- 01-10-2006, 07:21 PM
I just had a complete physical done with blood work.
Everything came out great, except the total testosterone level which was 300.
I told the doctor that I have been having a problem with ED and I believe it was because to the low test. I asked to be put on some type of HRT.
He refused saying that they don't do anything until you get around 240, and threw a sample pack of Viagra at me.
Has anyone had any luck with OTC supps like Diesel Test, Blue Rhino, Activate, etc.. I don't feel that Viagra is the answer for low test..
- 01-10-2006, 07:28 PM
I would let him know that you want a better quality of life and that you will find another Doc if he doesn't want to work with you. Tell him that it's not your fault that the super freaks of bodybuilding abuse Test. Ask him if he prescribes pain killers and if he does, why doesn't the same stigma apply to those drugs as well (since they are abused on a grander scale). Then, I would point to all of the female HRT coffee cups, pens, posters and **** hanging all over his office and ask what the discrimination is all about. Ask him if he knows that 80% of his female clients who have been prescribed HRT drugs other than bio-identical hormones will be back for anti-depressants within a year. Ask him how he feels as a supposed care provider about ****ing up their lives with his lack of knowledge. Then I would slap down a pile of Pub-Med studies and tell him to study up and get back to you. If he still feels the same way...fire him because he obviously is retarded
- 01-10-2006, 08:44 PM
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SJA.....Your right on ....I love it when you get pissed!!!
01-11-2006, 09:12 AM
You really put some thought in to that reply.
01-11-2006, 09:53 AM
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maybe its an insurance thing rather then a doctor thing. My insurance is the same they won't cover it unless your blood work looks like it was from a woman . Mine was 290. I found a new doc, that isn't covered by my insurance and just pick up the bill myself, it sucks but it does make you feel better.
01-11-2006, 03:48 PM
Find another doc, he doesn't sound like he 's to concerned about your quality of life. Maybe an endocrinologist or urologist. I went to an endo with similar complaints; ED, lack of energy, low/no gains. My total test came back at 320. I'm now on 200mg/cyp a week that BC/BS is covering. They don't cover HCG though.
01-11-2006, 06:15 PM
Thanks for the replies, I will go back and talk to the doc and see if I can get a referall ( sucks, HMO ) to see a Urologist. I also have BC/BS so it was good to see that it's covered
I think it is one of those things that if you bitch hard enough they will do what you want.
How long have you been on the cyp, intv?? Have you noticed any strengh gains from it?? I have never had mine tested before and I am glad I did..
I always wondered why I can workout five days a week, have a great diet and gain nothing.
01-11-2006, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by SJA
01-12-2006, 01:51 AM
i'm on hrt .... i had a test lvl of 283 at the age of 22 after testicular cancer...... i'm on hrt with skyhigh test and i feel much better
i say trash the doctor he is an idiot and find one that will help u .... your going to need more blood work done then just total test
01-12-2006, 10:08 AM
- 6'2" 195 lbs.
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Originally Posted by SJA
01-12-2006, 04:53 PM
I've been on 8 weeks now. He initially put me on 200mg every 2 weeks, but my prescription is for 10ml (200mg/ml) a month, so I have plenty of cyp, and I thought 2 weeks was too long, so I went with 200mg/week EXCEPT for the last 2 weeks before I went in, so that the bloodwork would reflect test levels at the end of 2 weeks. Sure enough, total test was at 200! The nurse called and told me he wanted me to up it to 200mg/week. Hopefully the next time I'll have better numbers! I also mentioned testicular atrophy last checkup, so he prescribed me HCG, which is not covered by ins.Originally Posted by biker340
So far I feel much better, I'm up 8lbs, strength is up some, but I'm not pushing, I know it will take time. Libido is great, especially with HCG. Energy and motivation are up also. I didn't feel the test for the first 4-5 weeks at all, but knew it was coming.
01-12-2006, 05:03 PM
i suggest cutting your every 2 week dose in half and shooting once a week that is what i do... i'm shotting 120mg a week so far and getting my blood test done next week to see if it needs to go p higher... fi not HCG TIME!Originally Posted by intv
01-12-2006, 05:37 PM
I'm in the same boat as you. This past summer and into the fall I was just drained, so I went to have some blood work done. My Total Test. was 238, my doctor said well that is close to the range 240-800.
She said lets wait a month and see what happens, so I went back in after a month and my total test was 168. It fell even more.
So she recommended a Urologist, what a waste of time. I went to see him and he did a ultra scan of my testies and then a cat scan of my stomach (worried about cancer) everything check out fine. So all the Urologist did was throw some Viagra at me.
I said great this will help me get it up, but I'll have zero energy to perform. (I hate the lack of energy more than anything, I'm turning into a couch potato)
So I decided to take some M4OHN I had laying around, well a month later I went in, after only two weeks of M4OHN, and my total test was 398.
So is goes to show you that we need some outside help to boost your hormones. I just think some of us, have a tendency to get low Test. ( I remember growing up my dad was aways tired, maybe it runs in the family)
I did a lot of research and found that at my age mid 30s the average test was around 600. I'm not saying that is the norm, but I'm way off if that is the case.
Let me know if I can help with anything.
Ps. I'm still not taking anything and still fighting with my Dr. I go for a check up in a week, will update.
01-12-2006, 06:26 PM
What's with these doctors?? they think that just throwing Viagra at us will make us happy?? There is more to life than just sex, (spoken like a guy with low test, lol) There is quality of life issues.
I tried to search for M4OHN but it appears that it feel victim to the pro-hormone ban and is no longer available.
I also agree with you that low test runs in the family. My brother was diagnosed with low test a few years ago and was put on the patch.
I have to see the Doc next month so I may try the "squeeky wheel" method and bitch a lot..
01-12-2006, 07:17 PM
yea the prob with doctors is they don't know how to treat these problems..... very few doctors or even endos know how to treat it..... and if u got a problem they throw viagra at ya and said u will be fine.... as 4 giving u an ultrasound it's good to get one but not needed...and i did have test cancer.... all u needed was a blood test to figure out what was goign on just form that.... lh fsh total/free test, e2, dht is the basics.... then u can get into thyriod cortisol and so on.........Originally Posted by biker340
doctors don't understand the health risks with low test... from being tired to CANCER..... if u guys want a great place to find out about hrt and so on this is the place to go.....
01-12-2006, 08:00 PM
Well you are not alone and I would just get physical (lol) with your Doctor. But in all seriousness low test. levels point to so many things. Depression, lack of energy, lack of libido and they try to put you on a pill that treats each instead of treating the Test levels, which in return would fix all of the rest.
When I go next week I'm telling my Doctor I don't care, I want this fixed. So if that means HRT then so be it.
As far as the M4OHN, it is off the market, but I would recommend the Doctor's advice. I picked up some because it was suppose to be gentle, I didn't want big muscles, I just wanted some va voom back. It did help, which adds to my frustration with my Doctor.
BigRagu thanks for the link, I'm reading some stuff over there.
01-13-2006, 02:04 AM
I have a question about HRT. So when docs put you on it, is this a permanent thing or do you need to take a break from it to avoid similar side effects of PH's or AAS's?
It just doesn't seem healthy or logical for a doctor to prescribe 200mg Test a week for a year or years??? Am I missing something? Wouldn't this mess up your endocrine system similar to a yearlong cycle of AAS?
Also, add in HCG and it can spike your estrogen as well as stimulate test so how common are the gyno side effects of people that go on and off HRT?
01-13-2006, 03:19 AM
1)u don;t cycle hrt.. your body dosn't cycle.... think of this as giving yoru body back what it should haveOriginally Posted by 64bit
2)it will shut u down.... hcg will keep your guys working... and yes it is heatly conosidering it gets fine tuned to each person.. (with the right doctor)
3)hcg can spike e2 lvl that is where an anti will come into play IF needed.....
01-13-2006, 07:33 PM
ors436 how long did you take the m4 and any sides??
01-13-2006, 07:41 PM
I took it for two weeks. I just wanted to see if I felt better, which I did...
Remember I wasn't after big muscles, I was just trying to find out if I could spike my test levels. No sides at all!
It wasn't like I'm experimenting on myself, but you can't get answers, well, I had to try something.
As a note; My doctor mentioned a patch, not sure what she meant, but.. I'll know more next week.
01-13-2006, 09:46 PM
there is a test patch that u can get.... one that is allied to your balls the other is allied to your back..... u get to choose which u use... the one u put on your back is much larger though..... problem with transadermals is they have higher dht conversion then shots and most people always get a skin reaction to them... i took androgel 4 about 1month 1 week and my skin was so scaley it could of sanded a table with it......... another down side to them is i believe there more expensive then shotsOriginally Posted by osr436
01-23-2006, 09:46 PM
After you quit taking it(M4ohn) how long did it take for your test levels to drop again? Did the M4ohn also cause your estrogen level to go up any.Originally Posted by osr436
Would like to see the blood work on that stuff(I have a ton of it laying around)
06-14-2006, 12:49 AM
When placed on Androgel or Test Cyp alone, I went polycythemic in a big way (another term for too many red blood cells or high hematocrit). The answer was twofold: split the weekly dosage of 200mg into two biweekly injections of 100mg each ~ but this left my levels a little lower than the doc wanted, especially the free or unbound testosterone. His response to that was to add in 100mg of deca as a chaser. I now do 2 shots per week consisting of 1/2cc of test and 1/2cc of deca. This gets me into a healthy range with acceptable impact on hematocrit.
06-14-2006, 01:22 AM
Mohn is actually weak anti-estrogen.Originally Posted by okboy63
Here is some info with using ATD instead.
06-14-2006, 01:31 AM
200mg of test in one shot is almost always high for any1. the normal dose for some1 is 100mg once a week i'm currently on 120mg and it's pushing my test to the very top of the normal range. usually the 2 days b4 your shot u will take LOW dose hcg to give alittle boost those days. i would suggest talking to your doctor about going back on all test cyp but starting at a dose of 100mg and working your way up or down from there after u get some labs.Originally Posted by PSBigJoey
as for the deca it has NO place in hrt
06-14-2006, 08:35 AM
Ragu, if "normal range" means the reference ranges published by the labs, they do not reflect healthy values, only unsurprising ones. Total test should be up in the 800-1200ng/dl range as it is when a man is in his 20's. THAT'S healthy. As for the dosage required, that depends on how low you are and your size. My Total Test was under 200 when I first was tested. It takes over 200mg/week to get me up into reasonable country, and the Free Test was still low with that. Combining the two drugs gets both numbers into a healthy range. Ragu, what you need to do and how you need to do it is a bit different after you cross the andropause divide. As for HCG and the like, they do essentially nothing for me. I have symptoms of primary & secondary hypogonadism, and the extensive bloodwork that's been done on me annually for the last 4 years backs up the diagnosis and the treatment plan. In fact, my medical insurance picks this stuff up.....
06-14-2006, 08:46 AM
Again in the other forum the confusion seems to be between "normal", which means "unsurprising", and "healthy". Most men are not at healthy levels as they age, and the decline in values is reflected in most studies.Originally Posted by BigRagu
Think about it this way: "normal" for 80 is dead. Remember that the body was not originally expected to last into the 40's and 50's. Diseases and injuries wiped us out in huge numbers until just a few years ago, anthropologically speaking. The male body was designed to make it into the years when it could procreate and work hard enough to supply food and shelter for the next generation as it matured - then its job was done. How can it surprise us that many of our systems do not stay in order as we quadruple or quintuple our lifespan?
06-14-2006, 12:56 PM
- 5'7" 212 lbs.
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Originally Posted by PSBigJoey
As I read all these posts and hear about uninformed doctors, I can understand why they call it “practicing medicine”.
I scratch my head and say out loud “OH MY GOD!!” All this is on a bodybuilding board, maybe it should be on some kind of health for men board and someone would listen…(like a real Dr.)
On a bodybuilding board we all must be very careful and not say or recommend drugs or hormones that will help us with a better quality of life, for fear of being banned (and I do understand that) and the Feds knocking on our door trying to save the world from a 62 yr old bodybuilder who takes hormones.
In the past I have seen people (old guys) work out nearly every day. They workout very hard and get a lot of tired muscles and sweat a lot and not much more. Without the proper hormone balance its almost a waist of time...and they don’t have a lot of that left.
Then there is the guy who goes to the gym and stands around and just talks just to get away from the “old lady” who wont stop “*****in” at him for low sex drive and just watching TV all day.
As for me, my life has changed so much for the better, I feel guilty. HRT has given me a new life... Not just muscles. I got my body back to where I wanted by moving iron from Point A to Point B.
Big Joey I for one want to live past 80 just to piss off people that will probably be dead already! Wow! There I go! "Roid Rage" God help me!
06-14-2006, 02:10 PM
Hey guys. I am going to move this to our new HRT Forum. This is very good stuff. I appreciate you experienced guys sharing and welcome you do so frequently. Thanks.
06-14-2006, 04:30 PM
the normal for a male in his 20's depends on the range that the lab uses. the lab i used was 300-1000 is where im at. i'm my test lvls are in the 700s the day b4 my shot and i only take 120 a week 200mg is insane. i would be like 2x the upper normOriginally Posted by PSBigJoey
how low u are to begin with dosn't determine how much test yoru going to need. once u start hrt yoru body shuts down and u have to supplement it.
as for the free test. on 120mg my free test is over the normal range (i must have low shbg or something)
i dont see how your using deca to boost test... deca is not test and will not convert to test in the body. there 2 totally different hormones. i have not see one legit hrt clinic perscribe deca to patients. i believe they only give that to aids wasting patients
and im no small guy 6'1 232 currently and 120 works just fine... it is time to get labs and see if it does need to be adjusted (it's possible)... i will keep u posted
mabe multi shots might be better for u then just 1 shot.. there are people that take 2 shots a week and 3 in smaller doses and it works for them
06-19-2006, 06:04 PM
I read if you get prescribed HRT that you run the chance of not being able to have kids when you're older.
Someone want to elaborate on that?
06-19-2006, 06:37 PM
If your testosterone levels are low, chances are you're having fertility problems already. HRT may further supress them and exacerbate an already existing condition.Originally Posted by jjm
If your levels are low, but you're putting out good sperm counts with good motility, etc and you need to go on HRT, consider the sperm bank option. But I suspect that low testosterone has already compromised your ability to have (more) kids.
06-22-2006, 10:45 AM
As a man in his 20's with low test I sympathize with you..
Most doctors were afraid to do anything for me because I was so young..Test level was at 307.I was 25 when I went to the doc..I am supposed to be at the highest levels of my life..if my highest level is 307..damn..mid life crisis here I come. I went to the doctor complaining of loss of interest in sex...Went 3 months without having sex with my girlfriend..just didnt want it..
He finally agreed to give me a trial run of androgel..Which my insurance paid for..Sad thing is..My insurance ran out and since I have some incurable health problems..no one will insure me..so... No more test
on the bright side..There are many "clinics" on the net that would be more than willing to treat you...
I hope everything works out..
06-22-2006, 09:19 PM
I happen to be the group administrator for our company's health insurance plan. My explicit understanding is that with a true group policy, the health status of an individual is NOT a limiting factor. It is NOT CONSIDERED when joining the group. We specifically checked this because a prospective employee has a chronic condition that renders him uninsurable with respect to an individual policy.Originally Posted by Ripw4
Of course this is California and the laws may allow other policy practices where you are - but it's worth investigating. Good luck!
06-29-2006, 03:07 PM
Serum T 490 reference range 241 - 827 ng/dL
Free T 9.8 reference range 7.2 - 24.0 pg/mL
other issues in life/health.
Dr. understands where I'm coming from but has no experience in HRT other than "really" low T levels in younger males.
Doesn't know anyone in the southwest Denver area or Denver at all for that matter that she can refer me to. Is willing but just isn't there in her practice at this time.
looking at the different sites that have been posted but if anyone lives in the Denver area and could send me a name or two it would be very much appreciated.
In the mean time I will be making a lot of useless calls to the Endo's etc in my area asking those target questions that have been on the site.
06-29-2006, 03:18 PM
I know I shouldn't really be on this topic, but what are the side effects of HRT? I am there has to be something wrong about it, otherwise Low-Test wouldnt be such a problem.
Is low-test permanent?
06-29-2006, 03:23 PM
06-29-2006, 05:18 PM
You think you guys got it bad right now??? I just got some blood work back and had a total count 88...****** 88!!! so now my doc's sending me to a endocrinologist.
06-29-2006, 05:55 PM
I always get last post at the end of page..Originally Posted by PROD1GY
BTW, do you guys all have LT naturally?
07-03-2006, 03:50 PM
Look up Dr. Ross in Cheyenne,WY (90 miles N. of Denver). He's been a great help to me and knows what he's doing. PM me if you need any more info.Originally Posted by glg
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