My Cenegenics Experience

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by motiv8er View Post
    Understood. WE get one body, one life. Its a shame to waste it one way or another. Then again, when I check out, I hope I shatter into a million pieces; cause there wont be sh!t left on me to work!! I used it all up in this life.

    That's a good philosophy. Unfortunately as we get older we start to think about the quality of life. Being bound by a wheel chair or attached to a colostomy bag is not the most appealing lifestyle. It's not how long you live, but how you live it long.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    That's a good philosophy. Unfortunately as we get older we start to think about the quality of life. Being bound by a wheel chair or attached to a colostomy bag is not the most appealing lifestyle. It's not how long you live, but how you live it long.
    Beautifully said. At 27, my daredevil stunt days are OVER. Ive always been a risk taker, but now my risks are in other ventures, like business/money and other risks that don't involve anything physical.
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    That's a good philosophy. Unfortunately as we get older we start to think about the quality of life. Being bound by a wheel chair or attached to a colostomy bag is not the most appealing lifestyle. It's not how long you live, but how you live it long.
    Agreed. However, this is my 61 year old father take on it. And why he hopes just to bike off a cliff when it is his time. For the above mentioned reasons, but also why his mental state is his own. I am being very serious. You could say he's gonna rock until the wheels roll off!!
    My The 1 LOG: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/254164-my-one-log.html

  4. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Sorry I did not respond sooner. I've been out of town.

    I suppose I have no right to complain. This past year I have felt better than I have in decades. Still, I worry about the long-term effects of this treatment. One year is a short time frame for me. Regardless of my results in June I plan to get a second opinion.
    Whats your current drug regimine?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by motiv8er View Post
    Agreed. However, this is my 61 year old father take on it. And why he hopes just to bike off a cliff when it is his time. For the above mentioned reasons, but also why his mental state is his own. I am being very serious. You could say he's gonna rock until the wheels roll off!!
    It's a good philosophy, and one that I subscribe to.

    When I was not much older than you (31) I was diagnosed with a spinal condition that was supposed to paralyze me by 50. Of course there was a surgical solution - one that I ignored. At 39 I was unable to walk for a period of six weeks. A Rumanian miracle worker was able to massage me to my feet again. After that I hit the gym. It was difficult. I couldn't bend to tie my shoes let alone perform a squat. Today (10 years later) I dead lift 465 from the ground for six reps and bench 225 for 19.

    I believe in getting as much out of life as possible, and in my mind it means taking care of my body. The parable about ending your life in a worn out body VS a well-preserved one is actually quite old. One could take it as literal, but I prefer to think of it as a metaphor for getting the most out of life.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Whats your current drug regimine?
    I'm currently using HCG 2000 IUs twice per week and taking 1 MG of Arimidex 3 times per week. My dosage is constantly decreasing and my test numbers keep going up, and that is making me nervous.

    Currently my total test is over 1400 and free at 425. My estradiol is at 56, but I don't feel any of the associated sides. My libido is very high. I started last June at 10,000 IUs per week. I have a call with my doc next week; we should be moving down to 2000 IUs or less per week.

    I thinking about a consultation with Dr. Shabana, but he doesn't run the same panels as Dr. John and so I'm reluctant.

  7. Wholy **** your on alot of drugs! 4000UI of hCG per week? Its been proven that testical function is best restored at 500IU - 750 IU per week.

    And 3mg of arimidex? Wow.

    How much T? Any GH?

    Your TT of 1400 is crazy bro. I would think that would NOT be safe long term. I think its best to be conservative with it and shoot for ranges that a normal male 24 - 30 has, shooting for ranges in the 600's and a little higher.
    Last edited by plymouth city; 04-06-2007 at 07:12 PM. Reason: none

  8. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    At 39 I was unable to walk for a period of six weeks. A Rumanian miracle worker was able to massage me to my feet again. After that I hit the gym. It was difficult. I couldn't bend to tie my shoes let alone perform a squat. Today (10 years later) I dead lift 465 from the ground for six reps and bench 225 for 19.
    Very couragous. Lots of folks would have given up. 465 for 6 is respectable at any age.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I'm currently using HCG 2000 IUs twice per week and taking 1 MG of Arimidex 3 times per week. My dosage is constantly decreasing and my test numbers keep going up, and that is making me nervous.

    Currently my total test is over 1400 and free at 425. My estradiol is at 56, but I don't feel any of the associated sides. My libido is very high. I started last June at 10,000 IUs per week. I have a call with my doc next week; we should be moving down to 2000 IUs or less per week.

    I thinking about a consultation with Dr. Shabana, but he doesn't run the same panels as Dr. John and so I'm reluctant.
    Whatewer you are doing is working for you.
    Cannot argue with success.
    Have you in any of the previous posts provided description of your self your complains, treatment you have got. History of treatment and possiby reason that you doctor did what he did.

    If you did, please post a link to this posts if not, I would appreciate if you provide this information.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Whatewer you are doing is working for you.
    Cannot argue with success.
    Have you in any of the previous posts provided description of your self your complains, treatment you have got. History of treatment and possiby reason that you doctor did what he did.

    If you did, please post a link to this posts if not, I would appreciate if you provide this information.
    I started this thread. In the beginning I posted some intial blood test results and I think I may have given some background. I plan to update this the end of June.
    •   
       


  11. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I started this thread. In the beginning I posted some intial blood test results and I think I may have given some background. I plan to update this the end of June.

    i talked to Dr silverman and no where on there webste does it lists prices, but for 2500 you get the program. WTF does that consist of ? what tests and how evasive are their testing? If nothing is covered by insurance. I mean my insurance could pay for all the testing detoxification, mineral anayalsis ect, what they charge 2500 for? just a consultation?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    i talked to Dr silverman and no where on there webste does it lists prices, but for 2500 you get the program. WTF does that consist of ? what tests and how evasive are their testing? If nothing is covered by insurance. I mean my insurance could pay for all the testing detoxification, mineral anayalsis ect, what they charge 2500 for? just a consultation?
    Yep, it's a day-long thing - all sorts of testing. At the end of the day, you meet with a physician and they recommend a program: supps, HRT, diet and exercise. They like to supply all of the supps and the hormones, but I don't know if it is required. They operate, as most anti-aging physicians do, on a pay-as-you-go basis. They will not bill third party payors, although they will provide the docs you need in order to submit your own claim.

    They used to be cutting-edge. But, as Dr. John has indicated, the field has sort of passed them by.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    Yep, it's a day-long thing - all sorts of testing. At the end of the day, you meet with a physician and they recommend a program: supps, HRT, diet and exercise. They like to supply all of the supps and the hormones, but I don't know if it is required. They operate, as most anti-aging physicians do, on a pay-as-you-go basis. They will not bill third party payors, although they will provide the docs you need in order to submit your own claim.

    They used to be cutting-edge. But, as Dr. John has indicated, the field has sort of passed them by.
    Have HCG, tcreame, DIM. pregenonlone creame, may be arimdex will travel

    Thats why i like dr john approach whole lot better..I am starting to see the method behind his madness. Using the pregnenolone cream which body can use to convert to what it needs. More so it converts to progesterone when entering the through the skin providing the building blocks and using it raise progesterone and even possibly testosterone, dhea, while choking off the estrogen metabolism with the DIM if need be. I have always loved this mentality give the body what id needs and let it rebalance it self..

  14. Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    i talked to Dr silverman and no where on there webste does it lists prices, but for 2500 you get the program. WTF does that consist of ? what tests and how evasive are their testing? If nothing is covered by insurance. I mean my insurance could pay for all the testing detoxification, mineral anayalsis ect, what they charge 2500 for? just a consultation?
    Hey,, they have to pay for the ads that appear in the sports section of my daily newspaper.. My 11year old son gets a kick out of seeing the, "old muscle man" in the photo

  15. "They used to be cutting-edge. But, as Dr. John has indicated, the field has sort of passed them by."

    I have been concidering this program and have found this post very intresting. Could somebody please expand on the comment made above. What programs are more advanced then them?

    Colkurtz_spf, its been almost a year. Are you happy with the results this far and would you do it again? Is the program worth the price of admission?

    I am not a body builder just a guy who use to be an athlete who as let him self go and am looking for a program to help me get back in shape and start some good habits.

    Thanks for all the comments so far.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Concerned1963 View Post
    "They used to be cutting-edge. But, as Dr. John has indicated, the field has sort of passed them by."

    I have been concidering this program and have found this post very intresting. Could somebody please expand on the comment made above. What programs are more advanced then them?

    Colkurtz_spf, its been almost a year. Are you happy with the results this far and would you do it again? Is the program worth the price of admission?

    I am not a body builder just a guy who use to be an athlete who as let him self go and am looking for a program to help me get back in shape and start some good habits.

    Thanks for all the comments so far.
    Personally I would prefer overall health care, not only specific TRT and nothing else.
    In post 09-05-2006, 01:48 PM
    colkurtz_spf
    there is pdf file with tests.
    For the tons of money he is spending they could have checked few more things in his blood even if they are not relevant to erection.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Concerned1963 View Post
    "They used to be cutting-edge. But, as Dr. John has indicated, the field has sort of passed them by."

    I have been concidering this program and have found this post very intresting. Could somebody please expand on the comment made above. What programs are more advanced then them?

    Colkurtz_spf, its been almost a year. Are you happy with the results this far and would you do it again? Is the program worth the price of admission?

    I am not a body builder just a guy who use to be an athlete who as let him self go and am looking for a program to help me get back in shape and start some good habits.

    Thanks for all the comments so far.

    They see themselves as leaders and standard-setters in the field of anti-aging medicine. Meanwhile, individual practitioners like Dr. John and Marianco are adding to the knowledge base and developing more refined methods which the Cenegenics practitioners tend not to pay much attention to.


    A good example of this is Dr. John's TRT protocol that combines testosterone and small doses of hCG. Cenegenics also uses hCG in TRT, but as a monotherapy in very large doses- which are unneccesary at the very least, and possibly harmful.


    Marianco, who I don't believe posts to this board, is a psychiatrist who is single-handedly developing a new medical specialty - neuroendocrinology - that studies the interplay between the endocrine, nervous and immune systems.

  18. Its not any specific groups or programs that are passing them by, but new and more advanced methods/drugs/dose and tweaks to already existing plans by individual doctors working together that are passing the cenegics people by.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Concerned1963 View Post
    "They used to be cutting-edge. But, as Dr. John has indicated, the field has sort of passed them by."

    I have been concidering this program and have found this post very intresting. Could somebody please expand on the comment made above. What programs are more advanced then them?

    Colkurtz_spf, its been almost a year. Are you happy with the results this far and would you do it again? Is the program worth the price of admission?

    I am not a body builder just a guy who use to be an athlete who as let him self go and am looking for a program to help me get back in shape and start some good habits.

    Thanks for all the comments so far.
    The results have been good, but I'm not happy with their panel choices, and I worry about their methods. My treatment has consisted of HCG only, and recently the addition of Arimidex to combat estrogen. The results from my last draw showed total test at 1400 with free at 425 and estradiol at 62. My protocol had been HCG 4000 IUs per week prior to the draw. I was using 10,000 IUs when the first panel was posted.

    My contract with Cenegenics is up the end of next month, and I have been in contact with Dr. John's office. Currently I'm weaning myself off HRT. I have reduced HCG to 500 IUs per week and will be completely finished by the end of this month. My next draw will be June 12. I'm curious to see how I'm going to feel. I feel great now, but I'm aware that will probably change.

    Fortunately I have never had ED. My problem was lack of energy and an increase in body fat. It wasn't until I had a bone density test that I discovered my Oteopedia. Before Cenegenics I used an online doc who prescribed testosterone cream and nothing else. I was on for a year. I started with a baseline total of 475 for total testosterone, but don't remember the free.

    I will keep the board posted with my progress.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    The results have been good, but I'm not happy with their panel choices, and I worry about their methods. My treatment has consisted of HCG only, and recently the addition of Arimidex to combat estrogen. The results from my last draw showed total test at 1400 with free at 425 and estradiol at 62. My protocol had been HCG 4000 IUs per week prior to the draw. I was using 10,000 IUs when the first panel was posted.

    My contract with Cenegenics is up the end of next month, and I have been in contact with Dr. John's office. Currently I'm weaning myself off HRT. I have reduced HCG to 500 IUs per week and will be completely finished by the end of this month. My next draw will be June 12. I'm curious to see how I'm going to feel. I feel great now, but I'm aware that will probably change.

    Fortunately I have never had ED. My problem was lack of energy and an increase in body fat. It wasn't until I had a bone density test that I discovered my Oteopedia. Before Cenegenics I used an online doc who prescribed testosterone cream and nothing else. I was on for a year. I started with a baseline total of 475 for total testosterone, but don't remember the free.

    I will keep the board posted with my progress.
    4000/week=571/day probably too much
    500/week=71/day probably not enough
    100/day supposedly is enough or slightly more.
    There was link to research floating around.

    You must have very good testis, tt=1400
    Your estrodial is high at 62
    but since your testosterone is 100% your own, possibly it is what you body needs.

    I would do (free, bioavailable and Total testosterone) test at Quest.
    Adjust HCG so you are at the top of range of either freeT or BioT, and the other is wherewer it falls.
  21. checking on cenegenics experience


    colkurtz,

    Have you been able to maintain your regimen with cenegenics? Any specifics you can share?

  22. Quote Originally Posted by randal View Post
    colkurtz,

    Have you been able to maintain your regimen with cenegenics? Any specifics you can share?
    I took an eight month break from HCG but didn't care for the way I felt. In December I started back on the HCG protocol at Cenegenics - this time at 2000 IUs per week. Six weeks later my draw revealed total testosterone at 957 with Fee at 233 and estradiol at 26. I'm also taking 1.5 mg of Arimidex per week, 25 mg of progesterone daily and 75 mg of DHEA. I feel great.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I took an eight month break from HCG but didn't care for the way I felt. In December I started back on the HCG protocol at Cenegenics - this time at 2000 IUs per week. Six weeks later my draw revealed total testosterone at 957 with Fee at 233 and estradiol at 26. I'm also taking 1.5 mg of Arimidex per week, 25 mg of progesterone daily and 75 mg of DHEA. I feel great.
    I think I am going to talk with my doc about doing 500-600 IUs of hCG EOD, and lose the T Cyp. It will be cheaper, easier and less meds. Colkurtz, do you have any suggestion as to whether I should taper off the T Cyp? I'm wondering if my T levels will remain fairly stable if I stop the T and triple my hCG level. I would imagine that my TT would remain in the range of 1,000. Right now, that is about the trough. Thanks in advance for any thoughts/advice.

  24. I don't know how much HCG you'll need to maintain your TT level. You may need a higher level to start. I did after coming off of the test cream. You'll probably need to titrate your dose based on your labs. I would draw every six weeks until you get it right. Arimidex may be needed eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I think I am going to talk with my doc about doing 500-600 IUs of hCG EOD, and lose the T Cyp. It will be cheaper, easier and less meds. Colkurtz, do you have any suggestion as to whether I should taper off the T Cyp? I'm wondering if my T levels will remain fairly stable if I stop the T and triple my hCG level. I would imagine that my TT would remain in the range of 1,000. Right now, that is about the trough. Thanks in advance for any thoughts/advice.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I don't know how much HCG you'll need to maintain your TT level. You may need a higher level to start. I did after coming off of the test cream. You'll probably need to titrate your dose based on your labs. I would draw every six weeks until you get it right. Arimidex may be needed eventually.
    I'm already on Arimidex. So, when you go of from T-cyp/hCG, to hCG monotherapy, you need to start off higher on the hCG? This is the sort of stuff I will just be figuring out with my doc; he doesnt seem to know, other than by trial and error. He'll invite me to propose a starting dose. Do you have any ideas? Maybe it should be 800 EOD to start. I recall you saying to Gator that ED is unnecessary given half life, right?

    Thanks dude!

  26. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I'm already on Arimidex. So, when you go of from T-cyp/hCG, to hCG monotherapy, you need to start off higher on the hCG? This is the sort of stuff I will just be figuring out with my doc; he doesnt seem to know, other than by trial and error. He'll invite me to propose a starting dose. Do you have any ideas? Maybe it should be 800 EOD to start. I recall you saying to Gator that ED is unnecessary given half life, right?

    Thanks dude!
    I started from a very different place. I had been on the cream alone for a year then stopped and crashed. My doc started me on 5000 IUS twice per week for the first two months. By no means is that my recommendation to you.

    I think you could start with 1000 IUs every other day. That would be around 3500 per week. Draw blood in 6 weeks and see what you get. If your levels are perfect than remain at that dose for another six weeks and test again. If E2 is too high increase your Arimidex. You may see that your levels continue to increase every six weeks on the same dose - I did. At that point you can start to trim your dose until you are at a comfortable level.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I started from a very different place. I had been on the cream alone for a year then stopped and crashed. My doc started me on 5000 IUS twice per week for the first two months. By no means is that my recommendation to you.

    I think you could start with 1000 IUs every other day. That would be around 3500 per week. Draw blood in 6 weeks and see what you get. If your levels are perfect than remain at that dose for another six weeks and test again. If E2 is too high increase your Arimidex. You may see that your levels continue to increase every six weeks on the same dose - I did. At that point you can start to trim your dose until you are at a comfortable level.
    Thanks bro. Remind me, is hCG more likely to aromatize, or is it merely dependent on how much TT is increased? I recall people saying that hCG is morely succeptible to aromatization. If that is so, I would imagine that I may run into some significant E2 issues. 100 mgs of T-cyp and 500 IUs/week of hCG sent my E2 from 20 to 82; my TT on Day 6 was 1182 (hCG injections were days 5 and 6, and T cyp on Day 7 of the preceding week), from 350. From this, I inferred that I am a strong responder to hCG. Would you agree?

    Thanks for all your help. I plan to discuss this with my doc in the next week.

    J

  28. Are you primary?? I am primary and was on solo 5000 units of HCG a week. It only managed to raise my TT to 375..
    I am on 100 mg of test cyp right now with no HCG.
    My TT went up to 900 and my free went to 245..

    If you are primary you will probaby drop to a number you were at before the test cyp therapy.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by biker340 View Post
    Are you primary?? I am primary and was on solo 5000 units of HCG a week. It only managed to raise my TT to 375..
    I am on 100 mg of test cyp right now with no HCG.
    My TT went up to 900 and my free went to 245..

    If you are primary you will probaby drop to a number you were at before the test cyp therapy.

    That's correct. HCG only works if the problem is not the testes. With me it's the hypothalmus and low LH.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I started from a very different place. I had been on the cream alone for a year then stopped and crashed. My doc started me on 5000 IUS twice per week for the first two months. By no means is that my recommendation to you.

    I think you could start with 1000 IUs every other day. That would be around 3500 per week. Draw blood in 6 weeks and see what you get. If your levels are perfect than remain at that dose for another six weeks and test again. If E2 is too high increase your Arimidex. You may see that your levels continue to increase every six weeks on the same dose - I did. At that point you can start to trim your dose until you are at a comfortable level.
    I like this post, looks like a good/practical way for someone deciding to find out if he is secondary.

    I have used your post as a reference here:
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/583167-post7.html
    ------------------------------------------------

    What is you definition of comfortable (testosterone) level?

    Going by numbers I saw floating around, I am thinking of

    FreeT=>160
    when one is using HCG only, plus Arnastrozole but no external testosterone.

    To find out that FreeT #
    one would use either Quest Diagnostics test
    Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
    or
    dr Shippen's chart using TotalT and SHBG values, post #41
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...oodtest-2.html
    or
    calculator:
    http://www.issam.ch/freetesto.htm
  

  
 

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