Coming off TRT after 10 Years- Seeking solid advice

[PumpDogg]

Ive been a member of this forum for a very long time. The majority of the time i reply in threads about, anabolics, TRT with Gel(s), shots etc..

Here is my problem

A little history first.

1. Starting cycling steroids when I was 21 years old. At 21 I had already noticed my erection strength or ability was not what it once was, but when I would run a cycle, everything would be great.. Just like I was a teenager again. I didnt run juice for this reason, but quickly learned TEST was a God Send!!

2. Continued cycling up unitl I was 28-30.. At this point I got married and had already told my wife I took a TRT dose of cyp from the black market because I couldnt find any doctor to treat me for low T even though I had labs drawn thru my 20's showing my test being very low.. ( in the 200's always ).

3. Got on Androgel @10% with an estro blocker ( Evista ) because I am very sensitive to estrogen and cant mess with any 19 Nor products or I get Progesterone gyno. I learned that the hard way young!!

4. Discontinued Androgel Therapy at 30 to start a family and went on Clomid at 50 mgs a day. I did great with that, test levels always in the medium range but after years of using it, my labs came back lower and lower.

5. Finished having kids and went back on TRT Androgel again 2 years ago,but this time around I noticed things were not as they had been before when on the gel. I didnt have the energy I should have.. Erection strength was not very good. Gym training I did okay,but still nothing as before.

Finally 2 weeks ago I came off trt again and started back on clomid therapy to see if I could become somewhat normal and not need cialis or viagra for good sexual function.

Ive read allot of Matrix post over the last couple of years and have seen where he would say, 12.5 mgs M, W, F seems to work better for people and you dont build a tolerance to the drug and have diminishing results. I went ahead and started at 50 mgs per day to get me going, but I havent seen any effects yet.
Ive been low emotionally, which I expect, and sex isnt going to happen without allot of help and then its not 100%.

I am considering adding in a supplement to boost test and free test or something? I dunno man.. I cycled for a long time, but never stayed on over 12-16 wks ever.. But with TRT Ive been on for years straight..

I figured I would run the clomid until I at least start to feel better and possibly "function" normally at which point I would switch to 12.5 mgs M.W.F of clomid and go from there.. I also wondered if I should add in a natural test booster of some sort to aid since Ive been shut down for sooo long. Id like to see where my levels would actually stabilize at off of everything some months down the line from now.

I go every 6 months to my Endo to get all my levels checked and addressed..I would just like to return to normal if at all possible.. I have an issue at 38 years old not being able to perform sexually with my 30 yr old wife and not feeling good like I should especially when I am on TRT..

I also understand anyones advice is not to be viewed as a medical docotor ( even if you are one ) and that anything I do is on my own and I hold no one responsible but myself for the outcome..

Regards

PD

 

[Docmattic]

look up triptorelin

I dont know if its been used much, but sounds promising for such cases.

 

[The Matrix]

look up triptorelin

I dont know if its been used much, but sounds promising for such cases.

No clinical evidence it works just one study which is not enough to.base anything on for now...

 

[PumpDogg]

Matrix what do you think?

 

[PumpDogg]

No clinical evidence it works just one study which is not enough to.base anything on for now...

Do you have any advice then regarding what you would suggest if anything else besides the clomid? I was hoping you would chime in an give me some advice.

 

[vassille]

To make a long story short, if I were you I would start 100mg of test a week along with .25mg adex or .5 if need it.
Also, do a full blood work panel, SHBG, free test, estrogen cholesterol, triglycerides, blood glucose tolarance test etc
Very important, look into your diet. See if what you eat creates any inflamation along the way and preventing your body from uptake of important nutritents.
I've been in your shoes and for me it was the food. Went on a low carb diet and I can get crazy errections now with as low as 100mg of test a week where before 250mg of test didnt do half the job.
I would suggest to not take any other hormone altering compounds besides vitamins and minerals, fish oil.
See how that goes

 

[j2048b]

ah just follow cashouts exit strategy and ull be fine, nuts pumping and body producing in no time...

over at steroid insight dot com, under the hrt section a stickie named cashout's exit strategy is there and is a good way to get the boys pumping and u feeling good again,

read his post # 12 as he gives a few changes, from what i have gathered others have followed his same exit srategy and are good to go!

 

[PumpDogg]

Thanks for the info guys.. I read Cashouts thread.. Very interesting as after I posted here again last night I spent a couple of hours surfing the net reading about triptorelin and stumbled across some research from medical doctors, studys etc, that pretty much lay it out as Cashout does.. The only exception was the addtion of letro.. They only used clomid, HCG and Nolva to restore HTPA from steroid use..

Great read, thank you both for the imput..

As for my diet? Its crap right now.. My job prevents me from eating often or even sometimes eating.. Maybe that has played a larger role in my problem,. I honestly never considered it.. Time to switch things up and go from there.. I will update this thread as things go along for me, no reason to start a new one

 

[kisaj]

If you have a crap diet and have not considered that to be part of the problem, you really need to reevaluate and start with the basics. I would not be looking to make any changes until I had my foundation in check.

 

[PumpDogg]

If you have a crap diet and have not considered that to be part of the problem, you really need to reevaluate and start with the basics. I would not be looking to make any changes until I had my foundation in check.

I should have used better term than crap diet, but I digress.

I am a union rep at my job.. Im busy daily and often cant break away from the "action" to eat.. So I will take home what I brought to work and eat it then.. terrible way to feed yourself but this job has def had an effect on the way I can eat. Worst case I will stop at the local choke and puke on the way home to feed myself.

I start each day good.. Oatmeal, whey protein shake, mixed nuts for snacks and usally a good serving of protein source before I come into work ( I work nights ) but then its a crap shoot of when i will have an oportunity to eat again..
I appreciate all the replies in this thread though.. Im working towards a resolve

 

[The Matrix]

Huge red flags right out of the gate..people.really need to focus on.lifestyle and nutrition before any thing should.be adjusted. need to.lay foundation other words it waste of.time.for.you.and practitioner.

 

[kisaj]

I should have used better term than crap diet, but I digress.

I am a union rep at my job.. Im busy daily and often cant break away from the "action" to eat.. So I will take home what I brought to work and eat it then.. terrible way to feed yourself but this job has def had an effect on the way I can eat. Worst case I will stop at the local choke and puke on the way home to feed myself.

I start each day good.. Oatmeal, whey protein shake, mixed nuts for snacks and usally a good serving of protein source before I come into work ( I work nights ) but then its a crap shoot of when i will have an oportunity to eat again..
I appreciate all the replies in this thread though.. Im working towards a resolve

Ok, that's fine- a lot of us have to find time and a way to eat and rest properly. But, don't go looking at HRT to make up for that. All you are doing is adding a variable that will need to be figured out once it stops working because your diet is still bad.

 

[The Matrix]

Ok, that's fine- a lot of us have to find time and a way to eat and rest properly. But, don't go looking at HRT to make up for that. All you are doing is adding a variable that will need to be figured out once it stops working because your diet is still bad.

If a person is not going to commit to lifestyle and dietary changes then do not even bother wasting my time or yours..seriously. I have let people go because they were not will to commit to lifestyle changes.

 

[j2048b]

I should have used better term than crap diet, but I digress.

I am a union rep at my job.. Im busy daily and often cant break away from the "action" to eat.. So I will take home what I brought to work and eat it then.. terrible way to feed yourself but this job has def had an effect on the way I can eat. Worst case I will stop at the local choke and puke on the way home to feed myself.

I start each day good.. Oatmeal, whey protein shake, mixed nuts for snacks and usally a good serving of protein source before I come into work ( I work nights ) but then its a crap shoot of when i will have an oportunity to eat again..
I appreciate all the replies in this thread though.. Im working towards a resolve

what i would suggest you do in terms of diet if u cant break away to eat is read ori's warrior diet book, a man in ur condition, who is too busy to eat would def do well especially because the bulk of ur eating is at night and the warrior diet asks u to eat the bulk of ur food at night a FEAST meal, thru the day u have usually 3 smaller underfeed meals,

my meals in the underfeed consisted of this:

ea meal 1 cup cottage cheese or greek yogurt, 1 cup of high antioxidant berrie, (blueberries for me!)

would def make a dietary difference for u and allow u to have a ton of energy thru the day and sleep like a baby, and the greates effect: CUT FAT!! it works, ive doen it, and ive seen it!!

try cashouts restart, i almost gaurantee it will work, if it doesnt, then ur a trter for life, clomid works but after u quit a lot of times ur levels drop back down to low numbers, also it pays to use an ai while on clomid from alot of other people perspective,

 

[The Matrix]

just eat a well balanced meal instead of trying all these crazy azz diets which are not designed to be sustained for life. Plain and simple go back to the basics...

 

[PumpDogg]

Balanced diet with plenty of veggies and fruit is on the menu now.. I have always stayed away from fruit as I found it counter productive for bodybuilding except for tropical fruit immediately following a training session. Meats are lean as always and in moderation. I will continue to post as this goes. I have blood draw for Novemeber 5th and 2 weeks later I will follow up with my doctor to see where I am at. I will post my labs here to let you all see also. I plan on more blood draws in 3 months from my follow up to see how my body does without any drugs aiding it in production of hormones.
Thank you for the continued advice all.. Im trying to learn from this and hopefully someone else will learn from my mistakes.. I know I have made allot of mistakes concerning my body and my past practices over the years, but it was never my intent to cause myself harm..

Regards

PD

 

[PumpDogg]

Okay so I have my test results and wanted to cut and paste them here for ease of reading but for some reason when I go to paste them, it wont let me use the return key without messing up the results as they read.. So I cant modify the way they look right now
I will try and stack them the best I can and not make a mess of it.
My personal value is the first number you read.. The remainder are the ranges per my testing facility

T4-Total

4.9

5.5 - 11.0

uG/DL

TSH

1.210

0.470 - 4.68

uIU/ML

T3 Uptake	35	25 - 38	%
T4-Total	5.4	4.0 - 11.0	uG/DL
Free Thyroxine Index	1.9	1.4 - 4.5

Estradiol

17.2

()

pg/mL

Testosterone	304	300 - 1080	ng/dL
Sex Hormone Binding	28	11 - 80	nmol/L
Free Testosterone	59	47 - 244	pg/mL
Free Testosterone%	2.0	1.6 - 2.9	%

Prolactin

8.7

3.7 - 17.9

NG/ML

Triglycerides	68	<150	MG/DL
Cholesterol	165	<200	MG/DL
HDL	46	>=60	MG/DL
LDL-Calculated	105	<100	MG/DL

Sodium	143	137 - 145	MMOL/L
Potassium	4.4	3.5 - 5.1	MMOL/L
Chloride	104	98 - 107	MMOL/L
CO2	31	22 - 30	MMOL/L
Glucose	100	74 - 106	MG/DL
BUN	13	7 - 20	MG/DL
Creatinine	0.9	0.7 - 1.5	MG/DL
Calcium	8.8	8.4 - 10.2	MG/DL
Total Protein	6.7	6.3 - 8.2	GM/DL
Albumin	3.9	3.5 - 5.0	GM/DL
Bilirubin-Total	0.5	0.2 - 1.3	MG/DL
AST	41	15 - 46	U/L
ALT	64	13 - 69	U/L
Alkaline Phosphatase	94	38 - 126	U/L

 

[PumpDogg]

^^^^
These number above are after stopping my gel and starting on clomid after a couple weeks of being off the TRT.. This reading is less than one month being on clomid at 50 mgs per day alongside 60mgs of Evista daily. Nothing else. No HCG or AI.

I spent allot of time trying to talk to my docotor about my situation and what I wanted to do which was be normal and function normal and feel normal. Im no longer caught up in how large my overall test numbers are, as I am learning that isnt the holy grail as I once thought it was.
I can say I feel better not being on the gel, I was having anxiety, but never attributed it to test gel and since I quit using it, I have not had anymore issue with it.

My doctor is a great guy, but he isnt as well versed in some of this as I am and I still have much to learn. He felt that clomid would do me no good. Said it rarely affects testosterone and is for women not men.. We know this isnt the case, but what do you say. I also asked if maybe I could drop the Evista and try an AI to see if that would be better.. Again, he said an AI and Estro blocker are one in the same.. No need for AI's??? I ask if we could look at dropping clomid dose to 12.5 mgs M W F and see if that worked even better.. He said, it wont work..

Pretty much my endo was take shots, pellets, gel or nothing.. My goal is to be on nothing if possible and to find out what my true normal range is. Right now Im not sure where I go from here.
Obvisouly Im not going to stay on the clomid as I only had a small amount left and dont want to take it if I dont need it.. I suggested we do frequent blood draws to see how I was doing.. He said my insurance would not cover unneseccary draws and would deem them as such.

After being off TRT I have taken some time to notice things. At 304 I feel better in many areas than I had been at much larger numbers, but still dont feel 100% yet.
Some things I noticed while on TRT but never gave much thought...

1. I held water on my lower legs. i would notice when i would take off a boot sock.
2. My blood pressure was always elevated, I would notice this minutes after I applied the gel and much of the day
3. My sleep was much worse. I have sleep apnea and it was worse then than now, especailly if I fall asleep on the couch ;-)
4. I started having bad anxiety to the point where I thought I was starting to suffer from some mental problem that had been lying dormat all my adult life. Off the gel, its completely gone!
5. My hair started shedding and i notice it in the shower and when I fixed my hair.. My barber also said my hair had started thinning at an accelerated rate. Stopped the gel and may hair stopped falling out
6. Less aggressive and unlikely to blow up on my job.. I represent people on a daily basis.. High stress is part of my daily life.
7. I feel better with less sleep.. Im sure this is because of #3

Dont get me wrong here.. I loved having high test levels all the way up to my late 30's, but as I continue to age, I grow smarter and finally am realizing, more is not always better when it comes to your hormones which was always my mind set before.

 

[chedapalooza]

Subbed for the Day I need to start planning the end of my trt... Just read cash outs thread. Hopefully my doc will be open to using all of those substances. I will be wanting to have kids in the next year or two.. I have been on trt for 1 month, age 24. Test was 288, is now 679 after 4 weeks. No estrogen sides to speak of.

 

[The Matrix]

Too much clomid will lower testosteorne by reducing sensitivity to your LH. With out proper nutrients, testosterone will not work at the receptors. There are just too many missing pieces of the puzzles. Detailed history is required in order to help better evaluation and recommendations. You got a big azz onion which needs to be pulled back layer by layer to see what is underneath. From dealing with variety of scenarios, you have to look for why this is all occurring then chunk it down the to smallest parts then look for the interactions of all the systems as well as external factors. When proper evaluation you be surprise just how simple some of these enigmas are. They are mostly common sense and logical.

 

[PumpDogg]

Matrix Im working to do better with the limited amount of help I get from my doctor. He knows about my past cycling.. I told him the very first time we met. He also knows I had suffered from low test all through my 20's that was left untreated.

From my labs my Estrogen, Prolactin and SHGB are low.. None are in the high range. Free test is only 59...

The last time I can remember feeling "normal".. I was using 10% Androgel daily alongside .63 mgs daily of Letro. I was using letro to shrink old existing gyno that had flaired up out of the blue. It shrank the gyno and resolved any ED problems I had..

I went to be tested and my test were out of range. MY free test was just above the top of the range. My Overall test was 1100 and I cant remember was my estrogen and prolactin were. Regardless it was the best I had felt in years, but again this isnt something my endo will talk about.

My diet has been in check now for the last couple of weeks so that will help things along I believe. My insurance is not wanting to pay for addtional clomid. So currently flying solo with no hormone altering drugs in my system..

Matrix do you have any suggestions other than I needed to get back to the basics. I dont know how much more basic I can get right now.
Im completely natural and eating a well balanced diet including fruits. No hormonal meds or supplements in my body. Should I wait X amount of time and then re test? Should I seek a new doctor?

 

[chedapalooza]

Hey big T werentu on androgel? I'm switching tomorrow bc the patches r giving me crazy itchy rash/burns!

 

[PumpDogg]

Yes I did androgel for years.. It works for some, for others it does not.. It may also work for a period of time and then not continue to produce good results. Everyone will react differently!!