27 Yrs Old, Feel/Perform Great but VERY low T -- Any explanation?

[Azaloth]

Gentlemen,

I figured I'd post this in this forum as users here likely have the most experience dealing with hormones issues and potential causes/treatments.

My situation is very strange and I would appreciate any intelligent insights folks here are willing to share.

I'm 27 years old, in very good health (5'9" around 165 lbs @ 8% bodyfat, strong, energetic, plenty of aggression, etc). I have no symptoms of sexual dysfunction (if anything my wife would probably be relieved if my libido was a bit lower) and generally feel good. The only area that's lacking is sleep/stress which could be better due to the nature of my job, but I still get on average 5-6 hours night and the stress is completely manageable and doesn't effect my overall mood that much. I'm a pretty "intense" fellow naturally so often I think the stress is just my natural energy as much as it is worry-driven.

My diet is also spot-on; I eat a "clean" omnivorous diet; high-protein, moderate "good" fats, relatively low carbs, very little refined sugar, almost exclusively organic meat and produce, etc.

So all of this sounds great I'm sure, and I don't really feel like anything is wrong with me. BUT...

Every time I get my bloodwork done, my "T" comes back VERY low. The results I just got have my total T at 208.1/ng/dl. According to the lab, the reference range is 249 - 836. In the past I've occasionally been on the very low end of within normal (ie high 200's or low 300's) but never anything even close to the high end. Unfortunately despite my request the lab did not provide "free test" numbers, just total test.

Other factors to consider are that I've never run any kind of steroid or prohormone. I've run things like Erase/Titanium, BioForge, AnaBeta, IGF-2, etc. At one point I did also take Jungle Warfare back when there was some speculation it was laced with a mild prohormone (I obviously didn't know this when I was taking it, or I would not have used it). To my knowledge, none of these products should cause what seems like a chronically low level of testosterone.

Beyond this, the only other thing I can possibly think of is that when I was very young (6 yrs old I think) I had a nasty bike accident where I smashed my balls really hard on the metal bar below the bike's seat. It may sound funny now but it was one of the most shockingly painful things I've ever felt (the fact that I can remember in detail how it felt 20+ years later is evidence of that). My balls swelled up and were bruised horribly and I ended up needing to get exploratory surgery done at the hospital to just make sure the actual testicles were undamaged which thankfully they were. Aside from immense pain and temporary discomfort while recovering from the surgery (and a pretty badass scar), I've never had any complications or issues relating to the injury that I'm aware of.

With my current "T" levels I am technically a candidate for HRT and other "low T" treatments and I have the funds to engage in such a program without concern. However, I'm also someone who believes in a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" approach, particularly when it comes to my body. But with that said, I do train very seriously (lifting, martial arts, running, etc) and am definitely a hardgainer (I am very lean but even eating a huge caloric surplus it's exceedingly hard for me to add weight of any kind), so I can't help but wonder if maybe I'd be seeing even more dramatic gains if my T was boosted up by 3x or 4x what it is currently. Then again, hormonal manipulation is nothing to take lightly so I have reservations. I also am concerned about the future. I may feel great now in my late 20's but I'm concerned that having consistently low "T" long-term could lead to other health issues down the line.

So my questions are:

1. Has anyone else ever experienced anything like this (ie consistently low "T" across multiple blood tests over many years, but none of the traditional symptoms of Low T)? If so, did you take any action or did you leave it alone?

2. What do folks think about someone in my situation starting HRT? Do the risks outweigh the potential benefits? If it doesn't work out and I stop treatment, do I risk damaging my body's ability to produce T naturally again?

3. For those who've been on HRT long-term do you feel it's been a worthy investment? Has it substantially changed your athletic performance and quality of life?

Any thoughts folks want to share would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[lboston]

I'm 27 as well and struggling with the same issues.

I-just yesterday-started using Clomid (per my urologist) in hopes of restarting my own production of T.

It took me seeing three different doctors to find this guy who feels (as I do) that at 27, HRT is too risky--with my wife and I wanting another baby in the next few years.

My T levels are around 180 ng/dl and my free T shows to be low normal range.

I decided to try the Clomid protocol first only because having a family is more important to me right now than even my own feeling of well being. Mind you that I don't have all the symptoms of low T either, other than a sh1tty libido.

LB

 

[bad rad]

When I was intially diagnosed I had good libido and felt good overall. In the gym my gains were regressing and I was very injury prone. I had levels come back in the 100's though. I started HRT and ended up getting my wife pregnant after starting so it is possible but Clomid/Hcg seem to work best for that.

 

[The Matrix]

Simple advice.
If it ain't broke do not fix it, you going to invite more issues. Every ones genetic set point is not the same.
I would not screw with it unless it was going to become symptomatic. Some people can utilize testosterone more efficiently because there GH, adrenal, and thyroid is up to snuff. Most professional athletes I have tested are between 350-600.

Gentlemen,

I figured I'd post this in this forum as users here likely have the most experience dealing with hormones issues and potential causes/treatments.

My situation is very strange and I would appreciate any intelligent insights folks here are willing to share.

I'm 27 years old, in very good health (5'9" around 165 lbs @ 8% bodyfat, strong, energetic, plenty of aggression, etc). I have no symptoms of sexual dysfunction (if anything my wife would probably be relieved if my libido was a bit lower) and generally feel good. The only area that's lacking is sleep/stress which could be better due to the nature of my job, but I still get on average 5-6 hours night and the stress is completely manageable and doesn't effect my overall mood that much. I'm a pretty "intense" fellow naturally so often I think the stress is just my natural energy as much as it is worry-driven.

My diet is also spot-on; I eat a "clean" omnivorous diet; high-protein, moderate "good" fats, relatively low carbs, very little refined sugar, almost exclusively organic meat and produce, etc.

So all of this sounds great I'm sure, and I don't really feel like anything is wrong with me. BUT...

Every time I get my bloodwork done, my "T" comes back VERY low. The results I just got have my total T at 208.1/ng/dl. According to the lab, the reference range is 249 - 836. In the past I've occasionally been on the very low end of within normal (ie high 200's or low 300's) but never anything even close to the high end. Unfortunately despite my request the lab did not provide "free test" numbers, just total test.

Other factors to consider are that I've never run any kind of steroid or prohormone. I've run things like Erase/Titanium, BioForge, AnaBeta, IGF-2, etc. At one point I did also take Jungle Warfare back when there was some speculation it was laced with a mild prohormone (I obviously didn't know this when I was taking it, or I would not have used it). To my knowledge, none of these products should cause what seems like a chronically low level of testosterone.

Beyond this, the only other thing I can possibly think of is that when I was very young (6 yrs old I think) I had a nasty bike accident where I smashed my balls really hard on the metal bar below the bike's seat. It may sound funny now but it was one of the most shockingly painful things I've ever felt (the fact that I can remember in detail how it felt 20+ years later is evidence of that). My balls swelled up and were bruised horribly and I ended up needing to get exploratory surgery done at the hospital to just make sure the actual testicles were undamaged which thankfully they were. Aside from immense pain and temporary discomfort while recovering from the surgery (and a pretty badass scar), I've never had any complications or issues relating to the injury that I'm aware of.

With my current "T" levels I am technically a candidate for HRT and other "low T" treatments and I have the funds to engage in such a program without concern. However, I'm also someone who believes in a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" approach, particularly when it comes to my body. But with that said, I do train very seriously (lifting, martial arts, running, etc) and am definitely a hardgainer (I am very lean but even eating a huge caloric surplus it's exceedingly hard for me to add weight of any kind), so I can't help but wonder if maybe I'd be seeing even more dramatic gains if my T was boosted up by 3x or 4x what it is currently. Then again, hormonal manipulation is nothing to take lightly so I have reservations. I also am concerned about the future. I may feel great now in my late 20's but I'm concerned that having consistently low "T" long-term could lead to other health issues down the line.

So my questions are:

1. Has anyone else ever experienced anything like this (ie consistently low "T" across multiple blood tests over many years, but none of the traditional symptoms of Low T)? If so, did you take any action or did you leave it alone?

2. What do folks think about someone in my situation starting HRT? Do the risks outweigh the potential benefits? If it doesn't work out and I stop treatment, do I risk damaging my body's ability to produce T naturally again?

3. For those who've been on HRT long-term do you feel it's been a worthy investment? Has it substantially changed your athletic performance and quality of life?

Any thoughts folks want to share would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[lboston]

Simple advice.
If it ain't broke do not fix it, you going to invite more issues. Every ones genetic set point is not the same.
I would not screw with it unless it was going to become symptomatic. Some people can utilize testosterone more efficiently because there GH, adrenal, and thyroid is up to snuff. Most professional athletes I have tested are between 350-600.

Well said! Matrix-so if someone's other hormones are in check and perhaps igf-1 high normal (that's what mine shows), but T levels in the tank, you're saying that doesn't mean they need therapy or to fix the issues?

The OP may be in the same boat--or so it sounds.

 

[bad rad]

Well said! Matrix-so if someone's other hormones are in check and perhaps igf-1 high normal (that's what mine shows), but T levels in the tank, you're saying that doesn't mean they need therapy or to fix the issues?

The OP may be in the same boat--or so it sounds.

I've seen people post this about themselves before, no ill effects from naturally low T levels but had very high IGF levels to compensate.

 

[The Matrix]

I've seen people post this about themselves before, no ill effects from naturally low T levels but had very high IGF levels to compensate.

You need to not just look at igf-1 but also if it is turning over to GH through urinary 24 hour which I found for $95 bucks online cheaper then rheins test straight from lab corp. I have having more people test this to give a true indication of what is going in at the cellular level. I have learned people look too much at serum not at what is going on at the deeper levels. I have been on this hormonal wild goose chase for 2 long as well as so many other people are coming to finding out there are deeper issues at hand which need to be identifed and addressed FIRST before HRT is implemented. With in 4 months of people using this methodology they are turning around. People who are have low T even in there 40's are boosting levels into the 500-600 range from lower 200's. The reason is their Dr's are now being properly educated looking for the cause not just treating underlying symptoms. Through years of research and self experiment I have learned of ways on how to manipulate enyzmatic pathways. We are so close to finding the possible mechanism which causes cholesterol not being able to be converted into hormonal cascades. Trust me a lot of young guys thinks it cool to give them shots a week, but just being on HRT of 5 years I am getting pretty sick of it actually. I am planning to reduce my dosage down to 80 mgs a week of T, and continue to working on other factors to help make it work more efficiently to get dialed in. I have not taken a shot in over 7 days and pulled a 550lbs stiff legged dead lift for 5 reps for 39 year below 200 lbs. NOT BAD, plus I am off cortef, thyroid cold turkey (6 years on it) , off HCG, using minute dosage of AI which will discontinued shortly once I have a few other things dialed in (liver and GI). I am going into the right direction. The nicest part, I got another 100 -150 bucks a month in my bank acct from not having to buy all those drugs. :nervous:

 

[Azaloth]

Thanks for the insights guys. I just wish I understood why the readings are so low. Again, I feel great and have zero noticeable issues other than it perhaps being extremely hard for me to bulk up beyond where I am now, but both my parents are small ectomorphic people and I've always been a skinny kid so it's hard to say that's 100% due to my T levels. Even in the libido department I consider myself in excellent shape; I'm always in the mood, have no ED issues at all, good stamina, etc. Not trying to be crass in making that statement, just emphasizing that I really have no perceivable ill effects at all. Yet, according to one endocrinologist my levels are such that I should have noticeable libido problems, lethargy, etc... it's just so strange.

 

[The Matrix]

Thanks for the insights guys. I just wish I understood why the readings are so low. Again, I feel great and have zero noticeable issues other than it perhaps being extremely hard for me to bulk up beyond where I am now, but both my parents are small ectomorphic people and I've always been a skinny kid so it's hard to say that's 100% due to my T levels. Even in the libido department I consider myself in excellent shape; I'm always in the mood, have no ED issues at all, good stamina, etc. Not trying to be crass in making that statement, just emphasizing that I really have no perceivable ill effects at all. Yet, according to one endocrinologist my levels are such that I should have noticeable libido problems, lethargy, etc... it's just so strange.

I just had an elite fighter with T levels of 300's freaking out. I found out through proper evaluation the area where they trained in was very cold which can lead to potentially low levels when in training. I told him to stay warmer wear more layers when training this should result in keeping his levels higher. Over the past, 2-3 weeks he did notice less fatigue while keeping the same level of training. The moral of he story is that you need to really dig in to rule out potential reasons why by taking the whole picture in.

 

[lboston]

Thanks for the insights guys. I just wish I understood why the readings are so low. Again, I feel great and have zero noticeable issues other than it perhaps being extremely hard for me to bulk up beyond where I am now, but both my parents are small ectomorphic people and I've always been a skinny kid so it's hard to say that's 100% due to my T levels. Even in the libido department I consider myself in excellent shape; I'm always in the mood, have no ED issues at all, good stamina, etc. Not trying to be crass in making that statement, just emphasizing that I really have no perceivable ill effects at all. Yet, according to one endocrinologist my levels are such that I should have noticeable libido problems, lethargy, etc... it's just so strange.

If I were you my friend, until you have a symptomatic reason for concern, or other significant flags from bloodwork...let the hormones rest as they are. Just my two pennies. Like I mentioned before, if I did anything I would try the Clomid. That's what a new urologist I saw just yesterday has suggested. This doctor consulted a fertility expert within his network and felt this the best treatment given that I am 27.

I did a month of HRT with testosterone back in November (quit due to possible sides regarding fertility) and in January my test was in the 170s and my LH and FSH went down significantly.

 

[Azaloth]

Thanks guys. I'm looking for a really good functional medicine doc with endocrinology expertise and experience treating pro-level athletes here in NYC. I'd like to at least get examined by someone in the know who can, as The Matrix suggested, evaluate the whole picture. I'm not interested in the typical anti-aging shop that just wants to get me on a pricey HRT plan for the $$ but someone who really knows their **** who will dig deep to find the root cause. If the doc takes Blue Cross Blue Shield insurance that's ideal but I'm even willing to pay out of pocket for a top person. Cost is less of a concern than getting to the bottom of this once and for all.

I do take my training very seriously and am spot on with diet, conditioning, etc. All my other blood metrics are great as well, although Vit D was a tad on the low side, but to be expected since I recently cut out dairy and citrus due to food allergies (Milk and OJ were both previous sources if Vit D), plus I'm working indoors most of the time and it's winter here. I'm taking around 3000 UI/day of Vit D to get that back up, which leave the low T as the only metric that was measured that isn't in top shape. I have horrendous OCD so I won't be able to get this out of my head until I figure out WTF is causing the level to remain so low over many years.

 

[Kekkuk]

I'm 27 as well and struggling with the same issues.

I-just yesterday-started using Clomid (per my urologist) in hopes of restarting my own production of T.

It took me seeing three different doctors to find this guy who feels (as I do) that at 27, HRT is too risky--with my wife and I wanting another baby in the next few years.

My T levels are around 180 ng/dl and my free T shows to be low normal range.

I decided to try the Clomid protocol first only because having a family is more important to me right now than even my own feeling of well being. Mind you that I don't have all the symptoms of low T either, other than a sh1tty libido.

LB

What dose(s) did the doc suggest?

I'm getting off trt after being on for three months. I'm taking clomid, nolvadex, orastine, and later some arimidex to try and bounce back...that's all self medicated. I don't trust my doc.
I'm 29 and my serum was 35...

 

[The Matrix]

Thanks guys. I'm looking for a really good functional medicine doc with endocrinology expertise and experience treating pro-level athletes here in NYC. I'd like to at least get examined by someone in the know who can, as The Matrix suggested, evaluate the whole picture. I'm not interested in the typical anti-aging shop that just wants to get me on a pricey HRT plan for the $$ but someone who really knows their **** who will dig deep to find the root cause. If the doc takes Blue Cross Blue Shield insurance that's ideal but I'm even willing to pay out of pocket for a top person. Cost is less of a concern than getting to the bottom of this once and for all.

I do take my training very seriously and am spot on with diet, conditioning, etc. All my other blood metrics are great as well, although Vit D was a tad on the low side, but to be expected since I recently cut out dairy and citrus due to food allergies (Milk and OJ were both previous sources if Vit D), plus I'm working indoors most of the time and it's winter here. I'm taking around 3000 UI/day of Vit D to get that back up, which leave the low T as the only metric that was measured that isn't in top shape. I have horrendous OCD so I won't be able to get this out of my head until I figure out WTF is causing the level to remain so low over many years.

I have a reference for you pm me.

 

[lboston]

What dose(s) did the doc suggest?

I'm getting off trt after being on for three months. I'm taking clomid, nolvadex, orastine, and later some arimidex to try and bounce back...that's all self medicated. I don't trust my doc.
I'm 29 and my serum was 35...

Hey bud- what was the scale with your serum at 35? What symptoms were you having?

The dose that he has started me on is 25mg of Clomid every day. Here in a few weeks I will go back for some bloodwork to see if that needs to be readjusted.

It's nothing to stay on for life, but in the intermittent time--while I still want to keep my boys producing--it's better (to me anyway) than the alternative.

 

[The Matrix]

Hey bud- what was the scale with your serum at 35? What symptoms were you having?

The dose that he has started me on is 25mg of Clomid every day. Here in a few weeks I will go back for some bloodwork to see if that needs to be readjusted.

It's nothing to stay on for life, but in the intermittent time--while I still want to keep my boys producing--it's better (to me anyway) than the alternative.

Its a start ...just need to be monitored
25 mgs is still too much ED, still chances of possible down regulation. With clomid you need to back fill all the proper building blocks and enzymatic reactions for it to proper fully function.

 

[Kekkuk]

Scale was 348-1197.
The only other numbers that were out were hdl cholesterol 37 L mg/dL limits >39, bun/creatine ratio 28h limits 8-19, and bun 27h limits 6-20.
I didn't really have any symptoms except lack of sex drive w the ol lady, but I still wanted to have sex...
Prior to the test, all I'd ever taken was some natural test boosters. I had been off for two weeks before giving blood.

 

[lboston]

Scale was 348-1197.
The only other numbers that were out were hdl cholesterol 37 L mg/dL limits >39, bun/creatine ratio 28h limits 8-19, and bun 27h limits 6-20.
I didn't really have any symptoms except lack of sex drive w the ol lady, but I still wanted to have sex...
Prior to the test, all I'd ever taken was some natural test boosters. I had been off for two weeks before giving blood.

I would look online at different urologists in your area and see if any mention on there websites if they do HRT. I saw and endo first and he did nothing for me, despite two low t blood works showing around 180, and told me I needed to just "tough it out" and they would return to more "normal"'levels.

Of course, that's not to say many, many won't help someone out, I just didn't have luck with mine. Where do you live?

 

[lboston]

Its a start ...just need to be monitored
25 mgs is still too much ED, still chances of possible down regulation. With clomid you need to back fill all the proper building blocks and enzymatic reactions for it to proper fully function.

Matrix-what do you feel is more appropriate. I've read a lot on guys doing 12.5 ED. Could you please explain a bit more on the down regulation and the backfilling you mentioned?

 

[The Matrix]

Matrix-what do you feel is more appropriate. I've read a lot on guys doing 12.5 ED. Could you please explain a bit more on the down regulation and the backfilling you mentioned?

Back fillings is correcting all the cellular enzymes and pathways which go into making testosterone as balancing other endocrine hormones which complement it. Every case is different depends on the variables you are dealing with in come up with the proper dosing which should be determined by a person dr (even majority of them are uneducated about the topic in the first place)

 

[Kekkuk]

I was on trt injections. He'll continue if I choose. I filled a script for axiron...not using it yet (besides, I've read it's junk).
I want to try and kick start my own test.
I don't like the idea of being on trt rest of my life.
Was going to do:

Nolva 40/40/20/20
Clomid 50/25/25/0
Arimidex 0/1 mg eod/1 mg eod/1 mg e3d

Going to get tested a month after.

 

[The Matrix]

I was on trt injections. He'll continue if I choose. I filled a script for axiron...not using it yet (besides, I've read it's junk).
I want to try and kick start my own test.
I don't like the idea of being on trt rest of my life.
Was going to do:

Nolva 40/40/20/20
Clomid 50/25/25/0
Arimidex 0/1 mg eod/1 mg eod/1 mg e3d

Going to get tested a month after.

Adex in post cycle or restart is ludicrous it can have counter effects at those dosage. You may have a bad azz rebound effect from it possible ..

 

[Kekkuk]

Ok. Exed out. Thanks.
Do you think an ai is needed?

 

[The Matrix]

Ok. Exed out. Thanks.
Do you think an ai is needed?

Every one is different cam not answer that question

 

[Kekkuk]

I saw that coming. No black and white--million shades of grey. Thanks.

 

[The Matrix]

I saw that coming. No black and white--million shades of grey. Thanks.

Majority of cases I deal with are in the "grey" one can never have too much information, just have to sift out the BS from something that is applicable.