Chronic Fatigue Question (detailed labs posted)

Page 2 of 2 First 12

  1. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post
    There are REALLY SMART PPL on forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?forums/detox-methylation-b12-glutathione-chelation.6/[/url]
    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Yes,
    I was studying methylation way back almost 8 years ago. People thought I was some quack with far out ideas and how healing the gut, balancing liver pathways was to get people better. Now I am in working my way up to the top working with some of the biggest names in CFS, FM, neuology, and detoxification specialist. I am one of co founders of MTHFRsupport group on facebook.
    I just ordered a 23 and Me genome test to look at methylation defects and hemochromatosis.

    I'll also probably do a Nutreval from Genova to look at nutritional status (status of methylation related nutrients). I may wait at least a month or two though to let my thyroid settle down after the reduced Cytomel dosage.
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Ad Fortitudo View Post
    Update:

    My endocrinologist agrees that I'm a bit hyperthyroid at this point and he wants to decrease my Cytomel down to 10 mcg.

    He said my Total Test was "over the top" but said that since test can have anti-inflammatory properties, that I shouldn't worry about it, or work to lower it.

    Concerning ferritin: He thinks it's a little high, but hasn't recommended that I try to lower it yet. I'm still wondering if a blood donation might help things.

    Concerning Rt3: He thinks this is a signal on an underlying inflammatory process (he's been saying this for a while), though what confuses me is that my inflammation biomarkers (HS-CRP, autoimmune tests, sed rate) are all low or negative.

    Concerning cortisol: He didn't think it was a problem. I was disapointed by this. Over the last few days, I've done some reading over at Jack Kruse's site, and Dr. Kruse claims that high cortisol and high ACTH can be the primary driver of a RT3 problem. If that's the case, we might be missing something.... lowering my cortisol (reducing stress?) might fix my T4 -> T3 conversion problem.

    As for the fatigue generally, he thinks inflammation is driving it.

    Thoughts?
    What I have been saying all along about inflammation ?......
    Probably find your answer in a metametrix Gi effect stool test which you can get off line as I suggest my clients do..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    What I have been saying all along about inflammation ?......
    Probably find your answer in a metametrix Gi effect stool test which you can get off line as I suggest my clients do..
    Matrix, do you prefer the Metametrix GI stool test over the Genova CDSA 2.0 w/Parasitology-Genova KIT Coprennsive stool analysis? (I'm not sure that it'll matter in a few months. Genova and Metametrix are merging .... they'll probably start offering one set of test for these sorts of things).
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Ad Fortitudo

    Matrix, do you prefer the Metametrix GI stool test over the Genova CDSA 2.0 w/Parasitology-Genova KIT Coprennsive stool analysis? (I'm not sure that it'll matter in a few months. Genova and Metametrix are merging .... they'll probably start offering one set of test for these sorts of things).
    Metametrix gi effects stool test is dna analysis and gold standard in testing Genova is not as accurate for.some reason. Be a year or so till you see changes in the company. I am in contact with our rep each month from genova to hear of.updates.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Ad Fortitudo View Post
    Hey Anabolic Minds,


    I'm hoping that I might be able to crowd-source some advice.


    I've been dealing with fatigue for the better part of 10 years now and in the last year it's become significantly worse.


    After doing a lot of reading here at Anabolic Minds (and some similar forums) and I've started approaching this problem with hard data (getting labs, measuring everything, etc).


    I've also been working with a doctor (an endocrinologist who is discussed here and on similar forums) for the last 8 months and have lots of lab work at this point.






    HISTORY:


    Last 10 years:
    - Fatigue


    Past year:
    - Extreme fatigue
    - Cold hands and feet
    - "Brain fog"/difficulty concentrating
    - Low libido
    - Low motivation
    - Memory loss (can't remember names, words, etc)




    The endocrinologist I'm working with diagnosed me with hypothyroidism (specifically, low free T3 and low Ft4)


    Went on 100 mcg T4. 2 months later had symptoms of hyperthyroid (very low TSH, insomnia, etc). We ran labs and found that I also had extremely high reverse T3 (RT3), though FT3 hadn't moved much.


    Endocrinologist diagnosed me with T4 to T3 conversion problem, and switched me to 25mcg of Cytomel (T3 medication).


    Since then, my fatigue has not improved. Did a sleep study and was prescribed Nuvigil (not by my endocrinologist; a separate sleep doctor prescribed the Nuvigil).


    Just ran new labs and several things are abnormal (very high Test, SHBG).






    SUPPLEMENTS:
    Iodine (lugols) 12 mg
    Selenium 200 mcg
    Vitamin C 1000 mg
    Krill Oil 600 mg-----------------------------stop that
    B-complex 100 mg
    Zinc 50 mg
    Copper 2 mg
    Creatine 5 g
    Melatonin 3 mg






    CURRENT MEDICATIONS
    Cytomel 25 mcg
    Nuvigil 100 mg (I just cut the pill down because I was getting jittery at 150 mg)---------hopefully we will wean you out of this.






    LABS (these are the most recent labs, drawn Oct 24-Oct26)


    metabolic panel
    Glucose, Serum 99 mg/dL 65-99
    Uric Acid, Serum 6.0 mg/dL 3.7-8.6
    BUN 19 mg/dL 6-20
    Creatinine, Serum 0.96 mg/dL 0.76-1.27
    eGFR If NonAfricn Am 104 mL/min/ 1.73 >59
    eGFR If Africn Am 120 mL/min/ 1.73 >59
    BUN/Creatinine Ratio 20 8-19 HIGH
    Sodium, Serum 140 mmol/L 134-144
    Potassium, Serum 5.0 mmol/L 3.5-5.2
    Chloride, Serum 103 mmol/L 97-108
    Carbon Dioxide, Total 27 mmol/L 20-32
    Calcium, Serum 9.4 mg/dL 8.7-10.2
    Phosphorus, Serum 3.7 mg/dL 2.5-4.5
    Protein, Total, Serum 6.4 g/dL 6.0-8.5
    Albumin, Serum 4.2 g/dL 3.5-5.5
    Globulin, Total 2.2 g/dL 1.5-4.5
    A/G Ratio 1.9 1.1-2.5
    Bilirubin, Total 0.3 mg/dL 0.0-1.2
    Alkaline Phosphatase, 57 IU/L 25-150
    LDH 140 IU/L 0-225
    AST (SGOT) 18 IU/L 0-40
    ALT (SGPT) 19 IU/L 0-55
    GGT 24 IU/L 0-65


    Hemoglobin A1c 5.1 % 4.8-5.6
    Insulin 7.6 uIU/mL 2.6-24.9


    lipids
    Cholesterol, Total 142 mg/dL 100-199
    Triglycerides 82 mg/dL 0-149
    HDL Cholesterol 53 mg/dL >39
    According to ATP-III Guidelines, HDL-C >59 mg/dL is considered a
    negative risk factor for CHD.
    LDL Cholesterol Calc 73 mg/dL 0-99
    T. Chol/HDL Ratio 2.7 0.0-5.0


    thyroid panel
    TSH 0.006 uIU/mL 0.450-4.500 LOW
    Thyroxine (T4) 9.0 ug/dL 4.5-12.0
    Triiodothyronine (T3) 145 ng/dL 71-180
    T3 Uptake 39 % 24-39
    T4,Free(Direct) 1.79 ng/dL 0.82-1.77 HIGH
    T3,Free,Serum 4.9 pg/mL 2.0-4.4 HIGH
    Reverse T3, Serum 36.5 ng/dL 9.2 - 24.1 HIGH
    Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) Ab 8 IU/mL 0-34
    Antithyroglobulin Ab <20 IU/mL 0-40
    PTH, Intact 21 pg/mL 15-65


    iron panel
    Ferritin, Serum 296 ng/mL 30-400
    Iron, Serum 104 ug/dL 40-155
    Iron Bind.Cap.(TIBC) 238 ug/dL 250-450 LOW
    UIBC 134 ug/dL 150-375 LOW
    Iron Saturation 44 % 15-55


    steroid hormones and related
    Testosterone, Serum 1103 ng/dL 348-1197
    Free Test(Direct) 16.7 pg/mL 8.7-25.1
    Dihydrotestosterone 85 ng/dL 30 - 85
    SHBG, Serum 74.7 nmol/L 16.5-55.9 HIGH
    IGF-I 234 ng/mL 71-241
    DHEA-Sulfate 288.6 ug/dL 160.0-449.0
    Progesterone 0.9 ng/mL 0.2-1.4
    Estradiol 27.7 pg/mL 7.6-42.6
    (Roche ECLIA methodology)


    pituitary
    LH 7.2 mIU/mL 1.7-8.6
    FSH 2.5 mIU/mL 1.5-12.4
    Prolactin 13.9 ng/mL 4.0-15.2


    cortisol and related
    Pregnenolone, MS 196 ng/dL Adults: <151
    Cortisol - AM 23.9 ug/dL 6.2-19.4 HIGH
    ACTH, Plasma 96.7 pg/mL 7.2-63.3 HIGH


    inflammation
    C-Reactive Protein, 0.35 mg/L 0.00-3.00
    Relative Risk for Future Cardiovascular Event
    Low <1.00
    Average 1.00 - 3.00
    High >3.00


    vitamins
    Vitamin A, Serum 69 ug/dL 18-77
    Vitamin B12 782 pg/mL 211-946
    Folate (Folic Acid), Serum 15.6 ng/mL >3.0
    Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 66.3 ng/mL 30.0-100.0






    QUESTIONS:
    - Why do I still have high Ft4? Wouldn't the cytomel (and subsequent low TSH) suppress the formation of T4?
    - Why do I still have high reverse T3?
    - Why are my androgens so high? (back in the July, my TT was about 714)
    - How can I drive down SHBG (I'm guessing that the cytomel increased it.)
    - Why is my ACTH so high? Could the Cytomel do this?
    - What's causing my fatigue? My thyroid hormones are in range now ( they were not when I started) but I still feel worn out. Is this a RT3 issue?

    Sorry for late answering your PM.
    I may be easier to reach me here.


    http://www.allthingsmale.com/forum/member.php?9-JanSz




    thyroid labs (March 2012, pre treatment ... i.e., no levothyroxine, no cytomel)
    TSH 1.1 .03-3.0
    Free T3 2.2 pg/mL 2.4-4.8
    Free T4 1.09 ng/dL .6-1.6
    anti-TPO, negative





    I would say that you suffer mostly from your Circadian Rhythm problems.
    Screwed melatonin/cortisol pattern.
    Also review of your blood work indicate that you likely need fatty acids and phospholipids support.
    Your insulin and glucose are high.
    I am assuming that your high TotalTestosterone is natural.
    You should not use any thyroid hormones supplementations, if you must, 1 grain of Natural thyroid Product.
    Instead
    Cold Thermogenesis per dr Kruse
    and 200mg 7ketoDHEA
    ----------------------------------
    Because of this blood indicators being out of range you may consider suggested supplements


    CHOL -38 Manganese
    CHOL -38 Coconut Oil
    CHOL -38 Bile Salts


    AlkPhs -25 Vitamin C
    AlkPhs -25 Zinc
    AlkPhs -25 Phosphatidylcholine
    Alk Phos -34--vit C
    Alk phos -34--vit D3
    Alk phos---below 60 anorgasmic -------(describe how tough or easy is for you to get orgasm)
    Alkaline Phosphatase, 57 IU/L 25-150

    Potassium (K+21)taken 1-2hrs AFTER meals to support digestion and pancreas. 2capsules(1000mg) 2x/daily(after meals)


    Glucose +68 --Biotin
    Glucose +68--multi vitamin
    Glucose +68--Niacinamide
    .Glucose +68--Vit B1
    Glucose +32 chromium
    Glucose +32 Evening Primrose Oil


    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    You have high ferritin and hith testosterone.
    Monitor you hemoglobin and hematocrit.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    High glucose & insulin & highish prolactin
    stop eating all grains, corn, potatoes
    take
    1000mg/day Metformin
    up to 6 pills/(wakeup) Cycloset 0.8mg (start slow, may cause nausea)(expensive, do not use generic)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    To bring your screwed up Circadian Rhythm to oder will require
    strict
    adherence
    to dr Jack Kruse protocol.


    Highlights of that protocol:
    Work days shifts only.
    Work with daylight only, no artificial lighting after sundown.
    Sleep in official darkroom sometime within 10PM -8AM, keep bedroom cold, sleep naked uncovered
    At wakeup look at sun 5 minutes
    Eat big brekfast withn 30min to 1hr (50% daily food).
    Lunch
    Dinner within 4-6 hrs of bed time.
    No snacking
    Very low artificial light (use UV & green filter eyeglases.
    30min/day 5 days/week, ice cold bath up to the neck. (Cold Thermogenesis)(CT)
    I can't do CT, I take long cold showers, walk around in shorts and gym sleveless shirt at night (~30F now).
    When starting CT, apply it first to a throat area (communication with vagal nerve + brain)

    --------------------
    Eat EPI-Paleo diet as described by dr Jack Kruse


    Note, at my Shop-Rite dozen oysters $5.40, shucked oysters (about 2 dozens similar price).


    Total food intake =
    tap water as much as need
    solid food=70% fat +30 % protein (minimal, incidental carbohydrates but not in winter)
    protein part =more seafood than (pork, beef other mammals, no birds except eggs)
    whole eggs, bacon
    oysters


    preferably raw




    .............................. .......

    Get NutrEval (better but cost more) or
    Essential & Metabolic Fatty Acids Analysis (EMFA) by Genova Diagnostics
    http://www.healthremedies.com/essential_metabolic_fatty_acid s_analysis_emfa_genova_diagnos tics.html
    ----------------
    and

    Spectracell Comprehensive Nutritional Panel
    http://www.healthremedies.com/intracellular_vitamin_analysis _spectracell.html


    You should not be eating any supplemental fats.
    You are eating fish oils and krill oils, that is mistake.

    Stop that now.
    but
    if you are going to have fatty acid analysis now, then keep using the without changing dose.

    Supplemental fats =bad news unless protocol is guided by (good) fatty acid analysis.

    The fatty Acid Analysis from Genova are passable but not good.
    They do not have allowable upper range for EPA & DHA
    Those analysis will newer tell you that you eat too much Krill or fish oil.
    That is likely by design, they must be getting a cut from kril/fish oil industry


    For that reason I have misgivings about their NutrEval test.

    \\

    Off hand, the only fats you are eating are from the food, meats.

    lard
    beef tally
    other mammal fat
    butter
    coconut oil
    olive oil
    macadamia nuts
    avocado (whole)
    that's about all
    ============================== ============================== =========
    replace your selenium & iodine with this:

    2/day-->Super Selenium Complex, 200 mcg 100 capsules (lef.org)

    1 dropperfull/day=48mg/day
    Lugol's Iodine Family Pack -- 6 (2 fl. oz.) bottles Price: $73.90
    http://www.amazon.com/Lugols-Iodine-.../dp/B001RRP3FW
    recalculate dose if using other iodine/iodide source.

    BodyBio PC (Phosphatidylcholine)
    300 SoftGels (900mg)
    http://www.bodybio.com/storeproduct357.aspx
    4/day

    Doctor's Best Brain Enhancers (GPC) & (PS)
    2/day (possibly 4)

    4/day NAC (source of gluthatione)

    you may need IV gluthatione, check what comes out from Spectracell.




    ...........


    http://www.amazon.com/Allen-Company-.../dp/B003TWWT5A
    Allen Company Over-Prescription Shooting Glasses
    Price: $7.95



    .
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post

    Sorry for late answering your PM.
    I may be easier to reach me here.

    http://www.allthingsmale.com/forum/member.php?9-JanSz

    I would say that you suffer mostly from your Circadian Rhythm problems.
    Screwed melatonin/cortisol pattern.
    Also review of your blood work indicate that you likely need fatty acids and phospholipids support.
    Your insulin and glucose are high.
    I am assuming that your high TotalTestosterone is natural.
    You should not use any thyroid hormones supplementations, if you must, 1 grain of Natural thyroid Product.
    Instead
    Cold Thermogenesis per dr Kruse
    and 200mg 7ketoDHEA
    ----------------------------------
    Because of this blood indicators being out of range you may consider suggested supplements

    CHOL -38 Manganese
    CHOL -38 Coconut Oil
    CHOL -38 Bile Salts

    AlkPhs -25 Vitamin C
    AlkPhs -25 Zinc
    AlkPhs -25 Phosphatidylcholine
    Alk Phos -34--vit C
    Alk phos -34--vit D3
    Alk phos---below 60 anorgasmic -------(describe how tough or easy is for you to get orgasm)
    Alkaline Phosphatase, 57 IU/L 25-150

    Potassium (K+21)taken 1-2hrs AFTER meals to support digestion and pancreas. 2capsules(1000mg) 2x/daily(after meals)

    Glucose +68 --Biotin
    Glucose +68--multi vitamin
    Glucose +68--Niacinamide
    .Glucose +68--Vit B1
    Glucose +32 chromium
    Glucose +32 Evening Primrose Oil

    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    You have high ferritin and hith testosterone.
    Monitor you hemoglobin and hematocrit.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    High glucose & insulin & highish prolactin
    stop eating all grains, corn, potatoes
    take
    1000mg/day Metformin
    up to 6 pills/(wakeup) Cycloset 0.8mg (start slow, may cause nausea)(expensive, do not use generic)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    To bring your screwed up Circadian Rhythm to oder will require
    strict
    adherence
    to dr Jack Kruse protocol.

    Highlights of that protocol:
    Work days shifts only.
    Work with daylight only, no artificial lighting after sundown.
    Sleep in official darkroom sometime within 10PM -8AM, keep bedroom cold, sleep naked uncovered
    At wakeup look at sun 5 minutes
    Eat big brekfast withn 30min to 1hr (50% daily food).
    Lunch
    Dinner within 4-6 hrs of bed time.
    No snacking
    Very low artificial light (use UV & green filter eyeglases.
    30min/day 5 days/week, ice cold bath up to the neck. (Cold Thermogenesis)(CT)
    I can't do CT, I take long cold showers, walk around in shorts and gym sleveless shirt at night (~30F now).
    When starting CT, apply it first to a throat area (communication with vagal nerve + brain)

    --------------------
    Eat EPI-Paleo diet as described by dr Jack Kruse

    Note, at my Shop-Rite dozen oysters $5.40, shucked oysters (about 2 dozens similar price).

    Total food intake =
    tap water as much as need
    solid food=70% fat +30 % protein (minimal, incidental carbohydrates but not in winter)
    protein part =more seafood than (pork, beef other mammals, no birds except eggs)
    whole eggs, bacon
    oysters

    preferably raw

    .............................. .......

    Get NutrEval (better but cost more) or
    Essential & Metabolic Fatty Acids Analysis (EMFA) by Genova Diagnostics
    http://www.healthremedies.com/essential_metabolic_fatty_acid s_analysis_emfa_genova_diagnos tics.html
    ----------------
    and

    Spectracell Comprehensive Nutritional Panel
    http://www.healthremedies.com/intracellular_vitamin_analysis _spectracell.html

    You should not be eating any supplemental fats.
    You are eating fish oils and krill oils, that is mistake.

    Stop that now.
    but
    if you are going to have fatty acid analysis now, then keep using the without changing dose.

    Supplemental fats =bad news unless protocol is guided by (good) fatty acid analysis.

    The fatty Acid Analysis from Genova are passable but not good.
    They do not have allowable upper range for EPA & DHA
    Those analysis will newer tell you that you eat too much Krill or fish oil.
    That is likely by design, they must be getting a cut from kril/fish oil industry

    For that reason I have misgivings about their NutrEval test.

    \\

    Off hand, the only fats you are eating are from the food, meats.

    lard
    beef tally
    other mammal fat
    butter
    coconut oil
    olive oil
    macadamia nuts
    avocado (whole)
    that's about all
    ============================== ============================== =========
    replace your selenium & iodine with this:

    2/day-->Super Selenium Complex, 200 mcg 100 capsules (lef.org)

    1 dropperfull/day=48mg/day
    Lugol's Iodine Family Pack -- 6 (2 fl. oz.) bottles Price: $73.90
    http://www.amazon.com/Lugols-Iodine-.../dp/B001RRP3FW
    recalculate dose if using other iodine/iodide source.

    BodyBio PC (Phosphatidylcholine)
    300 SoftGels (900mg)
    http://www.bodybio.com/storeproduct357.aspx
    4/day

    Doctor's Best Brain Enhancers (GPC) & (PS)
    2/day (possibly 4)

    4/day NAC (source of gluthatione)

    you may need IV gluthatione, check what comes out from Spectracell.

    ...........

    http://www.amazon.com/Allen-Company-.../dp/B003TWWT5A
    Allen Company Over-Prescription Shooting Glasses
    Price: $7.95

    .
    These recommendations in a cfs patient are potentially dangerous due.to.their.bio individualality. Ideal with multiple cases of cfs lyme fm all week long. Majority of them are.made worse from drs following old school approaches Information i.use is cutting edge and from.latest research. I spend more time correcting imbalances from other uninformed medical professionals sad to say...
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  7. Its been a while since this discussion, but out of curiosity, did you ever get an MRI or see a neurologist? I'm not a doctor, I don't work in the medical field, but I was studying to work in the medical field until a condition with some of the same symptoms derailed everything (for now).
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Are we allowed to post questions about labs here?
    By ncangey0513 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-15-2010, 06:56 PM
  2. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-12-2008, 01:20 AM
  3. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 09-02-2007, 06:33 PM
  4. Low T and Chronic Fatigue
    By toast in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 04-08-2007, 01:20 PM
  5. Cutting Question...Detailed!!
    By dertynasty in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-05-2006, 07:55 PM
Log in
Log in