Clomid 12.5mg m,w,f
- 07-05-2013, 03:25 PM
Well - I got some of my new labs back. My previous results were obtained while taking 25mg Clomid every day. These results are after I have dropped the clomid to 25mg M, W, F (last two months) and added in two tablets of PES Erase every day (one Month now). I dont have full labs yet but here goes:
The good news (note these are Canada so reference range and units may be different than those you are used to in USA)
ALT 25 U/L range 1 - 60
GGT 16 U/L range 11-63
Total Cholesterol 4.13 mmol/L (range 4.2 - 5.2)
Triglycerides 0.58 mmol/L (range 0.60-2.30)
HDL 1.46 mmol?L (range >=0.91)
LDL 2.40 mmol/L (range 2.2 - 3.4)
The Not-So-Good News
Cortisol AM 596 nmol/l (range 200 - 690)
Estradiol 172 pmol/L (range 0 - 160)
LH 11 IU/L (range 1 - 9)
Progesterone 2.7 nmol/L (range 0 - 3.0)
Total Testosterone 20.5 nmol/L (range 8.0 - 29.0)
I have no results yet for SHBG, Free Testosterone, BioAvailable Testosterone. DHEA-S, or IGF-1
SO ... the PES Erase has seemingly done virtually nothing for my estradiol - if anything my ratio of total testosterone to estradiol has gotten worse in the one month I have been taking Erase. My Testosterone numbers could have been a bit lower on this morning for a number of reasons
(1 - this test was done while fasted as required for lipids test, previous test was not
2 - I was up really early (5 AM ) and test was done at 7:30 - previous test was done 1 hr after waking or so
3 - I went jogging that morning - something I did not do before the previous test)
Lipids numbers are a bit low on Triglycerides and Total Cholesterol - which is interesting as I eat a lot of fat ( typical breakfast is 3 egss, 4 oz steak and a sweet potato). I think these are healthy numbers none the less - and HDL is rocking
Progesterone back down into normal ranges - was high when I was on clomid every day
ALT and GGT suggest liver function is good - which I really wanted to know as my SHBG has been running very high and I had heard that it could be because of liver distress. I think that these numbers would suggest I am not having a liver distress issue.
Looks like my next step is to get a better anti-estrogen than Erase. The online pharma I use has Armidex (anstrozole) but not Aromasin (exemestane) so that seems to make that decision for me.
Recommendations - 0.25 mg Armidex every two days or every three days to start ?
- 07-05-2013, 04:49 PM
08-27-2013, 02:45 PM
Could anyone tell me my exactly people do EOD and E3D with Clomid rather than just doing the same amount but spread across more days? I would think taking a smaller dosage more frequently would reduce ups and downs and things like feeling weepy when seeing kittens and puppies. Also, does it make any difference whatsoever what time of day?
08-27-2013, 03:05 PM
Clomid has a half-life of about 7 days - this means that if you take a dose it takes about 7 days for the amount in your bloodstream to decay to half the initial level. So, whether you take it every day, every two days or every three days does not really affect your ups and downs much.
Since I bought 50 mg tabs - taking half a tab (25 mg) every two days is just easier than trying to quarter the tabs and take every day. Convenience factor only. I am sure that 10 mg a day would work just as well if one had 10 mg tabs.
I have never had the "feeling weepy when seeing kittens and puppies" side effect - thank god ! If anything I have been a tad more aggressive and irritable while on it. I think there are two parts to that, but I don't really have data to back this up - just theorizing.
One is that taking low doses has almost as much effect at increasing testosterone as high doses do - with far less side effects.
Some people are more sensitive to the estrogen like effects of clomid itself - for them the clomid may stimulate the weepy estrogen receptor - and again - lower dose rates would reduce the effect.
I have taken myself down to 25 mg every 3 days and added exemestane 12.5 mg every 3 days in to see if I get a better testosterone estrogen balance- another round of bloodwork coming up in a while. I feel a bit better on this program and think I am getting a bit more body recomposition - though my diet has been especially good of late as well.
I don't think it matters what time of day for the clomid - again the long half-life makes it more of a cumulative effect. Although - apparently the time to peak plasma concentration is 6 hours after ingesting - so ideally maybe mid day so that it is stimulating the pituitary to the max at night - during which time your testosterone natural goes up anyways ? I take mine in the morning - simple - with my other vitamins
10-30-2013, 08:31 PM
11-03-2013, 08:26 AM
Guys, I have been doing 6mg Clomid per day for a good 3 months or so and it has helped me some but I am still having very low sex drive. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of doing blood tests at the moment (working abroad where it is difficult to get access). But I was wondering what you guys thought I might want to try until a few months from now when can see doctor.
My last blood tests were a year and a half ago. I'm 37 now, and back then I had T= 546, Free T 2.59%, and Estradiol 9pg/mL
I think my T had probably gone down further since that test, just based on my sex drive and general energy etc. Anyway, just curious what you guys think I might want to try if I'd like to take a shot at getting some immediate relief. It's killing me having a beautiful girl that wants me and just sorta not having what it takes to give her what she needs desire-wise. I'm wondering if the Clomid might have increased my T but, at same time, increased E enough that there isn't much of a net effect, or what.
I know the Clomid is helping because I generally feel better when I take it. I'm a little reluctant to just start upping the dose, though, because I'm experiencing some of the "female emotion" effects. I will if it's basically my only option though.
12-19-2013, 07:04 AM
What is the reason for adding an aromatase inhibitor to a SERM protocol in case of high E2 levels? Doesn't the SERM prevent the E2 from exerting its effect?
If I read the thread correctly I noticed that none of the persons with high E2 (as a result of their Clomid protocol) suffered from side effects from the E2. So what is the reason for adding the A.I.?
12-19-2013, 10:16 AM
That is a good question and has me thinking a bit. Generally - higher E2 levels are associated with increased body fat and are of course inhibitory to LH release and thereby testosterone production. SERMS tend to stop the effects of E2 - but as I understand it they are "selective" and only stop certain receptors to E2. So clomid seems to be particularly good at stopping estrogen response in the pituitary and thereby increasing LH. Tamoxifen seems to be better for gyno than clomid by being more selective to the receptors in breast tissue.
When my E2 went high while on clomid I was not seeing as much recomposition and body fat loss as I was hoping and so decided that lowering E2 as well via an AI inhibitor may help with some other E2 sides. I think it has - at the expense of other issues ( a bit of dry joints especially in my elbows).
bottom line I think - not an expert - is ideally you want your testosterone and estrogen in the right ratio. The clomid helps getting testosterone up higher by limiting the pituitary response to estrogen - but other parts of your body are optimized when the ratio is right. My 2 cents worth - worth every dime.
04-23-2014, 10:12 AM
I know this is a very old thread but i recently began a protocol similiar to this 25 mg mwf with .5 mg arimadex wednesday. I did not feel better although my labs revealed 710 tt, 46 sghb, and e2 being at 25. Also my liver enzymes were slightly raised. Thoughts?
04-23-2014, 10:34 AM
SHBG is killing Free T. Might try aromasin instead of arimidex.
HCG seems to work better than Clomid for me. I can get total T just as high with Clomid, but can't get Free T in to the 20s like I can with HCG. Going back to HCG and will retest to confirm.
04-23-2014, 03:23 PM
Are you saying that Clomid increases SHBG? I did this regimen for a while myself because I suffer low libido that is probably the result of low T. Although it made my balls big and thus presumably raised my T, it did not increase my libido and in fact may have reduced it. I wonder if elevated SHBG might be the explanation.
Also, are you using HCG as basically an alternative to TRT? If so, I'd be interested in what your reasons for taking that approach are.
04-23-2014, 06:04 PM
I got aromasin on the way anyone know a good dosing protocol? What effect would that have on SHBG since that was my issue. An important note is that my liver enzymes were high which might indicate my liver is having issues metabolizing estrogen thus the liver would make more shbg.
04-23-2014, 06:44 PM
While not directly measured, it was fairly obvious that my shbg was higher on Clomid.
Yes hcg appears to be a viable alternative to trt for me. I was able to get my free t to 20, which seems like a good range for me. I only did this for a few weeks and then switched to Clomid, so we'll see how it works in the long term.
If my nuts are capable of producing, I don't see the downside of letting them do so.
04-23-2014, 06:44 PM
04-23-2014, 06:45 PM
04-23-2014, 06:47 PM
04-23-2014, 06:57 PM
04-25-2014, 02:54 AM
Well the theoretical concern that I have heard is that HCG desensitization of the Leydig cells might be less reversible than suppression caused by exogenous T. Are you not worried about that? I'm basically wondering why HCG isn't the first line treatment rather than Clomid or T. Surely there must be some reason, no?
04-25-2014, 10:04 AM
I hear plenty of people talk about desensitization from HCG, but I've never seen anything even close to proof of this. I never really cared to research it much, because I only take what I need to get the desired result. I don't want to pay for or inject more HCG than I need. If you require a larger dose to get the desired result, who cares. You balls are obviously already desensitized.
Who knows why it's not a more popular first step. If your balls are capable of producing, and you're only taking as much as you need to get them to produce, I don't see any downside. It may not work for everyone or forever, but why more people don't try it is a mystery to me.
Clomid should probably be the first option. It keeps most of the HPTA intact and working. It just didn't work as well as HCG for me personally. I'm going to do a longer evaluation of HCG. In the past it's just been an ancillary to T replacement or a bridge to Clomid for me. I might try Torem or Nolva at some point to see if they work better than the clomid. I've tried them both in the past, but there are some things I would definitely do differently.
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