My Cenegenics Experience

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  1. checking on cenegenics experience


    colkurtz,

    Have you been able to maintain your regimen with cenegenics? Any specifics you can share?


  2. Quote Originally Posted by randal View Post
    colkurtz,

    Have you been able to maintain your regimen with cenegenics? Any specifics you can share?
    I took an eight month break from HCG but didn't care for the way I felt. In December I started back on the HCG protocol at Cenegenics - this time at 2000 IUs per week. Six weeks later my draw revealed total testosterone at 957 with Fee at 233 and estradiol at 26. I'm also taking 1.5 mg of Arimidex per week, 25 mg of progesterone daily and 75 mg of DHEA. I feel great.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I took an eight month break from HCG but didn't care for the way I felt. In December I started back on the HCG protocol at Cenegenics - this time at 2000 IUs per week. Six weeks later my draw revealed total testosterone at 957 with Fee at 233 and estradiol at 26. I'm also taking 1.5 mg of Arimidex per week, 25 mg of progesterone daily and 75 mg of DHEA. I feel great.
    I think I am going to talk with my doc about doing 500-600 IUs of hCG EOD, and lose the T Cyp. It will be cheaper, easier and less meds. Colkurtz, do you have any suggestion as to whether I should taper off the T Cyp? I'm wondering if my T levels will remain fairly stable if I stop the T and triple my hCG level. I would imagine that my TT would remain in the range of 1,000. Right now, that is about the trough. Thanks in advance for any thoughts/advice.

  4. I don't know how much HCG you'll need to maintain your TT level. You may need a higher level to start. I did after coming off of the test cream. You'll probably need to titrate your dose based on your labs. I would draw every six weeks until you get it right. Arimidex may be needed eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I think I am going to talk with my doc about doing 500-600 IUs of hCG EOD, and lose the T Cyp. It will be cheaper, easier and less meds. Colkurtz, do you have any suggestion as to whether I should taper off the T Cyp? I'm wondering if my T levels will remain fairly stable if I stop the T and triple my hCG level. I would imagine that my TT would remain in the range of 1,000. Right now, that is about the trough. Thanks in advance for any thoughts/advice.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I don't know how much HCG you'll need to maintain your TT level. You may need a higher level to start. I did after coming off of the test cream. You'll probably need to titrate your dose based on your labs. I would draw every six weeks until you get it right. Arimidex may be needed eventually.
    I'm already on Arimidex. So, when you go of from T-cyp/hCG, to hCG monotherapy, you need to start off higher on the hCG? This is the sort of stuff I will just be figuring out with my doc; he doesnt seem to know, other than by trial and error. He'll invite me to propose a starting dose. Do you have any ideas? Maybe it should be 800 EOD to start. I recall you saying to Gator that ED is unnecessary given half life, right?

    Thanks dude!
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I'm already on Arimidex. So, when you go of from T-cyp/hCG, to hCG monotherapy, you need to start off higher on the hCG? This is the sort of stuff I will just be figuring out with my doc; he doesnt seem to know, other than by trial and error. He'll invite me to propose a starting dose. Do you have any ideas? Maybe it should be 800 EOD to start. I recall you saying to Gator that ED is unnecessary given half life, right?

    Thanks dude!
    I started from a very different place. I had been on the cream alone for a year then stopped and crashed. My doc started me on 5000 IUS twice per week for the first two months. By no means is that my recommendation to you.

    I think you could start with 1000 IUs every other day. That would be around 3500 per week. Draw blood in 6 weeks and see what you get. If your levels are perfect than remain at that dose for another six weeks and test again. If E2 is too high increase your Arimidex. You may see that your levels continue to increase every six weeks on the same dose - I did. At that point you can start to trim your dose until you are at a comfortable level.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I started from a very different place. I had been on the cream alone for a year then stopped and crashed. My doc started me on 5000 IUS twice per week for the first two months. By no means is that my recommendation to you.

    I think you could start with 1000 IUs every other day. That would be around 3500 per week. Draw blood in 6 weeks and see what you get. If your levels are perfect than remain at that dose for another six weeks and test again. If E2 is too high increase your Arimidex. You may see that your levels continue to increase every six weeks on the same dose - I did. At that point you can start to trim your dose until you are at a comfortable level.
    Thanks bro. Remind me, is hCG more likely to aromatize, or is it merely dependent on how much TT is increased? I recall people saying that hCG is morely succeptible to aromatization. If that is so, I would imagine that I may run into some significant E2 issues. 100 mgs of T-cyp and 500 IUs/week of hCG sent my E2 from 20 to 82; my TT on Day 6 was 1182 (hCG injections were days 5 and 6, and T cyp on Day 7 of the preceding week), from 350. From this, I inferred that I am a strong responder to hCG. Would you agree?

    Thanks for all your help. I plan to discuss this with my doc in the next week.

    J

  8. Are you primary?? I am primary and was on solo 5000 units of HCG a week. It only managed to raise my TT to 375..
    I am on 100 mg of test cyp right now with no HCG.
    My TT went up to 900 and my free went to 245..

    If you are primary you will probaby drop to a number you were at before the test cyp therapy.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by biker340 View Post
    Are you primary?? I am primary and was on solo 5000 units of HCG a week. It only managed to raise my TT to 375..
    I am on 100 mg of test cyp right now with no HCG.
    My TT went up to 900 and my free went to 245..

    If you are primary you will probaby drop to a number you were at before the test cyp therapy.

    That's correct. HCG only works if the problem is not the testes. With me it's the hypothalmus and low LH.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I started from a very different place. I had been on the cream alone for a year then stopped and crashed. My doc started me on 5000 IUS twice per week for the first two months. By no means is that my recommendation to you.

    I think you could start with 1000 IUs every other day. That would be around 3500 per week. Draw blood in 6 weeks and see what you get. If your levels are perfect than remain at that dose for another six weeks and test again. If E2 is too high increase your Arimidex. You may see that your levels continue to increase every six weeks on the same dose - I did. At that point you can start to trim your dose until you are at a comfortable level.
    I like this post, looks like a good/practical way for someone deciding to find out if he is secondary.

    I have used your post as a reference here:
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/583167-post7.html
    ------------------------------------------------

    What is you definition of comfortable (testosterone) level?

    Going by numbers I saw floating around, I am thinking of

    FreeT=>160
    when one is using HCG only, plus Arnastrozole but no external testosterone.

    To find out that FreeT #
    one would use either Quest Diagnostics test
    Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
    or
    dr Shippen's chart using TotalT and SHBG values, post #41
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...oodtest-2.html
    or
    calculator:
    http://www.issam.ch/freetesto.htm

  11. You are the resident expert on these types of issues, Jan, but I am fairly confident I will bust 200 FT on 2k IUs of HCG (600 IUs EOD) and ~1.5 mgs of Arnastrozole.

  12. That's a good question. Maybe the answer depends on the individual. FT at 160 should be enough for anyone. I feel good at 233, but felt better in the 300 range. I didn't see much of an added benefit at 425. It only raised my estrogen level.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    That's a good question. Maybe the answer depends on the individual. FT at 160 should be enough for anyone. I feel good at 233, but felt better in the 300 range. I didn't see much of an added benefit at 425. It only raised my estrogen level.
    Solid information, thank you.

    .

  14. So if ones issues was varicocele the HCG treatment would not be advisable correct ?

    Thanks
    Jason

  15. Quote Originally Posted by beckerj View Post
    So if ones issues was varicocele the HCG treatment would not be advisable correct ?

    Thanks
    Jason
    Becker, not sure what you are inferring that from, but I dont think that is the case. hCG could be the proper treatment, in spite of a vericocele.
  16. Primary = Varicocele ?


    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    That's correct. HCG only works if the problem is not the testes. With me it's the hypothalmus and low LH.
    I had bilateral varicocele so I wonder if the HCG protocol would even be a right course of action for those with varicocele, seeing as though colkurtz_spf is saying that HCG only works if the problem is not the testes ....

    Right now I am on androgel .... I have been for 2 1/2 weeks .... I had the "WOW" "Eurphoric" experience and now I have, as of today upped the dosage to 6 pumps, seeing as though I have had the crash ....

  17. Quote Originally Posted by beckerj View Post
    I had bilateral varicocele so I wonder if the HCG protocol would even be a right course of action for those with varicocele, seeing as though colkurtz_spf is saying that HCG only works if the problem is not the testes ....

    Right now I am on androgel .... I have been for 2 1/2 weeks .... I had the "WOW" "Eurphoric" experience and now I have, as of today upped the dosage to 6 pumps, seeing as though I have had the crash ....
    Becker, it all depends on how impaired the testes are. You can have vericoceles, and still produce optimal levels of T, theoretically.

  18. I have yet to hear from one person on here that has had varicocele and surgery recover their T .... if you search the forum for varicocele and read through the posts .... most of us are on T or trying anyting and everything to get back to normal .....

    Not sure where my testes are .... I know i am not right though ....

  19. Quote Originally Posted by beckerj View Post
    I have yet to hear from one person on here that has had varicocele and surgery recover their T .... if you search the forum for varicocele and read through the posts .... most of us are on T or trying anyting and everything to get back to normal .....

    Not sure where my testes are .... I know i am not right though ....
    Well, you need to consider your audience . . . on a steroid forum. When I thought I had a varicocele (ended up being a testicle that did not completely descend, with a thick spermatic cord), I did a fair amount of research, and I am fairly certain there are some with varicoceles with optimal testosterone. That said, there likely is some impairment; but that doesnt mean hCG is not worth a try.

    Good luck.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by beckerj View Post
    I have yet to hear from one person on here that has had varicocele and surgery recover their T .... if you search the forum for varicocele and read through the posts .... most of us are on T or trying anyting and everything to get back to normal .....

    Not sure where my testes are .... I know i am not right though ....

    becker,

    what were your LH and FSH levels before surgery.If LH level was low and FSH normal, then you dont have any problem with testes

  21. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    That's correct. HCG only works if the problem is not the testes. With me it's the hypothalmus and low LH.
    Didnt you go for any surgery for curing hypothlamus disorder

  22. jinxie - I hear ya .... There may be some with optimal T after surgery but is is a fact that varicocele does cause a drop in T .... There is even more information that shows that there is a threshold of T .... Once you drop below it you experience the symptoms ....

    I was thinking of trying the HCG after my 30 day trial of Androgel, if the DR will even entertain it .... We all know how DR's are .... So I am fairly sure, unless after meeting with the new Endo in July, I am stuck with Androgel for the time being ....

    I did up my dosage to 6 pumps a day and added the under arms as a application point .... 2nd day on 6 pumps and my energy is great .... been a busy little bee here at work ... installing monitors and building pc's left and right .... SMILE

    I just wish that more info was out there letting first time users of Androgel of the WOW and Crash .... It really made me feel like stopping the Androgel ....

  23. Quote Originally Posted by beckerj View Post
    jinxie - I hear ya .... There may be some with optimal T after surgery but is is a fact that varicocele does cause a drop in T .... There is even more information that shows that there is a threshold of T .... Once you drop below it you experience the symptoms ....

    I was thinking of trying the HCG after my 30 day trial of Androgel, if the DR will even entertain it .... We all know how DR's are .... So I am fairly sure, unless after meeting with the new Endo in July, I am stuck with Androgel for the time being ....

    I did up my dosage to 6 pumps a day and added the under arms as a application point .... 2nd day on 6 pumps and my energy is great .... been a busy little bee here at work ... installing monitors and building pc's left and right .... SMILE

    I just wish that more info was out there letting first time users of Androgel of the WOW and Crash .... It really made me feel like stopping the Androgel ....
    Glad to hear your feeling well! Good luck with the doc.

  24. Thanks man ....

    I am gonna put out a general question ....

    How do we overcome the performance anxiety that we have when we start to get better ?

    I get so nervous when my other half wants to get busy .... Now if i am the one that is chasing it i am not so nervous ....

  25. Quote Originally Posted by beckerj View Post
    Thanks man ....

    I am gonna put out a general question ....

    How do we overcome the performance anxiety that we have when we start to get better ?

    I get so nervous when my other half wants to get busy .... Now if i am the one that is chasing it i am not so nervous ....
    My best advice, which is easier said than done, is to be a man, and admit your anxieties and insecurities, so that you and yours can conquer them together. I understand that women find such admissions very endearing.
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