new to HCG, a few questions

[hoglaw]

I realize most of these have probably been answered, and I've done my fair share of research. Anyway, here goes.

I told my primary care doc about a year ago that I just felt like crap constantly, no sex drive, etc. I was working out, but couldn't seem to get anywhere. He ran labs, and total T came back at like 180, he said check again in a month or two. We checked again, and I was down to 100. He started me on androgel and I liked it. 2 packs a day of 5mg each. Everything was good, total T came up to high normal, I felt good.

After lots of reading, I told him I wanted a referral to an endo. The endo I saw was great, though he's terrible at communicating. He prescribed HCG. I think his idea was to have it completely supplant exogenous T, but like I said, he's a bad communicator. He did look at my labs from pre-trt, post-trt, and from when I took a two month break from trt at the advice of my urologist (who doesn't know **** about this stuff).

My insurance didn't cover Novarel. It costs a fortune. I asked him if I could switch to T-cyp after my insurance sent me a letter saying they no longer cover androgel. He said sure, and wrote me for 2ml (200mg) every other week.

I've been taking 1ml every friday on my own. I figure he won't know the difference, and no reason not to.

I recently found out that I can take pregnyl. My insurance doesn't cover it, but it's very affordable (60 bucks for 10000 units at Walmart). I filled it today. My script is for 1000 units, three times a week.

So here's my home doctor rationale. I read somewhere that HCG needs a "jump start" after you've been on TRT for a year. I've also read that 3000 units a week is overkill. I took 2000 units today, and will continue with 500 units a day for the other two days this week, and three days of each week hereafter. I know, I know, I'm not a doctor and I should listen to mine. I get that, but 1000 units three times a week is like 60 bucks every three weeks. If I can stretch that to 6.66 weeks (500 units, 3x/week), plus the Tcyp, I'm just about at the average cost of androgel of 35 bucks a month. I don't plan on stopping the T-cyp. As much as I'd like to, it's only 10 bucks or so on my insurance, and it's not that inconvenient except for the fact that I hate the shots (even though I look forward to them for some reason). I'm hoping that 100mg of Tcyp a week plus 500 units of HCG 3x/week will put me in a good range. I'll have blood work done at my next appointment with the endo to check E levels, and I"m a little conflicted about telling him whether I followed his plan or not. The way I'm doing it, the timing of refills will work out about the same. I also get the impression that he hasn't really done much HCG work with patients, though he was very receptive to it. Anyway, my quesions are as follow:

1. Any comments on the above are welcome
2. The pregnyl box says for IM injections only, but I read that SubQ works just as well. I don't really care one way or the other except that I hate sticking a needle into my quad more often than I have to. Can I bump up to a 28 guage and do these subQ?
3. Pregynl box says store at controlled room temp, but the directions say it keeps for 60 days refrigerated after reconstitution. Which should I do? I'm guessing reconsitute into the main pregnyl vial (the one that looks like it has crack rocks in it) and refrigerate it, and allow each syringe drawn from it to warm to room temp before injecting?

Any other words of wisdom? There's so much conflicting information out there, and while my brain tells me to stick with my doctor, my gut tells me that while he's very intelligent and knowledgable, he probably isn't well versed in HCG for secondary hypogonadism.

 

[hoglaw]

Also, I've read conflicting information on how often the HCG injections are supposed to be done and I don't know what to trust. I like the idea of being on no more than 1500units per week (for no other reason than cost), but obviously I want to do it in the most efficient manner possible.

 

[The Matrix]

I realize most of these have probably been answered, and I've done my fair share of research. Anyway, here goes.

I told my primary care doc about a year ago that I just felt like crap constantly, no sex drive, etc. I was working out, but couldn't seem to get anywhere. He ran labs, and total T came back at like 180, he said check again in a month or two. We checked again, and I was down to 100. He started me on androgel and I liked it. 2 packs a day of 5mg each. Everything was good, total T came up to high normal, I felt good.

After lots of reading, I told him I wanted a referral to an endo. The endo I saw was great, though he's terrible at communicating. He prescribed HCG. I think his idea was to have it completely supplant exogenous T, but like I said, he's a bad communicator. He did look at my labs from pre-trt, post-trt, and from when I took a two month break from trt at the advice of my urologist (who doesn't know **** about this stuff).

My insurance didn't cover Novarel. It costs a fortune. I asked him if I could switch to T-cyp after my insurance sent me a letter saying they no longer cover androgel. He said sure, and wrote me for 2ml (200mg) every other week.

I've been taking 1ml every friday on my own. I figure he won't know the difference, and no reason not to.

I recently found out that I can take pregnyl. My insurance doesn't cover it, but it's very affordable (60 bucks for 10000 units at Walmart). I filled it today. My script is for 1000 units, three times a week.

So here's my home doctor rationale. I read somewhere that HCG needs a "jump start" after you've been on TRT for a year. I've also read that 3000 units a week is overkill. I took 2000 units today, and will continue with 500 units a day for the other two days this week, and three days of each week hereafter. I know, I know, I'm not a doctor and I should listen to mine. I get that, but 1000 units three times a week is like 60 bucks every three weeks. If I can stretch that to 6.66 weeks (500 units, 3x/week), plus the Tcyp, I'm just about at the average cost of androgel of 35 bucks a month. I don't plan on stopping the T-cyp. As much as I'd like to, it's only 10 bucks or so on my insurance, and it's not that inconvenient except for the fact that I hate the shots (even though I look forward to them for some reason). I'm hoping that 100mg of Tcyp a week plus 500 units of HCG 3x/week will put me in a good range. I'll have blood work done at my next appointment with the endo to check E levels, and I"m a little conflicted about telling him whether I followed his plan or not. The way I'm doing it, the timing of refills will work out about the same. I also get the impression that he hasn't really done much HCG work with patients, though he was very receptive to it. Anyway, my quesions are as follow:

1. Any comments on the above are welcome
2. The pregnyl box says for IM injections only, but I read that SubQ works just as well. I don't really care one way or the other except that I hate sticking a needle into my quad more often than I have to. Can I bump up to a 28 guage and do these subQ?
3. Pregynl box says store at controlled room temp, but the directions say it keeps for 60 days refrigerated after reconstitution. Which should I do? I'm guessing reconsitute into the main pregnyl vial (the one that looks like it has crack rocks in it) and refrigerate it, and allow each syringe drawn from it to warm to room temp before injecting?

Any other words of wisdom? There's so much conflicting information out there, and while my brain tells me to stick with my doctor, my gut tells me that while he's very intelligent and knowledgable, he probably isn't well versed in HCG for secondary hypogonadism.

HRT dosage is 1/2 ml (broken in m,th 50 mgs total T) for 6 weeks with out AI or hcg
If e2 looks good then ad in taken 200 ius day sub Q before the injection.
Blood is taken the morning of the injection but before the shot.
200 mgs is way too high for HRT. 100 mgs is more likely a safer place to start then add go from their.
HCG is good for about 30 days in refrigerator.
Get with a proper Dr that knows HRT because this guy is totally clueless..

 

[jdub1980]

I am new to the HCG also and would like to know if anyone has a good protocol to follow for HCG while on TRT?

 

[The Matrix]

I am new to the HCG also and would like to know if anyone has a good protocol to follow for HCG while on TRT?

Everyones body is different. There have been dr's patients to where their e2 was 25. When given 250 ius HCG day day before the shot 2 times a week e2 tripled. In this instance the benefit to risk ratio was not worth it. So not HCG was used and the person is completely fine out AI or HCG in his protocol.

 

[hoglaw]

perhaps I wasn't clear. Previous dosing was 10g of androgel (100mg per day, 10mg per day absorbed) per day. After conversation with doc about HCG, he wrote a script for 1000iu 3x/week which from everything I read, was way high. After I told him I couldn't do HCG because of cost, and I found out androgel was no longer covered, he switched me to straight t-cyp, 200mg EVERY 2 WEEKS. On my own, I decided to do 100 mg every week.

Now I've acquired HCG from the previous script because I found it cheaper at Walmart, and switched to pregnyl rather than novarel. My labs on straight T were apparently good because he saw them all - before TRT, during TRT with 10g androgel/day, and after a month long break from TRT. He does not know that I'm now in possession of and taking HCG because I haven't been able to see him yet. Follow up appointment is in early October. He wrote the script for T-cyp under the assumption that I would not be taking HCG (at least that's what I assumed he assumed). I want to take HCG because I want to have kids, and he told me I was secondary and HCG would work. I'd like to do it without injecting T at all if that would put me at high normal without having to take so much HCG that I desensitize.

Hope that clears that up. I've not been taking 200mg of T a week and the doc didn't tell me to.

 

[DragonRider]

perhaps I wasn't clear. Previous dosing was 10g of androgel (100mg per day, 10mg per day absorbed) per day. After conversation with doc about HCG, he wrote a script for 1000iu 3x/week which from everything I read, was way high. After I told him I couldn't do HCG because of cost, and I found out androgel was no longer covered, he switched me to straight t-cyp, 200mg EVERY 2 WEEKS. On my own, I decided to do 100 mg every week.

Now I've acquired HCG from the previous script because I found it cheaper at Walmart, and switched to pregnyl rather than novarel. My labs on straight T were apparently good because he saw them all - before TRT, during TRT with 10g androgel/day, and after a month long break from TRT. He does not know that I'm now in possession of and taking HCG because I haven't been able to see him yet. Follow up appointment is in early October. He wrote the script for T-cyp under the assumption that I would not be taking HCG (at least that's what I assumed he assumed). I want to take HCG because I want to have kids, and he told me I was secondary and HCG would work. I'd like to do it without injecting T at all if that would put me at high normal without having to take so much HCG that I desensitize.

Hope that clears that up. I've not been taking 200mg of T a week and the doc didn't tell me to.

He understood you. He is saying 50mg twice a week (like on Monday and Thursday) is superior to one injection of 100mg per week. This protocol is very good at preventing the need for an AI because it keeps conversion to E2 low.
Why do you feel the need for HCG? If you are doing well on your TRT protocol, why introduce another variable. HCG use often necessitates the need for an AI. Now you are using 3 meds a week instaed of one.

 

[The Matrix]

He understood you. He is saying 50mg twice a week (like on Monday and Thursday) is superior to one injection of 100mg per week. This protocol is very good at preventing the need for an AI because it keeps conversion to E2 low.
Why do you feel the need for HCG? If you are doing well on your TRT protocol, why introduce another variable. HCG use often necessitates the need for an AI. Now you are using 3 meds a week instaed of one.

Very well said my friend

 

[hoglaw]

I feel the need for HCG because according to my endo, I am secondary, not primary. I was doing well on TRT until androgel was no longer available. I was only on T-cyp for 2 weeks without HCG. I also do not want to risk sterility and making myself primary if I'm not already.

My endo's original intent may have been for me to JUST take HCG, but I don't know because he's not a good communicator and I don't have another appointment until October. His script was for 1000iu, 3x/wk. He wrote the T-cyp script after I told him the Novarel was too expensive and my insurance would not cover it. Once I found a cheaper alternative, I decided I wanted to use it. Now I don't know if I should use one, both, or how much of either because he hasn't responded to my quesiton yet.

 

[The Matrix]

I would try hcg first at 250 ius every day for 3 weeks then retest. If no increases then increase to 350 and retest again. If no increase then your nuts are not responding. Before hcg I would try clomid to see if you are truly secondary. Also you need to look into reason why you are low on T in the first place instead of jumping to HRT unless you are over 35 then I say go right to it and not waste time

 

[hoglaw]

Just wanted to bump/update this thread. The day I made my last post, I got a reply email from my endo. I asked him if I was supposed to be taking HCG only, or in conjunction with the T-cyp. He told me HCG only, 1000 iu, 3x per week.

I followed his instructions and did two weeks at 1000iu 3x per week. Two weeks after discontinuing the T-cyp, I felt horrible. I slept about twelve hours for three days in a row. He is now out of the country doing third world volunteer work for a couple of weeks. Great for him, not so good for me. I was depressed, couldn't think straight, had zero sex drive, and my girl friend told me she didn't even know who I was anymore. In any event, I took 100mg of T-cyp on Friday and there was an immediate improvement.

I don't know if I didn't stick with the HCG long enough or what, but I couldn't funciton like that. While I'm sure it boosted my natural T production above basleline (which for me was between 100 and 200 total T on three separate morning labs prior to beginning HRT), I just couldn't handle taking it alone. I'm going to continue with 100mg T-cyp per week, and 500 iu HCG 3x/week until my next labs in about two weeks and see how they turn out.

 

[The Matrix]

Just wanted to bump/update this thread. The day I made my last post, I got a reply email from my endo. I asked him if I was supposed to be taking HCG only, or in conjunction with the T-cyp. He told me HCG only, 1000 iu, 3x per week.

I followed his instructions and did two weeks at 1000iu 3x per week. Two weeks after discontinuing the T-cyp, I felt horrible. I slept about twelve hours for three days in a row. He is now out of the country doing third world volunteer work for a couple of weeks. Great for him, not so good for me. I was depressed, couldn't think straight, had zero sex drive, and my girl friend told me she didn't even know who I was anymore. In any event, I took 100mg of T-cyp on Friday and there was an immediate improvement.

I don't know if I didn't stick with the HCG long enough or what, but I couldn't funciton like that. While I'm sure it boosted my natural T production above basleline (which for me was between 100 and 200 total T on three separate morning labs prior to beginning HRT), I just couldn't handle taking it alone. I'm going to continue with 100mg T-cyp per week, and 500 iu HCG 3x/week until my next labs in about two weeks and see how they turn out.

I helped dr's help to get there patients restarted, and had a very high success rate. It will depend on certain variables. Your Dr is uneducated on the lastest information when it comes to HRT. He needs to get out of the stone age and get with up with speed with cutting edge information.