Clomid a TRT Alternative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    Then how come drs are starting to use clomid for trt since it maintains the hormone cascade in a more intact manner than straight test?
    Because many doctors dont want to deal with a scheduled drug. It has a stigma attached to it.So they try the micky mouse approach they figure why not.Some dont even deal with injectibles only patches and gels which doent really work all that well either.
    Fact is that I have plenty of clomid around and everytime I take it I feel like ****, as simple as that. I choose HCG which I dont really like either but is the better of the 2 for me anyway and I only take it sparingly.
    Im not trying to give you a hard just giving you a bro science real life example

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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Because many doctors dont want to deal with a scheduled drug. It has a stigma attached to it.So they try the micky mouse approach they figure why not.Some dont even deal with injectibles only patches and gels which doent really work all that well either.
    Fact is that I have plenty of clomid around and everytime I take it I feel like ****, as simple as that. I choose HCG which I dont really like either but is the better of the 2 for me anyway and I only take it sparingly.
    Im not trying to give you a hard just giving you a bro science real life example
    The problem is that many drs are not taking care of the proper issues before putting people on clomid to get maxium benefit. People I have worked with Dr's had them do clomid challenge then failed. I suggested dr to put them back on TRT till we explore why then correct it. After the imbalance was found 4 months later, the body was now ready to get the green light to try again. Bingo !! success...some people have been on it 12.5 mgs every 2-3 days holding at 700 plus feeling great due to body and mind was completely balanced.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    The problem is that many drs are not taking care of the proper issues before putting people on clomid to get maxium benefit. People I have worked with Dr's had them do clomid challenge then failed. I suggested dr to put them back on TRT till we explore why then correct it. After the imbalance was found 4 months later, the body was now ready to get the green light to try again. Bingo !! success...some people have been on it 12.5 mgs every 2-3 days holding at 700 plus feeling great due to body and mind was completely balanced.
    Clomid is not for everyone. Many ppl exibit emotional issues on it and personally I dont think is safe to use long term.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille

    Clomid is not for everyone. Many ppl exibit emotional issues on it and personally I dont think is safe to use long term.
    Based on what science? I have yet to see a study showing problems or side effects in low doses. Most people do not see side effects until overdose at 50-150 mg a day.
    Testosterone is not always the answer especially since its use can cause shutdown of multiple systems.
    If you ask me there should be long term studies done specifically for male hormone therapy because it does have great potential and is a VERY cheap drug.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Clomid is not for everyone. Many ppl exibit emotional issues on it and personally I dont think is safe to use long term.
    At dosages of 25-50 mgs it can cause long term side effects agreed, but using dosages at 12.5 mgs every few days I see it having more benefits then risk. Again the protocol are individualized and based upon bioindivduality. Clomid may not work for certain people why they need to be under proper medical supervision while using it.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    Based on what science? I have yet to see a study showing problems or side effects in low doses. Most people do not see side effects until overdose at 50-150 mg a day.
    Testosterone is not always the answer especially since its use can cause shutdown of multiple systems.
    If you ask me there should be long term studies done specifically for male hormone therapy because it does have great potential and is a VERY cheap drug.
    Based on the science that I have not yet seen a person on clomid treatment 10+ years. Show me examples and I would like talk to them to comfirm your theory.
    On the other hand there are plenty of ppl on testosterone therapy for 10+years.
    Besides I have not seen any long term studies on clomid of 10-20years and it's funny the drug has been around for many years...wonder why!
    What Im concerned about is that ppl start jumping on something without doing their due diligence. Much like ppl taking statins for high cholesterol without understanding what cholesterol does and the sides of those statins.
    Listen, I've taken clomid and I cant, from my personal use, recommend it long term.
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    I have been on 12.5mg eod for about five weeks. I have responded very well so far. Strength and endurance are up. Recovery is solid. sleeping better. Up a few lbs and down 1.5 inches on the waist. Will get blood work in 3 wks. Overall I feel a lot better than I did before. More like I did in my late 20s.
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    Quote Originally Posted by badidea
    I have been on 12.5mg eod for about five weeks. I have responded very well so far. Strength and endurance are up. Recovery is solid. sleeping better. Up a few lbs and down 1.5 inches on the waist. Will get blood work in 3 wks. Overall I feel a lot better than I did before. More like I did in my late 20s.
    Nice. If you don't mind sharing, how young are you?
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    42. No previous aas use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    At dosages of 25-50 mgs it can cause long term side effects agreed, but using dosages at 12.5 mgs every few days I see it having more benefits then risk. Again the protocol are individualized and based upon bioindivduality. Clomid may not work for certain people why they need to be under proper medical supervision while using it.
    Really? Like what? Because over 3 years there are no documented side effects. Please post something other than "my doctors office..."

    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Based on the science that I have not yet seen a person on clomid treatment 10+ years. Show me examples and I would like talk to them to comfirm your theory.
    On the other hand there are plenty of ppl on testosterone therapy for 10+years.
    Besides I have not seen any long term studies on clomid of 10-20years and it's funny the drug has been around for many years...wonder why!
    What Im concerned about is that ppl start jumping on something without doing their due diligence. Much like ppl taking statins for high cholesterol without understanding what cholesterol does and the sides of those statins.
    Listen, I've taken clomid and I cant, from my personal use, recommend it long term.

    3 years...safe. That was just done this year. Just because it's been a drug for a long time does not mean it was originally intended to treat hypogonadism. Most people don't care what x=1 recommends, especially on the internet. What they care about is how it performs over significantly more people subjected to controls.

    BJU Int. 2012 Mar 28. doi: 10.1111/j.1464-410X.2012.10968.x. [Epub ahead of print]Clomiphene citrate is safe and effective for long-term management of hypogonadism.

    Moskovic DJ, Katz DJ, Akhavan A, Park K, Mulhall JP.
    Source

    Sexual & Reproductive Medicine Program, Urology Service, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY, USA.

    Abstract

    Study Type - Therapy (population cohort) Level of Evidence 2a What's known on the subject? and What does the study add? Clomiphene citrate (CC) has previously been documented to be efficacious in the treatment of hypogonadism. However little is known about the long term efficacy andsafety of CC. Our study demonstrates that CC is efficacious after 3 years of therapy. Testosterone levels and bone mineral density measurement improved significantly and were sustained over this prolonged period. Subjective improvements were also demonstrated. No adverse events were reported.
    OBJECTIVE:

    •  To assess the efficacy and safety of long-term clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in symptomatic patients with hypogonadism (HG).
    PATIENTS AND METHODS:

    •  Serum T, oestradiol and luteinizing hormone (LH) were measured in patients who were treated with CC for over 12 months. •  Additionally, bone densitometry (BD) results were collected for all patients. Demographic, comorbidity, treatment and Androgen Deficiency in Aging Men (ADAM) score data were also recorded. •  Comparison was made between baseline and post-treatment variables, and multivariable analysis was conducted to define predictors of successful response to CC. •  The main outcome measures were predictors of response and long-term results with long-term CC therapy in hypogonadal patients.
    RESULTS:

    •  The 46 patients (mean age 44 years) had baseline serum testosterone (T) levels of 228 ng/dL. •  Follow-up T levels were 612 ng/dL at 1 year, 562 ng/dL at 2 years, and 582 ng/dL at 3 years (P < 0.001). •  Mean femoral neck and lumbar spine BD scores improved significantly. •  ADAM scores (and responses) fell from a baseline of 7 to a nadir of 3 after 1 year. •  No adverse events were reported by any patients.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    •  Clomiphene citrate is an effective long-term therapy for HG in appropriate patients. •  The drug raises T levels substantially in addition to improving other manifestations of HG such as osteopenia/osteoporosis and ADAM symptoms.

    2012 THE AUTHORS. BJU INTERNATIONAL 2012 BJU INTERNATIONAL.
    ForeRunner Labs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Really? Like what? Because over 3 years there are no documented side effects. Please post something other than "my doctors office..."




    3 years...safe. That was just done this year. Just because it's been a drug for a long time does not mean it was originally intended to treat hypogonadism. Most people don't care what x=1 recommends, especially on the internet. What they care about is how it performs over significantly more people subjected to controls.
    Clomid does have sides maybe you the lucky one who can tolerate it.
    2nd, it doesnt work for ppl who have gonad problems.
    Over all does not address the entire picture in regards to low test.
    So with it's sides and limited use only appeal to very few ppl.
    Not to forget clomid is a SERM which is not something our bodies make, so it does act like a weak estrogen and attach itself to certain receptors where clomid has no business attaching itself to, which prevents other hormons from doing their job.
    I would like to hear from more ppl who takes it for HRT.
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    I would say that most every time I have read about side effects with clomid the doses were way higher than 12.5mgs eod. It appears the low dose option has not led to side effects. I am no expert but I feel I have reviewed every single forum post I could find using google. So far I have experienced no unwanted side effects. However, I am only on week five....
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    Quote Originally Posted by badidea
    I would say that most every time I have read about side effects with clomid the doses were way higher than 12.5mgs eod. It appears the low dose option has not led to side effects. I am no expert but I feel I have reviewed every single forum post I could find using google. So far I have experienced no unwanted side effects. However, I am only on week five....
    Please continue to update good sir!
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    Quote Originally Posted by badidea View Post
    I would say that most every time I have read about side effects with clomid the doses were way higher than 12.5mgs eod. It appears the low dose option has not led to side effects. I am no expert but I feel I have reviewed every single forum post I could find using google. So far I have experienced no unwanted side effects. However, I am only on week five....
    Point I was making.....
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Matrix - you were the first person i came across to discuss the low dose option and turned me onto the idea. After much research my doctor and I decided it was a viable option and so far so good. Thanks for all you do to pass information along. Educating yourself and having a good relationship with a doctor are the key to long term health in my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by badidea View Post
    Matrix - you were the first person i came across to discuss the low dose option and turned me onto the idea. After much research my doctor and I decided it was a viable option and so far so good. Thanks for all you do to pass information along. Educating yourself and having a good relationship with a doctor are the key to long term health in my opinion.
    You need to keep digging because there are still underlying issues which may come back to haunt you. If your Dr is interested I be glad to speak to him to see about what it is that I do. With each Dr I work with these are all explored to prevent this from happening. The end result is it compliments the current treatment and may resolve other lagging issues this approach does not. I have just begun...I have been invited over to europe by the owner opening up a center who has MD on staff. We plan on taking what I do over here to across the pond . Most centers over there are out dated or just push hormones on people never resolving the issue potentially causing more problems. As I get more detailed with cases actually starting to get one on one with the specialists then things are really going to take off. For now the client notified me which Dr or Dr's they are working on their cases, but getting stagnant looking for other alternatives. Not mentioned names or anything due to professional courtesy because they are doing their best. In no way am I talking trash on any one.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    I would think that Repros Inc, who is in the midst of their next phase of testing enclomiphene citrate (Androxal) for the long term treatment of secondary hypogonadism, says enough about lower doses and the safety of such, in addition to this other study in the TS post.

    If they get this approved, maybe by 2014 if the FDA doesn't get in the way, the protocol is daily dosing forever basically 12.5/25mg.
  

  
 

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