My protocol-200 every 5 or 400/week

[rbrooks]

Day 1: 500mg HCG
Day 2: 200mg test cyp
Day 3: 1mg Anastrozole
Day 4: Off
Day 5: 500mg HCG
Day 6: 200mg test cyp
Day 7: 1mg Anastrozole
Day 8: Off

...repeat.

My HRT clinic has advised this dosage. I plainly state that I want the hrt benefits of the protocol but also something that I can see training gains with. They've stated that this still falls within therapeutic dosage and that I don't have to cycle on or off of this or change overall levels--Just stay right at this.

Is 200mg every 4-5 days sustainable?

 

[kisaj]

It sure as hell wouldn't be for me- I'd go bananas with anxiety and aggression. Personally, I think 200mg every 7 is high for most everyone.

Oh, and you really plan to run that course for the rest of your life? Seems like a lot of injecting.

 

[rbrooks]

To be honest, no. If nothing else, pricing.

I felt 'normal' when I was incorrectly (According to my HRT clinic rep) dosing at 250 hcg 2x, 200mg test 1x, and 1mg anastrozole 2x in a 7 day period. However, I didn't notice any significant gym gains.

He corrected me after our last conversation, and in the past 4 weeks I've noticed the gains come up quite a bit. Noticeably to people that see me every day, without me mentioning it. I feel fine, albeit a bit different, but I notice the acne up a little and sleep is a bit peculiar due to higher blood pressure. I attribute that some to the workout drinks, too, and working out late at night.

I'm totally fine with keeping this level for a 12 weeks or couple of months, the gains are great. What I'm worried about is long-term heart issues if I do it for too long.

Am I incorrect in thinking this looks like more of a cycle dosage than a permanent one? And dropping back to half as much, which felt fine, after a bit shouldn't have any negative effects in and of itself, should it?

 

[aj0538]

It sounds like we are using the same doctor. 400 is defintely not a trt dose. It's a cycle dose albeit a smaller cycle dose. the hardset part is going to be keeping your e2 in check. Thats a lot of test and hcg and depending on how much you aromatize and how sensitive you are to Arimidex you may end up with elevated e2. Most guys on 100mg a week are using .25 to .5 mg of adex 2 times a week. Acne and HBP are some signs of too much e2. I know my e2 is jacked when I start to break out.

 

[vassille]

To be honest, no. If nothing else, pricing.

I felt 'normal' when I was incorrectly (According to my HRT clinic rep) dosing at 250 hcg 2x, 200mg test 1x, and 1mg anastrozole 2x in a 7 day period. However, I didn't notice any significant gym gains.

He corrected me after our last conversation, and in the past 4 weeks I've noticed the gains come up quite a bit. Noticeably to people that see me every day, without me mentioning it. I feel fine, albeit a bit different, but I notice the acne up a little and sleep is a bit peculiar due to higher blood pressure. I attribute that some to the workout drinks, too, and working out late at night.

I'm totally fine with keeping this level for a 12 weeks or couple of months, the gains are great. What I'm worried about is long-term heart issues if I do it for too long.

Am I incorrect in thinking this looks like more of a cycle dosage than a permanent one? And dropping back to half as much, which felt fine, after a bit shouldn't have any negative effects in and of itself, should it?

Some ppl are more sensitive than others. Your dosage is beyond HRT BUT not far out of the range IF you have a fair amount of muscle and are close to that genetic threshold. Problem is that yes you will make gains because of the high test but I would drop it down now and then. CHeck your nutrition/training/sleep regimen too. Sometimes that's the culprit rather than test levels.

 

[v4lu3s]

That's not TRT, that's a cycle. Personally, as much as the gains are desired, i would walk away from that and go to real TRT doctor if i needed TRT. Estrogen will be very high without the arimdex and i do not even like what that stuff does, i think aromasin is better. You will probably need a lot of lab work to get a healthy balance of hormones too.

I know i would make good gains in a cycle like that, but i am only 220 and 14%.

 

[napalm]

that is not trt, and i see some pretty heavy mood swings even w the anastrozole. i'm with kisaj, that's not something i would want to do.

<----75 mg twice a week, and even i think that's at the upper limit of trt. i've gained 17 pounds since the beginning of the year, so gains can be made at this dose. if you weren't making gains on 200/week, i would look closely at your diet. that just doesn't make sense.

 

[kisaj]

I am a very muscular person due to 20+ years of gym time, sports, and genetics from my hard ass Hungarian dad. Even when I was running around with 200 level test for over a year, you could never tell by my physique, but I had to work 3 times as hard to keep it. That being said, once I got on TRT (only 125mg a week), I blew up. Definition, 6-10lbs of muscle gained in the last year, and just overall much bigger looking. I constantly get comments from people that know me- and it feels damn good. You don't need to be on a cycle dose, and shouldn't be, for TRT. I can't imagine any reputable doctor or specialist agreeing to give anyone a higher dose because they want to make gains in the gym. They don't sound safe and don't sound like they want to provide you with a sustainable life.

 

[B5150]

Day 1: 500mg HCG
Day 2: 200mg test cyp
Day 3: 1mg Anastrozole
Day 4: Off
Day 5: 500mg HCG
Day 6: 200mg test cyp
Day 7: 1mg Anastrozole
Day 8: Off

...repeat.

My HRT clinic has advised this dosage. I plainly state that I want the hrt benefits of the protocol but also something that I can see training gains with. They've stated that this still falls within therapeutic dosage and that I don't have to cycle on or off of this or change overall levels--Just stay right at this.

Is 200mg every 4-5 days sustainable?

You are surely aware that they are lying to you. 200mg/wk is over well over clinical levels. Running 400+ infinitely will definitely cause health issues.

 

[alpinecoach]

My doc has had me on 200mg/ week for the past couple months. I use erase @ 2/ day for three days following pin. Last bloods had test at 1300 & E2 @ 24. With that said, I have noticed mood swings for the first couple days post pin. Thinking I may drop down to 150 mg and see what happens, and then maybe 100 depending on bloods. I would like to keep test levels around 1000.

 

[B5150]

Cut it into biweekly injections and take 1 Erase ED

 

[alpinecoach]

I will try that and report back.

 

[napalm]

Cut it into biweekly injections and take 1 Erase ED

Hmm, I just started 2 erase/day last week. Wonder if I should decrease to 1/day.

 

[B5150]

Hmm, I just started 2 erase/day last week. Wonder if I should decrease to 1/day.

I made the speculation based on his data:

My doc has had me on 200mg/ week for the past couple months. I use erase @ 2/ day for three days following pin. Last bloods had test at 1300 & E2 @ 24. With that said, I have noticed mood swings for the first couple days post pin. Thinking I may drop down to 150 mg and see what happens, and then maybe 100 depending on bloods. I would like to keep test levels around 1000.

He is using 200mg 1/wk and at 1300 (which is about right on for 200mg). He is using 6 Erase per week (2/d 3 days a week) and keeping a good level of E2. My thinking was split the dose into 100mg 2/wk and spread the 6 capsules out over the week (1/day or 6-7/wk). Might even be able to lower the Erase dose with more frequent injections.

 

[rbrooks]

I've got Erase here too. I suppose that's pointless with the prescription adex.

I think I have all the answers I need here. I'll revert to the 200t/500hcg/1mg level. I'm not against boosting for gains for short periods, I just needed confirmation that the level was indeed not a good idea to run permanently or long term.

Thanks much.

PS: Any input on the HCG or anastrozole levels at 200mg test e7d?

 

[aj0538]

I'm at 200 a week split up into 2 shots and 500 iu of hcg. I was using .5 adex 2 times a week and my e2 dropped to 7. I've since went to .25 twice a week. I feel better but I don't have labs yet. I feel that I may slightly over respond to adex.

 

[rbrooks]

Wow. Returning to the 1mg for sure.

I'll drop back to 200/500/1mg for a few weeks and get blood work done and really see where I am. Just been going by feel thus far. The results have gotten obvious, but the good feel is hampered by anxiety, hbp, and general gnarly feeling.

 

[alpinecoach]

As far as HCG goes, I am running it right now. My nuts are nice and full. With that said, I don't think I will run it again, price is to high for the results. I am 46 and do not plan on having any more kids, so the HCG is kind of pointless. Don't really care if my nuts get a little smaller.

 

[alpinecoach]

Talk to your Dr about reducing you to 100 mg/ week, most seem to do real well at that level, should still see Test levels around 700-900.

 

[The Matrix]

Talk to your Dr about reducing you to 100 mg/ week, most seem to do real well at that level, should still see Test levels around 700-900.

If.there is.not shbg issues then.most.men do.good on 60-100 mgs a week.in divided dosage. Clarify bi weekly means every 2 weeks not 2 times.per week. 400 mgs a week is steroids not.hrt dosage. It will.be interesting to see how e2 levels are adjusted on Erase. When.it.comes to.E2 I.am.looking to.modulated this on a totally different.level..possible reducing ai needed if.any

 

[rbrooks]

I'm 37 and we haven't had kids yet; She's 27 so it's still a probability. The HCG is a must.

 

[alpinecoach]

If.there is.not shbg issues then.most.men do.good on 60-100 mgs a week.in divided dosage. Clarify bi weekly means every 2 weeks not 2 times.per week. 400 mgs a week is steroids not.hrt dosage. It will.be interesting to see how e2 levels are adjusted on Erase. When.it.comes to.E2 I.am.looking to.modulated this on a totally different.level..possible reducing ai needed if.any

I am interested in hearing how you would modulate E2 without an AI. Can you elaborate on this. I would not suggest bi weekly injections, this seems like it would create a roller coaster effect.

I am going to try 100mg 2x/ week, and see if that helps how I feel, looking for a nice level feeling.

 

[The Matrix]

I am interested in hearing how you would modulate E2 without an AI. Can you elaborate on this. I would not suggest bi weekly injections, this seems like it would create a roller coaster effect.

I am going to try 100mg 2x/ week, and see if that helps how I feel, looking for a nice level feeling.

Finding metabolic and enzymatic blocks in detox pathways..Sorry I am not going to reveal too much till I have the data and research to validate it.

 

[alpinecoach]

Finding metabolic and enzymatic blocks in detox pathways..Sorry I am not going to reveal too much till I have the data and research to validate it.

I will be watching...

 

[The Matrix]

I will be watching...

I'm in the process of contacting the right people to help get grants for clinical studies.

 

[aj0538]

As far as hcg keeping you fertile my wife can vouch for that. She's about to deliver any day now.

 

[The Matrix]

As far as hcg keeping you fertile my wife can vouch for that. She's about to deliver any day now.

Congrats !!
Remember it takes 2 to tango

 

[rbrooks]

I guess my next move is to return to the 200/500/1mg level and then get labs done after a few weeks to see where I'm sitting it before playing with the higher dosage. I'm just glad that consensus is that 400 isn't really sustainable. Good to know what I can 'blast' to if need be, but not have to run at that.

 

[rbrooks]

Blood work Friday. I had high liver enzymes in October, doc wants to recheck. Eeek. Laying off the shots and creatine for a couple of days.

 

[The Matrix]

Blood work Friday. I had high liver enzymes in October, doc wants to recheck. Eeek. Laying off the shots and creatine for a couple of days.

Dr should send for liver ultrasound with elevated enzymes if he has.not already. Any thing happens his ass is grass as medical board would probably not approve of his approach if reviewed.

 

[B5150]

Really? Ultrasound? Maybe a Hep test, hemachromatosis, etc. Seems a bit of a leep to an unnecessarily extreme procedure with little data aside from elevated values. We haven't even seen what his numbers were yet. JMHO

 

[rbrooks]

Ultrasound was done last October, nothing visible. At the time I was drinking 2-3x a week, taking an ECA stack (aspirin daily), eating a 70% protein diet, training 6 days a week AND creatine daily.

Since starting the HRT, the ECA is gone, I drink once or twice a month, my diet is much more 'normal' and I train 5 days a week. I had low vitamin D, which is taken care of with 4000iu a day D3, and apparently that also affects liver function. Perhaps I falsely assume, but with all those factors and test/hcg/adex not being hepatoxic, the liver should have mellowed out a bit by now.

The primary care doctor is the one I'm talking to now. The HRT clinic is entirely a separate issue. This is largely a self-managed program, and it's challenging to balance it with a primary care doc that is so old school that he flat out said, even with low T, he wouldn't treat it. I guess he thinks once you hit 35 you shouldn't expect quality of life.

So, in short, to hell with him regarding my hormonal care and gym gains. The *only* thing I need to do at this point is ensure that I'm not permanently piling up my liver with Creatine.

 

[RipdnTxs]

Correct me if I,m wrong, but doesnt the breakdown of muscle tissue from intense training give a false reading on liver enzymes... I had slightly ele vated liver values on a yearly physical and discussed this issue with my Doc, he said it could. He suggested I stop training for a week and come back, we ran the same tests and all liver values were normal. Something U may want to ask your Doc. about, if he will even listen to U. Good luck....

 

[amateurfreak]

Correct me if I,m wrong, but doesnt the breakdown of muscle tissue from intense training give a false reading on liver enzymes... I had slightly ele vated liver values on a yearly physical and discussed this issue with my Doc, he said it could. He suggested I stop training for a week and come back, we ran the same tests and all liver values were normal. Something U may want to ask your Doc. about, if he will even listen to U. Good luck....

You shouldn't train for a few days before laboratory tests. You'll also have an elevated cpk in addition to the elevated liver enzymes.

 

[rbrooks]

I had already trained yesterday when this was scheduled, so I was able to completely dry out today and didn't train today. Test is at 7am.

If I get another high liver palette I'll take a full week off and redo.

 

[RipdnTxs]

Cool, keep us updated...

 

[rbrooks]

Thanks for caring!

 

[rbrooks]

Doc's office is giving me a copy of the October '11 results Monday, so I'll have info on what those old high enzymes were. They won't give me the new results til he goes over them with me in 2 weeks.

 

[LMuscle]

Bilirubin is liver enzymes right?

 

[napalm]

Bilirubin is liver enzymes right?

correct...

 

[rbrooks]

Most recent panel:
All liver numbers to high side of specs with a couple over:

Total protein 7.1
Albumin 4.3
Bili Total 2.7 (normal is .2-1.2)
AST 36 (Normal is 5-34)
ALT 55
ALK phosphate 63

For as much D3 as I take, its only 49 of a normal range of 30-96.

Only other out of spec was absolute baso c at 0 and dldl lipid at 133.