30 years old, Low-T and not sure what to do...

[ap0352]

I haven't been feeling right for a year or so now. No energy, low sex drive and just feel like I'm in a funk...
Had my blood taken and got my results today.
Background,
I'm a 30 year old, 160lb. male who is moderately active and works out 3-4 days a week. The only supplements I take are protein powder and no-xplode.
I work shift work and have terrible sleeping habits which may have something to do with the low t readings. My dad was also diagnosed with low t when he was in his early 40's...
Anyway, the flags on my results were:

BUN/Creatinine Ratio 20
Estradiol 5.8
Testosterone, Serum 137

Would anyone care to explain these numbers to me and what I should do next? What type of doctor do I need to see?
I'd appreciate any help.

 

[The Matrix]

I haven't been feeling right for a year or so now. No energy, low sex drive and just feel like I'm in a funk...
Had my blood taken and got my results today.
Background,
I'm a 30 year old, 160lb. male who is moderately active and works out 3-4 days a week. The only supplements I take are protein powder and no-xplode.
I work shift work and have terrible sleeping habits which may have something to do with the low t readings. My dad was also diagnosed with low t when he was in his early 40's...
Anyway, the flags on my results were:

BUN/Creatinine Ratio 20
Estradiol 5.8
Testosterone, Serum 137

Would anyone care to explain these numbers to me and what I should do next? What type of doctor do I need to see?
I'd appreciate any help.

Find out why your levels are low if you need a good practioner in your are PM me.

 

[ap0352]

I need to make a few more posts before I can PM but will do..

 

[ap0352]

Not sure why levels are low. I've been nothing but healthly my entire life. Spent 6 years in the Marine Corps and always excerise/workout.
Until recently, felt fine and now like crap. Was thinking maybe it was just my schedule, marriage and 2 young kids getting to me..

 

[The Matrix]

There are alot of other factors coming into play which have been over looked..

 

[mattrag]

There are alot of other factors coming into play which have been over looked..

Sorry to butt in but could you please expand on this?

 

[The Matrix]

Sorry to butt in but could you please expand on this?

EXcessive estrogens
excessive body fat
Prediabetic states
medications
environmental xenoestrogens
in abilty to metabolize estrogens due to altered liver pathways
its not your balls, but your brains
Nutritional deficiency or imbalances
overtraining under eating
Malabsorption of nutrients
excessive consumption of soy milk products as a baby.
Many marines I have dealt with had some head injury from shrapnel or road side bombs, ect.
PTSD is very common with low testosterone.
Stress in general from mental, emotional, biological, physical, or environmental factors

 

[Jarhead0724]

That's EXACTLY what happened to me brother. I'm currently active duty USMC & had same symptoms & finally got to an Endo. She ran some blood tests a couple times, low t, high e. After talking to her about med history & USMC "activities", (I've been hit with 2 IEDS), took pituitary MRI & found that it was jacked up & correlated the two. I'm on HRT now for about 8 weeks & let me tell you what....I feel like I'm 20 again (currently 31)!!!

 

[ap0352]

Thanks for the info Jarhead! Got some awesome info from The Matrix that answered several questions I had. He pointed out that I may have been exposed to a lot of "crap" while in Fallujah i.e. 1 IED attack and several RPG and mortar attacks..
I scheduled an apt. to see an endo so hopefully they'll run some more tests and let me know what the hell is going on..

 

[mattrag]

Man... I was raised on natto (fermented soy), tofu, and miso (fermented soy and rice paste).....
I actually only have one working testy too.
Sad my life. This is no joke.

 

[The Matrix]

Man... I was raised on natto (fermented soy), tofu, and miso (fermented soy and rice paste).....
I actually only have one working testy too.
Sad my life. This is no joke.

Soy in general can castrate you. Causes thyroid and adrenal issues later on in life. I had several clients messed up on soy. It took 6 months to get them back to normal.

 

[getalpha]

How did you work out that you only had one testicle working?

I've got two, but one was undescended (corrected as baby) but it's like the size of a large grape, the other one is way bigger.

Always wondered if it even worked and I think it's half the reason for my low T.

 

[pmgamer18]

Good job I was just going to post about this that a head injury can do this and it is not right away over time it will get worse. I was in an Auto Accident 30 yrs ago about a yr. later started to feel fatigue and in time I could not push my self to get out of bed in the morning and make it to work.

The dam Dr.'s I seen could only find my Iron levels were low and when going on Iron pills did not make me better the told me I was suffering from Major Depression. Because I was off work on Sick Leave I had to go along with this crap and was on AD meds for 5 yrs. Never feeling better until a Dr. found me to have low Testosterone levels.

I went on TRT and was back to work in 30 days but still he had this wrong saying I am Primary it took me 23 yrs. on TRT not feeling 100 % to figure out I am Secondary with a damaged Pituitary from the head injury.

It was after this they started to treat all my low normal level hormones like Testosterone, Cortisol, Thyroid, Growth Hormone and Aldosterone. It was after this I felt better but it was to late for my Heart I needed Heart Bypass Surgey and it was due to my Growth Hormones levels being so low for so many yrs. I had two blockages 99% they did not know how I was living let alone walking around. I never had high Chol. levels in my life it was the low Growth Hormone.

What I have is called Hypopituitary and the place I got most of my help from was at Chris's forum and it's now closed but one can still read the stickys and old posts at this link it's the Hypopituitary forum.
http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/

That's EXACTLY what happened to me brother. I'm currently active duty USMC & had same symptoms & finally got to an Endo. She ran some blood tests a couple times, low t, high e. After talking to her about med history & USMC "activities", (I've been hit with 2 IEDS), took pituitary MRI & found that it was jacked up & correlated the two. I'm on HRT now for about 8 weeks & let me tell you what....I feel like I'm 20 again (currently 31)!!!

 

[ap0352]

I ended up seeing my general pract. instead of the endo.
He ordered more bloodwork for me to test my thyroid. It came back fine but my test level again came back low @ 202. He now recommends that I go to an endo for treatment. I'm a little aggrivated that he won't contiune to find out whats going on with me especially since he told me that he has treated several people with low-t. It just sucks not knowing what the hell is going on with me and why I feel like crap all the time...
Now to find an endo in the new orleans area.. Anyone know one?

 

[mattrag]

How did you work out that you only had one testicle working?

I've got two, but one was undescended (corrected as baby) but it's like the size of a large grape, the other one is way bigger.

Always wondered if it even worked and I think it's half the reason for my low T.

Sorry I didnt see this. Size wise... it never grew past the size it was when I was born.. ? Pretty tiny... (TMI prolly).

Anyway, my body had enough test to turn me into a fully developed male. I can gain muscle, but it takes a lot of work and food. Like it should with most. I think my test levels are lower though as my Libido and aggression are ALWAYS low. I think my my balance of hormones is good though. I do very well on test boosters (well most that stimulate LH), but I do REALLY bad on mid-high doses of any AI or estrogen blocker. I think my estrogen level is lower to match my lower test levels. Like my total test maybe low, but my free test is pretty good.

I donno for sure, I should get checked. Maybe later when I move back to America.

 

[The Matrix]

Sorry I didnt see this. Size wise... it never grew past the size it was when I was born.. ? Pretty tiny... (TMI prolly).

Anyway, my body had enough test to turn me into a fully developed male. I can gain muscle, but it takes a lot of work and food. Like it should with most. I think my test levels are lower though as my Libido and aggression are ALWAYS low. I think my my balance of hormones is good though. I do very well on test boosters (well most that stimulate LH), but I do REALLY bad on mid-high doses of any AI or estrogen blocker. I think my estrogen level is lower to match my lower test levels. Like my total test maybe low, but my free test is pretty good.

I donno for sure, I should get checked. Maybe later when I move back to America.

In these cases one might look into low dosages of clomid to help to make up for the lack of the other testicular response. We tried clomid on a guy who had testicular cancer, but because he went through radiation therapy it destroyed the bodies chance for responding to HCG or clomid. Since you have no exposure then using clomid to increase LH may be a possible solution. When in doubt think logically. Clomid can be obtained from online pharmacies in different country for a reasonable price.

 

[mattrag]

In these cases one might look into low dosages of clomid to help to make up for the lack of the other testicular response. We tried clomid on a guy who had testicular cancer, but because he went through radiation therapy it destroyed the bodies chance for responding to HCG or clomid. Since you have no exposure then using clomid to increase LH may be a possible solution. When in doubt think logically. Clomid can be obtained from online pharmacies in different country for a reasonable price.

Perhaps Ill give this a try. Any comparison to Torem for this purpose? I used some research chem torem and it really filled up the lone warrior down stairs.

 

[The Matrix]

Perhaps Ill give this a try. Any comparison to Torem for this purpose? I used some research chem torem and it really filled up the lone warrior down stairs.

Well to keep the Samuri's sword sharp and ridget it may be a viable solution. I do not know the dosage on torem long term, but I know theraprutically 12.5 mgs EOD works great for majority of males with low testosterone with out causing down regulation

 

[ap0352]

I saw the endo yesterday...
She order more bloodwork and wants me to have a MRI of my pit. so I scheduled and appt. next week. I guess we'll go from there....

 

[Outside Backer]

Your story sounds the same with mine, I underwent a battery of tests before I deployed. I had bloodwork for 3 yrs showing steadily declining T levels When i was in Korea they were like 420 at age 29 then 365 330 etc. This was first thing in the morning, by noon they were 180. To boot my thyroid levels were right at border of hypo. Which prob helped that after 12pm i was a zombie, dog tired and couldnt think straight. 10pm at night id get this sudden rush of energy and always slept like hell. finally after 4 months of ENDO care and everything tested he gave me 2 options before I deployed.

Synthroid or T-gel. he wanted to see if a low dose synthroid would help then after deployment check my Tlevels again,

Its been 3 months and at .25mcg a day I feel like a changed man energy wise. My strength is still declining but not as bad as it was. In 2009 I recall benching 350 for sets of 5, now I struggle with 315 for 1. I can get past that.

Im hoping to return in Jan and see some elevation of T levels but i dunno

anywho good luck man keep us posted

 

[mattrag]

This is such a problem now in the US. Man I'm hitting my 27th bday on the 7th and I bet my t levels are that of a 60 yr old... Being in japan and having been raised on soy products... I REALLY need to get checked out here in japan..

 

[francesco]

is soy lechitin something bad too?

 

[pmgamer18]

No it's good I am on it for Statin Drug damage to my muscles my Heart Dr. told me to take it with some CoQ10.

 

[Gutterpump]

You can also check for A) Vericocele B) pituitary adenoma or microadenoma

 

[ap0352]

MRI came back normal so she prescribed me 50mg of Clomiphene Citrate a day. She wants me to do this for 3 months and have my levels tested halfway through and at the end. If they are not within range at the end of 3 months, she said she will put me on TRT.
We'll see how this works..
Thoughts?

 

[The Matrix]

MRI came back normal so she prescribed me 50mg of Clomiphene Citrate a day. She wants me to do this for 3 months and have my levels tested halfway through and at the end. If they are not within range at the end of 3 months, she said she will put me on TRT.
We'll see how this works..
Thoughts?

You are going to fail miserable and cause down regulation to your LH with that much clomid. When dealing with medical dr's I find this is there biggest mistake. Dr I consulted with had a patient on 25 mgs ED, he was good till about 1.5 months in then it dropped off. The dr had no clue was it was not working and wanted to commence HRT. I suggest stop things for a few weeks and restart back at 12.5 mgs m,w,f. Then when I explained the down regulation of LH and the body being desensitize to its own LH then it made sense. After 3 month the guy was at 700 and Dr was amazed he was holding, I suggested dr to continue as is and recheck in another 3 months, 6 months later he was still in lower 800's. Mine you on 25 mgs clomid a day he was at 600 TT at 4 weeks in 8 weeks in he was down to low 300's. Mean We are still working on other areas to bring him back to balance with the chance of even getting off clomid in the near future..

 

[ap0352]

So would you suggest that I follow that dosage? Just from that short conversation we had over the phone, I value your opinion much more than that of my endo's.
Thanks for the info Matrix!

 

[The Matrix]

So would you suggest that I follow that dosage? Just from that short conversation we had over the phone, I value your opinion much more than that of my endo's.
Thanks for the info Matrix!

Here is what I suggest. I suggest you contact your Dr tell them what I suggested and the reason why. You can also mentioned I noted this about 3-4 years ago not knowing how true it was on meso. Pmgamer remembered me posting about it years ago. He would even vouche for me because his word is honorable. You can also note I have been using this under dr supervision for several months with the results I have been getting. Before going on clomid you also need to have other factors taken care of which can affect LH signaling at the cellular level. I have not met one medical professional who does in detail. Actually if you follow the current trends on the board people are starting notice how important these factors are. When you try to build a mansion and you have a crappy foundation when it is finish, what will happen? It will crumble to the ground. Same thing happens to majority guys on clomid when they come off because they do not have a foundation to come off on to. When consulting with Dr's guys who appear secondary on HRT who want to get off HRT, there is a 4 month process which they undergo to make sure all lights are green for a restart. Recommending a multivitamin is wonderful, but considering 90% out there are full of talc, worthless form of nutrients resulting in potential other health risk (another thread in itself). Usually when I am talking to a new Dr for the first time, they usually have the internet running in the background looking up everything I am saying. I am used to this so if people have open minded dr I have no problem dealing with them professional. If you run into me DR you patient well them you might as well better luck getting struck by lighting. It does not matter how wonderful everything sounds, you MUST NEVER SELF TREAT, even if the information is 100% sound, accurate and validated in a clinical setting.

 

[ap0352]

Been on clomid for about 2 months now. I haven't taken the prescribed dosage of 25mg twice daily. I've more of less taken about 25mg every 3rd day. I do feel much better but still don't feel like I'm where I should be.
Saw my endo the other day. New blood results are:
Test Total 326
Test Free 8.4L * 2 different results here with 2 different ranges so I'm not sure how to read it..
Test Free 66.6 *
Test Bioavail 131.2
Total Estrogens 51
Sex Hormone Binding GI 18

Compare that to my inital results of:
Total T 284
Total Free 5.2L
Total Estrogens 55
Albumin 4.3

Improvement yes but nothing spectacular. She wants me to continue clomid at 25mg's twice a day for another 3 months with more blood work in between. I'm wondering if I should actually increase the dosage from what I'm currently taking and go with just 25mg a day. Scared to take 50 a day.

Opinions?

 

[The Matrix]

Been on clomid for about 2 months now. I haven't taken the prescribed dosage of 25mg twice daily. I've more of less taken about 25mg every 3rd day. I do feel much better but still don't feel like I'm where I should be.
Saw my endo the other day. New blood results are:
Test Total 326
Test Free 8.4L * 2 different results here with 2 different ranges so I'm not sure how to read it..
Test Free 66.6 *
Test Bioavail 131.2
Total Estrogens 51
Sex Hormone Binding GI 18

Compare that to my inital results of:
Total T 284
Total Free 5.2L
Total Estrogens 55
Albumin 4.3

Improvement yes but nothing spectacular. She wants me to continue clomid at 25mg's twice a day for another 3 months with more blood work in between. I'm wondering if I should actually increase the dosage from what I'm currently taking and go with just 25mg a day. Scared to take 50 a day.

Opinions?

receptors are saturated more then what you are now would be counter productive. I would even cut the dosage back to 12.5 every other day then work on factors to support testosterone production such as getting the proper nutrients and examining thyroid and adrenal issue more indept. Many time working with people correcting a few things which work synergistically together will kick the body back into gear on its own. After 2 months if all ducks are not in a row T not rising one moves on to HRT till further exploration can be done. I will even suggest a dr if the symptoms are obvious to use HRT to make the person feel better in order for further investigation to be done. No one should suffer for months on end when no need to. 25 mgs 2 times a day for 2 months is ludicrous leading to more damage then good especially issues with sight which has occured in many many people from these recommendations of 50 mgs per day for 2 month periods

 

[ap0352]

Little bit more than 3 months now and I'm more confused than ever...
After talking with my endo again, i started on 1/20 taking the actual prescribed dosage of 50 mgs a day, (I know Matrix, completely against what you told me)...sorry. She somehow convinced me that I needed that dosage.
I still felt about the same until the beginning of Feb. I started feeling similar to what I did before treatment. Very lathargic and not much drive...
Kept the dosage the same and ended up getting what I would consider the "vision" side-effect around the weekend of the 18th. I wouldn't say my vision was blurred but something was not right. I quit the treatment immediately after and side effects went away by the third day...
Haven't had blood work since the last report so I may call my endo and explain whats going on...
Trying to figure out if I should restart the clomid at the lower dosage Matrix recommended....

 

[The Matrix]

Little bit more than 3 months now and I'm more confused than ever...
After talking with my endo again, i started on 1/20 taking the actual prescribed dosage of 50 mgs a day, (I know Matrix, completely against what you told me)...sorry. She somehow convinced me that I needed that dosage.
I still felt about the same until the beginning of Feb. I started feeling similar to what I did before treatment. Very lathargic and not much drive...
Kept the dosage the same and ended up getting what I would consider the "vision" side-effect around the weekend of the 18th. I wouldn't say my vision was blurred but something was not right. I quit the treatment immediately after and side effects went away by the third day...
Haven't had blood work since the last report so I may call my endo and explain whats going on...
Trying to figure out if I should restart the clomid at the lower dosage Matrix recommended....

All I am trying to do is educate you to make the right decision to discuss with your Dr. I do this on a daily basis with Dr's all the time. I am working with a lot of Dr's now and collaborating together has had profound impact. Sitting in on peoples appointment with Dr first time is intimidating or may be awkward to the Dr, but by the end of the appointment we are joking and sharing ideas. I actually have relationships now with Dr's in one of americas oldest healing centers where people come from around the world to be treating.

 

[ap0352]

Six months or so into it now and my latest total T came back 557. Endo said those results are awesome. I'd say much better but not "awesome".
Now she wants me to get off the clomid and see if my body will maintain that level. Personally, I'd like my totals in the 650-750 range but I don't know if I'll ever see that even if I stay on clomid...
Thoughts?

 

[Mrmanguy84]

Sorry I don't have any answers for you, but I am considering clomid myself. I know you're not all the way better, but how do you feel compared to before treatment? Especially interested in depression and libido related symptoms. Thanks.

Oh, I almost forgot. If the cause of your low T is still unclear, you might want to check out if you have sleep apnea or a varicocele. According to studies I've read correcting these conditions can improve T significantly.

Most doctors will say you have to be middle-aged and fat to have apnea but that is not true. I am 5'9" and 175 and I have apnea. That's only 7 lbs overweight based on bmi. And I'm 27.

Unfortunately treating my apnea hasn't resolved my symptoms, but your mileage may vary. At least I'm not falling asleep everywhere uncontrollably anymore.

 

[The Matrix]

Sorry I don't have any answers for you, but I am considering clomid myself. I know you're not all the way better, but how do you feel compared to before treatment? Especially interested in depression and libido related symptoms. Thanks.

Oh, I almost forgot. If the cause of your low T is still unclear, you might want to check out if you have sleep apnea or a varicocele. According to studies I've read correcting these conditions can improve T significantly.

Most doctors will say you have to be middle-aged and fat to have apnea but that is not true. I am 5'9" and 175 and I have apnea. That's only 7 lbs overweight based on bmi. And I'm 27.

Unfortunately treating my apnea hasn't resolved my symptoms, but your mileage may vary. At least I'm not falling asleep everywhere uncontrollably anymore.

Before clomid you need take care off all the other issues which are out side of hormone other wise you are significantly decreasing your chances of success. I see it all the time from guys who have gone to the top HRT specialist when all they look at is the endocrine system never looking at the immune, neurological, lifestyle, psychological and now a huge component environmental factors. Once the other issues are identifed and addressed where they failed before they finally succeeded. Address the whole person not just 20-25% of the equation like typical medical professionals do. You want to get a huge return on your investment, but instead you are getting cheated..

 

[The Matrix]

Six months or so into it now and my latest total T came back 557. Endo said those results are awesome. I'd say much better but not "awesome".
Now she wants me to get off the clomid and see if my body will maintain that level. Personally, I'd like my totals in the 650-750 range but I don't know if I'll ever see that even if I stay on clomid...
Thoughts?

Hate to burst your bubble but average T are between 400-700 levels provided all the other hormones, thyroid, gh issues are all in check.
In your case I think its something out side hormones personally which is not being addressed. You are chasing the number scale. I have had Dr's reduce testosterone levels by some times a quarter of their dosages when other issues are properly addresss. They feel better less drugs less variables, and symptoms which TRT did not address started to clear up. Its not about more is better, but rather optimizing what you have from addressing the person as a whole and not just one system.

 

[ap0352]

Sorry I don't have any answers for you, but I am considering clomid myself. I know you're not all the way better, but how do you feel compared to before treatment? Especially interested in depression and libido related symptoms. Thanks.

Oh, I almost forgot. If the cause of your low T is still unclear, you might want to check out if you have sleep apnea or a varicocele. According to studies I've read correcting these conditions can improve T significantly.

Most doctors will say you have to be middle-aged and fat to have apnea but that is not true. I am 5'9" and 175 and I have apnea. That's only 7 lbs overweight based on bmi. And I'm 27.

Unfortunately treating my apnea hasn't resolved my symptoms, but your mileage may vary. At least I'm not falling asleep everywhere uncontrollably anymore.

I actually do feel much better! I guess I'll get off the clomid and see what happens..

 

[Mrmanguy84]

Any updates?

 

[ap0352]

Still taking the clomid. Wanted to wait until I run out. Been taking about 25mg every 4th day. Kind of scared to get off..
I'll update once I do..

 

[Mrmanguy84]

How are you feeling in the libido department? Thanks for the update.

 

[The Matrix]

How are you feeling in the libido department? Thanks for the update.

I have been suggesting Dr that little bit of adex may be needed along with the clomid to help keep e2 in check which symptoms would be the determining factor along as using Labs as a diagnostic tool

 

[jogo]

I too am going through a Clomid restart. I was on 25mg day but felt crappy. I'm now on 12.5mg day, still feel a little tired but much better. I'm thinking of going to the 25mg every four day schedule.

Are you still on 25mg E4D? Also, do you take it in the morning when you wake or at bedtime?

Hope your doing well.

Still taking the clomid. Wanted to wait until I run out. Been taking about 25mg every 4th day. Kind of scared to get off..
I'll update once I do..

 

[ap0352]

I don't really have a set schedule. I usually just take it as soon as I remember about it that day..