course 6-months later, although of course depending on the need this course can be repeated every 3-months, 2-months or 1-month if necessary. But compared to a hormone replacement therapy this is interesting, since hormones would require almost daily application. But these peptide bioregulators aren’t hormones, they are acting on the gland concerned to ‘encourage’ it to become active and effectively ‘younger’ by triggering/activating the DNA responsible.

We highly recommend reading Prof. Khavinson's article on the importance of using these incredible new medical substances to regulate aging and increase the human lifespan.

Note: Of the 20 or so peptide bioregulators available WAAS has chosen the following, (and will be adding more into the range in due course). All the sources of these Peptide Bioregulators are from carefully chosen Danish bovine tissues and processed through pharmaceutical processes and filters. Currently all of these peptide regulator capsules enjoy registration on the Russian market as food supplements.

 

[boomer411]

This is a great example of the truth that so many people have failed to remember in the modern world. That truth is that doctors do not have all of the answers. They go to school for more years than most of us are willing to commit to, and I would never try to take the time, energy, and commitment doctors have made in order to become doctors. However, be that as it may, I never forget the fact that they are also humans, and part of their job involves the doctors own opinion and personal beliefs. We must all learn to pay attention to our bodies, do our own research, and push for what we feel is best for us and our health.