- 06-14-2006, 07:35 AM
Ragu, if "normal range" means the reference ranges published by the labs, they do not reflect healthy values, only unsurprising ones. Total test should be up in the 800-1200ng/dl range as it is when a man is in his 20's. THAT'S healthy. As for the dosage required, that depends on how low you are and your size. My Total Test was under 200 when I first was tested. It takes over 200mg/week to get me up into reasonable country, and the Free Test was still low with that. Combining the two drugs gets both numbers into a healthy range. Ragu, what you need to do and how you need to do it is a bit different after you cross the andropause divide. As for HCG and the like, they do essentially nothing for me. I have symptoms of primary & secondary hypogonadism, and the extensive bloodwork that's been done on me annually for the last 4 years backs up the diagnosis and the treatment plan. In fact, my medical insurance picks this stuff up.....
- 06-14-2006, 07:46 AM
Originally Posted by BigRagu
Think about it this way: "normal" for 80 is dead. Remember that the body was not originally expected to last into the 40's and 50's. Diseases and injuries wiped us out in huge numbers until just a few years ago, anthropologically speaking. The male body was designed to make it into the years when it could procreate and work hard enough to supply food and shelter for the next generation as it matured - then its job was done. How can it surprise us that many of our systems do not stay in order as we quadruple or quintuple our lifespan?
06-14-2006, 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by PSBigJoey
As I read all these posts and hear about uninformed doctors, I can understand why they call it “practicing medicine”.
I scratch my head and say out loud “OH MY GOD!!” All this is on a bodybuilding board, maybe it should be on some kind of health for men board and someone would listen…(like a real Dr.)
On a bodybuilding board we all must be very careful and not say or recommend drugs or hormones that will help us with a better quality of life, for fear of being banned (and I do understand that) and the Feds knocking on our door trying to save the world from a 62 yr old bodybuilder who takes hormones.
In the past I have seen people (old guys) work out nearly every day. They workout very hard and get a lot of tired muscles and sweat a lot and not much more. Without the proper hormone balance its almost a waist of time...and they don’t have a lot of that left.
Then there is the guy who goes to the gym and stands around and just talks just to get away from the “old lady” who wont stop “*****in” at him for low sex drive and just watching TV all day.
As for me, my life has changed so much for the better, I feel guilty. HRT has given me a new life... Not just muscles. I got my body back to where I wanted by moving iron from Point A to Point B.
Big Joey I for one want to live past 80 just to piss off people that will probably be dead already! Wow! There I go! "Roid Rage" God help me!
06-14-2006, 01:10 PM
Hey guys. I am going to move this to our new HRT Forum. This is very good stuff. I appreciate you experienced guys sharing and welcome you do so frequently. Thanks.
06-14-2006, 03:30 PM
the normal for a male in his 20's depends on the range that the lab uses. the lab i used was 300-1000 is where im at. i'm my test lvls are in the 700s the day b4 my shot and i only take 120 a week 200mg is insane. i would be like 2x the upper normOriginally Posted by PSBigJoey
how low u are to begin with dosn't determine how much test yoru going to need. once u start hrt yoru body shuts down and u have to supplement it.
as for the free test. on 120mg my free test is over the normal range (i must have low shbg or something)
i dont see how your using deca to boost test... deca is not test and will not convert to test in the body. there 2 totally different hormones. i have not see one legit hrt clinic perscribe deca to patients. i believe they only give that to aids wasting patients
and im no small guy 6'1 232 currently and 120 works just fine... it is time to get labs and see if it does need to be adjusted (it's possible)... i will keep u posted
mabe multi shots might be better for u then just 1 shot.. there are people that take 2 shots a week and 3 in smaller doses and it works for them
06-19-2006, 05:04 PM
I read if you get prescribed HRT that you run the chance of not being able to have kids when you're older.
Someone want to elaborate on that?
06-19-2006, 05:37 PM
If your testosterone levels are low, chances are you're having fertility problems already. HRT may further supress them and exacerbate an already existing condition.Originally Posted by jjm
If your levels are low, but you're putting out good sperm counts with good motility, etc and you need to go on HRT, consider the sperm bank option. But I suspect that low testosterone has already compromised your ability to have (more) kids.
06-22-2006, 09:45 AM
As a man in his 20's with low test I sympathize with you..
Most doctors were afraid to do anything for me because I was so young..Test level was at 307.I was 25 when I went to the doc..I am supposed to be at the highest levels of my life..if my highest level is 307..damn..mid life crisis here I come. I went to the doctor complaining of loss of interest in sex...Went 3 months without having sex with my girlfriend..just didnt want it..
He finally agreed to give me a trial run of androgel..Which my insurance paid for..Sad thing is..My insurance ran out and since I have some incurable health problems..no one will insure me..so... No more test
on the bright side..There are many "clinics" on the net that would be more than willing to treat you...
I hope everything works out..
06-22-2006, 08:19 PM
I happen to be the group administrator for our company's health insurance plan. My explicit understanding is that with a true group policy, the health status of an individual is NOT a limiting factor. It is NOT CONSIDERED when joining the group. We specifically checked this because a prospective employee has a chronic condition that renders him uninsurable with respect to an individual policy.Originally Posted by Ripw4
Of course this is California and the laws may allow other policy practices where you are - but it's worth investigating. Good luck!
06-29-2006, 02:07 PM
Serum T 490 reference range 241 - 827 ng/dL
Free T 9.8 reference range 7.2 - 24.0 pg/mL
other issues in life/health.
Dr. understands where I'm coming from but has no experience in HRT other than "really" low T levels in younger males.
Doesn't know anyone in the southwest Denver area or Denver at all for that matter that she can refer me to. Is willing but just isn't there in her practice at this time.
looking at the different sites that have been posted but if anyone lives in the Denver area and could send me a name or two it would be very much appreciated.
In the mean time I will be making a lot of useless calls to the Endo's etc in my area asking those target questions that have been on the site.
06-29-2006, 02:18 PM
I know I shouldn't really be on this topic, but what are the side effects of HRT? I am there has to be something wrong about it, otherwise Low-Test wouldnt be such a problem.
Is low-test permanent?
06-29-2006, 02:23 PM
06-29-2006, 04:18 PM
You think you guys got it bad right now??? I just got some blood work back and had a total count 88...****** 88!!! so now my doc's sending me to a endocrinologist.
06-29-2006, 04:55 PM
I always get last post at the end of page..Originally Posted by PROD1GY
BTW, do you guys all have LT naturally?
07-03-2006, 02:50 PM
Look up Dr. Ross in Cheyenne,WY (90 miles N. of Denver). He's been a great help to me and knows what he's doing. PM me if you need any more info.Originally Posted by glg
07-03-2006, 04:49 PM
On our Prime Fitness Instruction Team site there are some articles - one, "Testosterone, How Low Are You?" is the standard 10-question set dealing with low levels WITH MEDICAL CITATIONS at the bottom. If you print it, fill it out, and take it to your doc - he'll have some references he can follow up on.Originally Posted by glg
08-12-2006, 09:11 PM
I did not read the whole thread I have heard this about Dr.'s not treating men with low T levels like this. And am putting in here a cut & paste on how to find a good Dr.
Finding a trustworthy competent male hormone doctor is probably the most important step toward treating hypogonadism. Do take the time and effort to find a good one. You will not be saving time by merely going with someone your doc refers, unless you qualify him/her as being competent and experienced. Many group members have spent years with bad treatment, and finding a doc is probably the single biggest reason people come to this group.
IMO you want a doc who treats male hormone issues as a regular part of his/her practice. Your doc will probably suggest an endocrinologist or urologist, but many don’t know male hormone therapy, or are even philosophically opposed to it. I suggest you research & find a specialist yourself. Here are some tips:
For compiling a list of "SUSPECTS" near you, try:
Back trace docs from pharmacies that sell them male hormone products:
College Pharmacy (Colorado Springs, CO)
College Pharmacy - Home
click "Find a Health Care Provider". There's a form to fill out. Submit the form & they'll e-mail a list of docs nearest you. In the “I would like to find a provider who specializes in:” I suggest choosing “Pellet Implants”; you might not want them but those docs know most other therapies too.
Bartor Pharmical (Rye NY) They manufacture testosterone pellets (docs who do pellets also know most other therapies). Call 914-967-4219 and ask if they can recommend three docs near you.
Women’s International Pharmacy (Madison, Wisconsin
Women's International Pharmacy - Request Doctor Referral
Kronos Compounding Pharmacy (Las Vegas, NV) has a list of docs:
ApothéCure (Dallas, TX)
ApotheCure - Web Form
DOCTOR SEARCH. NOTE: THERE MAY BE PLENTY OF “OLD SCHOOL” OR OTHERWISE INCOMPETENT DOCS ON THESE LISTS. SCREENING PRIOR TO THE FIRST APPOINTMENT IS STILL ESSENTIAL.
Docs who have shown an interest in treating male hypogonadism can be found at:
National Testosterone Tune-Up
Life Extension Foundation, List of Innovative Doctors:
Life Extension Foundation: Directory Of Innovative Doctors
American College for Advancement in Medicine (ACAM). Look for docs with “HRT” listed in their practice codes.
ACAM: Find A Doctor
There’s an AACE docs search page at:
In theory they would use the AACE Hypogonadisn Guidelines,
but are still too “old school”.Confirm they treat hypogonadism prior to a visit.
To pre-qualify and select the right doc, call him or his staff and ask: how many men he/she treats for hypogonadism, if he/she offers hCG therapy in addition to TRT, if he/she uses Arimidex to keep E2 down, and checks for Primary or Secondary Hypogonadism.
You have time to ask the doc some pre-screening questions (probably through his/her staff). Like: What does he think about the AACE hypogonadism guidelines? (American Association Of Clinical Endocrinologists Medical Guidelines For Clinical Practice For The Evaluation And Treatment Of Hypogonadism
In Adult Male Patients—2002 Update, available in the Files section here. How many hypogonadism patients does he treat? Does he ever use hCG treatment? Does he regularly test for estrogens, specifically estradiol? Does he ever prescribed anything to keep estradiol down? Does he use a stimulation test to determine hypogonandism is primary or secondary? Does he ever use hormone pellet implants?
Did your doc mention that TRT like Androgel can make you sterile? I'm assuming your marriage plans might include having children. If so, a different treatment than testosterone supplementation would be needed. It would involve taking a hormone that stimulates the body's ability to make testosterone.
IMO, a complete range of initial tests should be done, way above and beyond the total testosterone levels you had tested. An hCG stimulation test (or similar) should be done to see if your body can respond to stimulation.
This was made by Bruce at the Yahoo Hypogonadism2 group.
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