Dhea and Trt

[nobel252]

Any of you guys add dhea to your trt? Is there any benefit to this. I've always heard trt lowers dhea s levels but not sure about this.

 

[The Matrix]

Any of you guys add dhea to your trt? Is there any benefit to this. I've always heard trt lowers dhea s levels but not sure about this.

It lowers it because the body sense there is no need for it if it already has testosterone present so the body sends back a negative feed back loop to stop production. I have dr's test serum as well as urine as it can hide even if serum are normal. People may burn through it quickly due to over active adrenals or other imbalances. TEST FIRST NEVER ASSUME. Can it help when deficient yes, especially with libido department, insulin resistance prevention, and immune system.

 

[nobel252]

Thanks for the reply. I will check it on my next blood test

 

[fanzdslpwr1]

whats the latest with the injectable DHEA you were working on?

 

[The Matrix]

whats the latest with the injectable DHEA you were working on?

Works.great except way too.much oil to.shot 2 if shooting other things. Can not.find a good company to make.at 100 mgs per ml. Molecular weight is too much.

Did raise dhea.urine.from low.to.1/3 upper range and rose total T up.

One guy been working with past.year got shbg from 8 to 25 from fixing gi tract and correcting other cellular imbalances as indicated.on intracellular testing which where driving hidden insulin resistance. I now use special dhea sublingual from special pharmacy which gives same effects of injections.

 

[fanzdslpwr1]

so no estrogen conversion from the sublingual?

 

[nobel252]

so no estrogen conversion from the sublingual?

I think it would still convert into estrogen as it also increases testosterone.

 

[nobel252]

So would a supplement like erase being a dhea metabolite have any effect on dhea levels?

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[The Matrix]

so no estrogen conversion from the sublingual?

Not significant.
I had one guy testing 80 e2 on estradiol sensitive on lab corp. Retest on the roche method of e2 of 24 would explain he had no.high e2 issues...idiots lol

 

[BBB]

Any of you guys add dhea to your trt? Is there any benefit to this. I've always heard trt lowers dhea s levels but not sure about this.

I posed this same question to Dr. Dinoiii a few weeks ago. Below is his response:

I see patients in office with DHEA serum levels low as they progress in their years which brings up a very valid discussion on whether or not to entertain DHEA replacement - oral or otherwise - when confronted with documented low levels (we will leave out whether or not you actually measured them...this can be done at your cost if sincerely concerned through privatemdlabs.com). I think the effects are interesting and if we are trying to generalize (which is not always easy to do), we can probably consider the following data (collected from literature and my own clinical data combined).

< 65 years:

LH + FSH

Physically Active – no overt suppression upwards of 150 mg; minimally suppression thereafter

Sedentary – minimal suppression after surpassing 50 mg

Testosterone

Physically Active – no change

Sedentary – no change

Estrogen

Physically Active – minimal change, but usually requiring over 100 mg (haven’t seen changes in supplemental replacement doses of 25 or 50 mg; if using 50 mg bid tallying 100 mg, this may stave off estrogen changes as well)

Sedentary – as above for physically active

> 65 years:

LH + FSH

No overt suppression in sedentary individuals matching age-matched physically-active controls

Testosterone

Modest INCREASE in both groups

Estrogen

Modest INCREASE in both groups (within acceptable range)

Why do the physically active get better results in the young groups? I personally think it is due to the cortisol-lowering effect of DHEA, which is almost unanimous across the board. DHEA supplementation WILL lower cortisol! At the same time, how do we respect the testosterone/estrogen changes as cited above? Observe doses at minimum or avoid supplementation altogether due to our limited knowledge (I mean, if you supplement high enough, it should come as no surprise that the higher you go…the more likely you are to suppress natural levels. Hell, the same can be said for supplemental testosterone; if you use enough, it’s suppressive – we all know that…BUT at the same time, low-dose hormonal replacement does not always impact the HPGA in the same way.).

It has been suggested that there is currently no scientific reason to ever prescribe DHEA, but I would suggest some contrary evidence from literature and practice….

Caveats

1. DHEA has NO USE in supplemental regimen of post-cycler with concurrent use of SERM; in fact, DHEA may negate any benefits seen with a SERM (only study that exists is with Nolva, BUT it was interesting enough to dissuade my use with any patients on SERMs); outside of this, there are likely some cases where supplemental DHEA is of positive or equivocal benefit

2. DHEA likely of NO USE in supplemental regimens of men less than 35 years of age; of QUESTIONABLE USE at low dose in supplemental regimens of men between age 35-65 years; and of MODEST BENEFIT to those over the age of 65

3. Even groups younger than 35 years of age still may see acute cognition and memory benefits through stimulation of the Anterior Cingulate Cortex (ACC) as suggested by literature though I have NOT cared to test this theory in practice…for sheer pontification, it would probably be seen best with high-dose (why I wouldn’t suggest it) at say a week or less in more of a pulsatile fashion if you try and translate the literature, BUT I would stay away from it myself.

4. Mixed review on cardiovascular data; Overly positive data on insulin resistance (probably mostly an anti-cortisol effect coupled with anti-oxidative effect through lowering of pentosidine)

5. Longevity – boy, if patients are followed long enough (> 15 years); there is a mortality benefit. In other words, if followed less than that timeframe, studies have come out negative…BUT the lowest levels of DHEA-S in men were associated with a shorter life span (which is why I am even open to guys between the ages of 35-65 years taking it with an equivocal offering on hormonal changes you may not enjoy – androgenic/estrogenic), BUT I would hope if this was being employed … people would consider verifying this with serum levels as opposed to blindly supplementing.

Keep in mind, the above is for DHEA alone (not necessarily all metabolites or byproducts - some of which we know to be "safe" in this regard...7-keto --> 7-OH --> bAET)

You may or may not see what I have done here. I have tried to offer up the most objective set of conditions to time periods where people can make the best informed decision on taking DHEA or not as long as it remains an OTC supplemental option. I will NOT suggest anyone take it without full understanding of your case and/or an in-person physical exam and evaluation; so this is the best I can provide you in this setting.

D_

 

[The Matrix]

I posed this same question to Dr. Dinoiii a few weeks ago. Below is his response:

I see patients in office with DHEA serum levels low as they progress in their years which brings up a very valid discussion on whether or not to entertain DHEA replacement - oral or otherwise - when confronted with documented low levels (we will leave out whether or not you actually measured them...this can be done at your cost if sincerely concerned through privatemdlabs.com). I think the effects are interesting and if we are trying to generalize (which is not always easy to do), we can probably consider the following data (collected from literature and my own clinical data combined).

< 65 years:

LH + FSH

Physically Active – no overt suppression upwards of 150 mg; minimally suppression thereafter

Sedentary – minimal suppression after surpassing 50 mg

Testosterone

Physically Active – no change

Sedentary – no change

Estrogen

Physically Active – minimal change, but usually requiring over 100 mg (haven’t seen changes in supplemental replacement doses of 25 or 50 mg; if using 50 mg bid tallying 100 mg, this may stave off estrogen changes as well)

Sedentary – as above for physically active

> 65 years:

LH + FSH

No overt suppression in sedentary individuals matching age-matched physically-active controls

Testosterone

Modest INCREASE in both groups

Estrogen

Modest INCREASE in both groups (within acceptable range)

Why do the physically active get better results in the young groups? I personally think it is due to the cortisol-lowering effect of DHEA, which is almost unanimous across the board. DHEA supplementation WILL lower cortisol! At the same time, how do we respect the testosterone/estrogen changes as cited above? Observe doses at minimum or avoid supplementation altogether due to our limited knowledge (I mean, if you supplement high enough, it should come as no surprise that the higher you go…the more likely you are to suppress natural levels. Hell, the same can be said for supplemental testosterone; if you use enough, it’s suppressive – we all know that…BUT at the same time, low-dose hormonal replacement does not always impact the HPGA in the same way.).

It has been suggested that there is currently no scientific reason to ever prescribe DHEA, but I would suggest some contrary evidence from literature and practice….

Caveats

1. DHEA has NO USE in supplemental regimen of post-cycler with concurrent use of SERM; in fact, DHEA may negate any benefits seen with a SERM (only study that exists is with Nolva, BUT it was interesting enough to dissuade my use with any patients on SERMs); outside of this, there are likely some cases where supplemental DHEA is of positive or equivocal benefit

2. DHEA likely of NO USE in supplemental regimens of men less than 35 years of age; of QUESTIONABLE USE at low dose in supplemental regimens of men between age 35-65 years; and of MODEST BENEFIT to those over the age of 65

3. Even groups younger than 35 years of age still may see acute cognition and memory benefits through stimulation of the Anterior Cingulate Cortex (ACC) as suggested by literature though I have NOT cared to test this theory in practice…for sheer pontification, it would probably be seen best with high-dose (why I wouldn’t suggest it) at say a week or less in more of a pulsatile fashion if you try and translate the literature, BUT I would stay away from it myself.

4. Mixed review on cardiovascular data; Overly positive data on insulin resistance (probably mostly an anti-cortisol effect coupled with anti-oxidative effect through lowering of pentosidine)

5. Longevity – boy, if patients are followed long enough (> 15 years); there is a mortality benefit. In other words, if followed less than that timeframe, studies have come out negative…BUT the lowest levels of DHEA-S in men were associated with a shorter life span (which is why I am even open to guys between the ages of 35-65 years taking it with an equivocal offering on hormonal changes you may not enjoy – androgenic/estrogenic), BUT I would hope if this was being employed … people would consider verifying this with serum levels as opposed to blindly supplementing.

Keep in mind, the above is for DHEA alone (not necessarily all metabolites or byproducts - some of which we know to be "safe" in this regard...7-keto --> 7-OH --> bAET)

You may or may not see what I have done here. I have tried to offer up the most objective set of conditions to time periods where people can make the best informed decision on taking DHEA or not as long as it remains an OTC supplemental option. I will NOT suggest anyone take it without full understanding of your case and/or an in-person physical exam and evaluation; so this is the best I can provide you in this setting.

D_

Agree,
Every case is different, But I have seen a drop in DHEA in men on HRT in little as 8-12 weeks. DHEA is one of the most abundant hormone in the body. It is shown to help fight off bacterial infections with in the body keeping the immune system in proper balance. When it comes to DHEA if there are no issues with cancer, prostate issues, estrogens then supplementation would be more beneficial then detrimental on every plane. When using DHEA with drs I do not use it for hormones issue, but rather for neurological protection from memory and depression related issues along with its immune modulating qualities.

 

[fanzdslpwr1]

Do you still dislike Transaderm for DHEA replacement?

 

[The Matrix]

Do you still dislike Transaderm for DHEA replacement?

No not at all, my skin will not let nothing get through I tried all of them with no success except first dermacrine. TD have been shown to raise DHEA-S in serum which can be measured and easily tracked. It also can be measured in urine 24 hours. Saliva is useless test.

 

[fanzdslpwr1]

thanks for your input!

 

[BBB]

I take DHEA daily about 50 -100 mg. Although my DHEA levels are normal for my age, what ever that means, I find it helps combat lethergy and levels my daily energy levels. I just feel better on DHEA.

 

[fanzdslpwr1]

do you take orally or topicaly?

 

[The Matrix]

I take DHEA daily about 50 -100 mg. Although my DHEA levels are normal for my age, what ever that means, I find it helps combat lethergy and levels my daily energy levels. I just feel better on DHEA.

50-100 mgs will result in increased e2 conversion. Average dosage for therapy is 25-50 mgs for HRT. Most likely may be the brand you are using or have issues with absorption like most people do. You can cut down on side effect when you find the proper mood of administration.

 

[The Matrix]

Micronized is the smallest form and most absorbed