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Anti-aging doctors

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    Anti-aging doctors


    I'm a young guy, I turn 30 in may, and I've been experiencing issues with stress, PE, possible adrenal fatigue, significantly reduced cognitive function, hair loss and graying, and gradual increase in visceral fat gain, basically I am getting older, but I have good muscle mass and test levels in the 600s as per last bloodwork

    So started doing research about anti-aging docs hoping to get see one and get labs done to evaluate any possible imbalances or set my mind at ease, discuss family medical history, possible plans for future etc, however these places have enormous initial fees and bad reviews on complaint sites

    Anyone have experience with these places? I live in Philadelphia area and did find a clinic hear, but don't want to pay 1500 to have a doc sell me 400 vitamins blends

    The whole idea of this was I wanted to see if I was a candidate now or in the future for HGH, or anything else to get my Johnson working better and just overall happier and healthier

    I want to stay young and healthy looking and feeling, and figured if low dose HGH could help or I wanted to at least research it, however speaking to these doctors involves big hoops and very expensive up front tests

    Any experiences with these type of doctors?

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    They might give you test, dunno about hgh though.
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    Do you just want hormones or do you want to fix the problems in your life? To me it sounds like you wont find the fix at an anti aging clinic when its your lifestyle that needs to be fixed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by v4lu3s
    Do you just want hormones or do you want to fix the problems in your life? To me it sounds like you wont find the fix at an anti aging clinic when its your lifestyle that needs to be fixed.
    Tell me what to fix

    I have a great job that provides for my family, I eat 6-7 meals everyday and avoid all processed grains and saturated fats, ear mostly meats veggies fruits and whole grains, exercise 3-5 times a week, have a beautiful child and a girlfriend who will be my wide soon, also go to night school for a law program

    I'm a happy man
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelheaddev
    They might give you test, dunno about hgh though.
    Yeah, don't think I need that since my test levels are fine, not wanting to deal with as well, of I wanted test I wouldn't go this route

    I want to be able to speak with a doctor, but I have a hard time paying so much money up front

    If I could go in a talk to them, discuss everything, then maybe get expensive testing I would be cool with that
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydollars View Post
    Yeah, don't think I need that since my test levels are fine, not wanting to deal with as well, of I wanted test I wouldn't go this route

    I want to be able to speak with a doctor, but I have a hard time paying so much money up front

    If I could go in a talk to them, discuss everything, then maybe get expensive testing I would be cool with that
    Since philly is my stomping grounds and just about every one in the bodybuilding and health industry, I can tell you these Dr's are out for one thing and one thing only MONEY. If a dr referred me his patient with 600 TT and was asking about hrt. It would be obvious what there real intent was (enhanced Proformance) which HRT is not all about. Seeing you are from philly and I know all of these Dr's are either cengenetics, bodylogic MD, or Renu man they are all about the money and not your well being. Most logical explaination is look for the root cause instead of chasing hormones like most people do on line. In 1000's of cases I have dealt relative to yours its not hormones which is the issue but something totally out side the box. You are justing making a DR very rich who has little clue to what is really going on with you.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    don't go to bodylogic, dr varano in that area he ripped me off for $1000, he don't know what the F he's talking about!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydollars View Post
    Tell me what to fix

    I have a great job that provides for my family, I eat 6-7 meals everyday and avoid all processed grains and saturated fats, ear mostly meats veggies fruits and whole grains, exercise 3-5 times a week, have a beautiful child and a girlfriend who will be my wide soon, also go to night school for a law program

    I'm a happy man

    Well that's quite a contrast to

    I've been experiencing issues with stress, PE, possible adrenal fatigue, significantly reduced cognitive function, hair loss and graying, and gradual increase in visceral fat gain,


    so what is it? happy or stressed?

    if you feel that you have adrenal fatigue then address that issue rather than going to get on hgh and testosterone. if you have reduced cognitive function that could be related to stress that you may or may not have.
    as far as hair loss and graying maybe you have a problem...or maybe you just are prone to hair loss and early greying. i know guys in their late 20s who have graying, and i have seen my cousin have a receding hairline starting at age 25...
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    Great answers guys, Matrix thanks for the advice

    I'll stay away from these doctors
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    Quote Originally Posted by v4lu3s

    Well that's quite a contrast to
    So you can't be happy and experience stress and ding dong issues, thanks
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    so stress issues do not affect your health is what you are saying?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydollars View Post
    So you can't be happy and experience stress and ding dong issues, thanks
    I'm in philly and work with a few Dr's in the system, but 30 years old I be looking at the reason you need T in the first place because it may most likely be masking something deeper and more insidious as we commonly seen by run of the mill Anti aging specialist. Sorry but we are not a testosterone mill unfortunately, but rather look for imbalances which may affect you later on in your life. When people are playing with hormones now will only be playing later on with other health issue which they had no idea where even there. I see it on a daily basis.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix
    I'm in philly and work with a few Dr's in the system, but 30 years old I be looking at the reason you need T in the first place because it may most likely be masking something deeper and more insidious as we commonly seen by run of the mill Anti aging specialist. Sorry but we are not a testosterone mill unfortunately, but rather look for imbalances which may affect you later on in your life. When people are playing with hormones now will only be playing later on with other health issue which they had no idea where even there. I see it on a daily basis.
    I want to be 100% clear, I never said I wanted a script for T, unless I needed it, but my bloodwork shows its high enough, I said that a few time, I just want to see a legit doctor that does not cost me a few thousand dollars to see and then starting pushing products down my neck that the pharmacy he works with sells

    What I wanted was a progressive doctor who could a wide array of testing, look over all levels of hormones lipids etc and see how I'm doing now or what I need to do in the future, when I looked up anti aging info there where a ton of symptoms listed that I experience that the doctors claim to "fix", so naturally I'm investigating

    I like to practice preventative measures, identify issues before they ate serious, not treat something after it is already a problem

    Matrix your answers are very helpful, I think you misunderstood my purpose, I know it's easy enough to find a steroid doc, not looking for that
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydollars View Post
    I want to be 100% clear, I never said I wanted a script for T, unless I needed it, but my bloodwork shows its high enough, I said that a few time, I just want to see a legit doctor that does not cost me a few thousand dollars to see and then starting pushing products down my neck that the pharmacy he works with sells

    What I wanted was a progressive doctor who could a wide array of testing, look over all levels of hormones lipids etc and see how I'm doing now or what I need to do in the future, when I looked up anti aging info there where a ton of symptoms listed that I experience that the doctors claim to "fix", so naturally I'm investigating

    I like to practice preventative measures, identify issues before they ate serious, not treat something after it is already a problem

    Matrix your answers are very helpful, I think you misunderstood my purpose, I know it's easy enough to find a steroid doc, not looking for that
    Then pm me.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix

    Then pm me.
    Actually tried and said full
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    Matrix, my account is being weird and can't send PMs, can you send one, thanks
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    Is that doctor you reference in your first post have the initials RM?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    Is that doctor you reference in your first post have the initials RM?
    I know majority of these Dr's and they are all out for money.
    You can "fix" a flat tire by plugging the hole or by solving the under lying cause you be to get a new tire.
    When I hear the word "fix", "heal", "cure", ect I tell the people to run the other way really fast. You want to "rebalance", "optimize", "Get well vs better" A person can be better, but will they ever be well?
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    I know majority of these Dr's and they are all out for money. You can "fix" a flat tire by plugging the hole or by solving the under lying cause you be to get a new tire. When I hear the word "fix", "heal", "cure", ect I tell the people to run the other way really fast. You want to "rebalance", "optimize", "Get well vs better" A person can be better, but will they ever be well?
    I would think a lay person interfering with physicianmpatieny relationship or contradicting an MD's medical advise is not ethical. I have a law degree and know that a lay person advising another layperson contrary to their lawyer's advice can technically be construed as unauthorized practice of law. I spent 12 years representing doctors and hospitals and part of out Q&A was to ensure nurses dis not contradict or pass judgment on doctors' orders directly to the patient as that was interference with physician patient relationship and the unauthorized practice of medicine. Hospital employees are required to go directly to the physician if their is a problem or contraindication.

    Not all anti aging doctors are a rip off. Some do a really good job and most will not write GH. I know several that spend hours researching their patients and utilize networks to run issues by large groups if doctors in various specialities. Some are expensive and sine are not (actually take insurance) but they usually cater to wealthy individuals seeking fountain of youth and most if their patients seem extremely happy.One I know in Philedelphia and office in Atlantic City is awesome. Very, very patient and thorough. Very difficult to see and works with a lot of overweight doctors and people in the medical profession.

    What exactly is your educational background that warrants you telling people to "stay away" from their doctor. Also, choice if words is a matter of semantics. I know very intelligent doctors in their respective fields who don't have a great grasp on the English language and some surfer doctors that use very laid back vernacular with their patients.

    If you are hunting GH in addition to test, you will pay out the nose for a whole battery of testing and monitoring. I think this is prudent given what you will be taking. If you just want general anti-aging, doctors typically evaluate absorption/digestion, diet, immune system, check sed rate/inflamation, bf, bone density, maybe an echo, and assess general health and patients complaints of lethargy, weakness and etc. They then address what needs to be addressed. They typically don't sell a lot of vitamins except in the form of IVs which I have always found beneficial.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    I would think a lay person interfering with physicianmpatieny relationship or contradicting an MD's medical advise is not ethical. I have a law degree and know that a lay person advising another layperson contrary to their lawyer's advice can technically be construed as unauthorized practice of law. I spent 12 years representing doctors and hospitals and part of out Q&A was to ensure nurses dis not contradict or pass judgment on doctors' orders directly to the patient as that was interference with physician patient relationship and the unauthorized practice of medicine. Hospital employees are required to go directly to the physician if their is a problem or contraindication.

    Not all anti aging doctors are a rip off. Some do a really good job and most will not write GH. I know several that spend hours researching their patients and utilize networks to run issues by large groups if doctors in various specialities. Some are expensive and sine are not (actually take insurance) but they usually cater to wealthy individuals seeking fountain of youth and most if their patients seem extremely happy.One I know in Philedelphia and office in Atlantic City is awesome. Very, very patient and thorough. Very difficult to see and works with a lot of overweight doctors and people in the medical profession.

    What exactly is your educational background that warrants you telling people to "stay away" from their doctor. Also, choice if words is a matter of semantics. I know very intelligent doctors in their respective fields who don't have a great grasp on the English language and some surfer doctors that use very laid back vernacular with their patients.

    If you are hunting GH in addition to test, you will pay out the nose for a whole battery of testing and monitoring. I think this is prudent given what you will be taking. If you just want general anti-aging, doctors typically evaluate absorption/digestion, diet, immune system, check sed rate/inflamation, bf, bone density, maybe an echo, and assess general health and patients complaints of lethargy, weakness and etc. They then address what needs to be addressed. They typically don't sell a lot of vitamins except in the form of IVs which I have always found beneficial.
    RE read It says "majority" of these Dr's are out for money NOT ALL. When ever it says antigaing I suggest people to do their research as one of the antiaging clinics is now under federal investigation. I have talked to Russel silverman from ceregenics he seems to be on a ball. I had a conference with him one of his patients where I was in presence of other drs where he was an abnormal case. It was very simple issue which was resolved in 5-10 minutes since I have seen it numerous time in a clinical setting and also experienced my self. 90% of the issues presented on these forums I have been through on a personal level and over come them. I take this knowledge apply it to numerous dr's on complex cases. I am in process of landing a huge contract a group of medical professionals down south where cases will be out sourced to me for further research..All I to is do the research and give my evaluations of what needs to be further evaluated and possible treatment suggestions. Through my finding and presentations to the Dr it only helps them to make a better educated approach to get better therapeutic out come.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    RE read It says "majority" of these Dr's are out for money NOT ALL. When ever it says antigaing I suggest people to do their research as one of the antiaging clinics is now under federal investigation. I have talked to Russel silverman from ceregenics he seems to be on a ball. I had a conference with him one of his patients where I was in presence of other drs where he was an abnormal case. It was very simple issue which was resolved in 5-10 minutes since I have seen it numerous time in a clinical setting and also experienced my self. 90% of the issues presented on these forums I have been through on a personal level and over come them. I take this knowledge apply it to numerous dr's on complex cases. I am in process of landing a huge contract a group of medical professionals down south where cases will be out sourced to me for further research..All I to is do the research and give my evaluations of what needs to be further evaluated and possible treatment suggestions. Through my finding and presentations to the Dr it only helps them to make a better educated approach to get better therapeutic out come.
    It's amazing to me how you can "Consult" with all these Dr's but seemingly can't get yourself to medical school. What Dr worth their salt would look to a guy with no medical background as a consultant?

    You do nothing but troll on these forums and sadly people take the bait. Why don't you go to medical school if your so knowledgable? All the time you spend on these forums drumming up business and you could have a PHd, MD and many more degrees.

    Your pretty pathetic. Every post is the same BS. All anyone has to do is a search on your posts and you are routinely post the same answers over and over and over again.

    What really amazes me is the boards let you do it for free while others have to pay for advertising. AMAZING!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcgizzmo View Post
    It's amazing to me how you can "Consult" with all these Dr's but seemingly can't get yourself to medical school. What Dr worth their salt would look to a guy with no medical background as a consultant?

    You do nothing but troll on these forums and sadly people take the bait. Why don't you go to medical school if your so knowledgable? All the time you spend on these forums drumming up business and you could have a PHd, MD and many more degrees.

    Your pretty pathetic. Every post is the same BS. All anyone has to do is a search on your posts and you are routinely post the same answers over and over and over again.

    What really amazes me is the boards let you do it for free while others have to pay for advertising. AMAZING!
    I have to say from my experiencing representing doctors, I am amazed they would look to non medically trained individuals based on ego alone. Then there us the whole liability thing.

    Well doc, your patient died as the result of x?

    Where did you get this idea of doing x?

    So you personally did not see or view this in a medical journal, correct?

    You were not taught this in medical school?

    You did not consult with another collegue who was a doctor who advised you to do x?

    You did nit base this on any studies or peer review articles that you found on your own?

    In fact, this revelation to do x came from a consultant who has no formal medical training, did not attend medical school and is not licensed to practice medicine, correct?

    Well doctor, do you still make it a practice to base your medical care decisions on what nondoctors tell you you should do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcgizzmo View Post
    It's amazing to me how you can "Consult" with all these Dr's but seemingly can't get yourself to medical school. What Dr worth their salt would look to a guy with no medical background as a consultant?

    You do nothing but troll on these forums and sadly people take the bait. Why don't you go to medical school if your so knowledgable? All the time you spend on these forums drumming up business and you could have a PHd, MD and many more degrees.

    Your pretty pathetic. Every post is the same BS. All anyone has to do is a search on your posts and you are routinely post the same answers over and over and over again.

    What really amazes me is the boards let you do it for free while others have to pay for advertising. AMAZING!
    Yep and after 5 years my ideas are finally sinking in ....Jansz finally caught on to what I am have been saying..How long 5-6 years.
    Obviously I must be doing something right or medical Dr's would not give me the time of day then refer cases out .HMMM...


    FAct:

    1. If it was not for me putting my self through hell with estrodial fluctuation you would have never known about the estrodial ultra sensitive or the Lab corp sensitive (3-70) being in accurate. It only took 2 years to finally come out to make the "Official announcement" mean while people all over were suffering needlessly. I even called quest nichols institute to speak to head of research to bring it to their attention.

    I'm pathetic, I think one needs to take a good look in the mirror before passing judgement
    ---Problem with people is they focus on all the negative nothing positive. Pull your self back and take a look, rarely any one on certain forms are making progression in the 3- 5 years.

    BTW I just found hidden information from testing which prompted further investigation. The end result could have been devasting if not caught, Probably no traditional medical would have ever caught it....you do not see or hear about these things. Unlike others I tend to be humble. This is what I do on a daily basis, but I get bashed for it. Pretty sad the fu up world we live in..

    Stuff I know and learned is not taught in medical school, nor will be not until they change the system rather it is learned through life experience, lots of research, as well as being connected and having access to some of most brilliant minds in the fields..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix
    Yep and after 5 years my ideas are finally sinking in ....Jansz finally caught on to what I am have been saying..How long 5-6 years.
    Obviously I must be doing something right or medical Dr's would not give me the time of day then refer cases out .HMMM...

    Isn't it time for you to take your ice bath BTW do not forget to splatter preg cream all over you when you are done

    Just matter of time before they find one of your guys dead in ice bath with ice sickle hanging from their nuts and preg frozen solid. Great information to present on the board....Mods doing a great job
    Matrix, I'm not piling on here, but it's statements like the above is the reason that some people like me, who does medical research for a living (and have the education and certifications to back me up) tend to roll their eyes when they read your posts.

    It's the "my ideas" thing. Do you have any publications in a peer reviewed journal that back up this claim that these are "your" ideas? Are you saying that these "ideas" would not have been discovered if not for you? If so, put it in writing - and by that I mean a peer reviewed journal and not an Internet forum. I'm curious, do you do whatever it is you do full time or is it more of a hobby?

    I'm not trying to slam you here, and do believe you've learned a lot of what you know due to experience. It's also tough to take you serious when you get so defensive whenever someone questions your views.

    I do read just about every post you make, and agree with some of what you write, but to say that physicians are changing how they practice medicine because of you is pretty pompous.

    And ice bath like comments are just childish. I think you're better than that

    Carry on...
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Yep and after 5 years my ideas are finally sinking in ....Jansz finally caught on to what I am have been saying..How long 5-6 years.
    Obviously I must be doing something right or medical Dr's would not give me the time of day then refer cases out .HMMM...


    FAct:

    1. If it was not for me putting my self through hell with estrodial fluctuation you would have never known about the estrodial ultra sensitive or the Lab corp sensitive (3-70) being in accurate. It only took 2 years to finally come out to make the "Official announcement" mean while people all over were suffering needlessly. I even called quest nichols institute to speak to head of research to bring it to their attention.

    I'm pathetic, I think one needs to take a good look in the mirror before passing judgement
    ---Problem with people is they focus on all the negative nothing positive. Pull your self back and take a look, rarely any one on certain forms are making progression in the 3- 5 years.

    BTW I just found hidden information from testing which prompted further investigation. The end result could have been devasting if not caught, Probably no traditional medical would have ever caught it....you do not see or hear about these things. Unlike others I tend to be humble. This is what I do on a daily basis, but I get bashed for it. Pretty sad the fu up world we live in..

    Stuff I know and learned is not taught in medical school, nor will be not until they change the system rather it is learned through life experience, lots of research, as well as being connected and having access to some of most brilliant minds in the fields..
    Maybe you should change your profile to be more accurate? You say you only have only a high school diploma, smoke and drink. On the surface, if this is true, it challenges your credibility. Your posts are interesting, and I like to read them, but sometimes your information is incredibly off, like DHT not being much of a factor in prostrate problems. It's the prime reason for prostrate problems, more so than E2. But, your posts are thought provoking and it forces me to research some of the things you say to see if they are medically sound. That has helped me search for things I normally wouldn't have considered. And I don't mean this as a slam, because I think you do provide some good information. I would only say that before anyone changes their program based on your advice that they get a second opinion from a qualified medical practitioner if that change is in conflict with a program already prescribed by a licensed doctor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    Maybe you should change your profile to be more accurate? You say you only have only a high school diploma, smoke and drink. On the surface, if this is true, it challenges your credibility. Your posts are interesting, and I like to read them, but sometimes your information is incredibly off, like DHT not being much of a factor in prostrate problems. It's the prime reason for prostrate problems, more so than E2. But, your posts are thought provoking and it forces me to research some of the things you say to see if they are medically sound. That has helped me search for things I normally wouldn't have considered. And I don't mean this as a slam, because I think you do provide some good information. I would only say that before anyone changes their program based on your advice that they get a second opinion from a qualified medical practitioner if that change is in conflict with a program already prescribed by a licensed doctor.
    I like to challenge thinking of traditional medicine pushing things to the edge which may open doors for areas which have not been explored. In regards to DHT. I have BPH and it was never from DHT, but actually rather from untreated hypothyroidism and gut dysbiosis. You ask how is that possible? Well when a person is hypothyroid it can case a metabolic shift in estrogen metabolism from more good (2OHE) to bad (4,16 OHE), This can be comes a double whammy not for the fact that you have more bad then good estrogens, in addition to people who are hypothyroid are more like to be undemethylators. These people have inablity to unload the converted estrogen metabolites to get out of the body or to activate the good ones for protection from cancer, and other nasty gene expression. Even with normal DHT levels if these estrogens get out of balance or back it not being transport out they will recirculate back around the body and lock in to estrogen receptors at the breast, ulterine, and also you got it prostates. Here is where it can get hairy, How can people with normal DHT end up with BPH? Explanation from above if you are hypothyroid or in my case getting false reading from labs for the past 4-5 years thinking my estrodial was fine couple that with under active thyroid in ability to unload the bad estrogens, MTHFR mutation, Down regulation of CBS gene, GSTP gene mutation puts me into a very dangerous situation for potential for cancers and other issues. By getting my estrogen under control with an AI for now till I balance the liver, and GI tract which will in majority of cases reduce BPH in majority of people. One of the possible explaination for my BPH other then reason listed above its that the pathogenic bacteria from my dybiosis may have traveled in to my prostrate causing inflammation. Bacteria are known to travel to other areas of the body. I talked to several of my contacts and they have seen this numerous of times in cases. So again going back to the GI tract has a major impact of rest of the body more then we know of or just beginning to understand. This is the best part of my job going to weekly meetings with the top integrative medicine Dr's in philadelphia, seminars, webinars, ect being able to learn and comprehend the newest information and approaches being used to be able to educate Dr's to give the best possible suggestions for their patients. People complain about price of things, but little do they know about how much work there is on the back end they do not see and here about. As mentioned before if you do not have all your ducks in a row, I dotted, T crossed, and ready to support your information on case with clinical cases, medical studies, along with ideas being medical sound these medical professionals are going to think you are a joke.

    Here is some food for thought...
    Also some Dr's are using exogenous DHT to help reduce prostate BPH

    sex hormone binding globulin and androgen
    Sex hormone-binding globulin mediates prostate androgen receptor action via a novel signaling pathway. Ding VD Moller DE Feeney WP Didolkar V Nakhla AM Rhodes L Rosner W Smith RG Endocrinology (1998 Jan) 139(1):213-8

    Estradiol (E2) and 5alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol (3alpha-diol) have been implicated in prostate hyperplasia in man and dogs, but neither of these steroids binds to androgen receptors (ARs). Recently, we reported that E2 and 3alpha-diol stimulated generation of intracellular cAMP via binding to a complex of sex hormone-binding globulin (sex hormone binding globulin ) and its receptor (R(sex hormone binding globulin )) on prostate cells.

    We speculated that this pathway, involving steroids normally found in the prostate, was involved in the indirect activation of ARs. Using the dog as a model to test this hypothesis in normal prostate, we investigated whether E2, 3alpha-diol, and sex hormone binding globulin stimulated the production of the androgen-responsive protein, arginine esterase (AE), the canine equivalent of human prostate-specific antigen. In cultured dog prostate tissue preincubated with sex hormone binding globulin , E2 and 3alpha- diol stimulated AE activity. These effects were blocked by hydroxyflutamide, an AR antagonist, and by 2-methoxyestradiol, a competitive inhibitor of E2 and 3alpha-diol binding to sex hormone binding globulin . In the absence of exogenous steroids and sex hormone binding globulin , AE also was significantly increased by treatment with forskolin or 8-Bromoadenosine-cAMP. These observations support the hypothesis that in normal prostate, E2 and 3alpha-diol can amplify or substitute for androgens, with regard to activation of the AR via the R(sex hormone binding globulin ) by a signal transduction pathway involving cAMP. Because both E2 and 3alpha-diol are involved in the pathogenesis of benign prostatic hyperplasia in dogs and implicated in benign prostatic hyperplasia in man, antagonism of the prostatic sex hormone binding globulin pathway may offer a novel and attractive therapeutic target.

    Effect of aging on endogenous level of 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, estradiol, and estrone in epithelium and stroma of normal and hyperplastic human prostate
    M Krieg, R Nass and S Tunn
    Institute of Clinical Chemistry and Laboratory Medicine, University Clinic Bergmannsheil, Bochum, Germany.

    It is widely believed that benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) is associated with aging. Thus, the question arises whether or not a correlation exists between the well known prostatic androgen and estrogen accumulation and aging. To address this question, we measured 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (dihydrotestosterone), testosterone, estradiol, and estrone in epithelium and stroma of six normal (NPR) and 19 BPH and correlated the values with the age of the donors (26-87 yr). The mean dihydrotestosterone level in NPR epithelium was significantly higher than in NPR stroma, and also significantly higher than in epithelium and stroma of BPH. The epithelial dihydrotestosterone level of NPR and BPH decreased with age, the correlation being statistically significant. The stromal dihydrotestosterone level of NPR and BPH showed no correlation with age. Concerning testosterone, generally rather low values were found which showed no correlation with age. The mean levels of estradiol and estrone were significantly higher in BPH stroma as compared to BPH epithelium as well as to NPR epithelium and stroma. In NPR, the mean levels of estradiol and estrone were significantly higher in epithelium than stroma. In NPR and BPH, the stromal estradiol and estrone levels increased significantly with age. In epithelium such a correlation between the estrogen levels and age was not found. Our results indicate that the prostatic accumulation of dihydrotestosterone, estradiol, and estrone is in part intimately correlated with aging, leading with increasing age to a dramatic increase of the estrogen/androgen ratio particularly in stroma of BPH.











    and this study showing as we age more dihydrotestosterone is produced by the testies and the prostate itself, less dihydrotestosterone is produced from 5ar reduction of T.

    Altered metabolism of androgens in elderly men with benign prostatic hyperplasia
    T Ishimaru, L Pages and R Horton


    Kinetics of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (dihydrotestosterone) and 5alpha- androstane-3alpha,17beta-diol (3alpha-diol) were studied in 7 elderly healthy men (ages 61 to 80 years) with benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). Clearance rates were determined by the constant infusion technique with labeled testosterone and dihydrotestosterone. Metabolic clearance rate (MCR), conversion ratio (CR), the transfer constants (rho) and production rates (PB) were calculated. Plasma androgens were measured by specific radioimmunoassay. Plasma testosterone was 516 +/- 314 (SD) ng/dl, plasma dihydrotestosterone was 74.6 +/- 19.6 (SD) ng/dl and plasma 3alpha-diol was 16.4 +/- 4.1 (SD) ng/dl. An elevated dihydrotestosterone level in elderly men with BPH wasconfirmed. MCRT was 620 +/- 65 (SD) liter/day and MCRDHT was 393 +/- 50 (SD) liter/day. Both MCRT and MCRDHT in elderly men were significantly lower than in young men. PBT was 3.2 +/- 2.1 (SD) mg/day and PBDHT was 291 +/- 87 (SD)migrogram/day. PBDHT was the same in elderly and young men. dihydrotestosterone production is maintained in elderly men despite reduction of testosterone production. From the data, it was claculated that in contrast to young men where greater than 80% of blood dihydrotestosterone is from secreted testosterone, over 50% in elderly men is derived from secretion or production of dihydrotestosterone by the testis or even more likely the prostate.
















    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    "By getting my estrogen under control with an AI for now till I balance the liver, and GI tract which will in majority of cases reduce BPH in majority of people."

    Only if that majority suffers from hypothyroidism, then possibly true. I do not suffer from hypothyroidism and my E2 was in check but my DHT way high. In the case where we're talking about guys on AAS, blasting while on TRT, then high DHT is more than likely the culprit than E2. Both can cause BPH, but all my research points to DHT as more likely to cause BPH than E2. One reason may be that most guys on AAS/TRT take some AI, reducing the risk of E2 causing BPH. In any event, to discount DHT as a factor in BPH is incorrect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    "By getting my estrogen under control with an AI for now till I balance the liver, and GI tract which will in majority of cases reduce BPH in majority of people."

    Only if that majority suffers from hypothyroidism, then possibly true. I do not suffer from hypothyroidism and my E2 was in check but my DHT way high. In the case where we're talking about guys on AAS, blasting while on TRT, then high DHT is more than likely the culprit than E2. Both can cause BPH, but all my research points to DHT as more likely to cause BPH than E2. One reason may be that most guys on AAS/TRT take some AI, reducing the risk of E2 causing BPH. In any event, to discount DHT as a factor in BPH is incorrect.
    Not discounting it .. DHT, SHBG, e2 are all major players.
    It the balance between the ratio of DHT/estrogen which is the issue when DHT is normal
    When DHT is elevated then it can be a major factor along by itself, one needs to distinguish what is high >150-200?
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Yep and after 5 years my ideas are finally sinking in ....Jansz finally caught on to what I am have been saying..How long 5-6 years.
    Obviously I must be doing something right or medical Dr's would not give me the time of day then refer cases out .HMMM...



    BTW I just found hidden information from testing which prompted further investigation.
    The end result could have been devasting if not caught, Probably no traditional medical would have ever caught it....you do not see or hear about these things. Unlike others I tend to be humble. This is what I do on a daily basis, but I get bashed for it. Pretty sad the fu up world we live in..

    Stuff I know and learned is not taught in medical school, nor will be not until they change the system rather it is learned through life experience, lots of research, as well as being connected and having access to some of most brilliant minds in the fields..
    What what what? WTF did you learn? SHARE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Instead of freaking advertising and hiding **** like it's some great mystery only YOU can comprehend.

    My gripe has and always will be that you NO LONGER not that you EVER but NO LONGER give and share. The ONLY thing you do now is talk about how great you are, advertise and try and lure people into consulting with you all on the fitness and health board swhere most people either have the be a health professional to advertise or at least pay the owner of the board to advertise. Your a salesman now and don't give a **** about sharing or helping. Your only goal on these boards now is to get others to come to your Dr's practice so you can make a buck.

    Please tell me your a Dr? No... A DO? No... A Naturopath? No. A holstic medicine Dr? No. massage therapist? No... Salesman? Yes..
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcgizzmo View Post
    What what what? WTF did you learn? SHARE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Instead of freaking advertising and hiding **** like it's some great mystery only YOU can comprehend.

    My gripe has and always will be that you NO LONGER not that you EVER but NO LONGER give and share. The ONLY thing you do now is talk about how great you are, advertise and try and lure people into consulting with you all on the fitness and health board swhere most people either have the be a health professional to advertise or at least pay the owner of the board to advertise. Your a salesman now and don't give a **** about sharing or helping. Your only goal on these boards now is to get others to come to your Dr's practice so you can make a buck.

    Please tell me your a Dr? No... A DO? No... A Naturopath? No. A holstic medicine Dr? No. massage therapist? No... Salesman? Yes..
    OK, your point about the salesman thing rings true but I have to say some things in defense of the Matrix. We all have to make a living and this is at least part of how he does it. It is obvious that he can't just give away all his advice for free and expect to have any paying customers. You are right that his sharing is pretty limited because of this but he still does share some. He has not made a secret of his need to protect his interests either as he has explicitly posted about this. You typically won't find medical professionals of any type giving free consults in any forum. They are generally salesman too and that probably goes triple for anti-aging doctors. Regarding the value of an MD, it is true that medical schools simply do not provide much training in many of the topics that are discussed on this board. The MD does imply some level of intelligence (although this varies widely) and they may have gained experience with some patients (so has the Matrix and to a lesser extent we do too from reading these boards) but as medical science still does not have all the answers even the best doctors will be struggling with many of these issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitest View Post
    OK, your point about the salesman thing rings true but I have to say some things in defense of the Matrix. We all have to make a living and this is at least part of how he does it. It is obvious that he can't just give away all his advice for free and expect to have any paying customers. You are right that his sharing is pretty limited because of this but he still does share some. He has not made a secret of his need to protect his interests either as he has explicitly posted about this. You typically won't find medical professionals of any type giving free consults in any forum. They are generally salesman too and that probably goes triple for anti-aging doctors. Regarding the value of an MD, it is true that medical schools simply do not provide much training in many of the topics that are discussed on this board. The MD does imply some level of intelligence (although this varies widely) and they may have gained experience with some patients (so has the Matrix and to a lesser extent we do too from reading these boards) but as medical science still does not have all the answers even the best doctors will be struggling with many of these issues.
    Medicine is an ever expanded field, new stuff is coming out faster then one can keep up with it. With each new case you learn something new or a more efficient way of doing things. Protocols are constantly being tweaked and are based on an person individual needs. Dr's do not have the time to spend researching or going to seminars which I attend on weekends on my own time to allow me to better educated, spend hours a week talking to other professionals helping with them with cases they ask me to research. To stay on some the latest trends of medicine is a full time job in and among it self. Majority of the advances which are made are based in new advances in autism which I then use with Dr's dealing with majority of cases which are associated with hormonal imbalances. I post when I can because I have several cases I work on a week, on top of running personal training business. Some times have to get up at 2-4 am in order to deal with a case in another country. I do and share what I know, but with out the proper information about the case its all just speculation. People are starting to see the importance in an integrative approach is much more diverse then dealing with only one area which may be just a symptom of the cause. You think hormones are a challenge imagine integrating, neurology, immune, cellular metabolism, toxcity, GI, lifestyles, and all the others which go into the equation. Then it gets to be fun LOL
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Medicine is an ever expanded field, new stuff is coming out faster then one can keep up with it. With each new case you learn something new or a more efficient way of doing things. Protocols are constantly being tweaked and are based on an person individual needs. Dr's do not have the time to spend researching or going to seminars which I attend on weekends on my own time to allow me to better educated, spend hours a week talking to other professionals helping with them with cases they ask me to research. To stay on some the latest trends of medicine is a full time job in and among it self. Majority of the advances which are made are based in new advances in autism which I then use with Dr's dealing with majority of cases which are associated with hormonal imbalances. I post when I can because I have several cases I work on a week, on top of running personal training business. Some times have to get up at 2-4 am in order to deal with a case in another country. I do and share what I know, but with out the proper information about the case its all just speculation. People are starting to see the importance in an integrative approach is much more diverse then dealing with only one area which may be just a symptom of the cause. You think hormones are a challenge imagine integrating, neurology, immune, cellular metabolism, toxcity, GI, lifestyles, and all the others which go into the equation. Then it gets to be fun LOL
    I still cannot imagine any doctor worth their weight in salt relying upon synopsis of seminars and etc. provided by a lay person. It is bad enough that doctors listen to device reps and drug reps, but relying upon some dude who can barely articulate basic points . . . Good doctors and doctors I know, including family members, clients and close personal friends, are avid researchers and stay abreast of new developments in their field by their own reading amd interpretations as opposed to a second hand synopsis that may or may not be accurate from a lay person. If the doctors you work with are unable to research and stay on top of their speciality, then I would stay far away from those doctors. Perhaps you are compensated more on a basis of referral which may have STARK compliance issues. Not that I want or need any explanation. Things are just not always as they appear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    I still cannot imagine any doctor worth their weight in salt relying upon synopsis of seminars and etc. provided by a lay person. It us bad enough that doctors listen to device reps and drug reps, but relying upon some dude who can barely articulate basic points . . . Yes, good doctors and doctors I know, including family members, clients and close personal friends, are avid researchers and stay abreast of new developments in their field by their own reading amd interpretations as opposed to a second hand synopsis that may or may nit be accurate from a lay person. If the doctors you work with are able to research and stay on top of their speciality, then I would stat far away from those doctors. Perhaps you are compensated more on a basis of referral which may have STARK compliance issues.
    It is hard enough for researchers to stay abreast of their specialties let alone doctors that have to spend their time seeing patients. A layperson is someone that is not an expert in a given field of knowledge. Someone that studies a field extensively can become an expert in it regardless of their formal training. It is safe to say that the Matrix has studied a lot but whether he has learned enough to be considered an expert is debatable. My impression is that he has learned at least some useful things. Doctors are expected to at least keep up with the standard of care in their field. This typically lags research by many years. People come to these boards with problems for which the standard of care has no solutions. While doctors are experts in the standard of care for their specialties they are often not experts in the next generation of medical research even in their field. There is some slack here that can be taken up by other "experts". The nice thing about these forums is that people that have learned something can share it with everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitest View Post
    It is hard enough for researchers to stay abreast of their specialties let alone doctors that have to spend their time seeing patients. A layperson is someone that is not an expert in a given field of knowledge. Someone that studies a field extensively can become an expert in it regardless of their formal training. It is safe to say that the Matrix has studied a lot but whether he has learned enough to be considered an expert is debatable. My impression is that he has learned at least some useful things. Doctors are expected to at least keep up with the standard of care in their field. This typically lags research by many years. People come to these boards with problems for which the standard of care has no solutions. While doctors are experts in the standard of care for their specialties they are often not experts in the next generation of medical research even in their field. There is some slack here that can be taken up by other "experts". The nice thing about these forums is that people that have learned something can share it with everyone.
    I hear what you are saying, but this is a very naive view. I represented doctors of all specialities for 16 years. I spent 16 years discussing standard of care issues in every speciality imaginable and from every angle possible. I have to coach and work with many doctors on that very topic. Good doctors simply do not rely upon lay people in the manner in which you suggest. There are a litany of reasons which need not be discussed here.

    The standard of care is a legal standard that has very little relevance to dsy to day decisions made by doctors in their treatment if patients. Good doctors strive to provide the best care possible, not the minimally acceptable level of care that is just good enough to not be deemed negligent. Mistakes sometime occur during medical treatment. The standard of care merely has relevance in determining whether those "mistakes" actually fell below the minimally acceptable level of care such that an action if negligence may be sustained. A competent doctor never strives to provide the bare minimum level of care, i.e. standard of care.

    As a lawyer, I would never rely upon a lay person to research important issues or read cases and advise me as to what those cases hold. I am trained to read and analyze cases and see things and wordings that others may not see. This would also be a violation of legal ethics as constituting the unauthorized practice of law. I believe the same holds true for doctors when their patient's health or life may be at stake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    I hear what you are saying, but this is a very naive view. I represented doctors of all specialities for 16 years. I spent 16 years discussing standard of care issues in every speciality imaginable and from every angle possible. I have to coach and work with many doctors on that very topic. Good doctors simply do not rely upon lay people in the manner in which you suggest. There are a litany of reasons which need not be discussed here.

    The standard of care is a legal standard that has very little relevance to dsy to day decisions made by doctors in their treatment if patients. Good doctors strive to provide the best care possible, not the minimally acceptable level of care that is just good enough to not be deemed negligent. Mistakes sometime occur during medical treatment. The standard of care merely has relevance in determining whether those "mistakes" actually fell below the minimally acceptable level of care such that an action if negligence may be sustained. A competent doctor never strives to provide the bare minimum level of care, i.e. standard of care.

    As a lawyer, I would never rely upon a lay person to research important issues or read cases and advise me as to what those cases hold. I am trained to read and analyze cases and see things and wordings that others may not see. This would also be a violation of legal ethics as constituting the unauthorized practice of law. I believe the same holds true for doctors when their patient's health or life may be at stake.
    I was not addressing the question about whether a doctor should or should not work with the Matrix. The fact he had established such an unusual relationship is either to his credit or to the doctor's discredit. Your position is clear but I'm agnostic on this subject. Either you are assuming that the Matrix is incompetent or you are conflating the term layperson with someone that has no medical credential. If in fact the Matrix has useful expertise than it could make sense for a doctor to take advantage of it at what I am sure is a substantially lower cost than his own time. Ultimately doctors must take responsibility for the patient care but I'm sure they are free to use whatever sources of information they believe they can trust.
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    The drs have the choice where they get their information. If medical professionals (MD do nd) find information invalid then they would not refer more cases
    Again the cases are referred by drs are then discussed with their Dr to come up with the best therapeutic protocol. In compliance with board rules people are told not to discuss their cases. People contact me by their own free will. I have worked with many through here with Dr over few years, out comes have been positive as well as created a great working relationship with their Dr who now can take information and use it to help other people. I am only providing information for the person and medical person to make the proper choice for that's persons health. Going to seminars, meeting medical professionals having them refer cases speaks for itself. The improvement. In their patients results generation of more cases. They know I am not a Dr,but that's is over looked when they see improvement in challenging cases. If drs did not have confidence then I would not have gained the respect I have. I have my own lawyer/best friend and client who had health issues, but now can now practice confidently by being able to handle stress much better because of getting him rebalanced. See unfortunately you do not hear about these. I'm sure you can relate having the some ones life in your hands knowing it depended upon your performance. See his performance increased lead to his peers contacting me.

    Over the past several years I have built a relationship of trust with many medical professional. With trust also.comes respect on both sides. It was not an easy task, but with persistent and patients it payed off.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    The drs have the choice where they get their information. If medical professionals (MD do nd) find information invalid then they would not refer more cases
    Again the cases are referred by drs are then discussed with their Dr to come up with the best therapeutic protocol. In compliance with board rules people are told not to discuss their cases. People contact me by their own free will.
    Nothing to do with board rules. Basic and fundamental HIPAA Federal protections codified by US Congress. Seems at very least you would be intimately familiar with HIPAA if interacting in the physician patient relationship. Much ambiguitity is present with regard to the specifics of your relationship. Nonetheless, all good if works for you and makes you money. The doctors gave much more to lose than you unless someone construes you as participating in the unauthorized practice of medicine.

    Candidly, I have to become more of an expert on finite medical issues than doctors and experts I examine before a jury if I am to be persuasive to a jury. I think of stuff they don't consider and may have no reason to consider to bolster my posture and to discredit their expert MDs. Did this the other day with an anesthesiologists and a few weeks ago during at three week trial on HRT prescribed for women with osteo. None the less, you can bet those doctors, though appreciative of our victories still had no interest in using me to assist in diagnosing and treating their patients.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    None the less, you can bet those doctors, though appreciative of our victories still had no interest in using me to assist in diagnosing and treating their patients.
    Point very well made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    Point very well made.
    The medical professionals have a choice where they acquire their information. Information provided is for them to make the final decision on the out come of treatment for their patient. All I do is provide them food for thought based on non drug approaches to help their patients. Since I have been bounced through the medical system for several years being almost killed a few times from medical Dr's incompetencies I know how to prevent the same hell I went through for other people. The same people who post here and interact with me on a daily basis. Common sense is the most powerful over looked tool.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    The medical professionals have a choice where they acquire their information. Information provided is for them to make the final decision on the out come of treatment for their patient. All I do is provide them food for thought based on non drug approaches to help their patients. Since I have been bounced through the medical system for several years being almost killed a few times from medical Dr's incompetencies I know how to prevent the same hell I went through for other people. The same people who post here and interact with me on a daily basis. Common sense is the most powerful over looked tool.
    I think you do a lot of research and truly are passionate about what you know. But I know I would probably stop seeing my doctor if I knew he was taking medical advice from a guy with a high school diploma. When it comes to my health, I research everything I can and consult my doctor who has 10 years plus of education in the medical profession. I don't want to see a doctor who relies on common sense when it comes to my health. I have an advanced degree and went to law school. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. I read your posts with interest but would never regard it the same way I would advice from a licensed medical practitioner. You have to realize that as incompetent as some doctors may appear, you are in no position to challenge their competency armed with a high school diploma and self taught medicine. Perhaps if you toned down the perception that you consider yourself on par with doctors, and possibly their peers, your advice would be better received. You have a lot to contribute; no need to knock doctors not on your buddy list to bolster your status.
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