muscle repair and DHT

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I'm not talking about the effects on sex drive though, but the effects on your muscle/joints etc. Those effects seem severe..which I wouldn't personally attribute to the AI or E2, but would look to other things for the source which may be non-hormonal as well.
    At the moment I think the avodart is the most likely culprit for my muscle/tendon issues. I have been weening myself off this drug this month. I'm at about 40% full dose serum levels now. There has been some improvement in my knee injury so far. For sure I have other issues that may predispose me to more problems. I have a history of gut issues and pan-CD3 lymphopenia. But these predate the muscle problems by a long time. My first muscle problems started within the first year of starting avodart.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by hitest View Post
    Yeh, this is hard to do. At first I tried to crush it to a powder and dissolve in liquid and dose by measuring amounts with eye dropper. Problem is that aromasin doesn't dissolve easily so you had to shake it right before measuring. I switched to cutting off slivers. I have access to a high precision lab scale that can measure very small amounts. Arimidex made me feel very bad right away as I noted.
    It makes sense somewhat, arimidex works rather quickly compared to aromasin which take up to 7 days to clear your system. I tend to agree with the other poster avodart may cause some odd drug interactions with arimidex and aromasin.
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  3. I have been off Avodart for another month. To counter potential estrogen issues I have been taking reservatrol, some phytosterols and I3C. I did not take any nettle yet because of my immune deficiency. At this point my serum levels of Avodart should be down to 20% of a full dose. My prostate symptoms returned as expected but the I3C has controlled the prostatitis part fairly well. So far my thermoregulation issues have not returned and reservatrol may deserve the credit for this. There has been more night-time wood - sometimes so much so it keeps me awake - lol. Unfortunately, there has been no improvement in my main problem - muscle/tendon issues. It is starting to look like DHT is not the problem even though the DHT cream seems to help reduce pain in the short term. Still it may be too early to tell as a 20% dose may still be enough to keep my DHT levels below normal.

  4. Just another thought....could you be allergic to some foods which prevents your body to take in necessary nutrients?
    This could explain why your body has a hard time recovering and perhaps you also have some inflamation as well.
    What do you eat?
    Do you have food allergies of any kind?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by daAMx View Post
    Well actually DHT itself technically decreases growth hormone levels, but it increases IGF-1 binding sites from what I hear. So it's DHT + Test + IGF-1 + E2 are all necessary for healing. People who have low estrogen but high DHT tend to have lower growth hormone levels. DHT might be good to balance E2 out. You might also want to look into the new healing peptides ACT-1 and BPC157.
    Hey daAMx, thanks for the post. For sure it is a mix of stuff needed for healing including E2. I'm a big fan of peptides but somehow I missed these. I will check them out. I know these are not addressing the root cause but I'll take whatever help I can get while I figure it out.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Just another thought....could you be allergic to some foods which prevents your body to take in necessary nutrients?
    This could explain why your body has a hard time recovering and perhaps you also have some inflamation as well.
    What do you eat?
    Do you have food allergies of any kind?
    I have a history of food intolerances but not allergies. These have gotten a lot better. But I also have a history that is a form of irritable bowel syndrome that has gotten worse. For sure I have some malabsorption problems but these are on the side of too much. I don't have any nutrient deficiencies show up on tests. In fact my B12 is elevated. Still my gut is likely part of the problem. My gut is leaking microbial products causing chronic immune activation. This is either a cause or effect of my lymphopenia. Since the immune system is also involved in injury repair this could be part of it. But this problem predates my healing problems although the IBS aspects have gotten worse.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by hitest View Post
    I have a history of food intolerances but not allergies. These have gotten a lot better. But I also have a history that is a form of irritable bowel syndrome that has gotten worse. For sure I have some malabsorption problems but these are on the side of too much. I don't have any nutrient deficiencies show up on tests. In fact my B12 is elevated. Still my gut is likely part of the problem. My gut is leaking microbial products causing chronic immune activation. This is either a cause or effect of my lymphopenia. Since the immune system is also involved in injury repair this could be part of it. But this problem predates my healing problems although the IBS aspects have gotten worse.
    Could be that is just got worse. It just seems to me that you are not geting enough nutrients into your system thus the muscle cant repair itself properly. Did you ever try to eliminate wheat(celliac?) and stick with more protein and higher fat?
    Might be worth a try.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Could be that is just got worse. It just seems to me that you are not geting enough nutrients into your system thus the muscle cant repair itself properly. Did you ever try to eliminate wheat(celliac?) and stick with more protein and higher fat?
    Might be worth a try.
    I did eliminate wheat and tried every other kind of diet too. No diet can fix my problems. That would be way too easy.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by hitest

    I did eliminate wheat and tried every other kind of diet too. No diet can fix my problems. That would be way too easy.

    I finding a.lot.of.resolution to these types of issues through using genetic snps
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    I finding a.lot.of.resolution to these types of issues through using genetic snps
    What do you mean by "genetic snps"? I'm aware of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) as a form of genetic mutation but this is not something you can use - it is something that you have.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by hitest

    What do you mean by "genetic snps"? I'm aware of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) as a form of genetic mutation but this is not something you can use - it is something that you have.
    Yes its something that now.can.hold.key to knowing what person metabolic detoxication pathways are not working properly and.how.to what can be done over come.them. Not to.many.drs are even aware of these in.medicine, but i.have made.several.aware of.them. By doing so, they are changing their approach to certain cases. People who have been house bound for along tIme are now starting to.move outside being social. People.in wheel chairs are getting up.and walking for.first time.in.years. In drs want to stay.in their comfort zones doing hormones fine. I am.moving the ball.forward with Drs.who.want to.be able.to.deal with the whole.person to.get a better over all approach.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  12. This is an update. I have been off of Avodart since May. The amount of drug left in my system is probably around 5% or less. I noticed that my shoulders started feeling better so I very slowly resumed my pushups and pullups. All was well until I got back to 25 pushups and 8 pullups. Then I had another set back and now cannot do anything for a while. So my recovery got even less far than the previous one where I got back to 38 pushups and 19 pull ups. I don't think I can blame my poor recovery on Avodart any more although it is true that once the tendons are injured they don't come back to full strength.

    I should add that shortly after I resumed training I also tried BPC-157. Obviously this did not prevent my set-back so this is a disappointment. It is possible that it deserves some credit for improved digestive tract symptoms but that is hard to say.

    After my set back I decided to try Nettle extract as this is supposed to help with inflammation and tendons in particular according to some things I read. Surprisingly this seemed to increase my shoulder pain to sharp shooting pains I did not have before. I stopped and the pain lessened. To test this again I restarted last Thursday and again I noticed more pain and my knee injury was also aggravated more than usual by my running. So I stopped taking it again today. I will try this some more later to see if this keeps happening because it seems really odd.

    On a side note I went ziplining last weekend which required some leg lift like motions. This was not a very strenuous activity. Nevertheless I had quite a bit of pain in the connective tissue from my groin to my ribcage. I stopped using those muscles this past week and the pain has improved but only time will tell if I have any trouble resuming my abdominal exercises.

    I'm very frustrated. At this point I thinking about trying other tissue repair peptides like TB 500.
  13. Muscle/tendon problems


    hitest,

    You're not the only one here with muscle/tendon problems likely related to Avodart. I was on finisteride for a few years, then upgraded to Avodart as I had some BPH issues and was also starting to lose some hair. Miraculously, both problems were basically resolved within six months of starting Avodart. But in the past four years, I've also noticed a lot of nagging injuries that just won't fully heal. Massage and ice have helped, but whenever I return to training, the injuries return.

    It started with pulled calfs from toe-running (still dealing with them 18 months later despite quitting running entirely last winter), then several shoulder problems, which stopped me from doing pushups, pull-ups, military press, etc. (plus an AC joint operation which really helped one side, and cortisol on the other), then forearm and bicep issues from curls (stopped those six months ago, not fully healed yet), quad, patella, and ham issues (stopped squats and other leg exercises a year ago, still not fully healed), finger issues from climbing (which I also quit a year ago), and minor neck pulls that are ongoing. Basically, I've stopped doing anything except restorative yoga and distance walking in order to allow my injuries to heal.

    I found a recent post online by a distance runner who quit Avodart and his muscle injuries went away, so I quit Avodart myself 6 weeks ago, am taking lots of hot tubs/steams to get the stuff out of my system. The big question is whether we can get back more or less, to normal. After reading your post and comments by others, I'm more convinced than ever that DHT is necessary for muscle repair, and I'm hoping that getting DHT up again will allow for a full, or at least a 90% recovery. At this point, I'm a lot less concerned about the hair thing, and if BPH becomes a problem, the latest medical advances are pretty good and I'm fine with doing one of those. I'd rather have my DHT than quit all sports and have to live on Ibuprofin!

    You're ahead of me on the recovery road. Have you made any progress?

    Thanks for having shared your story. Its nice to know I'm not the only one in this...

  14. Hitest, I've been using Avodart, and formerly Propecia, and have the same problem with muscle/tendon repair as you. I've had strained calfs, pulled ham, frozen shoulder, AC joint surgery on the other shoulder, and neck and arm muscles pulls. After about five years of this nonsense, I quit Avodart six months ago and with aggressive physical therapy and Graston work, and starting to return to normal. Given the short half-life of DHT, I'm not sure why this process has taken so long. How is your progress? Are you still on Avodart?

  15. Hitest, Mindful,

    I know this thread has gone cold. I'd be very interested to hear of your current status. My situation is nearly identical to Mindful. Lots of tendon related injuries that are slow to heal. I've been taking Propecia for 8 years. I've 3 years ago I dialed up my training. Everything. Rowing, running, HIIT, weight lifting. And keep experiencing tendonitis-like symptoms. I've gotten good at sensing the subtle beginnings of an injury and back off. But it takes many months to heal. I suspect low DHT. Thinking about quitting Propecia. Have you guys had success quitting and seeing better healing? Thanks in advance!!

  16. Quote Originally Posted by dkillian View Post
    Hitest, Mindful,

    I know this thread has gone cold. I'd be very interested to hear of your current status. My situation is nearly identical to Mindful. Lots of tendon related injuries that are slow to heal. I've been taking Propecia for 8 years. I've 3 years ago I dialed up my training. Everything. Rowing, running, HIIT, weight lifting. And keep experiencing tendonitis-like symptoms. I've gotten good at sensing the subtle beginnings of an injury and back off. But it takes many months to heal. I suspect low DHT. Thinking about quitting Propecia. Have you guys had success quitting and seeing better healing? Thanks in advance!!
    Try using a joint supplement like iForce Joint Help or SNS Joint XT. Combine this with glucosamine. I'm 55 and this keeps my joints and tendons healed.
    May I suggest using this app to track your bloodwork tests:
    myBloodTracker for IPhone and IPad
    https://appsto.re/us/vvMndb.i
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