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Starting Dose of Armour.

pmgamer18

Well-known member
I asked Dr. Marianco at a Men's Health Forum I am a member at this Dr. is great he takes time out of his busy life to answer Questions for free. He is at this site doing research on low Hormones and Depression he believes most problems with Depression are caused by Adrenal Fatigue, Thyroid and low Hormones like us men with low Testosterone.
Here is a cut & paste on his reply to me.
Phil

marianco thanks again I picked up my Armour yesterday and my Dr. gave me 15mgs. to take once a day. I told him I had been taking some my wife had left over that was 1 grain 60 mgs. he told me this is to strong to start with. I know this maybe putting you on the spot but what dose do you start with. I can't see doing this low a dose for 7 weeks then test to see if I need more. I just feel to dam good to lower it.

Dr. Marisnco's reply sounds like most of what is said here and at Stop The Thyroid Madness.

The dose range for Armour thyroid varies between 15 mg to 300 mg a day - generally in two divided doses since T3 may last only 8 hours.

If a person has heart problems, then the usual top dose is 120 mg a day. There is a risk of atrial fibrillation from high T3 levels when a person has heart problems such as having had a heart attack. It is possible to go higher but one needs a lot of thinking and deliberation about the risks involved and whether or not it is worth it. T3 does have some anti-arrhythmic property - reducing the risk for ventricular tacchycardia - a frequently fatal irregular heart beat.

One can gauge the dosing by how much faster the heart beats compared to baseline. If the resting heart beats more than 10 beats more per minute compared to baseline, than the increase in dose may be too high and too fast. If the resting heartbeat goes past 100 beats per minute, then the dose may be too high. If there is significant anxiety or if the heart rate is fast because blood pressure is low, etc., then using the pulse as a gauge in treatment may be more difficult and other signs and symptoms may be then used to measure response to treatment.

Ramping up too fast can exacerbate adrenal fatigue - which risks worsening the person's overall condition. Then it is important to pull back on the dose, allowing time for the body to get use to a dosage level (say about 2-4 weeks), before trying again to increase the dose.

Most people tolerate starting at 30 mg of Armour Thyroid a day (about 1/2 a grain). If in good health otherwise, many tolerate starting at 60 mg a day. If the person is fragile in health or has significant adrenal fatigue, then I may start at 15 mg a day. Then I may ramp up in dose by 15 mg or 30 mg every 2 weeks as tolerated (i.e. so long as significant symptoms of hyperthyroidism do not show up), to an initial plateau of 60 mg before getting lab tests, then if needed, gradually increasing the dose every 2 weeks to 120 mg a day. If signs of excessive dose shows up, I have the patient reduce the dose. If the person is fragile in health, a slower ramp up may be needed. If reasonably safe and needed, ramping up to higher doses is done at a more gradual pace - e.g. changes occurring once a month.

I try to be flexible about it, giving the patient some leeway to decide what is a tolerable and effective dose for him or herself, while keeping in mind the boundaries of safety. I usually give instructions and a flexible dose to allow this.

Patients can monitor their blood pressure and pulse to help determine the dosing of thyroid hormone. Blood pressure may be reduced if hypothyroidism has contributed to hyperthyroidism. Blood pressure may be low if adrenal fatigue is worsened. The pulse helps determine if a hyperthyroid state is present.

It is more important to pay attention to the signs and symptoms of hypothyroidism (and of hyperthyroidism if the dose is too high)during the dose adjustments than the lab tests. This is particularly true when a person has hypothyroid signs and symptoms and has normal baseline thyroid levels (e.g. mitochondrial disease).

The signs and symptoms of hypothyroidism - such as dry skin, lack of energy, cold intolerance, etc. - should go away as an appropriate dose is reached.

Interactions with other neurotransmitters and hormones need to be attended to. For example, thyroid hormone increases serotonin production. If the patient is on an SSRI, then signs of excessive serotonin levels (such as restlessness or agitation) may occur. The SSRI may need to be then reduced. If the patient loses weight, then thyroid levels may be reduced. The dose of Armour Thyroid may then need to be increased. Should adrenal fatigue show up, then it should be treated simultaneously with thyroid hormone treatment.
__________________
Any statement I make on this site is for educational purposes only and is subject to change. It does not constitute medical advice, does not substitute for proper medical evaluation from physician, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or liability. If you would like medical advice, you will have to make an appointment. Thank you.

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Last edited by marianco : Today at 03:33 AM.
 
I really found this to be very informative. My TRT physician (who is a master at his craft) also started me out on 15mg of Armour per day. As soon as I started, I felt better. Then after a while, I asked about upping the dosage to 30mg (15mg twice per day). This was also well tolerated and I feel better than I did on the 15mg per day.

I still have some symptoms of being hypthyroid and have been thinking of trying to up the dose again, but have not inquired with my physician about it yet. I know that more is not always better. I didn't want to find myself on a rollercoaster of doing too much, then having to back off. This information, however, would suggest that one could gradually go to 60mg per day without being over concerned. Then one could draw labs and gradually go from there. Just the thought of that has me smiling. :)
 
smitty4 said:
I really found this to be very informative. My TRT physician (who is a master at his craft) also started me out on 15mg of Armour per day. As soon as I started, I felt better. Then after a while, I asked about upping the dosage to 30mg (15mg twice per day). This was also well tolerated and I feel better than I did on the 15mg per day.

I still have some symptoms of being hypthyroid and have been thinking of trying to up the dose again, but have not inquired with my physician about it yet. I know that more is not always better. I didn't want to find myself on a rollercoaster of doing too much, then having to back off. This information, however, would suggest that one could gradually go to 60mg per day without being over concerned. Then one could draw labs and gradually go from there. Just the thought of that has me smiling. :)
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If upping the dose makes you feel Hyper then it can be that your Cortisol levels are low or you have Adrenal Fatigue and you need to treat this before you can go higher. What happens is the med stays in the blood and builds up not getting into the cells you need cortisol to take the med to the cells. Here read this link.
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Phil
 
DOH! I have been away from the things for a bit and just noticed that my post said that, "I still have some symptoms of being hypthyroid." Somehow I managed to omit the "o". What I was trying to say was that I still have symptoms of being hypOthryoid, but I know that more is not always better.

Sorry for any confusion. My typing skills leave a little to be desired. In fact backspace is my favorite key.
 
There is site on the web (Invalid Link Removed) that indicates that one should take their temperature 3 times a day. For example, one would take their temp around 9AM, 12 Noon, and 3 PM. He contends that wide variability in daily temperatures indicates a weak adrenal function and that in a hypothyroid state, the day-to-day averages are low and very stable. If ones temps were low and variable, that would be an indication of both weakened adrenal function and hypothyroid. Any thoughts on using daily temps in addition to resting pulse rates to monitor things?
 
I have been doing this for the last 4 months when I first started my temps before getting out of bed were 96.2 and my avg. temp was all over the chart one day the avg. was 97 next it was 98 then 97.4 and so on. I started on Isocort and when I was on it 5 weeks working my way up to 8 pill = about 20mgs of cortisol my Temp leveled off at 98.6. Yet my morning temp was still 96.2. Now doing Armour up to 75mgs my morning temp has come up to 97.2. When I started on armour it was 45mgs and after 2 weeks my temp started going back down so I upped the dose to 60 mgs and my morning Temp went back up to 97.2 and stayed there for 3 weeks then started going back down. Now just 3 days ago I upped my Dose and this is with my Dr. to 75mgs. and now my morning Temp before getting out of bed is 97.4 so I feel taking ones Temp helps to see how your doing with how you feel.
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Phil
 
I had read that webpage and found it interesing. That was why I was asking for other people's input regarding this approach.

Since I thought it was interesting, I starting taking my temp 3 times per day as it suggests. My average temps for past few days have been

97.1
97.5
97.8
97.7
97.1

The three temps each day seem to fluxuate quite a bit, but the averages don't seem as disparate. Of the 15 temps I have taken, none of them were above 98.2 and that only happened a couple times. Granted this is only a few data points, but according to Dr. Rind's site, this would indicate that I am hypothyroid and have mild adrenal fatigue.

Phil, have you combined Dr. Marianco's resting heart rate method with your temperatures in trying to determine your Armour dosage?
 
I have had a high resting heart rate for the last 12 months not getting any exercise at all. About 4 weeks ago I was out working in the yard for the first time this yr. I was edging around a Pine tree and walked into a Black Wasps nest I am 62 over weight and had to run like hell and still got stung about 50 times. The running hurt my back and I am just now starting to get some exercise. So my hear rate is about 80 bpm. sitting when I am up and around it is 90. Yet my rate has not gone up on Armour.
Phil
 
I had forgotten about the wasps, but I am sure that you haven't! Dang Phil, when it comes to luck you sure to be snake bit! Remind me to never get on an airplane with you! ;)

I am not trying to speak for him, but I think when it comes to increasing Armour dosage, Dr. Marianco is concerned about how much your heart rate increases. I am sure that Dr. Marianco also is concerned that ones resting heart rate is not too high too though.

Anyway, it sounds like you have kept an eye on your resting heart rate in addition to your temps.
 
Yes I have read everything I could find about thyroid trying to help my wife and what do I find out that my Thyroid is bad. And my adrenals are slow. So the Temp guide and heart rate and feeling hyper are all things to look out for when upping the dose. I don't like getting on a plane with myself yet I do.
I am hoping to get back in the shape I was this time last yr. I was down some 65lbs and walking 45 min.'s on the days I did not work out at the gym. I was going to the gym working out 3 days a week on 21 machines. Got dam sick last winter with bronchitis most of the winter. I now know it's because of my low cortisol and Thyroid levels and have only been treating this for the last 8 weeks. So I am hoping this winter will be better. In the past ever winter I would get bronchitis and be sick with it most of the winter.
Phil
 
As I say, I found Dr. Rinds's site to be interesting. I found it because I currently take Armour, but still have symptoms of behing Hypothyroid. I have to admit that I was a little surprised to find that I fit quite a few of the symptoms of Adrenal fatigue. As I went down the list, I was telling myself that it was all in my head and that I don't really have those symptoms. Then when I got to the bottom where it list things related to labs, I pulled out my last round of labs and surprised how well they seemed to fit:

Serum Potassium tends toward high normal (typically 4.0 or higher) Mine is 5.0 (3.5-5.5)
Serum Sodium tends toward low normal (typically 140 or lower) Mine is 140 (135-148)
DHEAS low to low normal My DHEA was low prior to supplementation
Testosterone low-normal to low My Test was low prior to TRT
WBC tends to be low normal Mine is 4.9 (4.0-10.5)
MCV often 93 or higher Mine is 94 (80-98)
RDW normal to high normal Mine is 13.8 (11.7-15.0)
Blood type (Most are type A) Mine is A

Anyway, I thought it was interesting and I plan to try to learn a little more about adrenal fatigue while I pursue increasing my Armour dosage.
 
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Yep mine were like yours and my RDW high 16.9 my morning cortisol was 8.71. When I started on Isocort I was told at a web site to take it after eating. I am not reading "Safe Uses of Cortisol by Jefferies and in this book it says to take it before eating. This morning I took my armour and Isocort at 6am I am very fatigued in the morning. Well this morning was taking the meds early I don't eat until 9am. Wow I have not felt this good first thing in the morning in yrs. I took the meds with milk and will keep doing this.

What are you going to do I understand that one that has Adrenal Fatigue must treat it first before treating or taking Armour. At least take Isocort or HC first I was on it for 30 days before starting Armour. What they say happens is you up your Dose of Armour and start to feel hyper. They say this is because the armour stays in the blood and does on get into the cells. That one needs cortisol to carry the thyroid med to the cells.
Here is a good link on this
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And this one tells how to take Isocort or HC.
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Phil
 
Dr. John said:
I don't think you should ake the adrenal in the morning. That is when yo get your own natural spurt, and IMPO we should avoid messing with that IF YOU CAN.

Take your Armour with water. The calcium in the milk can bind it up. And give the Armour a litle bite on the way down to speed delivery.

I'd also recommend you get some nutrition in sooner after you arise. How long has it been since taking in any protein otherwise? And some good carbs are great for getting the furnace stoked up.

But mighty happy to hear you are feeling better.

As far as the variance in recommendations: this is pretty new stuff. Different practitioners have different ways of doing things.
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Hi Dr. John thanks for the heads up on milk and Armour. I am taking Isocort 4 pills = 10mgs of cortisol and 2 pills at noon = 5 mgs and 2 pills at dinner. Total = 20 mgs so they say. I am reading Jefferies book "Safe Uses of Cortisol" I am only 25% in to it but it states if your cortisol leverls are low in the morning mine are 8.7 range 7.0 - 25 ug/dl and my fasting Glucose is low 65 range 65 - 140 ng/dl. To take Cortisol first thing in the morning just before eating. This is the second day doing it this way and I feel much better. Not so fatigued I am betting my pituitary is not sending the messages to make more Cortisol my morning Cortisol has been this low on a test for yrs. But Dr.'s looked at it and said your in the normal range. I will be coming off the Isocort to test my ACTH just waiting for my Dr. to say when.

I should eat sooner but I get up and go straight into my Spa so I can move with out pain first thing in the morning.

But this is more important so starting tomorrow I am going to take my Armour then eat and then take my Isocort.

I can go in the spa later my joint and muscle pain is a lot better lately.
Phil
 
Dr. John said:
Smitty--

OOPS! I meant to QUOTE but instead clicked on EDIT. That is why my name is at the bottom of your post. Anyway, here is what I originally stuck right into your post:

Smitty--

None of your labs "qualify" by these criteria. I consider the criteria suspect anyway.

You have a good, healthy potassium level because you are a good, healthy guy with a good, healthy diet. THAT came out in a rather clever manner, eh?

Your DHEA was low because it almost always is with hypogonadism and TRT.

I'm not sure what the concection between hypogonadism and adrenal fatigue is supposed to be, other thn the fact both disease preocesses affect ur overall health.
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That is what I was wondering. I found it interesting that my numbers seem to fall in line with what they presented, but I wasn't sure if it is a valid approach to determine whether or not one had adrenal fatigue.

It is easy for one to get confused about what is the correct approach to things. My last 24 hour urine labs indicated that my cortisol levels were not out of range, but a lot of the sites I have been reading have been expressing that 4 saliva cortisols spread throughout the day is a better approach.

I started looking up information about potentially upping my Armour dosage and the next thing you know I was reading sites that seem to indicate that I have adrenal fatigue as well as hypothyrodism. I am not sure, but I imagine a lot of folks would have labs that are similar to mine.
 
Dr. Jon,
i am very familar with the adrenal/thyroid connection but there is a twist. I have elevated reverse t-3 with low normal ft3 and ft4. Which is causing cellular resistance. I have been supporting low cortisol with isocort and HC (15 mgs total) combined and it just seems to be lower body temperature even steadily lower (rind chart). From my understanding this is telling me my adrenals are good and its time to upp the thyroid. I hesitant to take rasise armour from 1/4 grain for long time for I read the under no circumstanced that people with elevated t-3 should not take armour. Is this true or could taking armour with adrenal support be enough to overide the reverse t-3 to resume the cellular function or would time released t-3 which I can get from dr be a better choice. My dr is even confused on this. My ratio for rt3/t3 is 15/1

Basically should one be more concerned about the ft3 ft4 levels and forget about rt-3 or do rt3 needs to be addressed
 
hardasnails1973 said:
Dr. Jon,
i am very familar with the adrenal/thyroid connection but there is a twist. I have elevated reverse t-3 with low normal ft3 and ft4. Which is causing cellular resistance. I have been supporting low cortisol with isocort and HC (15 mgs total) combined and it just seems to be lower body temperature even steadily lower (rind chart). From my understanding this is telling me my adrenals are good and its time to upp the thyroid. I hesitant to take rasise armour from 1/4 grain for long time for I read the under no circumstanced that people with elevated t-3 should not take armour. Is this true or could taking armour with adrenal support be enough to overide the reverse t-3 to resume the cellular function or would time released t-3 which I can get from dr be a better choice. My dr is even confused on this. My ratio for rt3/t3 is 15/1

Basically should one be more concerned about the ft3 ft4 levels and forget about rt-3 or do rt3 needs to be addressed
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This is a good link to read by the way I do Isocort 8 pill = 20 mgs of cortisol maybe your not doing enough I am reading Safe Uses of Cortisol by Jefferies and he says you safe up to 40 mgs a day but recommends only 20 mgs a day.
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Phil
 
I will up the dosage and I am famiar with dr jefferies as well. I think I do need to up it because working out can burn cortisol off that you already do not have. MY quesstioin is more Should I be concerned with the armour raising the elevated rt3 causing more interference or will the armour with cortisol be enough to compensate for cellular resistance. i am also extremely familar with wilson syndrome which I do have but many MD beleive it is hog wash and feel that increasing the ft-4 and ft3 will over come the thyroid resistance. Testosterone is low being addressed with testocreme with hcg. I am mixing isocort and HC, would 10.5.5 as you suggest may be the way to go since cortisol is low all the time via ASI salvia test. What time you take last dosage? My thyroid is so ****ed it starting to affect cellular enzymes and homocysteine levels which are below the range which is not good.

So can one say that wilson syndrome is the same thing as having thyroid anitbodies except it blocks t-3 instead.
 
hardasnails1973 said:
I will up the dosage and I am famiar with dr jefferies as well. I think I do need to up it because working out can burn cortisol off that you already do not have. MY quesstioin is more Should I be concerned with the armour raising the elevated rt3 causing more interference or will the armour with cortisol be enough to compensate for cellular resistance. i am also extremely familar with wilson syndrome which I do have but many MD beleive it is hog wash and feel that increasing the ft-4 and ft3 will over come the thyroid resistance. Testosterone is low being addressed with testocreme with hcg. I am mixing isocort and HC, would 10.5.5 as you suggest may be the way to go since cortisol is low all the time via ASI salvia test. What time you take last dosage? My thyroid is so ****ed it starting to affect cellular enzymes and homocysteine levels which are below the range which is not good.

So can one say that wilson syndrome is the same thing as having thyroid anitbodies except it blocks t-3 instead.
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You should like you may know more then me I just started on Isocort 3 months ago then 4 weeks ago on Armour I am only up to 75 mgs a day. I take my last dose of Isocort at dinner about 6:30 pm. If I can get some HC I will stop using Isocort.
Do you know if your have a pituitary problem.
In the link I gave you the Dr. feels rT-3 is not a good mesure.
A cut & paste
T3 Resin Uptake (T3RU). They can be thrown off by toxic chemicals and drugs (lead poisoning, birth control pills, hormone replacement therapy, seizure medication, blood pressure and cholesterol drugs (Propranolol, Gemfibrozil), and high dose aspirin (used for arthritis)); deficiencies of vitamins and minerals (Vitamin E, Selenium, others...), and chronic disease (liver and kidney disease, Parkinson’s Dementia).4 The only reason to continue to draw those tests is to bill you or your insurance company. They don’t change prognosis or medical management one iota.”
I think if your on enough cortisol you can up Armour with out feeling hyper. Cortisol cares the thyroid med into the cells if your low it will build up in the blood and make you feel hyper.
Phil
 
T3 Resin Uptake (T3RU). They can be thrown off by toxic chemicals and drugs (lead poisoning, birth control pills, hormone replacement therapy, seizure medication, blood pressure and cholesterol drugs (Propranolol, Gemfibrozil), and high dose aspirin (used for arthritis)); deficiencies of vitamins and minerals (Vitamin E, Selenium, others...), and chronic disease (liver and kidney disease, Parkinson’s Dementia).4 The only reason to continue to draw those tests is to bill you or your insurance company. They don’t change prognosis or medical management one iota.”
I think if your on enough cortisol you can up Armour with out feeling hyper. Cortisol cares the thyroid med into the cells if your low it will build up in the blood and make you feel hyper.
Phil[/QUOTE]
T3ru I know is worthless just like tsh and serum t-3. Reverse t-3 is a touchy situation where your body is locked into starvation mode and will not disengage. Reason mine is still locked up is because oxidative stress (lipid perixodation) from prolong dieting/ketosus manly from rancid fats (cooking poly unsat fats in microwave), glucose imbalances interfering in thyroid conversion. Since It was never addressed properly by medical drs and when alteration in t3/t4 ratio and then over time it weaken my adrenals. I know cortisol allows thyroid into the cell and like you said I may need more and by having weaken thyroid stresses the adrenals even more. In my situation armour may not be right and i just need t-3 to drive the rt3 down and disengage the enzyme slowing things up, but no one has been able to give me that answer. No dr has a clue to what I am even talking about. I do have vitamin E , zinc and Coenzyme q10 deficiency With out vitamin E selenium does not metabolize and creates a functional selenium deficiency despite having adequete selenium. The adrenal issues is being addressed along with nutritional supplementation now thyroid needs to be addressed with either armour or time released t-3. This is the answer i have been seeking for over 2.5 years. i know what it was from the start, but MD would not do anthing other then offer me anstidepressants which i refused. When my normal serum t-4 went from 9 (4-12) down to 5 in 4 months they did nothing said I was fine.. I know where the problems lie and how to correct it but i just need to know will armour work or make it worse. when I take armour my body feels normal like clock work 2 hours after I take it then I crash like the t-3 peaks at 2-2.5 hours. I have researched these topics for over 2.5 years and if i can help you to understand I will. I looked at your lab results and what is sticking out at me is Zinc deficeincy because of altered metabolism due to hypothyroidism. Hmm amazing zinc deficiency mimic all aspects of low thyroid. Here is the kicker in for thyroid to work you need zinc and in order to absorb zinc you optimal thyroid. You alkaline phospotase is zinc driven enzyme, same with testosterone, and t-4, t4 to t-3 conversion. I do not know what your diet is like but alot of hidden polyunsaturted fats in food alters thyroid function and conversion. Alot of our problems are brought on by lifestyle and manmade poisons. In my spare time I study orthomolecular medicine and how body can heal if given the right building blocks.
 
I take Zinc/Copper 50mgs a day been on it for yrs. So in my case it's pituitary I think you can get some help at this site post to Chris he is up on this big time.
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Phil
 
pmgamer18 said:
I take Zinc/Copper 50mgs a day been on it for yrs. So in my case it's pituitary I think you can get some help at this site post to Chris he is up on this big time.
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Phil
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Yes
i have been there and done that already I stumped even chris. My pituitary is fine had MRI's done and no tumors, if rt3 were not an issue then the answer would be straight forward. I just continue to see my rt3 rise depsite being on armout even at low dosages, t-3 do not move. Taking 50 mgs zinc depends on what kind. Reason why hypothyroid are low on zinc is because thyroid is need to drive it across the intestal mucosa. Once you get your thyroid adjusted properly zinc serum also rises 2 months after thyroid normalizes and testosterone probably will also normalize I have gotten better results on zinc lozengers to go around the digestion problem. My copper serum are low indicating copper is being deficenct or being biounavailale because of weaken adrenals. i am sure dr john should have so good insight and is familar with reverse t-3 even though it is extremely rare. My friend who crashed during dieting through his hormones in to chaos has elevated rt3 and was treated with time released t3 and cortisol. I just wanted to get another medical opionon is all

"Low T3 syndrome, with low T3 and high reverse T3, is almost always missed on standard thyroid function tests, as the T3 level is often in the low normal range and reverse T3 is the high normal range, again making the T3/rT3 ratio the most useful marker for tissue hypothyroidism and as a marker of diminished cellular functioning. The authors state, “Subjects with low T3 and high reverse T3 had the lowest PPS [PPS is a scoring system that takes into account normal activities of daily living and is a measure of physical and mental functioning]…Furthermore, subjects with high reverse T3 concentrations had worse physical performance scores and lower grip strength. These high rT3 levels were accompanied by high FT4 levels (within the normal range)…These changes in thyroid hormone concentrations may be explained by a decrease in peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism… Increasing rT3 levels could then represent a catabolic state, eventually proceeding an overt low T3 syndrome"





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hardasnails1973 said:
Yes
i have been there and done that already I stumped even chris. My pituitary is fine had MRI's done and no tumors, if rt3 were not an issue then the answer would be straight forward. I just continue to see my rt3 rise depsite being on armout even at low dosages, t-3 do not move. Taking 50 mgs zinc depends on what kind. Reason why hypothyroid are low on zinc is because thyroid is need to drive it across the intestal mucosa. Once you get your thyroid adjusted properly zinc serum also rises 2 months after thyroid normalizes and testosterone probably will also normalize I have gotten better results on zinc lozengers to go around the digestion problem. My copper serum are low indicating copper is being deficenct or being biounavailale because of weaken adrenals. i am sure dr john should have so good insight and is familar with reverse t-3 even though it is extremely rare. My friend who crashed during dieting through his hormones in to chaos has elevated rt3 and was treated with time released t3 and cortisol. I just wanted to get another medical opionon is all
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I pray you find the answer but if you upped the dose of armour say when you up the cortisol what can go wrong if you try doing this and don't feel right just stop and go back on the Armour. My wife will break out in a rash when she upps her Armour and she will not take any the next day and then go back on her normal dose and be fine. She needs to try every 4 weeks to up her dose of Armour because she has Adrenal Fatigue. This last time she did this it worked fine and she feels better. So what can happen.
Phil
 
You are right i am at 20 mgs cortisol now. So why would it not hurt. I will up the armour 1/4 grain each weeka and see what happens since cortisol is supported. i did goto some Natural person using applied kinseiology on me and told me that I have weak adrenals and that my problem is coming from kidneys once I dumped the cortisol down I fell apart and joints are killing me as well as major insomnia and constipation, anxiety and if worse comes to worse I can switch to the time released t-3 and just dump the armour. I see it as a win win situation. I did read one post that armour by increasing t-3 high enough over comes this resistance same as thyroid antibodies. Funny you mentioned about rash. I been having them re appear under my arm pits and they have not for a while. I just want my appetite back and be able to crap which is not fiber related but rather thyroid and also low serotonin which associates low thyroid

Looking back i dropped the cortisol and went according to natural regimen and felt like crap after wards. Thats eveidence enough its adrenals as well as temperatures

1/4 tab armour 6 am
9 am 97.2
12 pm 97.4
6 mcgs t-3 - 1230
3 pm 98.9
 
hardasnails1973 said:
You are right i am at 20 mgs cortisol now. So why would it not hurt. I will up the armour 1/4 grain each weeka and see what happens since cortisol is supported. i did goto some Natural person using applied kinseiology on me and told me that I have weak adrenals and that my problem is coming from kidneys once I dumped the cortisol down I fell apart and joints are killing me as well as major insomnia and constipation, anxiety and if worse comes to worse I can switch to the time released t-3 and just dump the armour. I see it as a win win situation. I did read one post that armour by increasing t-3 high enough over comes this resistance same as thyroid antibodies. Funny you mentioned about rash. I been having them re appear under my arm pits and they have not for a while. I just want my appetite back and be able to crap which is not fiber related but rather thyroid and also low serotonin which associates low thyroid

Looking back i dropped the cortisol and went according to natural regimen and felt like crap after wards. Thats eveidence enough its adrenals as well as temperatures

1/4 tab armour 6 am
9 am 97.2
12 pm 97.4
6 mcgs t-3 - 1230
3 pm 98.9
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Do not go up so fast bear in mind if your adrenals are low and you up the dose to fast your going to stress your Adrenals. I would not up it any sooner then 2 weeks at a time. I have found my morning temp will go up when I up my dose but only for a few days. Now I am talking about my temp before getting out of bed it was 96.4 before Isocort and Aromur now it is 97.2. During the day now it is at 98.4 to 98.6 on avg.
Was all over the place so I feel what I am doing is woking.
Yet my Dr. tells me you can't go by your temp.
Phil
 
average increase is 1/2 grain every 2 weeks. i will do it 1/4 grain a week with 20 mgs cortisol should be plenty to counteract it and support adrenals

Test results last blood work
test results
ft-3 - 2.4 (2.3-4.2)
tsh = 1.58 (.3-5)
ft4 - 1.05 (.75- 2.2)
rt3 = 350 (0-320)
dhea = 180
pregnolone 30 (0-200)
WBC 3.1 (3.9-?)

see how screwd i am, but drs said i was fine YEAH RIGHT
 
hardasnails1973 said:
average increase is 1/2 grain every 2 weeks. i will do it 1/4 grain a week with 20 mgs cortisol should be plenty to counteract it and support adrenals

Test results last blood work
test results
ft-3 - 2.4 (2.3-4.2)
tsh = 1.58 (.3-5)
ft4 - 1.05 (.75- 2.2)
rt3 = 350 (0-320)
dhea = 180
pregnolone 30 (0-200)

see how screwd i am, but drs said i was fine YEAH RIGHT
Click to expand...
Dam everyone I meet with low adrenels have low DHEA I got mine up to 400 on 2 25mgs pill a day one in the morning and at noon. You need to get this up.
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How are your testosterone levels.
Phil
 
Testosterone last check was 210.
One testocreme 1 grams @ 10 % componuded hcg 250 mcgs every 3 days as dr john indicated no testosterone retest. out of insurance. I rub it on inner forarms where skin is thinest. Should it be applied 2 times a day instead to keep things more steady then once a day.
Dhea subligual 12 mcgs once a day.

i have low triglycerides, ldl, cholesterol, normal HDL, low homocysteine, OAT all krebs cycle metabolites are low indicated reduced metabolism (similar to starvatin)
 
hardasnails1973 said:
Testosterone last check was 210.
One testocreme 1 grams @ 10 % componuded hcg 250 mcgs every 3 days as dr john indicated no testosterone retest. out of insurance. I rub it on inner forarms where skin is thinest. Should it be applied 2 times a day instead to keep things more steady then once a day.
Dhea subligual 12 mcgs once a day.

i have low triglycerides, ldl, cholesterol, normal HDL, low homocysteine, OAT all krebs cycle metabolites are low indicated reduced metabolism (similar to starvatin)
Click to expand...
Just put the cream on in the morning to keep your T levels up how long have you been on this. I tried doing the cream when I was on it 2x's a day and it kept me up at night. Your normal levels are highest in the morning anyway. I do HCG but the mesure is in IU's.
Phil
 
funny you mentioned that. i get lazy in the morning and put it on at night time and i wake up at 4 am every night depsite melatonin, trytophan extra. Could this be since testosterone lowers cortisol that i could be using up my reserves. i meant 250 ius 2 times a week. I need to get estrogen levels check if nothing else. When should Hcg be taken any time since it peaks. I feel alot better about 1 day after hcg shot may be it boost cortisol levels and is benefical for low levels of cortisol
 
hardasnails1973 said:
funny you mentioned that. i get lazy in the morning and put it on at night time and i wake up at 4 am every night depsite melatonin, trytophan extra. i meant 250 ius 2 times a week. I need to get estrogen levels check if nothing else. When should Hcg be taken any time since it peaks. I feel alot better about 1 day after hcg shot may be it boost cortisol levels and is benefical for low levels of cortisol
Click to expand...
I do my shot first thing in the morning IM in my thigh I feel it in less then an hour. Doing it subQ I don't feel it at all. I get this feeling of well being and I get the same feeling doing Isocort so I know it's driving up my cortisol levels. I use a 27g 1ml x 1/2" needle and I do my T shots every 3 days 40 mgs this helps keep my E2 lower. I use the same size needle.
Phil
 
Interesting, so you feel something more IM then SUB Q with hcg. How do you fit testosterone in a 27 gauge. It must take you for ever to shoot. I know 25 gauge 5/8 took me 3 minutes with 1 cc of sustenon LOL. How often you do hcg every 3 days like m,th is good or would be doing it lower dosage every 3 be best since it raises cortisol levels which I am in desperate need off.

You were right i think why i crashed I tried thay natural supplementation for cortisol with little more thyroid not knowing plus increasing testosterone to 1 gram day. Basically i crahed my adrenals by reducing cortisol and increasing testosterone. Should i take arimedx at
.25 mgs once every 3 days as saftey measure for test and dhea converting to estrogen.
 
I have been researching this for long time and been through all types of studies. Only research i have found is higher carbohydrate diet which I am doing. There is no heavy metal burden. I am reducing oxidative stress which is being taken care of with proper antioxidents support. Zinc, vitamin E deficeincy are being addressed. I have been researching this for 2 years and I have addressed all the issues. The only way I found to reverse it from my understanding is to drive down the t-4 with time released t-3 while supporting the adrenals ( i am doing that) or to elevate ft3 with armour to overide rt3, but this adds t-4 which could aggravate. I guess I will just have to try the armour and see if it over rides it and see if my symptoms get better if that does not work i guess it is time released t-3
 
Yes we (drs and I) determined the cause from number of factors due to oxidative stress (main cause). The cause was not mental either 3 psychiatrists proved this. A person that is in depression will most likely denied it. I recongized that something was not right with my body functioning and started to seek out answers. From my dealing with my problem am notice alot of body builders/ health people are suffering safe thing due to lifestlyes we live. I had my mid life crisis at 30 just not 50 and not are making major changes in my life in order to control and reduce the stress through stress management and relaxation techniques. Now that the stresses are all gone my body thyroids/adrenals never recovered. I predict in the future alot more medical drs are going to be seeing subclincal hypo thryoid and adrenal issues which they are just going to label "its in your head"

1.excess lipid perioxidation from free radicals from poly unsaturated fats (flax seed oil) which where heated up turned rancid depelting gluthione levels in the liver.
2. overtraining
3. excessive norepherine/adrenaline release not enough inhibitory neurotransmitters ( gabba/serotonin)
4. sugar imbalances (reactive hypoglycemic)
5. depleted antioxident / mineral reserves from low carb dieting

Basically when driving my body fat in the ground I also depleted my gluthione levels. By having my body in stress mode from dieting and many other factors (not mental). Mentaly I was happy as pig in crap with all aspects in my life. I had created an imbalance od adrenlaine to serotonin this triggered body to slow down digestion as well as breaking stored glycogen in liver and then protein and secreting raising blood sugar adding more fuel to the fire. Depeltion of gluthioine and liver glycogen, excessive adrenaline with put a hault to t4 to t3 and body will go into starvation mode and increase rt3. After removing all stresses body never kicked out of starvation mood and is locked in producing revere t-3.

I hope this helps alot of people
 
hardasnails1973 said:
Interesting, so you feel something more IM then SUB Q with hcg. How do you fit testosterone in a 27 gauge. It must take you for ever to shoot. I know 25 gauge 5/8 took me 3 minutes with 1 cc of sustenon LOL. How often you do hcg every 3 days like m,th is good or would be doing it lower dosage every 3 be best since it raises cortisol levels which I am in desperate need off.

You were right i think why i crashed I tried thay natural supplementation for cortisol with little more thyroid not knowing plus increasing testosterone to 1 gram day. Basically i crahed my adrenals by reducing cortisol and increasing testosterone. Should i take arimedx at
.25 mgs once every 3 days as saftey measure for test and dhea converting to estrogen.
Click to expand...
It's not hard to pull the T out of the vile using 200mgs./ml I only need to pull out .20ml = 40mgs. I pull the plunger all the way down and hold it the T comes out slow but in about a min. I have my dose. I do 400 IU's of HCG the 2 days in between.

I don't think you should do Arimidex unless you tested high if you don't know you will go down to low and this is not good.
Phil
 
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