Interesting observation on suppression and restart...no PCT

  1. New Member
    macgyver1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    48
    Level
    4
    Lv. Percent
    37.97%

    Interesting observation on suppression and restart...no PCT


    I thought I would share an interesting experience with you guys.

    Before years end, I had a physical done and had my test levels checked. (just as some background..no prior aas usage)


    My Total came in good 607, but my free and weakly bound (bioavailable) was only 9%....with a normal range of 20-60%

    My GP wrote me a script for compounded test. I was on this for about a month at 350mg/week transdermally and then switched to test cyp for various reasons. (mainly worried about transference.)

    I filled the test c and ran that for a few weeks as 100mg split in 2.


    I then got note from my insurance that they denied my claim for coverage. Although my bioavailable was below scale, they would only accept it if my Free was measured Direct and came in below. My only choice was to go off and re-test.

    After getting advice, considering the 1/2life of CYP, I needed to wait about 21 days to "bottom out" and retest.


    I did this and figured I would be very low and most of the test cyp would be out of my system. I had been supplementing androgens for 6 weeks prior to stopping cold turkey...no PCT.

    Crazy thing happened...when I tested.... My Total came back exactly the same! (600) I was not shut down. My free direct was still low 7.8 with scale being (8.7-25)

    This goes against everything I have read. I can only think of two things that might have "helped" restart me so quick without PCT.

    When I knew I had to go off, knowing that I would feel tired, I decided to do a mini-cut and run an EC stack. I have seen on another site where there was a guy that believed the Ephedrine may help restart faster.??? I have no idea...just throwing that out there.

    The second thing is I supplement GABA. I have been doing this for sometime at about 4g before bed. Again I read somewhere that GABA can help with restart.


    All this is anecdotal....but I just wanted to share it. It seems odd that I would not be shut down at all, and those two things are the only things out of the ordinary that I can think of.

    What do you guys think?

  2. Elite Member
    The Matrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,039
    Rep Power
    7705
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    36.97%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    You got lucky, Plain and Simple.
    I would look why bioavailable was low (SHBG would indicate this) then go from there. Once we know where SHBG then it will tell us what next steps to take if needed. You may also want to look at other factors such as thyroid and adrenals, just to rule them out. The body is a strange thing. 2-3 weeks you would not be hitting plasma levels so you where not completely shut down.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
  3. New Member
    macgyver1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    48
    Level
    4
    Lv. Percent
    37.97%

    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    ... 2-3 weeks you would not be hitting plasma levels so you where not completely shut down.
    I was actually on for just over 6 weeks....which is why I was puzzled...??? I just thought it was odd that I was not shut down.

    As for SHBG...It came back high @ 46.2
    E2 was 25.8


    When I was on the HRT for that short period, I felt GREAT after about 3 weeks. I have been suffering very high levels of fatigue for the past few years despite being in very good shape. I also exhibit other symptoms of androgen deficiency.

    Low motivation for just about anything
    Lower libido
    Moodiness/ very emotional (fighting back tears from watching just about any movie...even KungFu Panda II. srs)
    Brain fog
    body hair loss. Despite being a fairly hairy guy, my leg hair has almost disappeared in places. Where it remains, it is very thin where as the rest of my body hair including chest is quite thick.
    And some strength loss. I am fairly well developed, and move decent weights. (500+deads, 400+ squats 350+ bench) but I was having trouble hitting weights that I had done in the past.
    •   
       

  4. Elite Member
    The Matrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,039
    Rep Power
    7705
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    36.97%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by macgyver1 View Post
    I was actually on for just over 6 weeks....which is why I was puzzled...??? I just thought it was odd that I was not shut down.

    As for SHBG...It came back high @ 46.2
    E2 was 25.8


    When I was on the HRT for that short period, I felt GREAT after about 3 weeks. I have been suffering very high levels of fatigue for the past few years despite being in very good shape. I also exhibit other symptoms of androgen deficiency.

    Low motivation for just about anything
    Lower libido
    Moodiness/ very emotional (fighting back tears from watching just about any movie...even KungFu Panda II. srs)
    Brain fog
    body hair loss. Despite being a fairly hairy guy, my leg hair has almost disappeared in places. Where it remains, it is very thin where as the rest of my body hair including chest is quite thick.
    And some strength loss. I am fairly well developed, and move decent weights. (500+deads, 400+ squats 350+ bench) but I was having trouble hitting weights that I had done in the past.
    Where was your e2 measured from what lab?
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
  5. New Member
    macgyver1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    48
    Level
    4
    Lv. Percent
    37.97%

    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Where was your e2 measured from what lab?
    Lab corp
    All test done through them
  6. Elite Member
    The Matrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,039
    Rep Power
    7705
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    36.97%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by macgyver1 View Post
    Lab corp
    All test done through them
    what was the range?
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
  7. New Member
    macgyver1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    48
    Level
    4
    Lv. Percent
    37.97%

    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    what was the range?
    I just have the email from the doc and he only gave me the range for Free. He did not give me the Range for the E2...just the number.
  8. Elite Member
    The Matrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,039
    Rep Power
    7705
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    36.97%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by macgyver1 View Post
    I just have the email from the doc and he only gave me the range for Free. He did not give me the Range for the E2...just the number.
    Its worthless with out the range.. is it roche or sensitive extraction method? Then you wonder why people slip flow the cracks of medicine and on my door step LOL
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
  9. New Member
    macgyver1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    48
    Level
    4
    Lv. Percent
    37.97%

    I'll get that info.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    What do you think about not being suppressed though from 6 weeks of supplementing test? Does that seem odd at all?
  10. Elite Member
    The Matrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,039
    Rep Power
    7705
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    36.97%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by macgyver1 View Post
    I'll get that info.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    What do you think about not being suppressed though from 6 weeks of supplementing test? Does that seem odd at all?
    Seen stranger things happen.;
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
  11. Senior Member
    DetroitHammer's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  250 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Age
    60
    Posts
    1,211
    Rep Power
    20690
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    42.14%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by macgyver1 View Post
    I thought I would share an interesting experience with you guys.

    Before years end, I had a physical done and had my test levels checked. (just as some background..no prior aas usage)


    My Total came in good 607, but my free and weakly bound (bioavailable) was only 9%....with a normal range of 20-60%

    My GP wrote me a script for compounded test. I was on this for about a month at 350mg/week transdermally and then switched to test cyp for various reasons. (mainly worried about transference.)

    I filled the test c and ran that for a few weeks as 100mg split in 2.


    I then got note from my insurance that they denied my claim for coverage. Although my bioavailable was below scale, they would only accept it if my Free was measured Direct and came in below. My only choice was to go off and re-test.

    After getting advice, considering the 1/2life of CYP, I needed to wait about 21 days to "bottom out" and retest.


    I did this and figured I would be very low and most of the test cyp would be out of my system. I had been supplementing androgens for 6 weeks prior to stopping cold turkey...no PCT.

    Crazy thing happened...when I tested.... My Total came back exactly the same! (600) I was not shut down. My free direct was still low 7.8 with scale being (8.7-25)

    This goes against everything I have read. I can only think of two things that might have "helped" restart me so quick without PCT.

    When I knew I had to go off, knowing that I would feel tired, I decided to do a mini-cut and run an EC stack. I have seen on another site where there was a guy that believed the Ephedrine may help restart faster.??? I have no idea...just throwing that out there.

    The second thing is I supplement GABA. I have been doing this for sometime at about 4g before bed. Again I read somewhere that GABA can help with restart.


    All this is anecdotal....but I just wanted to share it. It seems odd that I would not be shut down at all, and those two things are the only things out of the ordinary that I can think of.

    What do you guys think?
    I wouldn't jump to conclusions. It may not be the case that you successfully restarted but rather that you still had some test in your system. One possible cause is that you didn't go IM but injected Sub Q. I doubt that you did, but just saying it's possible if you didn't go deep enough. Think about it; you tested three weeks after you stopped. Two of those weeks your test levels should be elevated. So we're talking about one week where your body would have either a) recalculated your levels and put you back to a level presumably higher then your levels prior to TRT, or: b) the esters didn't cleave off as fast as they should have and you were still drawing from the Test Cyp.

    I knew a guy who was on about the same dosage then found religion and decided to quit. He stopped, and his PCT consisted of prayer. Four weeks later he got tested and his levels were 700. He of course praised the lord and claimed victory. Two months later his levels were 120.

    I get routine blood tests from Lab Corp. If I'm on Test e at 200mgs per week, which is what my doctor has me on, and I inject Sunday, my test levels will be between 700 - 800 on Friday. So mine drop off rapidly.
  12. New Member
    macgyver1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    48
    Level
    4
    Lv. Percent
    37.97%

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    I wouldn't jump to conclusions. It may not be the case that you successfully restarted but rather that you still had some test in your system. One possible cause is that you didn't go IM but injected Sub Q. I doubt that you did, but just saying it's possible if you didn't go deep enough. Think about it; you tested three weeks after you stopped. Two of those weeks your test levels should be elevated. So we're talking about one week where your body would have either a) recalculated your levels and put you back to a level presumably higher then your levels prior to TRT, or: b) the esters didn't cleave off as fast as they should have and you were still drawing from the Test Cyp.

    I knew a guy who was on about the same dosage then found religion and decided to quit. He stopped, and his PCT consisted of prayer. Four weeks later he got tested and his levels were 700. He of course praised the lord and claimed victory. Two months later his levels were 120.

    I get routine blood tests from Lab Corp. If I'm on Test e at 200mgs per week, which is what my doctor has me on, and I inject Sunday, my test levels will be between 700 - 800 on Friday. So mine drop off rapidly.
    Thanks for the feedback. Interesting about the different rates of breakdown.

    I am 100% sure the injection are IM. I am in the 10-12%bf range and my thigh skinfold is only 5mm. Very little fat on my legs. I am burying a 1" needle all the way in.


    I just thought this was odd as I had some other people tell me that I would probably be shut down and after about three weeks my numbers would be very low.

    I just wanted to share it and see what some others thought. I did not know if the EC or GABA might have been an influence?..
  13. Elite Member
    The Matrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,039
    Rep Power
    7705
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    36.97%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    I wouldn't jump to conclusions. It may not be the case that you successfully restarted but rather that you still had some test in your system. One possible cause is that you didn't go IM but injected Sub Q. I doubt that you did, but just saying it's possible if you didn't go deep enough. Think about it; you tested three weeks after you stopped. Two of those weeks your test levels should be elevated. So we're talking about one week where your body would have either a) recalculated your levels and put you back to a level presumably higher then your levels prior to TRT, or: b) the esters didn't cleave off as fast as they should have and you were still drawing from the Test Cyp.

    I knew a guy who was on about the same dosage then found religion and decided to quit. He stopped, and his PCT consisted of prayer. Four weeks later he got tested and his levels were 700. He of course praised the lord and claimed victory. Two months later his levels were 120.

    I get routine blood tests from Lab Corp. If I'm on Test e at 200mgs per week, which is what my doctor has me on, and I inject Sunday, my test levels will be between 700 - 800 on Friday. So mine drop off rapidly.
    Break the shot up into smaller dosages would resolve that issue. Being at 700-800 after 7 days is normal nothing special about it
    The point is on needs to be monitored to make sure other factors out side of testosterone as also addressed
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
  14. Senior Member
    DetroitHammer's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  250 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Age
    60
    Posts
    1,211
    Rep Power
    20690
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    42.14%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Break the shot up into smaller dosages would resolve that issue. Being at 700-800 after 7 days is normal nothing special about it
    What issue?
  15. Elite Member
    The Matrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,039
    Rep Power
    7705
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    36.97%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    What issue?
    You will have a more even serum then going from 2000 to 700 in 7 days. May peak at 1600 and trough at 1000 TT.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
  16. Senior Member
    DetroitHammer's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  250 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Age
    60
    Posts
    1,211
    Rep Power
    20690
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    42.14%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    You will have a more even serum then going from 2000 to 700 in 7 days. May peak at 1600 and trough at 1000 TT.

    Are you saying that on Sunday, when I inject 200mgs, I will peak at 2000 then rapidly go down to 700 five days later? I'm sorry, I'm just not with it this morning.
  17. Elite Member
    The Matrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,039
    Rep Power
    7705
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    36.97%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    Are you saying that on Sunday, when I inject 200mgs, I will peak at 2000 then rapidly go down to 700 five days later? I'm sorry, I'm just not with it this morning.
    Suggesting split the dosage into 100 mgs m and another 100 mgs thursday. You may be a fast metabolizer of T. Where is your GH levels at are you on GH it self? If not then I found that adding GH may slow down testosterone break down. One complements each other. When one is low the other will back it up. This is why guys on 450 TT can be monsters because there GH is optimized naturally along with thyroid and adrenals.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
  18. Senior Member
    DetroitHammer's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  250 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Age
    60
    Posts
    1,211
    Rep Power
    20690
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    42.14%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Suggesting split the dosage into 100 mgs m and another 100 mgs thursday. You may be a fast metabolizer of T. Where is your GH levels at are you on GH it self? If not then I found that adding GH may slow down testosterone break down. One complements each other. When one is low the other will back it up. This is why guys on 450 TT can be monsters because there GH is optimized naturally along with thyroid and adrenals.
    Right now I'm doing 200mgs twice a week, for 400mgs a week. The six months while I was on 200mgs, I was on HGH, 4iu per day. There's a lot of intererst in adding peptides to a cycle right now, but I was disappointed in the HGH. My natural levels are near extinction, like .00004. Something ridiculously low. I see you talk a lot about the thyroid and adrenals. I'm going to pay more attention to those values.
  19. Elite Member
    The Matrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,039
    Rep Power
    7705
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    36.97%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    Right now I'm doing 200mgs twice a week, for 400mgs a week. The six months while I was on 200mgs, I was on HGH, 4iu per day. There's a lot of intererst in adding peptides to a cycle right now, but I was disappointed in the HGH. My natural levels are near extinction, like .00004. Something ridiculously low. I see you talk a lot about the thyroid and adrenals. I'm going to pay more attention to those values.
    I help guys fine tune stuff along with their DR to get optimal wellness , by looking at things at deeper levels.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
  20. New Member
    macgyver1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    48
    Level
    4
    Lv. Percent
    37.97%

    On an interesting note, a friend replied that the EC might have had some effect....

    I do realize that there could be many reasons, all stated above. But just wanted to put this out there for the exchange of info.

    Here is what he said.

    1st Biochemical-individuality , some recover faster than others.
    2nd Test-cream doesn't stimulate aromatase like test injects do so lower estrogen levels and you were not on injects that long.
    3rd your dose was extremely low imo for HRT and your HPTA is obvioulsly extremely sensitive yet, reason for your fast recovery.
    4th You mentioned ephedrine may have helped with your HPTA, very possible. Cocaine has been shown to stimulate LH !
    Ephedrine being the same type of stimulant as Cocaine just weaker at that.
    Now for the rest don't think ephedrine or snortin a line of cocaine is going to fix your HPTA!~

    there are a bunch of studies like the ones below showing stimulant effects of amphetamines and M-amphetamines, Ephedrine being a sympathomimetic agent with direct and indirect effects on adrenergic receptors with alpha- and beta-adrenergic activity.

    (had to put ****'s in cause I cant post links yet...just copy past and delete *****)

    ht****tp://w****ww.ncbi.nlm.nih.****gov/pubmed/11181931

    ht****tp://w*****ww.nature.com/npp/journal/v29/n11/full/1300511a.*****html
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Interesting observation
    By CryingEmo in forum MMA
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-10-2008, 04:32 PM
  2. Interesting observation re armidex, E2 and thyroid/temps
    By user88777 in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-17-2007, 03:28 PM
  3. Just an observation
    By Ubiquitous in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 01-17-2007, 05:59 PM
  4. Can't Sleep: Rage and an Interesting Observation
    By Beowulf in forum General Chat
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 04-28-2006, 03:23 PM
  5. Observation
    By sly in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-28-2005, 03:42 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in