Clomid a TRT Alternative?

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  1. Has anyone experimented with Torem for this purpose?


  2. Quote Originally Posted by supermanjow View Post
    Has anyone experimented with Torem for this purpose?
    there is one study that shows it can increase testosterone.
    http://www.fertstert.org/article/S00...070-2/abstract
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17412336

    they had men who were not fertile and gave them 60mg a day of toremifene and at the end 22% of the men had achieved pregnancy. they state there was a statistically significant increase n testosterone, but that could mean as little as 5%.

    if you decide to go with toremifene you will be your own science experiment.

    Personally i would stick with Clomid, its cheaper, far more plentiful, more proven, and you can run a much smaller dose to be effective.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    there is one study that shows it can increase testosterone.
    http://www.fertstert.org/article/S00...070-2/abstract
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17412336

    they had men who were not fertile and gave them 60mg a day of toremifene and at the end 22% of the men had achieved pregnancy. they state there was a statistically significant increase n testosterone, but that could mean as little as 5%.

    if you decide to go with toremifene you will be your own science experiment.

    Personally i would stick with Clomid, its cheaper, far more plentiful, more proven, and you can run a much smaller dose to be effective.
    What about Nolva? I would assume it would have the same effect. I prefer it over clomid for the sides.

  4. What kind of side effects do you get at 12.5 mg clomid e3d? I have read that nolvadex is e even less effective than toremifene for elevating testosterone.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    What kind of side effects do you get at 12.5 mg clomid e3d? I have read that nolvadex is e even less effective than toremifene for elevating testosterone.

    Yea I dunno if thats enough to see sides or not?. I hear from some guys that clomid messes with their eyes and I have bad eyes already so I dont want to chance it. Maybe its worth a shot at the low dose.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Bubbagump

    Yea I dunno if thats enough to see sides or not?. I hear from some guys that clomid messes with their eyes and I have bad eyes already so I dont want to chance it. Maybe its worth a shot at the low dose.
    I had slightly spotted vision, and random times, nothing significant or permanent though.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by lboston View Post
    I had slightly spotted vision, and random times, nothing significant or permanent though.
    What dose?
    Always open light. Itís not what you open with, itís what you finish with. Louie Simmons

  8. Quote Originally Posted by AZMIDLYF

    What dose?
    25mgs ED. If u ever use it again for TRT it will be less days per week.

  9. I will be giving it a go for a PCT soon. I will be starting at 50mg ed first 2 weeks and 50 eod 3rd week, then 25mg eod for the 4th.
    Always open light. Itís not what you open with, itís what you finish with. Louie Simmons

  10. Quote Originally Posted by lboston View Post
    I had slightly spotted vision, and random times, nothing significant or permanent though.

    Hmmm. Maybe Ill give it a try at the low dose. Im running nolva for pct right now. Any guess how long I shoul wait after pct is done to do the clomid? Go natty for as long as I cycled (after pct) then clomid?

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Bubbagump

    Hmmm. Maybe Ill give it a try at the low dose. Im running nolva for pct right now. Any guess how long I shoul wait after pct is done to do the clomid? Go natty for as long as I cycled (after pct) then clomid?
    I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but i would think it wouldn't really make a difference.
    You could even use Clomid in you PCT and then just carry on with the low dose for "TrT" purposes.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by lboston View Post
    I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but i would think it wouldn't really make a difference.
    You could even use Clomid in you PCT and then just carry on with the low dose for "TrT" purposes.
    Ok. I guess I was looking at it from the natural hormone balance standpoint.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Bubbagump

    Ok. I guess I was looking at it from the natural hormone balance standpoint.
    Well, even though Clomid can and will raise "natural" test levels by increasing LH, it is not quite the same as being natural. It's still a compound used to increase test, it's just not exogenous test.

    Seems to be effective though!

  14. Quote Originally Posted by lboston View Post
    I had slightly spotted vision, and random times, nothing significant or permanent though.
    Screw that noise. When I heard from my endo that vision problems can be a common side effect, it was immediately off the table.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by kisaj

    Screw that noise. When I heard from my endo that vision problems can be a common side effect, it was immediately off the table.
    Common over the counter medications can cause permanent liver damage and death. Clomid Is a lot safer in small sensible doses. If you want the side effects follow bro science dosing schedules such as 50,100, or 150 milligrams per day.

  16. Yeah, I appreciate the knowledge- I get it. Still...screw that.

  17. There is a reason ppl get prescribed test for HRT and not clomid. Short term clomid is ok but I wouldnt take for any length of time.

  18. Then how come drs are starting to use clomid for trt since it maintains the hormone cascade in a more intact manner than straight test?

  19. How many doctors do you believe are actually doing that, first of all. Secondly, we know how many doctors don't understand anything about HRT, so this wouldn't really be surprising if it was actually happening. Even the most incompetent doctors I saw knew that clomid was only to try to "kickstart" natural production and if it didn't work in a couple months, it was time to come off.

    Also, if someone plans to be on TRT/HRT, it's for life anyway. Why would you not choose to go the most natural route with the greatest success- test? I don't get the point of experimenting with other things that mimic test if it is lifelong.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    Then how come drs are starting to use clomid for trt since it maintains the hormone cascade in a more intact manner than straight test?
    Because many doctors dont want to deal with a scheduled drug. It has a stigma attached to it.So they try the micky mouse approach they figure why not.Some dont even deal with injectibles only patches and gels which doent really work all that well either.
    Fact is that I have plenty of clomid around and everytime I take it I feel like ****, as simple as that. I choose HCG which I dont really like either but is the better of the 2 for me anyway and I only take it sparingly.
    Im not trying to give you a hard just giving you a bro science real life example

  21. Quote Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    Then how come drs are starting to use clomid for trt since it maintains the hormone cascade in a more intact manner than straight test?
    Because many doctors dont want to deal with a scheduled drug. It has a stigma attached to it.So they try the micky mouse approach they figure why not.Some dont even deal with injectibles only patches and gels which doent really work all that well either.
    Fact is that I have plenty of clomid around and everytime I take it I feel like ****, as simple as that. I choose HCG which I dont really like either but is the better of the 2 for me anyway and I only take it sparingly.
    Im not trying to give you a hard just giving you a bro science real life example

  22. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Because many doctors dont want to deal with a scheduled drug. It has a stigma attached to it.So they try the micky mouse approach they figure why not.Some dont even deal with injectibles only patches and gels which doent really work all that well either.
    Fact is that I have plenty of clomid around and everytime I take it I feel like ****, as simple as that. I choose HCG which I dont really like either but is the better of the 2 for me anyway and I only take it sparingly.
    Im not trying to give you a hard just giving you a bro science real life example
    The problem is that many drs are not taking care of the proper issues before putting people on clomid to get maxium benefit. People I have worked with Dr's had them do clomid challenge then failed. I suggested dr to put them back on TRT till we explore why then correct it. After the imbalance was found 4 months later, the body was now ready to get the green light to try again. Bingo !! success...some people have been on it 12.5 mgs every 2-3 days holding at 700 plus feeling great due to body and mind was completely balanced.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    The problem is that many drs are not taking care of the proper issues before putting people on clomid to get maxium benefit. People I have worked with Dr's had them do clomid challenge then failed. I suggested dr to put them back on TRT till we explore why then correct it. After the imbalance was found 4 months later, the body was now ready to get the green light to try again. Bingo !! success...some people have been on it 12.5 mgs every 2-3 days holding at 700 plus feeling great due to body and mind was completely balanced.
    Clomid is not for everyone. Many ppl exibit emotional issues on it and personally I dont think is safe to use long term.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by vassille

    Clomid is not for everyone. Many ppl exibit emotional issues on it and personally I dont think is safe to use long term.
    Based on what science? I have yet to see a study showing problems or side effects in low doses. Most people do not see side effects until overdose at 50-150 mg a day.
    Testosterone is not always the answer especially since its use can cause shutdown of multiple systems.
    If you ask me there should be long term studies done specifically for male hormone therapy because it does have great potential and is a VERY cheap drug.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Clomid is not for everyone. Many ppl exibit emotional issues on it and personally I dont think is safe to use long term.
    At dosages of 25-50 mgs it can cause long term side effects agreed, but using dosages at 12.5 mgs every few days I see it having more benefits then risk. Again the protocol are individualized and based upon bioindivduality. Clomid may not work for certain people why they need to be under proper medical supervision while using it.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    Based on what science? I have yet to see a study showing problems or side effects in low doses. Most people do not see side effects until overdose at 50-150 mg a day.
    Testosterone is not always the answer especially since its use can cause shutdown of multiple systems.
    If you ask me there should be long term studies done specifically for male hormone therapy because it does have great potential and is a VERY cheap drug.
    Based on the science that I have not yet seen a person on clomid treatment 10+ years. Show me examples and I would like talk to them to comfirm your theory.
    On the other hand there are plenty of ppl on testosterone therapy for 10+years.
    Besides I have not seen any long term studies on clomid of 10-20years and it's funny the drug has been around for many years...wonder why!
    What Im concerned about is that ppl start jumping on something without doing their due diligence. Much like ppl taking statins for high cholesterol without understanding what cholesterol does and the sides of those statins.
    Listen, I've taken clomid and I cant, from my personal use, recommend it long term.

  27. I have been on 12.5mg eod for about five weeks. I have responded very well so far. Strength and endurance are up. Recovery is solid. sleeping better. Up a few lbs and down 1.5 inches on the waist. Will get blood work in 3 wks. Overall I feel a lot better than I did before. More like I did in my late 20s.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by badidea
    I have been on 12.5mg eod for about five weeks. I have responded very well so far. Strength and endurance are up. Recovery is solid. sleeping better. Up a few lbs and down 1.5 inches on the waist. Will get blood work in 3 wks. Overall I feel a lot better than I did before. More like I did in my late 20s.
    Nice. If you don't mind sharing, how young are you?

  29. 42. No previous aas use.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    At dosages of 25-50 mgs it can cause long term side effects agreed, but using dosages at 12.5 mgs every few days I see it having more benefits then risk. Again the protocol are individualized and based upon bioindivduality. Clomid may not work for certain people why they need to be under proper medical supervision while using it.
    Really? Like what? Because over 3 years there are no documented side effects. Please post something other than "my doctors office..."

    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Based on the science that I have not yet seen a person on clomid treatment 10+ years. Show me examples and I would like talk to them to comfirm your theory.
    On the other hand there are plenty of ppl on testosterone therapy for 10+years.
    Besides I have not seen any long term studies on clomid of 10-20years and it's funny the drug has been around for many years...wonder why!
    What Im concerned about is that ppl start jumping on something without doing their due diligence. Much like ppl taking statins for high cholesterol without understanding what cholesterol does and the sides of those statins.
    Listen, I've taken clomid and I cant, from my personal use, recommend it long term.

    3 years...safe. That was just done this year. Just because it's been a drug for a long time does not mean it was originally intended to treat hypogonadism. Most people don't care what x=1 recommends, especially on the internet. What they care about is how it performs over significantly more people subjected to controls.

    BJU Int. 2012 Mar 28. doi: 10.1111/j.1464-410X.2012.10968.x. [Epub ahead of print]Clomiphene citrate is safe and effective for long-term management of hypogonadism.

    Moskovic DJ, Katz DJ, Akhavan A, Park K, Mulhall JP.
    Source

    Sexual & Reproductive Medicine Program, Urology Service, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY, USA.

    Abstract

    Study Type - Therapy (population cohort) Level of Evidence 2a What's known on the subject? and What does the study add? Clomiphene citrate (CC) has previously been documented to be efficacious in the treatment of hypogonadism. However little is known about the long term efficacy andsafety of CC. Our study demonstrates that CC is efficacious after 3 years of therapy. Testosterone levels and bone mineral density measurement improved significantly and were sustained over this prolonged period. Subjective improvements were also demonstrated. No adverse events were reported.
    OBJECTIVE:

    •  To assess the efficacy and safety of long-term clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in symptomatic patients with hypogonadism (HG).
    PATIENTS AND METHODS:

    •  Serum T, oestradiol and luteinizing hormone (LH) were measured in patients who were treated with CC for over 12 months. •  Additionally, bone densitometry (BD) results were collected for all patients. Demographic, comorbidity, treatment and Androgen Deficiency in Aging Men (ADAM) score data were also recorded. •  Comparison was made between baseline and post-treatment variables, and multivariable analysis was conducted to define predictors of successful response to CC. •  The main outcome measures were predictors of response and long-term results with long-term CC therapy in hypogonadal patients.
    RESULTS:

    •  The 46 patients (mean age 44 years) had baseline serum testosterone (T) levels of 228 ng/dL. •  Follow-up T levels were 612 ng/dL at 1 year, 562 ng/dL at 2 years, and 582 ng/dL at 3 years (P < 0.001). •  Mean femoral neck and lumbar spine BD scores improved significantly. •  ADAM scores (and responses) fell from a baseline of 7 to a nadir of 3 after 1 year. •  No adverse events were reported by any patients.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    •  Clomiphene citrate is an effective long-term therapy for HG in appropriate patients. •  The drug raises T levels substantially in addition to improving other manifestations of HG such as osteopenia/osteoporosis and ADAM symptoms.

    © 2012 THE AUTHORS. BJU INTERNATIONAL © 2012 BJU INTERNATIONAL.
    ForeRunner Labs
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