6 weeks into TRT, labs show Test is lower?
- 04-15-2013, 10:24 AM
6 weeks into TRT, labs show Test is lower?
I'm just over 6 weeks into TRT via Axiron (2 pumps a day). My total testosterone shows lower than before I started? Can anyone shed some light on this?
Total Test = 291 (241-827)
T4 = 7.4 (4.5-12.0)
TSH RFLX = 2.61 (0.40-4.50)
LH = 5.4 (1.5-9)
FSH = 5.2 (2.0-9.2)
Estradiol = 13 (8.0-35)
Progesterone <10 (<10-11)
Prolactin = 4.8 (3-18)
Estrone = 64 (12-72)
SHBG = 17.0 (16.5-55.9)
Albumin = 4.8 (3.6-5.1)
6 weeks later:
Total Test = 234 (348-1197)
LH = <0.2 (1.7-8.6)
FSH = 0.5 (1.5-12.4)
Estradiol = 19.8 (7.6-42.6)
SHBG = 14.8 (16.5-55.9)
Albumin = 4.3 (3.5-5.5)
- 04-15-2013, 10:32 AM
with any of the topicals, it varies. 2 pumps is the starting dose and works if you happen to have very good absorption. I know a few people using 4 pumps a day of it.
- 04-15-2013, 04:04 PM
Switch to shots or address thyroid or adrenal issues.
When was test taken in relationship to the application?I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
04-15-2013, 06:03 PM
04-15-2013, 09:19 PM
This is unfortunately how topicals work. They drop you to zero, then you start to build up again....and the "normal starting dosage" is usually barely enough to get you back to your initial low #....say you had 290, you'll probably get to 275-350 with the standard dosage of androgel/axiron, whatever brand. You need to bump to 3, then to 4 etc...or with androgel bump to 7.5 then to 10 etc....until you get to your desired #. The 5g of androgel and the 2 pumps of axiron are only enough to get you to your "low #" you began at...these are not high dosages you are taking, the introductory dosing. Its enough to get you to 300's....you want 700's? double what you are taking now. This is how it works, you have to put in your time before you get to the desired test #....they won't put you on 10g of androgel or 4 pumps of axiron straightaway....they just aren't "cool like that'
04-15-2013, 09:22 PM
I think axiron sucks BTW, I prefer androgel. I had EXACTLY the same # as you....and 1.5 months on 2.5g then 5g androgel (one month each) got me to 360. Needless to say I was disappointed at that point, but at least it was greater than my starting #. Less than is not really acceptable, even with "so-so" absorption....
04-15-2013, 09:27 PM
Screw the gels they are expensive and they suck. Get injectable test cypionate and you will be feeling great in a few weeks. Do whatever you need to get to 200 mg week of cyp. That should have your test levels around 1100.
04-16-2013, 07:09 AM
200/week isn't trt, it's a mini cycle. Also, there's absolutely no way to predict how an individual is going to respond to a given dose. Numerous reports of skinny guys needing 150+ mg's/week to get them in a therapeutic range, and also 300 lb bb'ers who respond to 50 mg/week.Originally Posted by joeblow1
04-16-2013, 10:23 AM
I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
04-16-2013, 01:56 PM
04-16-2013, 03:05 PM
04-16-2013, 03:10 PM
04-16-2013, 03:14 PM
70% of the total weight is lost in conversion of Cyp esther. Keep that in mind. Also, going to a family doctor will guarantee that you get crappy dosing, maybe 100mg/wk at best. Do it right. Go to people with experience in the field such as a men's clinic and you'll easily get 200mg/wk.
04-16-2013, 03:20 PM
anything that high (200+) will have you with high RBC and hematocrit within a few months. Maybe not dangerously high, but over top of normal scale.
04-16-2013, 03:30 PM
04-16-2013, 03:41 PM
200mg EW is ludicrous. You can get to 700-900 on damn gels, I see no reason why you can't get there with 100mg (or less) of cyp. Talk about overkill....that being said there are going to be individual cases where somebody requires 150-200mg per week for whatever reasons in order to get to high normal...but I see that being few and far between to be honest.
04-16-2013, 03:43 PM
04-16-2013, 03:51 PM
I respect you man but there is plenty of real life TRT patients getting this much or more in some cases.
04-16-2013, 04:02 PM
How many of you have even had 200-300mg of test per week anyways? It's mild at best. Might get a few measily pounds of water from it.
04-16-2013, 04:57 PM
04-16-2013, 05:00 PM
That's cool, you can call BS. In my experience, I've came across very few people NEEDING more than 100-125/week to put them in a therapeutic range. Wanting 150/250 a week, and needing that much to put you therapeutic are 2 completely different things.Originally Posted by fueledpassion
I've encountered more guys trying to job their doc into prescribing more than they need, to do blasts or whatever, by manipulating their levels before testing than guys needing that much to make them feel better. Dam bro, just check out the posts on this forum!
Now, the anti aging clinics are a whole different ball game. They'll prescribe you that much so they can give you ai's or whatever. The bottom line at the anti aging clinic is $$$
With that much test come e2 issues for most men, plain and simple.
Finally, I want to qualify all of this by saying I know dose response is individual, but the vast majority of guys don't need 200/week to put them therapeutic.
Using myself as an example, I felt like crap at 150/week. T, e2, hgb and hct were all sky high. Now, 50 every 4 days...
04-16-2013, 05:23 PM
04-16-2013, 07:55 PM
04-16-2013, 09:16 PM
04-17-2013, 08:28 AM
This may all be true but I have yet to experience a 100-150mg dose that I could even recognize in my system. Simply put, the low TRT or therapeutic dose doesn't accomplish anything with me except holding my natural system back from doing its job, lol. I'd rather have 500-600 T levels running endogenous remedies than to have 700-900 T levels feeling shut down and like a pile of crap.
And thats what I have told the doctor that wanted to put me on TRT @ 200mg/wk. I told her either give me Clomid/HCG or make it worthwhile to me to run TRT. 200mg isn't worthwhile. It's that point in the road that is too much to be healthy and yet not enough to make gains or feel good. Either endogenous remedies, or 300+ is what I'm looking for.
04-17-2013, 08:34 AM
04-17-2013, 08:36 AM
I look at it the opposite way: you body is so used to supraphysiological T levels, it wouldn't know a therapeutic range if it tripped over it.
And low dose trt holding your natural system back from doing it's job is nonsense...
04-17-2013, 08:36 AM
04-17-2013, 10:54 AM
I believe I need to shed more light on my situation so that you guys can understand what I meant by that statement. I came off a cycle a long while ago and went to the clinic to get endogenous medication such as HCG or Clomid for temporary use. The clinic insisted on me taking TRT since I was "eligible" for it. I chose not to. My thought was to try and get my natural HPTA working again, not placing a band-aid over it w/ TRT. They wouldn't provide me with much any other option except TRT. So I left. Why did I do that? It's simple. I wanted to have a prescription grade PCT to recover my function, not further suppress it.
So yes, it would have clearly kept me shut down if I decided to go with TRT instead. See my point?
04-17-2013, 10:59 AM
You guys are right about the TRT dosing. But 200 is still common place in the area I live in (regardless what you think or know about that dosing protocol). If an entire group of medical professionals are willing to do it then they probably have some validity to their reasoning. And to add to that, I just look at others to be a bit prideful in their position who call those professionals ignorant, a joke, or othewise incompetent in this field of study.
That's the problem with overly scientific forums such as this one. Everyone is so sure and so prideful in their own stance that "a" truth of the matter ends up getting missed or otherwise ignored.
04-17-2013, 11:05 AM
04-17-2013, 11:10 AM
Not what I said at all. My point is, if your "natural system" was doing it's job you wouldn't need trt. 2nd point is that your body is so used to the T levels on >250 that of course you wouldn't feel good at 100. That is why you're on trt correct, to feel better? Trying to follow your logic is getting a little difficult. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it's starting to sound like previous steroid use is at the heart of your problem.Originally Posted by fueledpassion
04-17-2013, 11:14 AM
I'm sorry, I don't consider the anti aging community an "entire group of medical professionals." I consider them a small vocal minority who's after one thing: $$$Originally Posted by fueledpassion
I go to an endo who's a published researcher in trt. I'll listen to his advice over the anti aging clinics.
And if 200 is a standard trt dose where you live, I would venture to guess there's a lot of anti aging clinics in your area...
04-17-2013, 12:27 PM
04-17-2013, 12:29 PM
04-17-2013, 12:42 PM
04-17-2013, 12:47 PM
Lord, this is a perfect example of the point I was trying to make. They're not in your best interest, but their wallets...Originally Posted by EasyEJL
04-17-2013, 01:00 PM
04-17-2013, 01:03 PM
The starting dose is often very cautious on transdermals, if it were me I would at least consider trying a dosage increase before giving up on the idea completely.
I don't understand the hate for gels... some of the best Drs recommend them..... also, more is not always more when it comes to test.
I've achieved peak levels in excess of 1000 and can comfortably keep a nice 700 on testogel (aka androgel), I just don't get why so few are willing to give them a fair chance. Seems like everyone on these types of forums just wants to score a script for T at 250 inject a week, which is not really TRT dosage.
04-17-2013, 01:21 PM
If test levels were lower Im surprised they didn't administer a thyroid panel to check your blood levels for all adrenal hormone activity.
Did they prescribe to you an anti-estrogen...typically they recommend something mild to start like 10mg of tamoxifen.
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