Low levels--especially FreeT--Labs included, what now?

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    Low levels--especially FreeT--Labs included, what now?


    Hello everyone-

    OK, so here we go. I am 41 years old 6'4" and weigh 275. Last year I went to an MDoc to make sure or rule out any major illness such as diabetes or thyroid etc. I had not had labs taken since my ETS physical leaving the military back in 95. I have always been in decent shape weighing between 220-245 from age 25-35. In the last few years I have been gaining some weight and the last 18 months I have been feeling very sluggish and not the same energy as normal. I have always been highly motivated-high strung-go go go type and things were different. I will say there has been some stress due to inability to conceive and some financial challenges. So, the doc i went to ruled out diabetes and thyroid etc. My fasting blood glucose levels have been semi-high around 110-120, but an a1c was normal. So he decided to have my Testosterone levels tested. My original labs were done in the fall of 2010, Nov 10 and here were the results: from Labcorps...

    14013- Testosterone, free and total

    Testosterone serum: 362 ng/dl 280-800
    Free testosterone (direct): 8.3 pg/ml 6.8-21.5 This was all he tested apparently!!! No LH or FSH, E2, etc.

    He called me and said he had identified the issue---Low T, and explained that he had some options for me to consider. The reason I went to doc in first place was I was concerned about my fluctuating weight gains. He told me Test would help me to gain some lean muscle (inc. my metabolism, and lose some belly fat). This sounded very good to me cause it seemed my metabolism was slowing down. So I rcvd my 1st shot on Dec. 12th of 200mg Test cyp, and he said to come back at beginning of the year and would go from there. I weighed 275 at beginning of December. By end of Dec. I went back to doc Jan. 8th and was now up to low 280's, and I did not feel anything from this 1 shot, and had started to research on these forums, and thought I should do weekly. Now keep in mind at this point he never once mentioned TRT HRT, lifetime or explained a plan. He just mentioned taking 8-10 shots and then retesting., and explained the benefits of gaining some muscle and helping to lose some fat. So he agreed to do weekly injections of 200mg test cyp. So i began weekly injections then --beginning of year. After the 4th shot I started to feel much better (energy, motivation etc.), however, I was now up to 295, and meantime I had joined 3 different sites--Elitefitness, ****, and here, and began learning about all of this HRT and AAS, PCT's etc. I know my strength was exploding in the gym, but I was really concerned that this might affect my fertility. My wife and I have been trying to conceive for a few years and I have always had very good sperm labs in the 50-80 million range. So after my 7th shot end of February, i went to see doc and had some questions for him--like what was his plans for me when i stop the shots, and how will i recover,Will this affect my natural production, and do i need some AI's or some HCG etc. He said no it would help my natural production to increase, and said these doses would not shut me down, maybe slightly suppress me. Also it would help to increase my sperm count, and so it seemed he had no clue. So I asked to see a specialist (endo). So I went to endo in mid March, and he confirmed that I was starting to shut down. He said stop shots immediately lets wait 4-6 weeks and retest. He didnt even want me to take why protein supps. He did a physical exam and thought my testes were 40-50% smaller than normal, and they had begun to shrink from the shots. He couldnt believe the doc had scripted me 200m/week, conidering my levels were only normal low--362. Bottom line is I had labs done again at the local VA hospital in April--6 weeks after last shot: rcvd complete blood count, thyroid tested, and testosterone: they use quest. April 19th 1st VA labresults---
    HBa1c 5.5 range 4-6
    GLU 108 H 72-99
    chol 144 0-200
    HDL 39 35-65 little low
    LDL(Calc) 87 65-165
    TSH 1.819 .47-5
    T3 UPTK 29 22-35
    T4 6.67 4.5-12
    FT4 1.08 .7-1.48
    FSH .8L miu/ml 1.6-8.0
    LH <0.2 1.5-9.3 almost shut down completely after 8 total shots of 200mg/week of test cyp over a 3mo.
    TRIIODO 99ng/Dl 76-181
    Estadiol 35pg/ml 13-54
    Total Test 400ng/dl 250-1100
    FR Test: 41.4L pg/ml 46-224 below normal range
    TESTBIO 81.5L ng/dl 110-575 below normal
    SHBG: 44nmol/L 9-45 seems high suppose to restest in 60 days, waited 5 months til Sept. 21st- Results: Quest

    2nd VA lab by quest: chantilly, Quest diagnostics nichols institute
    HBA1c: 5.7 4-6
    GLU 104 72-99
    TSH 1.81 .47-5 same exact as earlier????
    LH 2.6 miu/ml 1.5-9.3 up from before where I was super low
    FSH (STL-MA) 4.0 1.6-8.0
    Total Test 267ng/dl 241-827
    Albumim (pb-sendout) 4.7 g/dl 3.6-5.1
    Test FREE (sendout) 50.1pg/ml 46-224 seems low?
    TEST BIOAVAILMA-PB-SO) 107.3L ng/dl 110-575 below normal???
    SHBG $21.12 39nmol/L 10 -50
    Didnt have estradiol tested...


    This was my last test, and a VA nurse practitioner says I am healthy, and wouldnt refer me to an VA ENDO. She stated my levels were in the normal range, and I pointed out that my free T was below normal?? Started using the VA since I am covered through them!!! Oh yeah I had a sperm lab done in July and the labs were 19 mi;lllion 20-100million is the range, so little low!!
    I am just wondering what supps I can take to get my Free test up until we can conceive or stop trying. Then at that point I will consider TRT, but til then I am wondering if I should take any HCG or use some AI'sl like aramidex or aromasin?? Any supps I should take like to boost my FREE T & total T?? I feel sluggish, but make it to the gym 3-4 times a week. My sleep patterns arent that good either --FYI, and I am concerned about these levels. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, and I suppose I should mention my libido is decent, never have had a problem getting it up, although very rare to get morning wood within the last year---accept while taking shots!! My weight has been between 265-275 the lasst few months. I know losing 25-35 pounds would be helpful, but just been tough to have enough energy to do the cardio long enough. I have always loved going to the gym and working out, my isssue is my diet and eating late at night. This is everything hopew this helps and Im hoping Matrix or someone can give me their thoughts about what they would do!!! Sorry so long, just wanted all the info. for accurate feedback! Thanks again, Charlie
    Last edited by Power33; 10-24-2011 at 12:23 PM. Reason: make more clear

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    I kinda agree with the Endo, jumping to Test wasn't ideal. If you can see the Endo again discuss the Clomid test. It with spur HPTA to normalize and should increase fertility, it did for me. It's very expensive out of pocket, try to get it scripted.
    Lift heavy and eat lots of dead animals! Yes, that's me in my avatar.
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    Double.post
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    over age of 40 your chance of starting up is slim. One needs to look at thetotal picture. Going on hrt increase quality of life. So to pull him off hrt at that point was not a good idea. Adding in hcg or better hmg would have been a better choice and reducing testosterone which causes elevated e2 which may also.mess with fertility. 200 mg per week is a better bit much to start out on with out.measuring proper parameters at certain.times while on hrt. If you are off hrt now.then a closed challenge with proper testing of lh and total t would tell if you primary vs secondary. if the Dr would done it right from the start then you would have known the what steps to.take in order to get the best desired out come. Quality life and fertility are what your goals are . Do.not.sacrifice either one when u do not have too. One needs to look into other reasons why sperm count may be low such as nutrient imbalances, tightie whities and other medical issues
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    over age of 40 your chance of starting up is slim. One needs to look at thetotal picture. Going on hrt increase quality of life. So to pull him off hrt at that point was not a good idea. Adding in hcg or better hmg would have been a better choice and reducing testosterone which causes elevated e2 which may also.mess with fertility. 200 mg per week is a better bit much to start out on with out.measuring proper parameters at certain.times while on hrt. If you are off hrt now.then a closed challenge with proper testing of lh and total t would tell if you primary vs secondary. if the Dr would done it right from the start then you would have known the what steps to.take in order to get the best desired out come. Quality life and fertility are what your goals are . Do.not.sacrifice either one when u do not have too. One needs to look into other reasons why sperm count may be low such as nutrient imbalances, tightie whities and other medical issues
    Thanks for ther reply Matrix--I appreciate it!
    Matrix did u see the labs I posted?? I stopped the injections way back in March, and then had labs done at the VA in April and again in September. My lab in April showed that my LH & FSH were almost non existent, however my total Test was 400. Any idea why my total T levels were 400 yet my LH/FSH were so low? Then my last lab last month shows that the LH & FSH has come up into the low normal range, but my total T was only 260? In both labs tho my FRee Test is below the normal range, so I am concerned with that! And yes my health-- quality of life and conceiving a child are my priorities, and here in Illinois my wife has a state job with great insurance that covers fertility and I can go see a doc under her plan. As a matter of fact the doc I was seeing end of last year is a family MD who prescribed me the 200mg Tcyp/ ew and he was even willing to let me self inject. Side note (both of his nurses were injecting there husbands) i found out by asking a few questions. But this dude had no clue cause when I asked him about clomid challenge, AI's or taking some HCG--he became very defensive. His plan was to taper me off, and he didnt think that the shots would shut me down, but he did refer me to an endo in Paducah,KY. I saw him only once and he did an exam--checked my testes out and confirmed my suspicions that i was shutting down. I suppose I could go back to him, but I mentioned TRT & HRT and had some medical articles from the AAES on how to diagnose hypogonadism and different articles on HRT and he said there is no such thing as TRT doctors and again he became defensive. He just said to stop everything and lets order some more labs and get retested. I asked him if it was ok to take some whey protein from GNC, and he said no supps at all and was very short with me. The good news is I found a local MD who works hand in hand with an alternative med guy (former phamacist), he does compounding and mixes up different things --mainly works with people to help them get their endocrine system in balance. My wife and I consulted with him and he has her taking some concoction of things to help her get her hormones in balance. He believes in trying to start with the adrenal & thyroid and get your system balanced. And the local medical doctor & this guy work together apparently. In other words the alternative bio-med guy knows more about HRT and the actual doctor refers to him alot. I went to the doctor and explained everything and showed him my labs and he referred me to the other guy. I havent ordered any of his compounded meds to help balance my glands yet cause there kind of expensive and insurance wont cover it. However, I can get scripted drugs through the doc and our insurance will cover it.

    Moving forward Matrix-- I just would like to get my natural levels up into a decent range 600-800, and try an figure out what caused the LOW T to begin with. For the last 7-10 years my diet has not been the best--lots of eating out and just overall not that good. As for working out-- the last 5 years I usually hit the gym for 2-4 months from December thru Feb/March and lose 20-30 pounds only to gain it back by the end of the year--so a little yo yoing going on. 11-12 years ago when i was in I was 29-30 I went thru a divorce and lost my mother to cancer I weighed 220ish. I basically noticed about 2-3 years ago I just stopped feeling as motivated and was losing my passion etc. My mind still goes 100 miles an hour, but my physical body aint in sync,and im only 41. At this point are there some supps I should order like natural test boosters to help with my test levels--especially my low free test? I have found several that seem good--Tongkat overload, syntheroid, testopro, ISA-TEST by isatori, and obviously HCGenerate/phytoserms 347/bridge at ****. Do u think I should order some of these to get my levels up--i mean will or can these suppress my natural production?? Or should I go to these local alternative/docs and let them review my last labs and see if they will do a clomid test like u mentioned, or both? Ive had others tell me that they would just try some aramidex for a few weeks or aromasin/nolva for a month and see if that helps--Bottom line what would u do if u were me?? I am working out 4-5 days a week for 60-75 minutes and I also have been sitting in the sauna for like 10 minutes to sweat out toxins--however i guess this can lower sperm count too. And Im focusing on trying to clean up my diet also--4-5 meals a day and around 2500-3000 calories. I did have a sperm lab done like 2 months ago (over 4-5 months since i took my last Tcyp shot), and my lab showed a count of 19 million and slightly low motility. First low count ive ever had--which was probably due to the 8 shots i had from Dec-March. Anyway, I know ive asked several questions, and I do appreciate your time & help very much. Lastly, i will consider TRT after we conceive or stop trying--its just time is of the essence for us to conceive cause my wife will be 41 next month, and her hormones and situation are worse than mine--were working with only one ovary and its notbeen producingworking properly every since her other tube & ovary was removed 2 years ago. Long story there, but we are still hopeful that a miracle will happen, even tho the odds are against us. The good news is --all of this has caused me to become more educated on hormones. Anyway, thankyou and look forward to hearing what protocol u would recommend. Im thinking about ordering a good test booster in the short term just to see if they might help little bit!!! I did go to the VA and some nurse practitioner said I was fine and my levels were ok. She began telling me all the risks of HRT and said my levels werent low enough. I told her I wasnt even wanting TRT, just trying to find out why my levels were lower than normal. She said lets retest in 6 months and I was healthy! What a joke, huh? This was last week. So ive just been trying to figure out who can help--and sadly to say these local docs dont have near the knowledge some of u guys have on these forums!!! Ive been researching and reading posts on 5 different sites--this one elitefitness, ****, tnation, and steroidworld. However, i stopped posting back in March while taking the shots, and was getting conflicting suggestions. Its obvious that you are very informed and have much experience in these areas. And i have read many threads where u have helped people with some challenging issues!
    Thanks again, charlie
    Last edited by Power33; 10-25-2011 at 11:57 PM. Reason: too long
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    My eyes got sore from reading last post.
    Lets try to condense this and make sense of it so we can get a more clinical picture to where things are.

    When was our last labs and what had you been taking at that time?
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    My eyes got sore from reading last post.
    Lets try to condense this and make sense of it so we can get a more clinical picture to where things are.

    When was our last labs and what had you been taking at that time?
    Sorry man--just trying to explain the details. The last 10 minutes I was actually trying to edit the post and condense it down! Anyway..the last 2 labs were in April and again in September. I have not been taking anything except a multi vitamin and a zinc supplement and a little whey protein 2-3 times a week. I stopped the injections of Tcyp at beginning of March, and have just been focusing on trying to clean up my diet!!! I did get down to 258 in July, but now I am at 270. Trying to hit the gym hard again, but energy kind of low! Here are the last lab results....

    September 21st: By quest diagnostics
    TSH 1.819 .47-5
    LH 2.6miu/ml 1.5-9.3
    FSH 4.0 1.6-8.0
    TOTAL TEST 267 241-827
    FREE TEST 50.1 pg/ml 46-224
    albumim 4.7g/dl 3.6-5.1
    BIO TEST 107.3Lng/dl 110-575
    SHBG 39nmol/L 10-50

    The lab before that was in April and the LH & FSH were almost non-existent, but total T was 400. Should I go back to endo with these recent labs or just go to the local alternative compounding meds guy who works with a local MD?? Also Im really wanting to try a test booster with Jong jack, fadogia, and Fenugreek/testofen--which is suppose to inhibit SHBG and free up the FreeT--what do u think, could these help in the short term?? What test booster do u think I should consider? Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power33 View Post
    Sorry man--just trying to explain the details. The last 10 minutes I was actually trying to edit the post and condense it down! Anyway..the last 2 labs were in April and again in September. I have not been taking anything except a multi vitamin and a zinc supplement and a little whey protein 2-3 times a week. I stopped the injections of Tcyp at beginning of March, and have just been focusing on trying to clean up my diet!!! I did get down to 258 in July, but now I am at 270. Trying to hit the gym hard again, but energy kind of low! Here are the last lab results....

    September 21st: By quest diagnostics
    TSH 1.819 .47-5
    LH 2.6miu/ml 1.5-9.3
    FSH 4.0 1.6-8.0
    TOTAL TEST 267 241-827
    FREE TEST 50.1 pg/ml 46-224
    albumim 4.7g/dl 3.6-5.1
    BIO TEST 107.3Lng/dl 110-575
    SHBG 39nmol/L 10-50

    The lab before that was in April and the LH & FSH were almost non-existent, but total T was 400. Should I go back to endo with these recent labs or just go to the local alternative compounding meds guy who works with a local MD?? Also Im really wanting to try a test booster with Jong jack, fadogia, and Fenugreek/testofen--which is suppose to inhibit SHBG and free up the FreeT--what do u think, could these help in the short term?? What test booster do u think I should consider? Thanks
    Without e2 sensitive these test are pretty much worthless. I will say higher body fat will increase aromatise. Also if you are not getting a good night sleep then this can also be a major factor in your T levels and other results. Where are you located as i have contacts all around the USA who deal with these things. CLomid would probably be the logical choice here as it can increase LH and also make one very fertile in little as 2 weeks guys getting wife pregnant. Only issue I would have if e2 was elevated. I be working on cleaning up diet lifestyles, and other factors before trying this.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Without e2 sensitive these test are pretty much worthless. I will say higher body fat will increase aromatise. Also if you are not getting a good night sleep then this can also be a major factor in your T levels and other results. Where are you located as i have contacts all around the USA who deal with these things. CLomid would probably be the logical choice here as it can increase LH and also make one very fertile in little as 2 weeks guys getting wife pregnant. Only issue I would have if e2 was elevated. I be working on cleaning up diet lifestyles, and other factors before trying this.
    I live in southern, ILL.--near Marion.---2 hours from St. Louis, 1 hour east of Cape Girardeao,MO, and hour and a half west of Evansville,IN.
    So knowing your test levels (FREE & total, LH and SHBG etc.) are useelss without estradiol??? I asked everytime they were doing my labs for them to check my estrogen E2 estradiol, my very first lab last Nov--the MD said its not necessary, but I do realize that it plays a key role. My April labs they did test my estradiol as noted in my first post----it was 35pg/ml 13-54 range. Is this ok or does this seem little high to you? And yes I am looking into getting better sleep and supps that could help with this. Any thoughts on taking a good natural test booster??? Which one or two products would u recommend?? I will ask doc about clomid during my next appointment or I might just order some, Also, do u think I would be better to try some clomid/nolva or just some aramidex/aramosin for a few weeks? Thanks
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    read this thread, full of wonderful info and the fact that you CAN start to produce again....

    Fertility
    iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4johnybravo View Post
    power33 if you private message me ill give u the name of the trt doctor i went to and thier website, i live in springfield il, and this doctor knows allot about hrt/trt becuase it ALL his clinic does specifically, infact he is an ex bodybuilder who opened his own hrt clinic. when i went, i got all the meds i need fast, except for my hgh cus i had an igf-1 of 140, and instead he gave me some crappy semoralin acetate which doesnt work. "if anyone can help me with my hgh prob, plz do" but anyways, this clinic is in bloomington, and his other clinic is in morton. you can feel confident this guy wikll stear you in the right direction, just seeing him lets you know hes got many juice cycles under his belt.
    When the word clinic comes up huge red flags would be raised.. even with that last statement would have me running the other way if I was interested in health..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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