Clomid 12.5mg m,w,f
- 03-27-2013, 10:18 PM
- 06-20-2013, 02:47 PM
Ok. Been a while since I posted. Tried to bring e2 down with OTC erase. Blood work showed little impact. Wasn't able to get levels below 75. Dr put me on arimidex .25mg e3d. Just got labs back. Have been on this dosing for six weeks along with continuing clomid 12.5mg m,w,f. I'm pretty pleased with both the labs and what it has done for me physically. Dropped five pounds and the mirror says majority of it left my midsection. My sexual function is unreal . I'm stronger and appear to be building lean mass much faster than before (I know it's been a short time but I've had several people close to me comment on this). Here's the labs:
Free test 33 (6.8-21.5)
Total test 1140 (348-1197)
E2 26.3 (7.6-42.6) *** goal was between 20-30.
As an aside, my total cholesterol went below 200 for the first time ever (first tested when I was ~24). Pretty happy with that.
Also, TSH went up to 1.45 from 1.2 with an increase from 100mcg to 112mcg. Any ideas on if arimidex played a part in this would be appreciated (Matrix!).
Going forward I am dropping clomid dosing to 12.5mg e3d, same as arimidex. Goal is to drop tt below 1000 as this is a long term therapy and from what I've read tt ~850 is optimal.
I hope these updates are helpful for people looking into this type of trt option. My Dr has put a number of patients on this since seeing how well I have responded. It's awesome to have a smart, open minded practitioner.
06-24-2013, 05:24 PM
WOW - great results for being on 12.5mg EOD. I may try going that low as well depending on next blood results. For those that may be interested in the effects of chlomid on some people - I am copying a post from another thread in here. My results not quite as dramatic - and I am having more problems with estrogen / SHBG - but I am very glad I tried chlomid and increased endogenous testosterone rather than go directly for exogenous. Wish I had a doctor helping me but my naturopath has been very good / supportive and makes sure I keep getting tests. Am in Canada - TRT doctors here not the greatest and Chlomid is not used for this application it seems as it not an approved drug for TRT.
BELOW IS THE REPEAT POST - SORRY IF I SHOULD HAVE JUST LINKED TO IT BUT I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH POSTS TO BE ALLOWED HYPERLINKS
This is a long post - if you want the summary:
Look into Chlomid - seriously. If your balls and pituatary are still capable of working properly - Chlomid can dramatically raise testosterone levels with minimal side effects if the dose rate is kept low. Research seems to indicate it is safe for long term use at low dose rates.
I am a 53 yr old male - who had simlar problems. Low testosterone - did the full gamet of testing- no observable problems with LH FSH thyroid etc. I could write for hours about this - but spent about a year and a half trying many of the products sold on fitness websites to increase test (Tribulus, longjack, DAA, Fenugreek, Forskoli etc) with no substantial effect. I can post labs over several years if one is interested.
In late December 2012, I recieved some generic chlomid from an online pharmacy - the first two I tried never delivered - the third one did and has subsequently been very reliable. Generic Chlomid is cheaper to take than any of the supplements listed above. In just six weeks, my total, free and bioavailable testosterone went up by over 70 %, taking 25 mg chlomid every other day.
Here were my thoughts on the results ( copying this from another bulletin board I posted on)
1) Pituitary seems to be working as the chlomid drove up LH and FH
2) Balls seem to be working as Testosterone and Free Testosterone went up 70 %
3) Estrogen getting pretty high
4) Thyroid is OK - actually getting better as tests proceed (added iodized salt back into diet and taking thyroid glandular)
5) Sudden sharp drop in AM cortisol is disconcerting - wonder if it was side effect of chlomid
I increased the dose of chlomid to 25 mg every day - and retested in April. HEre is what I posted on other log. Big thing is my Testosterone was up to top of reference range and Bio-available had increased dramatically.
Just a brief update - been on Chlomid for over three months now. Somethings going very well - others need a bit of work yet. I have been avoiding adding an anti-aromatase but looks like I may not be able to get around it. Recent labs
Cortisol 688 (range 200- 690 nmol/L)
Way better than last test result - may have been an anomaly as is consistent with previous test from December.
Total Testosterone 28.3 (range 8.0 - 29.0 nmol/L) Well can't complain
Estradiol 184 (range 0 - 160 pmol/L ) This one I need to work on yet
Progesterone 3.7 (range 0 - 3.0 nmol/L)
Free Testosterone 451 (range 175 - 700 pmol/L) More than double the numbers I used to get
SHBG 60 (range 10 - 55 nmol/L) would love to see this down - but maybe because of high estrogen so anti-aromatase?
DHEA-S 8.4 (range 2.2 - 13.0 umol/L)
BioAvail Testosterone 9.2 (range 4.0 to 16.0) NICE- was below reference range in October
Both Bio Avail and Free Testosterone will of course improve if I can get SHBG down.
Here is a major problem - first time ever tested for Vit D and I take about 3000 IUs daily
Vitamin D 80.5 (range 80 - 200)
Maybe I am a poor absorber - have added a second source (pills in the morning - liquid Vit D in evening ) and taking 6-7000 IU and am going to see how it goes.
All in all - I am very pleased with being on Chlomid. I upped my dose in February from 25 mg EOD to 25 mg daily. I am going to cut back to 25 EOD again and see where I stabilize - figuring the lower dose rate will reduce side effects. Going to try some natural anti-aromatase first before trying other approaches.
I feel better - am more positive, good morning wood, can concentrate better and am seeing some body recomposition that is favorable. So far - the experiment for me has been a success - your mileage may vary. I figure for a 53 yr old guy to get his total T up to 800 with just a SERM is pretty good results.
The high estrogen numbers and fact I had hit the top of scale on Total T made me cut back the chlomid again - so since that time I have been taking 25 mg on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. I have added in 2 pills daily of PES Erase to try to lower estrogen for the last 3-4 weeks. I feel great and have the best morning erections I have had for years - which is usually a good sign that testosterone and estrogen are in balance. I am going to see my doctor and get more bloodwork done in about 10 days.
There are a number of good studies online about Chlomid and long term use in Men for low testosterone - learn to use pubmed is well worth it. Anyways - here is info from one - Title says it all.
Clomiphene citrate is safe and effective for long-term management of hypogonadism.
Moskovic DJ, Katz DJ, Akhavan A, Park K, Mulhall JP.
Sexual & Reproductive Medicine Program, Urology Service, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY, USA.
To assess the efficacy and safety of long-term clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in symptomatic patients with hypogonadism (HG).
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
Serum T, oestradiol and luteinizing hormone (LH) were measured in patients who were treated with CC for over 12 months. Additionally, bone densitometry (BD) results were collected for all patients. Demographic, comorbidity, treatment and Androgen Deficiency in Aging Men (ADAM) score data were also recorded. Comparison was made between baseline and post-treatment variables, and multivariable analysis was conducted to define predictors of successful response to CC. The main outcome measures were predictors of response and long-term results with long-term CC therapy in hypogonadal patients.
The 46 patients (mean age 44 years) had baseline serum testosterone (T) levels of 228 ng/dL. Follow-up T levels were 612 ng/dL at 1 year, 562 ng/dL at 2 years, and 582 ng/dL at 3 years (P < 0.001). Mean femoral neck and lumbar spine BD scores improved significantly. ADAM scores (and responses) fell from a baseline of 7 to a nadir of 3 after 1 year. No adverse events were reported by any patients.
Clomiphene citrate is an effective long-term therapy for HG in appropriate patients. The drug raises T levels substantially in addition to improving other manifestations of HG such as osteopenia/osteoporosis and ADAM symptoms.
06-24-2013, 10:03 PM
Good luck with the erase. i would guess you are going to need a real AI. I would get that taken care of quickly, and then see if you reduce the clomid dose and still keep LH in the top of the range.
06-24-2013, 10:47 PM
06-25-2013, 03:45 PM
I hope you have better luck than I did with erase. Once it failed to bring my e2 down I spent weeks looking for research on any non pharmaceutical options. Couldn't find anything. But .25mg of arimidex had me solid in a few days.
07-01-2013, 06:50 PM
If it continues to work well, do you expect to take it indefinitely? Are you pretty certain that there have been no emotional effects at all? I ask because you said that you don't have problems with being whiney and whatnot, but maybe there are effects that are smaller but still real. And lastly, has your libido improved at all due to the higher testosterone?
07-01-2013, 08:51 PM
Yeah - if all goes well I will plan to take indefinitely. I may try going off clomid for a few months to see if my body keeps up with a high level of testosterone production ( whether I have gotten the boys used to working overtime) but would stay on an anti-estrogen like Erase or Armidex or exemestane to keep estrogen low while doing so. I have had no negative effects that I can tell - if anything I feel more "on", more alert, and a tad more aggressive. I have not noticed any large changes in libido - but do notice erections are easier to come by - it doesn't take much to prompt one. I suspect that the Erase has not been enough to keep my estrogen as low as I would like it - I go in for lab tests on Wednesday morning and will update.
07-01-2013, 09:21 PM
I plan to take until its no longer effective. It's such a low dose the risk of sides is just not there. People have taken doses way higher for long periods with no negatives. It has become a no brainier for me. To answer the other concern, I've never been overly emotional or been "whiney" outside of my normal self. I'm coming up on a year and it has made a tremendous difference in my life. My appearance, stamina, energy and mood have all been greatly improved.
07-04-2013, 07:35 PM
This is an excellent thread. Props to the OP for starting and keeping it relatively updated.
Anyone have any idea how prevalent Clomid is as an alternative to traditional TRT?
07-05-2013, 03:25 PM
Well - I got some of my new labs back. My previous results were obtained while taking 25mg Clomid every day. These results are after I have dropped the clomid to 25mg M, W, F (last two months) and added in two tablets of PES Erase every day (one Month now). I dont have full labs yet but here goes:
The good news (note these are Canada so reference range and units may be different than those you are used to in USA)
ALT 25 U/L range 1 - 60
GGT 16 U/L range 11-63
Total Cholesterol 4.13 mmol/L (range 4.2 - 5.2)
Triglycerides 0.58 mmol/L (range 0.60-2.30)
HDL 1.46 mmol?L (range >=0.91)
LDL 2.40 mmol/L (range 2.2 - 3.4)
The Not-So-Good News
Cortisol AM 596 nmol/l (range 200 - 690)
Estradiol 172 pmol/L (range 0 - 160)
LH 11 IU/L (range 1 - 9)
Progesterone 2.7 nmol/L (range 0 - 3.0)
Total Testosterone 20.5 nmol/L (range 8.0 - 29.0)
I have no results yet for SHBG, Free Testosterone, BioAvailable Testosterone. DHEA-S, or IGF-1
SO ... the PES Erase has seemingly done virtually nothing for my estradiol - if anything my ratio of total testosterone to estradiol has gotten worse in the one month I have been taking Erase. My Testosterone numbers could have been a bit lower on this morning for a number of reasons
(1 - this test was done while fasted as required for lipids test, previous test was not
2 - I was up really early (5 AM ) and test was done at 7:30 - previous test was done 1 hr after waking or so
3 - I went jogging that morning - something I did not do before the previous test)
Lipids numbers are a bit low on Triglycerides and Total Cholesterol - which is interesting as I eat a lot of fat ( typical breakfast is 3 egss, 4 oz steak and a sweet potato). I think these are healthy numbers none the less - and HDL is rocking
Progesterone back down into normal ranges - was high when I was on clomid every day
ALT and GGT suggest liver function is good - which I really wanted to know as my SHBG has been running very high and I had heard that it could be because of liver distress. I think that these numbers would suggest I am not having a liver distress issue.
Looks like my next step is to get a better anti-estrogen than Erase. The online pharma I use has Armidex (anstrozole) but not Aromasin (exemestane) so that seems to make that decision for me.
Recommendations - 0.25 mg Armidex every two days or every three days to start ?
07-05-2013, 04:49 PM
08-27-2013, 02:45 PM
Could anyone tell me my exactly people do EOD and E3D with Clomid rather than just doing the same amount but spread across more days? I would think taking a smaller dosage more frequently would reduce ups and downs and things like feeling weepy when seeing kittens and puppies. Also, does it make any difference whatsoever what time of day?
08-27-2013, 03:05 PM
Clomid has a half-life of about 7 days - this means that if you take a dose it takes about 7 days for the amount in your bloodstream to decay to half the initial level. So, whether you take it every day, every two days or every three days does not really affect your ups and downs much.
Since I bought 50 mg tabs - taking half a tab (25 mg) every two days is just easier than trying to quarter the tabs and take every day. Convenience factor only. I am sure that 10 mg a day would work just as well if one had 10 mg tabs.
I have never had the "feeling weepy when seeing kittens and puppies" side effect - thank god ! If anything I have been a tad more aggressive and irritable while on it. I think there are two parts to that, but I don't really have data to back this up - just theorizing.
One is that taking low doses has almost as much effect at increasing testosterone as high doses do - with far less side effects.
Some people are more sensitive to the estrogen like effects of clomid itself - for them the clomid may stimulate the weepy estrogen receptor - and again - lower dose rates would reduce the effect.
I have taken myself down to 25 mg every 3 days and added exemestane 12.5 mg every 3 days in to see if I get a better testosterone estrogen balance- another round of bloodwork coming up in a while. I feel a bit better on this program and think I am getting a bit more body recomposition - though my diet has been especially good of late as well.
I don't think it matters what time of day for the clomid - again the long half-life makes it more of a cumulative effect. Although - apparently the time to peak plasma concentration is 6 hours after ingesting - so ideally maybe mid day so that it is stimulating the pituitary to the max at night - during which time your testosterone natural goes up anyways ? I take mine in the morning - simple - with my other vitamins
10-30-2013, 08:31 PM
11-03-2013, 08:26 AM
Guys, I have been doing 6mg Clomid per day for a good 3 months or so and it has helped me some but I am still having very low sex drive. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of doing blood tests at the moment (working abroad where it is difficult to get access). But I was wondering what you guys thought I might want to try until a few months from now when can see doctor.
My last blood tests were a year and a half ago. I'm 37 now, and back then I had T= 546, Free T 2.59%, and Estradiol 9pg/mL
I think my T had probably gone down further since that test, just based on my sex drive and general energy etc. Anyway, just curious what you guys think I might want to try if I'd like to take a shot at getting some immediate relief. It's killing me having a beautiful girl that wants me and just sorta not having what it takes to give her what she needs desire-wise. I'm wondering if the Clomid might have increased my T but, at same time, increased E enough that there isn't much of a net effect, or what.
I know the Clomid is helping because I generally feel better when I take it. I'm a little reluctant to just start upping the dose, though, because I'm experiencing some of the "female emotion" effects. I will if it's basically my only option though.
12-19-2013, 07:04 AM
What is the reason for adding an aromatase inhibitor to a SERM protocol in case of high E2 levels? Doesn't the SERM prevent the E2 from exerting its effect?
If I read the thread correctly I noticed that none of the persons with high E2 (as a result of their Clomid protocol) suffered from side effects from the E2. So what is the reason for adding the A.I.?
12-19-2013, 10:16 AM
That is a good question and has me thinking a bit. Generally - higher E2 levels are associated with increased body fat and are of course inhibitory to LH release and thereby testosterone production. SERMS tend to stop the effects of E2 - but as I understand it they are "selective" and only stop certain receptors to E2. So clomid seems to be particularly good at stopping estrogen response in the pituitary and thereby increasing LH. Tamoxifen seems to be better for gyno than clomid by being more selective to the receptors in breast tissue.
When my E2 went high while on clomid I was not seeing as much recomposition and body fat loss as I was hoping and so decided that lowering E2 as well via an AI inhibitor may help with some other E2 sides. I think it has - at the expense of other issues ( a bit of dry joints especially in my elbows).
bottom line I think - not an expert - is ideally you want your testosterone and estrogen in the right ratio. The clomid helps getting testosterone up higher by limiting the pituitary response to estrogen - but other parts of your body are optimized when the ratio is right. My 2 cents worth - worth every dime.
04-23-2014, 10:12 AM
I know this is a very old thread but i recently began a protocol similiar to this 25 mg mwf with .5 mg arimadex wednesday. I did not feel better although my labs revealed 710 tt, 46 sghb, and e2 being at 25. Also my liver enzymes were slightly raised. Thoughts?
04-23-2014, 10:34 AM
SHBG is killing Free T. Might try aromasin instead of arimidex.
HCG seems to work better than Clomid for me. I can get total T just as high with Clomid, but can't get Free T in to the 20s like I can with HCG. Going back to HCG and will retest to confirm.
04-23-2014, 03:23 PM
Are you saying that Clomid increases SHBG? I did this regimen for a while myself because I suffer low libido that is probably the result of low T. Although it made my balls big and thus presumably raised my T, it did not increase my libido and in fact may have reduced it. I wonder if elevated SHBG might be the explanation.
Also, are you using HCG as basically an alternative to TRT? If so, I'd be interested in what your reasons for taking that approach are.
04-23-2014, 06:04 PM
I got aromasin on the way anyone know a good dosing protocol? What effect would that have on SHBG since that was my issue. An important note is that my liver enzymes were high which might indicate my liver is having issues metabolizing estrogen thus the liver would make more shbg.
04-23-2014, 06:44 PM
While not directly measured, it was fairly obvious that my shbg was higher on Clomid.
Yes hcg appears to be a viable alternative to trt for me. I was able to get my free t to 20, which seems like a good range for me. I only did this for a few weeks and then switched to Clomid, so we'll see how it works in the long term.
If my nuts are capable of producing, I don't see the downside of letting them do so.
04-23-2014, 06:44 PM
04-23-2014, 06:45 PM
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