Topical vs Injections and effects of E2 and aromtase

[Umberto]

I have been trying to find a definitive answer and can't seem to find conclusive evidence.

Is estradiol conversion less on topical Testosterone vs injections.

My thinking is the increase of DHT conversion via 5AR in the skin would antagonize the aromatase enzyme and result in less overall E2 conversion versus injected Testosterone. This would be seem to be particularly true in areas of skin with less subcutaneous fat underneath like the scrotum and bicep crease.

Has anyone seen reduced E2 levels for similar Total T levels in your blood work versus injection?

I tend to get highish E2 conversion and low DHT conversion for high normal levels of Total T when I do shots.
I'd like to see if topical may be a good option.

My DHT levels remain low and I want the benefits of a robust DHT level:
Libido and alpha feeling.

 

[Nac]

I remember Crisler warning both conversions can be greater using topical (aromatase is located in adipose tissue, amongst other places). But surely this is not the be all and end all of a comparison.

If DHT is your concern, why not stick with shots and consider supplemental dhea? Ive personally seen great success with a dhea topical. I didnt get measures, but all the signs otherwise of majorly increased dht.

 

[Umberto]

Nac, please tell me about your experience with topical DHEA.
I was under the impression that dhea had to convert to T first before DHT, therefore not solving my DHT issue.
What benefits did you see vs just doing shots alone?
Any thoughts?

 

[Nac]

Nac, please tell me about your experience with topical DHEA.
I was under the impression that dhea had to convert to T first before DHT, therefore not solving my DHT issue.
What benefits did you see vs just doing shots alone?
Any thoughts?

I wish I had a relevant study that demonstrated one way or the other to what degree topical dhea converted to dht. I dont. None of the studies Ive seen adequately fit our parameters.

Is it possible that there is some degree of conversion as the compound traverses the epidermal layers?

Its been awhile since I trialled topical dhea whilst on trt (100mg enanthate). All I remember was a marked increase in alpha-feelz within a couple hours of successive applications, general awesomeness, and a significant outbreak of chest/shoulder/bacne.

And no bloods unfortunately. So this is all highly unscientific. Is it possible my experience was the result of some kind of extra estrogenic activity? If it was, it was unlike anything estrogenic Ive experienced prior or since.

So, my only suggestion would be to consider trialling it yourself and see how you react. At the end of the day, as long as we remain within healthy parameters it are those end-point effects we care about anyway (and not blood hormonal measures). My subjective response to the compound seems on the face of it just what youre looking for. And I know other members swear by oral dhea for similiar end-point effects.

 

[Nac]

This is an interesting article too:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/What_Hormones_Does_DHEA_Change.aspx

It notes one study in particular where an oral dhea dose of 400mg was given (which is huge). Interestingly, even though plasma dhea-s predictably went through the roof, total test didnt increase...yet DHT increased significantly. Like, a 5-fold increase. Thats huge.

How this occurred, I dunno. Again, the study parameters are hardly ideal for us, so Im making some leaps, and assuming a smaller dhea topical application could achieve similiar results (I applied 200mg per day).

 

[Umberto]

Thanks for the great info.
On shots I tend to get high T and free T levels with high E2 as well. Bloating and high BP follow. My DHT stays low.
This is great for strength and muscle building but the mental and libido benefits are just not there. That's the effect I am going for.
The T to DHT conversion seems likely in the skin through the dermal layers.

Currently I have been prescribed a combo of injections (100 mg weekly) and compounded cream.

As of two days I am liking the mental effect of the topical. Mentally I feel much more resilient with moments of alpha feeling. Libido seems to have upticked as well.

I'm curious to see the long term results.

As a side note I was able to get my total T into the mid 400s naturally through vitamin supplementation (was vitamin d deficient) and fat loss despite having been in the mids 200s off trt for the last 6 years. This was encouraging but DHT never budged so the perceived benefit was nil. I added epiandrosterone to some degree of alpha feeling and slight libido increase although it down regulated my T production. It was unsustainable.

My vitamin regiment included vitamin d, b12, zinc and magnesium.

I think most of my low T symptoms have to do with both low shbg and low dht conversion. At my low T "normal" my E2 was normal. It seems to me my body will produce T until my E2 reached normal and then down regulate. The problem is seems is normal E levels are my hormonal barometer despite low T. The preferential conversion to E as opposed to dht seems to be the problem.

 

[Nac]

Theres alot going on there man, and as a mere forum-bro most of the finer details are out of my league.

Sounds like you may have found success with the cream. Hopefully that will kill a few birds for you.

It is probably relevant that I should mention the dhea product I used also contained pregnenolone. Youll find alot of guys who are influenced by John Crisler's trt philosophies use dhea and pregnenolone as adjuncts to their test. They both seem to fit the bill for what youre looking for. Id recommend doing some delving into their use in the trt context.

 

[chemjr]

My DHT levels remain low and I want the benefits of a robust DHT level:
Libido and alpha feeling.

Honestly I know how you feel. I actually have been using some of my old cream to help with that feeling so I def there is something to everything you said. And if sub q makes less than im then I would think trans would be even better? Or same? Also I think theres a study (can't recall if it's sate side or not, was at least a few month ago) that said if the patient is able to use topicals, bc some individuals it won't penetrate well, it is better for e2 and dht levels for the male. Makes me wonder if they'll start prescibing cream to trans/wtvr for their "change" instead of sub q. Seems to be the better option if skin will take.