My Cenegenics Experience - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 3

My Cenegenics Experience

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  1. health4life24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    My Hypothalmus does not produce an adequate level of LH for my testosterone production. My baseline is 3.9. For some that may be enough, but not for me. I'm not sure that brain surgery is the answer. My deficiency could be due to aging or environmental factors. I didn't have this problem when I was younger, and in any case my therapy is working.
    My LH is 1.9 and FSH is like only .9, but somehow I'm sill able to produce midrange TT and FT levels which I think would be an anomaly. I'm still trying to figure this one out. My main problem is lack of libido and adrenal issues. I have tried HCG which I respond well to, but still no libido. Just wondering if my low LH & FSH is still a problem, despite ok test levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kalyson View Post
    Very interesting information. We are going to see a doctor in Northern CA for HRT, but it is incredibly expensive. The tests for women cost a bit more than men -- it was 1002.00 per person for lab work and initial consultations. The charge for the 6 month contract for oversight plus the first 5 weeks of medications was about $1950 per person. We are getting GH, hormone creams, pills (Pregnenolone, DHEA, thyroid and adrenal support). I'm not sure how this compares to other plans, but it is pretty expensive for us. Almost 3000.00 each. Does that seem reasonable?
    The initial blood work and consultation seems reasonable, but the six month fees seem high. I paid 1350 per period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    My LH is 1.9 and FSH is like only .9, but somehow I'm sill able to produce midrange TT and FT levels which I think would be an anomaly. I'm still trying to figure this one out. My main problem is lack of libido and adrenal issues. I have tried HCG which I respond well to, but still no libido. Just wondering if my low LH & FSH is still a problem, despite ok test levels.
    What were you numbers before and after HCG, and how long were you on for?
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    What were you numbers before and after HCG, and how long were you on for?
    Those were my numbers before HCG. I don't know what they were after because I didn't do a test. Just went by how I felt. Was able to work out again and had huge boost in energy. I felt I responded well, but still had libido issues. I did do a Rheins after 10 days of stopping HCG if that counts for anything. TT was near top of range.
  5. kalyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    The initial blood work and consultation seems reasonable, but the six month fees seem high. I paid 1350 per period.
    So that included all your meds, too? The oversight fee for 6 mos was 1250 for one but 1000 for the second person in a couple. The difference was the meds for 5 weeks (for each person).
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    Quote Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    Those were my numbers before HCG. I don't know what they were after because I didn't do a test. Just went by how I felt. Was able to work out again and had huge boost in energy. I felt I responded well, but still had libido issues. I did do a Rheins after 10 days of stopping HCG if that counts for anything. TT was near top of range.
    It would be hard to comment without knowing how much you injected and the frequency. Also labs are important. HCG can increase E2 which would diminish your desire for sex.
  7. kalyson's Avatar
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    How long did it take to notice a difference on HGH? We are setting the pen to .2
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalyson View Post
    How long did it take to notice a difference on HGH? We are setting the pen to .2
    .2 isn't very much at all, but I'm sure your doctor has his reasons.

    I noticed results in 30 days, and my condition improved over time. The most dramatic changes came in 6 months. The results stay with you for quite some time after you stop using it. Even though my doctor recommends daily injections I take 2 days off per week and one month off every six.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    It would be hard to comment without knowing how much you injected and the frequency. Also labs are important. HCG can increase E2 which would diminish your desire for sex.
    Total estrogens were near top of range. I have used an AI many times before though. Did nothing for libido. Just gave me more energy and clarity of mind. The HCG I used was a homeopathic oral version. Put some drops under tounge, felt it kicking in and working very well after about 10 minutes. I have no idea the amount of IU's it would equate to. I have used injectable to, but prefer the oral because it's easier to deal with and can also have it on me if need be.

    Here are my results if you want to take a look from a Rheins test.
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    Quote Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    Total estrogens were near top of range. I have used an AI many times before though. Did nothing for libido. Just gave me more energy and clarity of mind. The HCG I used was a homeopathic oral version. Put some drops under tounge, felt it kicking in and working very well after about 10 minutes. I have no idea the amount of IU's it would equate to. I have used injectable to, but prefer the oral because it's easier to deal with and can also have it on me if need be.

    Here are my results if you want to take a look from a Rheins test.
    I'm not familiar with oral HCG. I'm talking to a lab that has developed lipid encapsulation for hormones. The medicine dissolves in the lower intestines bypassing the liver. To date they have used it for estrogen, low dose testosterone and oxytocin for women. They are waiting for materials to make a test run on HCG, and I'll be the lab rabbit. I plan to post the results here. I've been told this will also work with testosterone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckerj View Post
    Thanks man ....

    I am gonna put out a general question ....

    How do we overcome the performance anxiety that we have when we start to get better ?

    I get so nervous when my other half wants to get busy .... Now if i am the one that is chasing it i am not so nervous ....
    I had the exact same issue. My doc suggested a tiny bit of Xanax prior to the event and it made all the difference in the world
  12. living2die's Avatar
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    fascinating stuff colonel kurtz. i think i speak for everyone when i encourage you too start up a new thread, when you begin the therapy, posting your results, as well as the lab work which verifies the positive and negatives of the oral encapsulated hcg route.

    also, it seems like the medical community has is updating their hcg protocols for secondary hypogondism. according to this merck readout, as low as just over 700 IU are recommended as standard doses for secondary hypo's.
    http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec17/ch227/ch227b.html

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I'm not familiar with oral HCG. I'm talking to a lab that has developed lipid encapsulation for hormones. The medicine dissolves in the lower intestines bypassing the liver. To date they have used it for estrogen, low dose testosterone and oxytocin for women. They are waiting for materials to make a test run on HCG, and I'll be the lab rabbit. I plan to post the results here. I've been told this will also work with testosterone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by living2die View Post
    fascinating stuff colonel kurtz. i think i speak for everyone when i encourage you too start up a new thread, when you begin the therapy, posting your results, as well as the lab work which verifies the positive and negatives of the oral encapsulated hcg route.

    also, it seems like the medical community has is updating their hcg protocols for secondary hypogondism. according to this merck readout, as low as just over 700 IU are recommended as standard doses for secondary hypo's.
    http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec17/ch227/ch227b.html
    I plan to include liver values in the blood work to determine if indeed the liver is bypassed. It's not practical to suggest a standard dose for secondary hypogonadism as everyone is different.
    Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 02-16-2009 at 11:25 PM.
  14. living2die's Avatar
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    I know you have probably said this before, but what is your weekly dose of HCG at?

    Are you still using +/- 2000 IU EW?
    What is your e2 at?
    What is your PROG at?
    Are you also using PREG TD and/or DHEA oral/TD ?
    Are you using arimidex?

    Respekt.

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I plan to include liver values in the blood work to determine if indeed the liver is bypassed. It's not practical to suggest a standard dose for secondary hypogonadism as everyone is different.
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    colkurtz this will be an awesome experiment. If hcg can be delivered orally, I'll probably jump back on the bandwagon quickly. Having to stick myself a couple of times per week is a major buzz kill. My numbers were pretty darn good at 250iu EOD. Please keep us updated and a new thread would be nice!
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    Quote Originally Posted by living2die View Post
    I know you have probably said this before, but what is your weekly dose of HCG at?

    Are you still using +/- 2000 IU EW?
    What is your e2 at?
    What is your PROG at?
    Are you also using PREG TD and/or DHEA oral/TD ?
    Are you using arimidex?

    Respekt.
    Right now I'm doing 1500IUs E3D with .5 mg of Arimidex. Each morning I take 75 mg of DHEA. That is my usual protocol. I had been on 1000 E3D and these were the results:

    TT 948
    FT 197.4
    BT 405.9
    E2 24
    DHT 78
    DHEA 374

    My testosterone levels were lower at that dose and I felt the difference. I didn't test progesterone, but my range has always been good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thenxtgrt1 View Post
    colkurtz this will be an awesome experiment. If hcg can be delivered orally, I'll probably jump back on the bandwagon quickly. Having to stick myself a couple of times per week is a major buzz kill. My numbers were pretty darn good at 250iu EOD. Please keep us updated and a new thread would be nice!
    I'm still waiting for the pharmacy to get the materials...keep your fingers crossed. They say the same can be done with testosterone. From what I understand they make a low dose version for women. They have no requests for a male version so none has been produced. These people don't realize the potential demand.
  18. living2die's Avatar
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    colkurtz,
    have you ever considered using PREG TD ? thematrix/hardasnails1973 advocates strongly for its use, especially for people like us are on hcg mono. hardasnails/thematrix thinks that PREG levels become depleted after chronic hcg usage. in my case, when i started using PREG TD, (i have used OTC LIFE FLO PREG as well as raw PREG powder administered in DMSO vehicle) i felt loads better than when i was on hcg alone. i feel so much better that i still feel just as good on 300-500 IU HCG EOD as I did on 500IU ED. also, i have much more energy.
    try a simple experiment and see for yourself.
    purchase some over the counter LIFE FLO brand PREG TD. use 2-3 pumps (total 30-45mg PREG). for me, i could feel the effects within 30 minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Right now I'm doing 1500IUs E3D with .5 mg of Arimidex. Each morning I take 75 mg of DHEA. That is my usual protocol. I had been on 1000 E3D and these were the results:

    TT 948
    FT 197.4
    BT 405.9
    E2 24
    DHT 78
    DHEA 374

    My testosterone levels were lower at that dose and I felt the difference. I didn't test progesterone, but my range has always been good.
  19. living2die's Avatar
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    also, using jansz's PREG/DHEA theory, you likely are in the normal/high-normal range of PREG. from jansz's experience, when his DHEA is high, his PREG is high. when his DHEA is low, his PREG is low. for you, PREG TD might not have as profound of an impact.

    RESPEKT


    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Right now I'm doing 1500IUs E3D with .5 mg of Arimidex. Each morning I take 75 mg of DHEA. That is my usual protocol. I had been on 1000 E3D and these were the results:

    TT 948
    FT 197.4
    BT 405.9
    E2 24
    DHT 78
    DHEA 374

    My testosterone levels were lower at that dose and I felt the difference. I didn't test progesterone, but my range has always been good.
  20. colkurtz_spf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by living2die View Post
    colkurtz,
    have you ever considered using PREG TD ? thematrix/hardasnails1973 advocates strongly for its use, especially for people like us are on hcg mono. hardasnails/thematrix thinks that PREG levels become depleted after chronic hcg usage. in my case, when i started using PREG TD, (i have used OTC LIFE FLO PREG as well as raw PREG powder administered in DMSO vehicle) i felt loads better than when i was on hcg alone. i feel so much better that i still feel just as good on 300-500 IU HCG EOD as I did on 500IU ED. also, i have much more energy.
    try a simple experiment and see for yourself.
    purchase some over the counter LIFE FLO brand PREG TD. use 2-3 pumps (total 30-45mg PREG). for me, i could feel the effects within 30 minutes.
    Thanks for the advice. I may try it in the future. I've also tried EOD shots of HCG but that didn't work well for me. My E2 went way up. I do better with less frequency. I like the HCG dose I'm now, and will post the results after I draw. I can't imagine feeling any better than I do now. I wish I felt this good in my 30s.
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    Smile


    yeh i think that just now there is an emerging change in analyzing hrt therapies. all that crap about how T alone is the defacto supreme way of administering hrt. frankly, i felt terrible on T alone. i would rather have a total T of 300 as well as a healthy hormonal balance than a TRT dose of 200mg PW of T, because yes, you might have high T, but all of your other hormones that precede T are out of wack.

    i would highly recommend that you try some PREG TD life flo OTC for like 10 bucks and that you post your reaction on this board...a guinea pig if you will lol

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Thanks for the advice. I may try it in the future. I've also tried EOD shots of HCG but that didn't work well for me. My E2 went way up. I do better with less frequency. I like the HCG dose I'm now, and will post the results after I draw. I can't imagine feeling any better than I do now. I wish I felt this good in my 30s.
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    Oral HCG


    In regards to oral HCG, you can buy it from a company called Mediral. Well actually, you can't technically unless you are a registered homeopathic health professional. This is what allot of weight loss clinics use when they put people on the popular hcg diet. Your supposed to put 10-20 drops under your tounge.

    I found out about this from a lady that has a clinic here in town. We got to talkin' and told her I didn't want to do the diet, but try it our for other purposes to see if it would make me feel better. I have tried injectable HCG also, but think I actually prefer the oral because I really couldn't tell the difference. The oral is so much easier to deal with and you can take it with you.

    If anyone is interested, I have noticed some people selling it on ebay if they really want to try it out. I'm lucky I have a source here in town. For now, I'm trying to stay off the HCG until I get my thyroid and adrenal issues dealt with.

    As an interesting note, I did have mid-range T before the oral HCG. Stopped 10 days before doing a Rhein's Urine test. My TT numbers came up to the top of the range. I was surprised because I thought it would have been out of my system by the time of the test. It looks like I responded very well. As a negative though, it raised my progesterone to double the range and dhea & it's metabolites. It would be nice to have the high test from the use of HCG without it also raising preg. & Progesterone also. I think these are killing my libido currently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    In regards to oral HCG, you can buy it from a company called Mediral. Well actually, you can't technically unless you are a registered homeopathic health professional. This is what allot of weight loss clinics use when they put people on the popular hcg diet. Your supposed to put 10-20 drops under your tounge.

    I found out about this from a lady that has a clinic here in town. We got to talkin' and told her I didn't want to do the diet, but try it our for other purposes to see if it would make me feel better. I have tried injectable HCG also, but think I actually prefer the oral because I really couldn't tell the difference. The oral is so much easier to deal with and you can take it with you.

    If anyone is interested, I have noticed some people selling it on ebay if they really want to try it out. I'm lucky I have a source here in town. For now, I'm trying to stay off the HCG until I get my thyroid and adrenal issues dealt with.

    As an interesting note, I did have mid-range T before the oral HCG. Stopped 10 days before doing a Rhein's Urine test. My TT numbers came up to the top of the range. I was surprised because I thought it would have been out of my system by the time of the test. It looks like I responded very well. As a negative though, it raised my progesterone to double the range and dhea & it's metabolites. It would be nice to have the high test from the use of HCG without it also raising preg. & Progesterone also. I think these are killing my libido currently.
    This is not what I'm talking about. I'll be testing lipid encapsulated HCG tablets, not a homeopathic formula. Mine, theoretically should yield the same result as injection. I wouldn't touch any of the orals advertised on the Internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    This is not what I'm talking about. I'll be testing lipid encapsulated HCG tablets, not a homeopathic formula. Mine, theoretically should yield the same result as injection. I wouldn't touch any of the orals advertised on the Internet.
    I think the oral is just as good if not better. Who wants to deal with injections when you can put 10-20 drops under your tongue? Seriously, I couldn't tell that much of a difference. I think that I actually felt better on the oral to tell you the truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    I think the oral is just as good if not better. Who wants to deal with injections when you can put 10-20 drops under your tongue? Seriously, I couldn't tell that much of a difference. I think that I actually felt better on the oral to tell you the truth.
    If it threw your other hormones out of whack it failed.
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    Colkurtz -Very interesting write-up on Cenegenics. I also play competitive tennis but now that I am 46 i've had a few knee surgeries, gained weight, etc...so I'm considering Cenegenics. I'm now 6'4, 250 lbs and Im having trouble getting weight off which I need to do to take pressure off my knees and move better on the court.

    Since I've gained about 15-20 lbs in the last 1.5 years, I'm considering Cenegenics...maybe there is a hormone issue they can addres?

    Bottomline, would your recommend it to get lean and perform better on the court?

    Also, what is your current weight, etc. after all of your treatments?

    Thanks very much...
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    I joined Cenegenics because of a particular doctor. In this field of medicine, I don't subscribe to cookie-cutter treatments. Hormone modulation depends on the individual. My doctor eventually became a CEO of Cenegenics. He moved his clinic and changed his approach to therapy. It wasn't to my liking so I switched doctors and ended my relationship with Cenegenics. That was 18 months ago, and I have no regrets whatsoever.

    I'm a believer in nutrition, exercise and hormone therapy when necessary. Currently, I weigh around 230. I'd like to lose another 10 pounds or so. I have two bad knees. One put me out of pro tennis over 30 years ago. The lighter you can get, the quicker you will heal. A 5% reduction in body weight can lead to dramatic improvement. I recommend swimming, stretching and physical therapy. Give up tennis for a while or limit your time on the court if you're competitive. Try two half hour sessions a week with limited movement. You can have someone feed you forehands and backhands down the middle for 20 minutes followed by 10 minutes of serving. This will help you keep your timing.


    Quote Originally Posted by madtown View Post
    Colkurtz -Very interesting write-up on Cenegenics. I also play competitive tennis but now that I am 46 i've had a few knee surgeries, gained weight, etc...so I'm considering Cenegenics. I'm now 6'4, 250 lbs and Im having trouble getting weight off which I need to do to take pressure off my knees and move better on the court.

    Since I've gained about 15-20 lbs in the last 1.5 years, I'm considering Cenegenics...maybe there is a hormone issue they can addres?

    Bottomline, would your recommend it to get lean and perform better on the court?

    Also, what is your current weight, etc. after all of your treatments?

    Thanks very much...
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    I am surprised that you yielded such strong results from the OTC homeopathic formula, that the colonel has commented on. might i suggest that you have these numbers verified through a different method, i.e. TT, e2, FT through blood draw ? The homeopathic HCG is snake oil in my opinion. HCG will degrade after reconstitution if not refrigerated. You can get the homeopathic formula on craigs list, not to mention ebay. That gives you an idea of what kind of product it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    This is not what I'm talking about. I'll be testing lipid encapsulated HCG tablets, not a homeopathic formula. Mine, theoretically should yield the same result as injection. I wouldn't touch any of the orals advertised on the Internet.
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    Hey colkhurtz, could you give me the lab ranges? Thanks.


    TT 948
    FT 197.4
    BT 405.9
    E2 24
    DHT 78
    DHEA 374








    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Right now I'm doing 1500IUs E3D with .5 mg of Arimidex. Each morning I take 75 mg of DHEA. That is my usual protocol. I had been on 1000 E3D and these were the results:


    Hey colkhurtz, could you give me the lab ranges? Thanks.


    TT 948
    FT 197.4
    BT 405.9
    E2 24
    DHT 78
    DHEA 374


    My testosterone levels were lower at that dose and I felt the difference. I didn't test progesterone, but my range has always been good.
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    Mediral is to HCG what Protein Powder is to Testosterone

    i.e. not the same thing !


    Wow...didn't realize this thread is 1 yr old !

    Maybe the colonel has some exciting updates to share !


    Quote Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    I think the oral is just as good if not better. Who wants to deal with injections when you can put 10-20 drops under your tongue? Seriously, I couldn't tell that much of a difference. I think that I actually felt better on the oral to tell you the truth.
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    I have nothing exciting to share. The lab decided not to make an oral version of HCG. I'm still pinning twice a week, and feel great. The results have been good so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by living2die View Post
    Mediral is to HCG what Protein Powder is to Testosterone

    i.e. not the same thing !


    Wow...didn't realize this thread is 1 yr old !

    Maybe the colonel has some exciting updates to share !
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    Colonel, how long have you been on and off HCG ? What was your longest break from using HCG ? How long were you off of HCG before you hit your baseline hormonal levels ? Did you use an AI like Arimidex while coming off of HCG to kick start your natural GnRH and subsequent LH and FSH production ?



    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I have nothing exciting to share. The lab decided not to make an oral version of HCG. I'm still pinning twice a week, and feel great. The results have been good so far.
  33. colkurtz_spf's Avatar
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    I took an 8 month break after the first year. Within a month I established my baseline numbers. I didn't use Arimidex.

    Quote Originally Posted by living2die View Post
    Colonel, how long have you been on and off HCG ? What was your longest break from using HCG ? How long were you off of HCG before you hit your baseline hormonal levels ? Did you use an AI like Arimidex while coming off of HCG to kick start your natural GnRH and subsequent LH and FSH production ?
  34. living2die's Avatar
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    That is great colonel. I know you feel like a broken record but what were your baseline numbers for FSH, LH, TT, Free T, and Estradiol ?


    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I took an 8 month break after the first year. Within a month I established my baseline numbers. I didn't use Arimidex.
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    Guys I have read as much as I can here on this thread. I am a 55 year old married man with 4 kids and now have some time to attend to me. I am considering the cenegenics program and would like to know what the over all thoughts are here with the contributors to this forum. I truly appreciate all of your input.

    Thanks

    Chris G
  36. The Matrix's Avatar
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    If you want to fork out 5-6 grand a year for what you get for 1/4 or less of the price else where. You make the choice. They are all about advertisement and marketing.
  37. colkurtz_spf's Avatar
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    My first experience with Cenegenics was a good. My doctor had published several books on health an aging. He was a former thoracic surgeon and an accomplished tri-athlete. His office was a hole in the wall, but he was a damn good doctor. I was impressed. Unfortunately, he had just joined Cenegenics. In the beginning I noticed no difference. He was the same no-nonsense guy. Within a year he opened up a slick spa style operation, and shortly thereafter became the CEO of Cenegenics - at least for my area. Not only did the prices go up, he insisted on new prescriptions when me protocol was working well. I left Cenegenics three years ago and don't miss it. In my opinion, it's a total waste of money. I like the doctor who has been treating me for the last three years. I feel great, and at a fraction of the cost. I'm the guy who started this thread five years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by cgio View Post
    Guys I have read as much as I can here on this thread. I am a 55 year old married man with 4 kids and now have some time to attend to me. I am considering the cenegenics program and would like to know what the over all thoughts are here with the contributors to this forum. I truly appreciate all of your input.

    Thanks

    Chris G
  38. colkurtz_spf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    If you want to fork out 5-6 grand a year for what you get for 1/4 or less of the price else where. You make the choice. They are all about advertisement and marketing.
    Try $20K to $30K per year.
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    colkurtz,

    We are about the same age. I was thinking about trying Cenegenics, but your posts as well as other online information has convinced me that this is not the way to go. I am a former athlete like yourself. I qualified for the Olympic Trials in 1980, but the USA boycotted and I didn't have the luxury of trying again in 84 (I had to make a living).

    Can you possibly share information about your current doctor? I want to find a professional to help me get the right combinations of hormones/supplements to attain and maintain good health and fitness. I am 6'4" and 230 lbs. I work out 5 days a week - weights and cardio.

    Can you be of help?
  40. ifxne's Avatar
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    Have you noticed if you restrict calories while on HCG you can lose fat quickly while maintaining muscle? I've noticed this on 250mcg EOD.
  

  
 

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