muscle repair and DHT

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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    The problem I have with your posts are that it's all in your head. You have no facts to back anything up. You "feel" aromasin" was not working but have no blood work to back it up. In fact, you have nothing to back up anything you're saying except you "feel" a certain way. And you cite Wikipedia as if it were the final say on anything. You made some good points and had you been able to substantiate your claims with some tangible evidence, then your claims would have been very interesting, but you fail to bring any facts to the table, just a "feeling." And true, your c ocky attitude caused me to respond in a like-wise manner, but that's the nature of these boards. You brush off a doctor's advice as if he were some quack. In fact, he's not my doctor but a well respected doctor on this site under "Supplements." Check it out and you may learn something, I did. After having a serious bout of prostatitis last year I dug deeply into prostrate issue and at the time I just "knew" it was DHT. But I didn't go with my feeling, I went with clinical studies, backed up by my own blood work after trying stupid stuff like Saw Palmetto. And I was wrong. It was E2 not DHT that caused prostatitis. I can't prove that with direct evidence, only circumstantial, but at least I didn't rely on a "feeling" to come to a clinical conclusion. I always get blood work done to test any theory I may be working on and never rely on hearsay and never pass on hearsay. I would have just liked to see you back up your claims with blood work and tone done the c ockiness.
    In the end we are all here to learn, myself included. We learn through trial and error. I learned the hard way by almost ended up dead a few times, but from our mistakes people learn. As one Dr told us what makes a good medical professional is being able to admit you are wrong even if the mistake may have ended in some one dying. If a person is willing to admit his mistake it may save multiple lives in the future....Unfortunately people do not see it that why.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    The problem I have with your posts are that it's all in your head. You have no facts to back anything up. You "feel" aromasin" was not working but have no blood work to back it up. In fact, you have nothing to back up anything you're saying except you "feel" a certain way. And you cite Wikipedia as if it were the final say on anything. You made some good points and had you been able to substantiate your claims with some tangible evidence, then your claims would have been very interesting, but you fail to bring any facts to the table, just a "feeling." And true, your c ocky attitude caused me to respond in a like-wise manner, but that's the nature of these boards. You brush off a doctor's advice as if he were some quack. In fact, he's not my doctor but a well respected doctor on this site under "Supplements." Check it out and you may learn something, I did. After having a serious bout of prostatitis last year I dug deeply into prostrate issue and at the time I just "knew" it was DHT. But I didn't go with my feeling, I went with clinical studies, backed up by my own blood work after trying stupid stuff like Saw Palmetto. And I was wrong. It was E2 not DHT that caused prostatitis. I can't prove that with direct evidence, only circumstantial, but at least I didn't rely on a "feeling" to come to a clinical conclusion. I always get blood work done to test any theory I may be working on and never rely on hearsay and never pass on hearsay. I would have just liked to see you back up your claims with blood work and tone done the c ockiness.
    I really don’t understand your comments about discounting how you feel. The only reason I started this thread is that several of my muscles/tendons are painful. All I care about is making them “feel” better so that I can resume full training. There is no lab test to determine that status of my muscles. The problem with aromasin is that I felt worse on the drug. By worse I mean that my previous muscle problems did not improve and my shoulder problems started while I was taking it. It also dramatically slowed my running and had irregular and mostly unwelcome effects on my libido. Why would I want to take a drug that makes me feel worse? The only reason to consider lab testing is to see if my increased symptoms came from driving E2 too low. But I was aware of this issue and started at a very low dose (1/50 pill) and increased very slowly and even my highest dose was very small. So I think it was unlikely that my E2 was too low. Even if I am wrong about this I do not see how I could dose this and keep it in a sweet spot if there even was such a thing for me because I never found a sweet spot. At best it was a moving target.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitest View Post
    I really don’t understand your comments about discounting how you feel. The only reason I started this thread is that several of my muscles/tendons are painful. All I care about is making them “feel” better so that I can resume full training. There is no lab test to determine that status of my muscles. The problem with aromasin is that I felt worse on the drug. By worse I mean that my previous muscle problems did not improve and my shoulder problems started while I was taking it. It also dramatically slowed my running and had irregular and mostly unwelcome effects on my libido. Why would I want to take a drug that makes me feel worse? The only reason to consider lab testing is to see if my increased symptoms came from driving E2 too low. But I was aware of this issue and started at a very low dose (1/50 pill) and increased very slowly and even my highest dose was very small. So I think it was unlikely that my E2 was too low. Even if I am wrong about this I do not see how I could dose this and keep it in a sweet spot if there even was such a thing for me because I never found a sweet spot. At best it was a moving target.
    I went back and re-read your initial post. I think your muscle soreness got subsumed by the discussion on prostrate health, which you mentioned only as a reason for taking Avodart. You really didn’t intend to get into a discussion about the prostrate. I would only urge you to reconsider E2 as a prostrate antagonist, more so than DHT.

    I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm going on memory. As I recall you're about 50 years old and are a distance runner? I used to run 6 miles eod and did so for about 30 years. I noticed I was losing muscle tone and my lifts were getting horrible as I aged. I did some research and found out that running reduces your testosterone levels (confirmed by blood tests I had done later). The "runner's high" may be attributed to increased serotonin secretion, while dopamine is reduced due to less testosterone. It's possible that as you drive the DHT down further (already down due to lower test levels) you're hindering recovery. One study suggests that decreased performance due to taking Proscar is "...most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects. Specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver." And I think you were on the right track in adding DHT to see if you feel better.

    In my case I stopped running for reasons I won't go into here and my natural test levels went up, but not high enough for me. I went on AAS, muscles felt great, recovered like the Million Dollar Man and my blood profile was much better on all levels. Then I got carried away and got prostatitis.

    So I understand how you place weight on how you feel, but a blood panel, an anti aging blood panel, may help shed light on a lot of things we're just speculating on now. Aromasin can have adverse sides so you may have experienced some of those sides. My recommendation, for what it's worth, is to dry out on everything and let your body stabilize natural homeostasis. Get a blood profile, see how you feel with natural levels of DHT and then make some adjustments if need be. You and I are both concerned about the prostrate. I'm literally staking my life on what I'm telling you, so please reconsider how DHT and E2 affect the prostrate so you never have to worry about cancer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    I went back and re-read your initial post. I think your muscle soreness got subsumed by the discussion on prostrate health, which you mentioned only as a reason for taking Avodart. You really didn’t intend to get into a discussion about the prostrate. I would only urge you to reconsider E2 as a prostrate antagonist, more so than DHT.
    I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm going on memory. As I recall you're about 50 years old and are a distance runner?
    Yes, I think the prostate stuff is better for another thread but it is the back story on why I started Avodart.

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    I used to run 6 miles eod and did so for about 30 years. I noticed I was losing muscle tone and my lifts were getting horrible as I aged. I did some research and found out that running reduces your testosterone levels (confirmed by blood tests I had done later). The "runner's high" may be attributed to increased serotonin secretion, while dopamine is reduced due to less testosterone.
    Running does knock down T levels but this is not usually a permanent reduction. They normally come back after some rest albeit perhaps slower for us over 50 year olds.

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    It's possible that as you drive the DHT down further (already down due to lower test levels) you're hindering recovery. One study suggests that decreased performance due to taking Proscar is "...most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects. Specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver." And I think you were on the right track in adding DHT to see if you feel better.
    Avodart crushes DHT levels to below what the typical labs can measure (>95% reduction). This is going to be the dominant factor in DHT. It is very important to note that my running performance and strength did not decrease after I went on Avodart. The only thing that went wrong is my susceptibility to injury and recovery. My first injury started about 1 year after I went on the drug. It was something that should have been sore muscles for a few weeks and then full recovery. Instead it is still a problem 4 years later. I do suspect that DHT is important in the recovery process especially if tendons have been strained.

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    In my case I stopped running for reasons I won't go into here and my natural test levels went up, but not high enough for me. I went on AAS, muscles felt great, recovered like the Million Dollar Man and my blood profile was much better on all levels. Then I got carried away and got prostatitis.
    A while ago I had prostatitis too - but that is a subject for another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    So I understand how you place weight on how you feel, but a blood panel, an anti aging blood panel, may help shed light on a lot of things we're just speculating on now. Aromasin can have adverse sides so you may have experienced some of those sides. My recommendation, for what it's worth, is to dry out on everything and let your body stabilize natural homeostasis. Get a blood profile, see how you feel with natural levels of DHT and then make some adjustments if need be. You and I are both concerned about the prostrate. I'm literally staking my life on what I'm telling you, so please reconsider how DHT and E2 affect the prostrate so you never have to worry about cancer.
    I've had fairly extensive testing now. Only things that registered are high SHBG, slightly high E2 and of course low DHT. I do have another condition that could be a factor as well. I have pan-CD3 lymphopenia. That means low T cells, low B cells and low NK cells. These may also be important for recovery. But this problem predates my injuries by more than Avodart. Nevertheless, as we get older this could become more of a factor.

    As for drying out the annoying thing about Avodart is the incredibly long half life. It would take more than 6 months to get down to low levels of the drug. That is why using DHT cream is a much faster way to see if adding back DHT will help. I have restarted the cream at a lower dose and so far have avoided the thermoregulation sides. This side effect is clearly an indirect consequence of higher DHT levels because it takes a while to begin after I start DHT. Again it seems to be helping some but I'm still a long way from recovered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    How much arimidex and/or aromasin were you taking?
    I don't think I answered this before. For arimidex I started with 1/4 pill and had bad sides right away (it made me dizzy and feel like crap) so I stopped right away. The text below was copied from my previous thread with the answer for aromasin.

    Then I started aromasin at just .5mg (yes just 1/50th of a tab) for 2 days. Sides were OK so I increased to 7mg for one day. Sex was good. I backed off to 3mg the next day. Still good but running was slower and injury was not responding. My mojo started to ramp up despite cutting the dose back again to only 1.5mg. Mojo still too high (needed sex every day) so cut back to 1mg for a couple days. Sex peaked the next day and I continued to cut back to only .5mg again. At this point my mojo moderated so I slightly increased to .75mg for a couple days. Then my mojo got lower so I increased to 3mg for 2 days. I strained my shoulders doing a head to handstand press. My sense is that this was making me weaker and my running was still slower. Mojo boosted up again so I backed aromasin down to 1.5mg for a couple days. Mojo got low again so I went back to 3mg for 3 days and then 4.5 mg. I ran a 5K race in 21:16 which is slow for me. After that got constipated and sex was bad and lots of fatigue. At this point I stopped aromasin. A few days later things got better and my running got faster again.

    My conclusions are:
    1) Aromasin did not seem to help with my muscle injuries. In fact it clearly made my running slower and may have made me weaker and contributed to my shoulder injury.
    2) The biggest effect of aromasin was on my mojo which went really high for a while but was not sustainable. I do not believe that this was caused by going too low on E2 because my dosages were so small. Instead I believe that feedback loops opposed the changes making me worse than before. Perhaps SHBG dropped and made for more free E2 than before or receptors for E2 got up-regulated. Aromasin affects so many hormones that it is hard to say what was going on.

    The bottom line is that aromasin looks like it will not be the answer for me. I can see what people mean about having regulation issues with these AIs but I think the problem is worse that just managing E2 levels. Even though the sides of aromasin were much better than arimidex I never felt that good on the drug. It did not help fatigue and hurt strength.

    So I am back to searching for a solution to my muscle issues and other hormonal imbalances. The only thing that seems to help the muscles is MGF but it is not a cure. I think that the matrix is right that gut issues are a big part of this. Unfortunately, I don't know how to do any better than I already have done.
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    I have real aromasin and it's so small ...real size is like this "O" just about impossible to cut it down and measure. How did you cut the pill?
    It's possible you feel fatique, aromasin or any other AI will lower estrogen making your body ache and feel crappy the trick is to take small amounts. Arimidex might be a better choice, easier to control and it stays in your system shorter than aromasin.
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    I've never in my years heard of this type of response to an AI in such minute doses. I honestly don't think it's the AI making you feel this way. I would look into other issues, as you were saying.

    Have you had any sort of testing for fybromyalsia, rheumatic diseases, lupus, etc?
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I have real aromasin and it's so small ...real size is like this "O" just about impossible to cut it down and measure. How did you cut the pill?
    It's possible you feel fatique, aromasin or any other AI will lower estrogen making your body ache and feel crappy the trick is to take small amounts. Arimidex might be a better choice, easier to control and it stays in your system shorter than aromasin.
    Yeh, this is hard to do. At first I tried to crush it to a powder and dissolve in liquid and dose by measuring amounts with eye dropper. Problem is that aromasin doesn't dissolve easily so you had to shake it right before measuring. I switched to cutting off slivers. I have access to a high precision lab scale that can measure very small amounts. Arimidex made me feel very bad right away as I noted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I've never in my years heard of this type of response to an AI in such minute doses. I honestly don't think it's the AI making you feel this way. I would look into other issues, as you were saying.

    Have you had any sort of testing for fybromyalsia, rheumatic diseases, lupus, etc?
    The drug effects were huge. The diseases you listed do not drive your mojo through the roof. I think the effects may have been more pronounced because I take Avodart.
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    I'm not talking about the effects on sex drive though, but the effects on your muscle/joints etc. Those effects seem severe..which I wouldn't personally attribute to the AI or E2, but would look to other things for the source which may be non-hormonal as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I'm not talking about the effects on sex drive though, but the effects on your muscle/joints etc. Those effects seem severe..which I wouldn't personally attribute to the AI or E2, but would look to other things for the source which may be non-hormonal as well.
    At the moment I think the avodart is the most likely culprit for my muscle/tendon issues. I have been weening myself off this drug this month. I'm at about 40% full dose serum levels now. There has been some improvement in my knee injury so far. For sure I have other issues that may predispose me to more problems. I have a history of gut issues and pan-CD3 lymphopenia. But these predate the muscle problems by a long time. My first muscle problems started within the first year of starting avodart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitest View Post
    Yeh, this is hard to do. At first I tried to crush it to a powder and dissolve in liquid and dose by measuring amounts with eye dropper. Problem is that aromasin doesn't dissolve easily so you had to shake it right before measuring. I switched to cutting off slivers. I have access to a high precision lab scale that can measure very small amounts. Arimidex made me feel very bad right away as I noted.
    It makes sense somewhat, arimidex works rather quickly compared to aromasin which take up to 7 days to clear your system. I tend to agree with the other poster avodart may cause some odd drug interactions with arimidex and aromasin.
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    I have been off Avodart for another month. To counter potential estrogen issues I have been taking reservatrol, some phytosterols and I3C. I did not take any nettle yet because of my immune deficiency. At this point my serum levels of Avodart should be down to 20% of a full dose. My prostate symptoms returned as expected but the I3C has controlled the prostatitis part fairly well. So far my thermoregulation issues have not returned and reservatrol may deserve the credit for this. There has been more night-time wood - sometimes so much so it keeps me awake - lol. Unfortunately, there has been no improvement in my main problem - muscle/tendon issues. It is starting to look like DHT is not the problem even though the DHT cream seems to help reduce pain in the short term. Still it may be too early to tell as a 20% dose may still be enough to keep my DHT levels below normal.
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    Just another thought....could you be allergic to some foods which prevents your body to take in necessary nutrients?
    This could explain why your body has a hard time recovering and perhaps you also have some inflamation as well.
    What do you eat?
    Do you have food allergies of any kind?
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    Quote Originally Posted by daAMx View Post
    Well actually DHT itself technically decreases growth hormone levels, but it increases IGF-1 binding sites from what I hear. So it's DHT + Test + IGF-1 + E2 are all necessary for healing. People who have low estrogen but high DHT tend to have lower growth hormone levels. DHT might be good to balance E2 out. You might also want to look into the new healing peptides ACT-1 and BPC157.
    Hey daAMx, thanks for the post. For sure it is a mix of stuff needed for healing including E2. I'm a big fan of peptides but somehow I missed these. I will check them out. I know these are not addressing the root cause but I'll take whatever help I can get while I figure it out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Just another thought....could you be allergic to some foods which prevents your body to take in necessary nutrients?
    This could explain why your body has a hard time recovering and perhaps you also have some inflamation as well.
    What do you eat?
    Do you have food allergies of any kind?
    I have a history of food intolerances but not allergies. These have gotten a lot better. But I also have a history that is a form of irritable bowel syndrome that has gotten worse. For sure I have some malabsorption problems but these are on the side of too much. I don't have any nutrient deficiencies show up on tests. In fact my B12 is elevated. Still my gut is likely part of the problem. My gut is leaking microbial products causing chronic immune activation. This is either a cause or effect of my lymphopenia. Since the immune system is also involved in injury repair this could be part of it. But this problem predates my healing problems although the IBS aspects have gotten worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitest View Post
    I have a history of food intolerances but not allergies. These have gotten a lot better. But I also have a history that is a form of irritable bowel syndrome that has gotten worse. For sure I have some malabsorption problems but these are on the side of too much. I don't have any nutrient deficiencies show up on tests. In fact my B12 is elevated. Still my gut is likely part of the problem. My gut is leaking microbial products causing chronic immune activation. This is either a cause or effect of my lymphopenia. Since the immune system is also involved in injury repair this could be part of it. But this problem predates my healing problems although the IBS aspects have gotten worse.
    Could be that is just got worse. It just seems to me that you are not geting enough nutrients into your system thus the muscle cant repair itself properly. Did you ever try to eliminate wheat(celliac?) and stick with more protein and higher fat?
    Might be worth a try.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Could be that is just got worse. It just seems to me that you are not geting enough nutrients into your system thus the muscle cant repair itself properly. Did you ever try to eliminate wheat(celliac?) and stick with more protein and higher fat?
    Might be worth a try.
    I did eliminate wheat and tried every other kind of diet too. No diet can fix my problems. That would be way too easy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitest

    I did eliminate wheat and tried every other kind of diet too. No diet can fix my problems. That would be way too easy.

    I finding a.lot.of.resolution to these types of issues through using genetic snps
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    I finding a.lot.of.resolution to these types of issues through using genetic snps
    What do you mean by "genetic snps"? I'm aware of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) as a form of genetic mutation but this is not something you can use - it is something that you have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitest

    What do you mean by "genetic snps"? I'm aware of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) as a form of genetic mutation but this is not something you can use - it is something that you have.
    Yes its something that now.can.hold.key to knowing what person metabolic detoxication pathways are not working properly and.how.to what can be done over come.them. Not to.many.drs are even aware of these in.medicine, but i.have made.several.aware of.them. By doing so, they are changing their approach to certain cases. People who have been house bound for along tIme are now starting to.move outside being social. People.in wheel chairs are getting up.and walking for.first time.in.years. In drs want to stay.in their comfort zones doing hormones fine. I am.moving the ball.forward with Drs.who.want to.be able.to.deal with the whole.person to.get a better over all approach.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    This is an update. I have been off of Avodart since May. The amount of drug left in my system is probably around 5% or less. I noticed that my shoulders started feeling better so I very slowly resumed my pushups and pullups. All was well until I got back to 25 pushups and 8 pullups. Then I had another set back and now cannot do anything for a while. So my recovery got even less far than the previous one where I got back to 38 pushups and 19 pull ups. I don't think I can blame my poor recovery on Avodart any more although it is true that once the tendons are injured they don't come back to full strength.

    I should add that shortly after I resumed training I also tried BPC-157. Obviously this did not prevent my set-back so this is a disappointment. It is possible that it deserves some credit for improved digestive tract symptoms but that is hard to say.

    After my set back I decided to try Nettle extract as this is supposed to help with inflammation and tendons in particular according to some things I read. Surprisingly this seemed to increase my shoulder pain to sharp shooting pains I did not have before. I stopped and the pain lessened. To test this again I restarted last Thursday and again I noticed more pain and my knee injury was also aggravated more than usual by my running. So I stopped taking it again today. I will try this some more later to see if this keeps happening because it seems really odd.

    On a side note I went ziplining last weekend which required some leg lift like motions. This was not a very strenuous activity. Nevertheless I had quite a bit of pain in the connective tissue from my groin to my ribcage. I stopped using those muscles this past week and the pain has improved but only time will tell if I have any trouble resuming my abdominal exercises.

    I'm very frustrated. At this point I thinking about trying other tissue repair peptides like TB 500.
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    Muscle/tendon problems


    hitest,

    You're not the only one here with muscle/tendon problems likely related to Avodart. I was on finisteride for a few years, then upgraded to Avodart as I had some BPH issues and was also starting to lose some hair. Miraculously, both problems were basically resolved within six months of starting Avodart. But in the past four years, I've also noticed a lot of nagging injuries that just won't fully heal. Massage and ice have helped, but whenever I return to training, the injuries return.

    It started with pulled calfs from toe-running (still dealing with them 18 months later despite quitting running entirely last winter), then several shoulder problems, which stopped me from doing pushups, pull-ups, military press, etc. (plus an AC joint operation which really helped one side, and cortisol on the other), then forearm and bicep issues from curls (stopped those six months ago, not fully healed yet), quad, patella, and ham issues (stopped squats and other leg exercises a year ago, still not fully healed), finger issues from climbing (which I also quit a year ago), and minor neck pulls that are ongoing. Basically, I've stopped doing anything except restorative yoga and distance walking in order to allow my injuries to heal.

    I found a recent post online by a distance runner who quit Avodart and his muscle injuries went away, so I quit Avodart myself 6 weeks ago, am taking lots of hot tubs/steams to get the stuff out of my system. The big question is whether we can get back more or less, to normal. After reading your post and comments by others, I'm more convinced than ever that DHT is necessary for muscle repair, and I'm hoping that getting DHT up again will allow for a full, or at least a 90% recovery. At this point, I'm a lot less concerned about the hair thing, and if BPH becomes a problem, the latest medical advances are pretty good and I'm fine with doing one of those. I'd rather have my DHT than quit all sports and have to live on Ibuprofin!

    You're ahead of me on the recovery road. Have you made any progress?

    Thanks for having shared your story. Its nice to know I'm not the only one in this...
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    Hitest, I've been using Avodart, and formerly Propecia, and have the same problem with muscle/tendon repair as you. I've had strained calfs, pulled ham, frozen shoulder, AC joint surgery on the other shoulder, and neck and arm muscles pulls. After about five years of this nonsense, I quit Avodart six months ago and with aggressive physical therapy and Graston work, and starting to return to normal. Given the short half-life of DHT, I'm not sure why this process has taken so long. How is your progress? Are you still on Avodart?
  

  
 

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