muscle repair and DHT
- 04-28-2012, 11:08 PM
- 04-28-2012, 11:09 PM
I don't see the point of trying to self-diagnose yourself instead of going to a doctor. A qualified medical professional is going to be able to help you a lot more than a bodybuilding message board on the internet. Your personal doctor also knows your medical history. Self diagnosis over the internet is a recipe for disaster.
- 04-28-2012, 11:22 PM
04-28-2012, 11:29 PM
If you don't like your doctor than search for a new one. It seems as though you already self diagnosed yourself though, saying that low DHT is your problem. Just go to the doctor and tell him what is going on and he should be able to give you an answer. If you don't like the answer he gives you than I don't know what to tell you. You shouldn't be going into the doctor and telling them what is wrong with you. Would you go to the mechanic and tell him how to do his job also?. Just go in and describe your symptoms. Sure someone else might have injuries that may not heal very fast also, but that isn't really going to help you any. You are your own person with your own medical and psychiatric history. We don't know that history and are not doctors.
04-29-2012, 02:43 AM
I did not conclude that low DHT is my entire problem or even the main one. I have done a series of experiments. Initially I suspected high SHBG and high estrogen. Taking an AI was not helpful and had bad side effects. Taking DHT was somewhat helpful but not enough to be sure that is my main issue. Avodart itself could have additional specific sides in me or my immune system issues may be partly responsible. My gut problems which are tied to my immune system issues are also a candidate. The problem with the later 2 issues is that so far I have not solved those problems either. Most of the time my focus has been on these problems but since progress has not been made I have also started to address the newer problems directly that may or may not be related.
There are lots of people that have medical problems beyond the reach of medicine. These can be with or without a diagnosis. Many of those people post on these boards. Haven't you noticed how many people post here that have seen doctors for their problems and got no help? That's why they come here. Of course, they usually don't seem to be getting help here either. It seems that you have been so fortunate as to not had a problem beyond what your doctor knows. If you ever do then you will better understand what I am talking about.
04-29-2012, 04:41 AM
I saw Matrix 3 weeks ago and I am already improving. I saw docs on and off for 10 years and all gave different approaches to my prostate issues. My prostate issues are largely do to my GI issues!
04-29-2012, 10:31 AM
Problem with controlling e2 in some people is the issue of the Cyp 450 and how the drug may be metabolized. In proper modulation of estrogen in general you need to look at the process from start to finish. As noted before elevated SHBG is a response to something else inflammatory going on in the body. (liver, GI, prostate, or some kinds of meds). With out knowing the whole story behind the case it makes it virtually impossible to get the information needed. I had suspicion of what fanzdslpwr1 issue was but it did not dawn on me until I saw the testing results which prompted me to ask a few more detailed solution. His case is similar to mine is that WTF can a person have good e2 levels, good DHT levels end up with BPH? It most likely from the translocation of the bacteria from the GI tract into the prostate. Until you have all the data one can not make any educate recomendations. As I find out many times on forums, what appears as one thing on here is totally different when the person is sitting right there in front of you. I understand there are complex cases which go out side the realm of traditional medicine. These cases take more time and further investigation into other areas such as epigenetics, neurotransmitters, environmental, ect..
04-29-2012, 10:38 AM
05-05-2012, 02:23 PM
Seriously Bro you need to take a look in the mirror and stop focusing on your muscles - your post here describes yourself.
05-05-2012, 05:46 PM
05-06-2012, 11:44 AM
05-06-2012, 07:24 PM
05-06-2012, 08:10 PM
I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm going on memory. As I recall you're about 50 years old and are a distance runner? I used to run 6 miles eod and did so for about 30 years. I noticed I was losing muscle tone and my lifts were getting horrible as I aged. I did some research and found out that running reduces your testosterone levels (confirmed by blood tests I had done later). The "runner's high" may be attributed to increased serotonin secretion, while dopamine is reduced due to less testosterone. It's possible that as you drive the DHT down further (already down due to lower test levels) you're hindering recovery. One study suggests that decreased performance due to taking Proscar is "...most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects. Specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver." And I think you were on the right track in adding DHT to see if you feel better.
In my case I stopped running for reasons I won't go into here and my natural test levels went up, but not high enough for me. I went on AAS, muscles felt great, recovered like the Million Dollar Man and my blood profile was much better on all levels. Then I got carried away and got prostatitis.
So I understand how you place weight on how you feel, but a blood panel, an anti aging blood panel, may help shed light on a lot of things we're just speculating on now. Aromasin can have adverse sides so you may have experienced some of those sides. My recommendation, for what it's worth, is to dry out on everything and let your body stabilize natural homeostasis. Get a blood profile, see how you feel with natural levels of DHT and then make some adjustments if need be. You and I are both concerned about the prostrate. I'm literally staking my life on what I'm telling you, so please reconsider how DHT and E2 affect the prostrate so you never have to worry about cancer.
05-06-2012, 10:57 PM
As for drying out the annoying thing about Avodart is the incredibly long half life. It would take more than 6 months to get down to low levels of the drug. That is why using DHT cream is a much faster way to see if adding back DHT will help. I have restarted the cream at a lower dose and so far have avoided the thermoregulation sides. This side effect is clearly an indirect consequence of higher DHT levels because it takes a while to begin after I start DHT. Again it seems to be helping some but I'm still a long way from recovered.
05-28-2012, 05:44 PM
Then I started aromasin at just .5mg (yes just 1/50th of a tab) for 2 days. Sides were OK so I increased to 7mg for one day. Sex was good. I backed off to 3mg the next day. Still good but running was slower and injury was not responding. My mojo started to ramp up despite cutting the dose back again to only 1.5mg. Mojo still too high (needed sex every day) so cut back to 1mg for a couple days. Sex peaked the next day and I continued to cut back to only .5mg again. At this point my mojo moderated so I slightly increased to .75mg for a couple days. Then my mojo got lower so I increased to 3mg for 2 days. I strained my shoulders doing a head to handstand press. My sense is that this was making me weaker and my running was still slower. Mojo boosted up again so I backed aromasin down to 1.5mg for a couple days. Mojo got low again so I went back to 3mg for 3 days and then 4.5 mg. I ran a 5K race in 21:16 which is slow for me. After that got constipated and sex was bad and lots of fatigue. At this point I stopped aromasin. A few days later things got better and my running got faster again.
My conclusions are:
1) Aromasin did not seem to help with my muscle injuries. In fact it clearly made my running slower and may have made me weaker and contributed to my shoulder injury.
2) The biggest effect of aromasin was on my mojo which went really high for a while but was not sustainable. I do not believe that this was caused by going too low on E2 because my dosages were so small. Instead I believe that feedback loops opposed the changes making me worse than before. Perhaps SHBG dropped and made for more free E2 than before or receptors for E2 got up-regulated. Aromasin affects so many hormones that it is hard to say what was going on.
The bottom line is that aromasin looks like it will not be the answer for me. I can see what people mean about having regulation issues with these AIs but I think the problem is worse that just managing E2 levels. Even though the sides of aromasin were much better than arimidex I never felt that good on the drug. It did not help fatigue and hurt strength.
So I am back to searching for a solution to my muscle issues and other hormonal imbalances. The only thing that seems to help the muscles is MGF but it is not a cure. I think that the matrix is right that gut issues are a big part of this. Unfortunately, I don't know how to do any better than I already have done.
05-29-2012, 07:23 AM
I have real aromasin and it's so small ...real size is like this "O" just about impossible to cut it down and measure. How did you cut the pill?
It's possible you feel fatique, aromasin or any other AI will lower estrogen making your body ache and feel crappy the trick is to take small amounts. Arimidex might be a better choice, easier to control and it stays in your system shorter than aromasin.
05-29-2012, 10:56 AM
I've never in my years heard of this type of response to an AI in such minute doses. I honestly don't think it's the AI making you feel this way. I would look into other issues, as you were saying.
Have you had any sort of testing for fybromyalsia, rheumatic diseases, lupus, etc?
05-29-2012, 12:49 PM
05-29-2012, 12:52 PM
05-29-2012, 02:08 PM
I'm not talking about the effects on sex drive though, but the effects on your muscle/joints etc. Those effects seem severe..which I wouldn't personally attribute to the AI or E2, but would look to other things for the source which may be non-hormonal as well.
05-29-2012, 11:32 PM
05-30-2012, 09:39 AM
07-01-2012, 02:28 AM
I have been off Avodart for another month. To counter potential estrogen issues I have been taking reservatrol, some phytosterols and I3C. I did not take any nettle yet because of my immune deficiency. At this point my serum levels of Avodart should be down to 20% of a full dose. My prostate symptoms returned as expected but the I3C has controlled the prostatitis part fairly well. So far my thermoregulation issues have not returned and reservatrol may deserve the credit for this. There has been more night-time wood - sometimes so much so it keeps me awake - lol. Unfortunately, there has been no improvement in my main problem - muscle/tendon issues. It is starting to look like DHT is not the problem even though the DHT cream seems to help reduce pain in the short term. Still it may be too early to tell as a 20% dose may still be enough to keep my DHT levels below normal.
07-01-2012, 08:24 AM
Just another thought....could you be allergic to some foods which prevents your body to take in necessary nutrients?
This could explain why your body has a hard time recovering and perhaps you also have some inflamation as well.
What do you eat?
Do you have food allergies of any kind?
07-01-2012, 12:19 PM
07-01-2012, 01:04 PM
07-03-2012, 12:07 AM
07-04-2012, 12:25 PM
07-04-2012, 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by hitest
I finding a.lot.of.resolution to these types of issues through using genetic snps
07-07-2012, 10:02 PM
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