Considering taking the plunge

[napalm]

Well I think the time has come for me to seriously consider starting TRT. For years I've had the same symptoms as many of you - lethargy, decreased libido and all the others that come w low T. I went to see an endo - who by the way is really into research and has many publications, mostly in diabetes, but a good portion of his practice is also HRT.

He gave me a battery of tests, ITT, MRI and a few others and the ITT showed multiple hormonal deficiencies. The dx was hypopituitarism (inb4 matrix says 'YOU NEED TO FIND OUT WHY). He bases the dx on prior head trauma - 2 skull fractures and approx 10 concussions. After doing a ton of reading, this is not an uncommon cause of hypopituitarism.

Test was 213 in feb. I am also GH deficient big time. This kind of confuses me because I'm still able to make gains with just hard work and a decent diet - no anabolics of any kind. He wants me to start taking GH, and has offered Axiron for the test deficiency - possibly moving to injections in the future.

I've done a ton of reading on Axiron, including the clinical trials, it has what I think are extreme plusses and minuses. I'm interested in everyones thoughts on the product. I did a search of the site and there's not much here.

Thanks

 

[rfarns01]

I have been on Androgel, Testim and Axiron

Androgel (10g) never got my test level over 425, Testim (10g) increased up to 843 but with very high e2 and still felt like I had low T. Axiron after 2 months has my level up to 823 although e2 is @ 53. I feel very good and treating the e2.

Testim stinks like an old womens musk, so try the Axiron and as you said switch to shots if needed later.

Don't believe the negative reports that Axiron (120ml) cannot get your levels high I am proof that it can. Would bet I am even higher now.

 

[The Matrix]

Well I think the time has come for me to seriously consider starting TRT. For years I've had the same symptoms as many of you - lethargy, decreased libido and all the others that come w low T. I went to see an endo - who by the way is really into research and has many publications, mostly in diabetes, but a good portion of his practice is also HRT.

He gave me a battery of tests, ITT, MRI and a few others and the ITT showed multiple hormonal deficiencies. The dx was hypopituitarism (inb4 matrix says 'YOU NEED TO FIND OUT WHY). He bases the dx on prior head trauma - 2 skull fractures and approx 10 concussions. After doing a ton of reading, this is not an uncommon cause of hypopituitarism.

Test was 213 in feb. I am also GH deficient big time. This kind of confuses me because I'm still able to make gains with just hard work and a decent diet - no anabolics of any kind. He wants me to start taking GH, and has offered Axiron for the test deficiency - possibly moving to injections in the future.

I've done a ton of reading on Axiron, including the clinical trials, it has what I think are extreme plusses and minuses. I'm interested in everyones thoughts on the product. I did a search of the site and there's not much here.

Thanks

Napalm,
At 48 and with those levels you are opening the doors up to greater chances of CVD, dementia, and other issues. What I am suggesting is to find out other imbalances which will complement the TRT to work more effectively. One can only imagine what the capacity is when a person has their immune, endocrine,neurological, and detoxification system firing at health capacity. In older guys I am not against TRT, but medical professionals need to look out side the box at other systems to treat the person a whole and not focus on one area. What I am seeing from this is guys put on TRT and having optimal levels, but finding biological markers of major health concerned which have been over looked. The biggest thing I find is the huge amount of hidden inflammation which is being masked by TRT in older and now younger guys. Finding 20 year olds with high homocysteine levels, but great hormones levels because they are on TRT. You have good hormones levels, but will have signifcany increased of having heart attack younger in life. Prime example pmgamer, He was on HRT for decades, few years ago he had heart issue which almost killed him. If the Dr would have checked other levels several years prior this could have been avoided. I can bank on it that he has MTHFR 677 and 1293c mutuation which is noted for causing this condition which is purely genetic. My job with Dr's is to get a head of the curve by ruling all these type of imbalances out so the person can have a good long and healthy life where they do not have to draining the health care systems of million and even billions of dollars. Instead of being a threat to medical professional (as some may perceive) the approach I believe in is only going to be a huge asset in helping the national heath care crisis. I would like to see the data on how much it cost for an average diabetic over a course of a lifetime from 40 years till death. Rough estimate your probably talking million or more..

The secret to TD is you have to rotate them. Just from suggesting to Dr to start doing this they have seen a huge jump in hormones levels which where stagnant for quite some time. I have documented cases from Dr's where the levels have double using the same dosage with the same batch of gels. This has worked for androgel and well as compounded gels ad creams. From reading the boards no dr is even suggesting this simple adjustment which I found to work wonders in vast majority of cases.

 

[napalm]

Matrix, I'm at work now. I'll address your post later. And yours to, new guy. Not enough time for more than a sentence.

Txs

 

[Gutterpump]

Welcome to the club! You're making the right decision. Just be ready for the rollercoaster ride. It's tough to keep things very consistent, but overall things are far better than before for me. Over time you will become very aware of minor changes in protocol and how it effects you, without even needing bloodwork.

I would definitely suggest shots if you convert DHT properly on them. I used to use creams, it was great, but kind of a hassle to use daily, transference was a problem for me too. I prefer shots, but I take a small dose of androhard to keep DHT up since I don't convert test shots to DHT as well as I do with creams. I'd rather shoot twice a week than use creams 1-2 times per day and have to explain what it is while traveling too since it's considered a liquid. I only carry on HRT meds and never check them in while traveling. You'll figure it out.

 

[The Matrix]

Welcome to the club! You're making the right decision. Just be ready for the rollercoaster ride. It's tough to keep things very consistent, but overall things are far better than before for me. Over time you will become very aware of minor changes in protocol and how it effects you, without even needing bloodwork.

I would definitely suggest shots if you convert DHT properly on them. I used to use creams, it was great, but kind of a hassle to use daily, transference was a problem for me too. I prefer shots, but I take a small dose of androhard to keep DHT up since I don't convert test shots to DHT as well as I do with creams. I'd rather shoot twice a week than use creams 1-2 times per day and have to explain what it is while traveling too since it's considered a liquid. I only carry on HRT meds and never check them in while traveling. You'll figure it out.

Protocols which are based on person's bioindividuality are the best way to get the optimal results. One must have a compassion and competent medical profession or even a group of professionals working in unity to benefit the person. There is no other successful approach I have found..

 

[napalm]

I have been on Androgel, Testim and Axiron

Androgel (10g) never got my test level over 425, Testim (10g) increased up to 843 but with very high e2 and still felt like I had low T. Axiron after 2 months has my level up to 823 although e2 is @ 53. I feel very good and treating the e2.

Testim stinks like an old womens musk, so try the Axiron and as you said switch to shots if needed later.

Don't believe the negative reports that Axiron (120ml) cannot get your levels high I am proof that it can. Would bet I am even higher now.

welcome new guy, this is encouraging. he wants me on 60/day to start - 2 pumps. what was the difference in your e2 going from androgel to axiron? also, what is your experience with the application? from what i've read, the axiron is almost like water, has it been a problem for you? i'd like to hear as much as you care to share about your experience so far. where in detroit are you?

Napalm,
At 48 and with those levels you are opening the doors up to greater chances of CVD, dementia, and other issues. What I am suggesting is to find out other imbalances which will complement the TRT to work more effectively.

please expound on this a little - with punctuation please (j/k)!! srs, besides the test and gh, i'm low tsh and cortisol. he's not concerned about the tsh, he thinks that once the other hormones come up to par, this will prolly take care of itself. not sure how you come to the cvd and dementia. not disagreeing, but i'd like to hear more.

What I am seeing from this is guys put on TRT and having optimal levels, but finding biological markers of major health concerned which have been over looked. The biggest thing I find is the huge amount of hidden inflammation which is being masked by TRT in older and now younger guys. Finding 20 year olds with high homocysteine levels, but great hormones levels because they are on TRT. You have good hormones levels, but will have signifcany increased of having heart attack younger in life.

you lost me here dude, obv i don't have 'good' hormone levels. please elaborate, short and succinct please.

The secret to TD is you have to rotate them.

you don't rotate axiron, it goes under the armpits - i'm a little confused here - that's nothing new. txs for your input.

Welcome to the club! You're making the right decision. Just be ready for the rollercoaster ride. It's tough to keep things very consistent, but overall things are far better than before for me. Over time you will become very aware of minor changes in protocol and how it effects you, without even needing bloodwork.

I would definitely suggest shots if you convert DHT properly on them. I used to use creams, it was great, but kind of a hassle to use daily, transference was a problem for me too. I prefer shots, but I take a small dose of androhard to keep DHT up since I don't convert test shots to DHT as well as I do with creams. I'd rather shoot twice a week than use creams 1-2 times per day and have to explain what it is while traveling too since it's considered a liquid. I only carry on HRT meds and never check them in while traveling. You'll figure it out.

what's up gutter? glad to hear your rehab is going great. sounds like you're far ahead of the game. this is one of the things that's confusing me about the axiron, am i going to have swings applying it daily? i guess it's all related to absorption. i need to find more info regarding dht and axiron.

the biggest thing that has me confused about all of this is the gh. as i said, i have been making gains since my shoulder repair last year. he want's me to start w .5 iu's, obv not enough to have an impact on my training, but he thinks that in combo with the increase in test my symptoms will get better. this is one area i have to do more research on.

txs everyone, keep the comments coming...

 

[rfarns01]

Napalm, the Axiron is like water just take your time putting it on, you will drip some from time to time. On 60 ml you will probably feel great the first week or two, then you may crash, if this happens try and get your doctor to increase the dose to at least 90 ml.

E2 on Androgel was always in the 30's but again I was only getting up in the 400 range. Old doctor would never do a E2 check on Testim so I am guessing my E2 was very high based on how I felt.

I am in the Pontiac/Waterford Area.

 

[Gutterpump]

Roller coaster in regards to finding your sweet spot. It's different for everyone, and the balancing act can take a while.

 

[The Matrix]

Napalm, the Axiron is like water just take your time putting it on, you will drip some from time to time. On 60 ml you will probably feel great the first week or two, then you may crash, if this happens try and get your doctor to increase the dose to at least 90 ml.

E2 on Androgel was always in the 30's but again I was only getting up in the 400 range. Old doctor would never do a E2 check on Testim so I am guessing my E2 was very high based on how I felt.

I am in the Pontiac/Waterford Area.

One swipe under each arm is the best other wise putting it on in layers is going to decrease absorption significantly

 

[napalm]

One swipe under each arm is the best other wise putting it on in layers is going to decrease absorption significantly

I'm going to try to find some info today re the absorption of axiron, and how it compares to creams.

 

[The Matrix]

I'm going to try to find some info today re the absorption of axiron, and how it compares to creams.

Response from Dr's patient case we have been working on
Shawn,

If you look at the literature, two swipes (one under each armpit) is just a good – and sometimes better – than multiple swipes on a single arm due to the first contact drying and blocking the second contact. So I dose morning and evening two swipes. Also, I use a spray deodorant. If you don’t you get a real mess under the pits that sticks your hair together and hurts like hell as the they are pulled when you raise you arms. With double dosing, you won’t reach the levels of single dosing with 7.5 or 10g of Testim, nor will you ever reach the higher DHT levels due to the higher concentration and lower surface area of Axiron.

One thing I have heard many are doing is single squirt and swipe under each arm and then a single squirt and swipe on the intercostals and rub the stuff in like you would Testim. Some do it on both sides and get the full dose of four full swipes, but this is off label and not how the product is to be used, plus it negates one plus of the product that you remove the contact issue with other people.

When swiping, I start at the top of the pit and hold the applicator almost vertical (a slight angle towards the pit, maybe about 10-20 degrees. The first swipe starts out with little pressure (the applicator container is very rubbery and flexible – if you push too hard the stuff just squirts out 360 degrees). The pressure is enough to begin to bend the applicator edge up on the side that is sliding down as this stops spillage that will just drain down the side of your body . As you move down slowly increase the pressure, then move up with the same slightly increased pressure up (this time the upper part of the applicator will bend down a bit). When you feel the stuff is mostly out of the applicator (you pit will feel wet) then push hard and move up and down a few times and then push and press your elbow down to your side for about 30 seconds and then allow your arm to just hang. You will dry in under five minutes and can then use the spray.

For me I first saw T levels of 450 with three swipes in the morning. The data is showing I won’t see much more or may even see a drop if I use four. Now I do two morning and two evening but I have not been measured yet. I can say this, my weight lifting and cardio are reduced from the Testim. I am going to try the two swipes under arm and then just rub the equivalent of two swipes on intercostals to see if I get a bump.

 

[napalm]

Matrix, excellent info from real life. Txs bro,

 

[rfarns01]

I would like to see data that proves applying multiple swipes of Axiron will not produce high levels of testosterone, as stated in one of my post I swipe twice under each arm each morning (120ml) and last BW was 823, this is almost equal to when I was using Testim 10g and was up to 843 over a longer period of time. The only data I can find is the 7 day study on the Axiron web site, but again this is only 7 days of course the results were not great.

I do like the idea of doing a swipe under each arm in the morning and repeating later that day, or putting on other parts of the body as suggested, but is there any reason to go any higher than 823? This is TRT and not Anabolic correct?

I also switched to spray deodorant which works great with Axiron as long as you take your time and let it dry.

 

[The Matrix]

I would like to see data that proves applying multiple swipes of Axiron will not produce high levels of testosterone, as stated in one of my post I swipe twice under each arm each morning (120ml) and last BW was 823, this is almost equal to when I was using Testim 10g and was up to 843 over a longer period of time. The only data I can find is the 7 day study on the Axiron web site, but again this is only 7 days of course the results were not great.

I do like the idea of doing a swipe under each arm in the morning and repeating later that day, or putting on other parts of the body as suggested, but is there any reason to go any higher than 823? This is TRT and not Anabolic correct?

I also switched to spray deodorant which works great with Axiron as long as you take your time and let it dry.

823 is good provided e2 and SHBG is in check hormonally, then if your GH levels are low then the T is being used to compensate for low GH levels. Then one needs to factor in thyroid and adrenals, then neurotransmitters to complete the picture for good healthy balance

 

[napalm]

I would like to see data that proves applying multiple swipes of Axiron will not produce high levels of testosterone, as stated in one of my post I swipe twice under each arm each morning (120ml) and last BW was 823, this is almost equal to when I was using Testim 10g and was up to 843 over a longer period of time. The only data I can find is the 7 day study on the Axiron web site, but again this is only 7 days of course the results were not great.

I do like the idea of doing a swipe under each arm in the morning and repeating later that day, or putting on other parts of the body as suggested, but is there any reason to go any higher than 823? This is TRT and not Anabolic correct?

I also switched to spray deodorant which works great with Axiron as long as you take your time and let it dry.

Yeah, I saw those charts on the axiron website and a couple other places. To me, it looked it looked like no matter what dose you were on, your level would drop to approximately 350 or so

 

[napalm]

Update: insurance won't pay for the axiron, they want me to use androgel. I informed my endo's nurse that I'm concerned about the contact issues (wife and daughter) and she's going to talk to him about me starting test cyp...

 

[The Matrix]

Update: insurance won't pay for the axiron, they want me to use androgel. I informed my endo's nurse that I'm concerned about the contact issues (wife and daughter) and she's going to talk to him about me starting test cyp...

Excellent,
Recommended not start out on AI right away. I would suggest 40 mgs 2 times a week to start then increase upwards. Good luck

 

[napalm]

Excellent,
Recommended not start out on AI right away. I would suggest 40 mgs 2 times a week to start then increase upwards. Good luck

Yeah, she initially said injections every 2 weeks, I came back with how about half the dose every week? That's one of the things she's talking to him about. I like the guy, I don't think he'll have a problem with it. I was also going to talk to him about an AI, we'll see how it goes...

 

[Corbin980]

Gels sont work unless you use something like dmso to help transmission

 

[napalm]

first pin = done...100 mg. didn't hurt - yet

man that s.hit is thick

 

[Gutterpump]

Are you using slin pins? that's all I use, into the delts, .5" pin

 

[napalm]

Are you using slin pins? that's all I use, into the delts, .5" pin

what's up gutter? nah, they gave me 5/8 inch 22 gauge. i get to the freakin pharmacy and they hand me just the cyp. i look at her and say, and i quote - what the hell am i supposed to do with this, it's an injectable! she looks at me puzzled and i tell her um, i'm gonna need needles don't you think? her: well there's nothing here that says i'm supposed to give you needles. i'm like, here's the number, call the endo...

long story short, i get the needles - get this, i paid 7 bucks for the cyp, and 13 for the needles!

i'll be calling the pharmacy benefit folks tomorrow to complain that the needles cost more than the drug...morons

i went into my quad, a little sore now but no big deal...

 

[Gutterpump]

I order my pins online. 0/5" 30 or 31 gauge. Let me know if you want help finding a place to get them from. They'll never give slin pins with test at a pharmacy. No doctor will do this. I tried to speak to mine ages ago and she laughed. Joke's on her though, another reason why endo's aren't great at TRT.