Test. replacement is rather frustrating, help if you can.

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    Test. replacement is rather frustrating, help if you can.


    I have been taking 100 mg of T. Cyp for the last almost 7 weeks and my trough total test was retested 340 (day before next injection). My pre-treatment levels where in the low 200s confirmed by MS/LC. I have seen two HRT specialists one my Endo, and a second whom is a pHD level compound pharmacist. My endo recommends increasing the dose to 120 mg q 5 days, and my pharmacist recommends going to 200 mg every 5 days (big dose I know). I was wondering if anyone else has had a similiar problem? I have had mild improvement in mood, but not much change in libido, body composition, etc.

    I had the huge work up including thyroid, cortisol, pituitary panel and was diagnosed with hypogonadal hypogonadism. I am almost 35 years old and have always athletic and have been steadily gaining bad weight despite adequate excercise and diet, along with poor libido, irritability, etc. I basically had all the symptoms, and was diagnosed initially with obstructive sleep apnea after a sleep study. After 2 mos of CPAP I was sleeping better, but still had the other symptoms, so we went exploring down the low testosterone route (as OSA and hypogonadism have almost identical symptoms), and voila it came back very low (twice). Any help would be appreciated regarding lack of response to strong doses of test.

    Thanks in advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by getsone View Post
    I have been taking 100 mg of T. Cyp for the last almost 7 weeks and my trough total test was retested 340 (day before next injection). My pre-treatment levels where in the low 200s confirmed by MS/LC. I have seen two HRT specialists one my Endo, and a second whom is a pHD level compound pharmacist. My endo recommends increasing the dose to 120 mg q 5 days, and my pharmacist recommends going to 200 mg every 5 days (big dose I know). I was wondering if anyone else has had a similiar problem? I have had mild improvement in mood, but not much change in libido, body composition, etc.

    I had the huge work up including thyroid, cortisol, pituitary panel and was diagnosed with hypogonadal hypogonadism. I am almost 35 years old and have always athletic and have been steadily gaining bad weight despite adequate excercise and diet, along with poor libido, irritability, etc. I basically had all the symptoms, and was diagnosed initially with obstructive sleep apnea after a sleep study. After 2 mos of CPAP I was sleeping better, but still had the other symptoms, so we went exploring down the low testosterone route (as OSA and hypogonadism have almost identical symptoms), and voila it came back very low (twice). Any help would be appreciated regarding lack of response to strong doses of test.

    Thanks in advance.
    Drs are not checking the full parameters for hormone therapy. When T goes up so does e2 which needs to be monitored. This can completely hault the benefits of HRT. There is not enough to go one. I usually require a full bio, 3 day eating plan, and numerous other information to even know where to begin.
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    My Estrogen panel was within normal limts (low 30s). He did a pretty thorough eval. imo (usually endos are pretty anal). I eat a decent diet, and splurge for a date night with the wife once per week, and excercise vigourously between 5-7 days per week. My follow up Estradiol post initiation of therapy was unchanged from the original (low 30s).
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    100mg of shots dont do sh*t for me either. Puts me in the 400's. And not enough DHT conversion.

    However, 300mg of compounded gel makes me a pornstar. Much higher DHT, levels in the 1000+ng/dl and double the free-t range. Dont even need much E2 control either as the DHT keeps estogen under control.

    So dont believe all the hype that shots are the only way to go and gels suck. It seems to be the going notion most places. I bought into and switched to shots and learned my lesson. Now i'm back to my gels and feel great. Will only use shots for running super high doses when doing a steroid cycle, and even then i'm going with quick acting esters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    100mg of shots dont do sh*t for me either. Puts me in the 400's. And not enough DHT conversion.

    However, 300mg of compounded gel makes me a pornstar. Much higher DHT, levels in the 1000+ng/dl and double the free-t range. Dont even need much E2 control either as the DHT keeps estogen under control.

    So dont believe all the hype that shots are the only way to go and gels suck. It seems to be the going notion most places. I bought into and switched to shots and learned my lesson. Now i'm back to my gels and feel great. Will only use shots for running super high doses when doing a steroid cycle, and even then i'm going with quick acting esters.
    Thanks. I have heard alot of good things about the gels, however, I am frightened (and I am sure it is mostly paranoia) about one my kids getting a hold of the stuff, or somehow it getting transferred to them or my wife. I also work a goofy schedule which would make application times odd as well. I would probably like the higher DHT levels given the increased libido, etc., but have you had any issues with hair loss running that dose? Perhaps I will need to suck it up and just switch to the gel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by getsone View Post
    Thanks. I have heard alot of good things about the gels, however, I am frightened (and I am sure it is mostly paranoia) about one my kids getting a hold of the stuff, or somehow it getting transferred to them or my wife. I also work a goofy schedule which would make application times odd as well. I would probably like the higher DHT levels given the increased libido, etc., but have you had any issues with hair loss running that dose? Perhaps I will need to suck it up and just switch to the gel.
    no hairloss. If you are prone, it will accelerate hairloss, but its going to happen anyways.

    Some people do quite well on 100mg/wk of cypionate but my issue is a low SHBG which causes me to hypermetabolize the drug leaving nothing left over by the end of the week. With cream, i'm using 150mg 2x per day...morning and night. So, you may not need nearly as high dosage as me, or as frequent...but i can assure you, if you can obtain the same total T with gels, the DHT will be 2/3x higher than shots, offer much more mental affects, libido etc...
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    no hairloss. If you are prone, it will accelerate hairloss, but its going to happen anyways.

    Some people do quite well on 100mg/wk of cypionate but my issue is a low SHBG which causes me to hypermetabolize the drug leaving nothing left over by the end of the week. With cream, i'm using 150mg 2x per day...morning and night. So, you may not need nearly as high dosage as me, or as frequent...but i can assure you, if you can obtain the same total T with gels, the DHT will be 2/3x higher than shots, offer much more mental affects, libido etc...
    Cool. I will try and get dialed in with the IM injections, but if I am not having good effects when the numbers hit the desired range, I may switch. With three kids in the house ages 6 to 3 mos. I am hesitant to use the gel for fear of accidental transfer, but if it is the final route I will go there. Thanks again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Drs are not checking the full parameters for hormone therapy. When T goes up so does e2 which needs to be monitored. This can completely hault the benefits of HRT. There is not enough to go one. I usually require a full bio, 3 day eating plan, and numerous other information to even know where to begin.
    Can't help but wonder if E2 levels are in check if maybe progesterone is too high and that may keep DHT levels too low.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    However, 300mg of compounded gel makes me a pornstar. Much higher DHT, levels in the 1000+ng/dl and double the free-t range. Dont even need much E2 control either as the DHT keeps estogen under control.

    So dont believe all the hype that shots are the only way to go and gels suck. It seems to be the going notion most places. I bought into and switched to shots and learned my lesson. Now i'm back to my gels and feel great. Will only use shots for running super high doses when doing a steroid cycle, and even then i'm going with quick acting esters.
    Probably because so many doctors will only use Androgel or Testim and some men are poor absorbers for whatever reason. Who knows where we might be if compunded gel was available everywhere for everyone?
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    340 day before inject probably puts you at 700 day after inject, so its not that bad as an average.
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    340 day before inject probably puts you at 700 day after inject, so its not that bad as an average.
    I haven't really felt better, so not so much the level that bothered me. If I was on a 7 day injection cycle it would probably be close to optimal if I had felt improved, but on a 5 day cycle I was hoping to be higher than 340 on the day before the next injection. I incidentally am running 150 q 5 days and admittedly feel much better (who knows if it's placebo). I am also starting a DIM compound to see if it helps with E levels, although my last one at the 100mg q 5 days was only in the 30s. I the downside to IM is the decreased DHT conversion which would probably really kick start me if I had more floating around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    100mg of shots dont do sh*t for me either. Puts me in the 400's. And not enough DHT conversion.

    However, 300mg of compounded gel makes me a pornstar. Much higher DHT, levels in the 1000+ng/dl and double the free-t range. Dont even need much E2 control either as the DHT keeps estogen under control.

    So dont believe all the hype that shots are the only way to go and gels suck. It seems to be the going notion most places. I bought into and switched to shots and learned my lesson. Now i'm back to my gels and feel great. Will only use shots for running super high doses when doing a steroid cycle, and even then i'm going with quick acting esters.
    Agreed on all points.

    I am currently using a low dose of test-prop now for TRT, shooting eod, and hardly need to use much of an AI. I used to use a lot. I also apply a little bit of test cream to the nads twice per week for DHT. Things are good like this, for me.

    I've tried hcg mono, hcg + test-cyp (too much estrogen, not enough DHT), and hcg+creams, and because of transference, I find my current protocol the best, and safest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Agreed on all points.

    I am currently using a low dose of test-prop now for TRT, shooting eod, and hardly need to use much of an AI. I used to use a lot. I also apply a little bit of test cream to the nads twice per week for DHT. Things are good like this, for me.

    I've tried hcg mono, hcg + test-cyp (too much estrogen, not enough DHT), and hcg+creams, and because of transference, I find my current protocol the best, and safest.

    That is an interesting regime. Who do you use for your TRT?
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    I used androgel and in 2 years never "felt" good. My test levels when I started was 180 and my low test symptoms were severe. 200mgs eow of Test-e made me feel a little better, but it wasn't until I upped to 200mg ew that I started feeling like my old self. My doctor wasn't very good and I didn't know about forums like this. There's a lot of knowledge here and guys that really want to help. I hope you feel better soon.
    Last edited by omni; 01-19-2011 at 12:43 AM. Reason: spelling
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    Been on TRT since 2007. Have gone from androgel to Testim to test cyp shots at 100mg every five days BACK to Testim. The gels are just more consistent, and better on mood, etc. No up and down effects. Yes, they are a pain in the ass to use and apply, but they simply maintain levels better. If you need a higher dose, simply use more gel...
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    Quote Originally Posted by getsone View Post
    That is an interesting regime. Who do you use for your TRT?
    Currently using Spectrum, but I'm switching to a closer clinic in NY as I may be moving back to Toronto (Canada). I'm not familiar with any clinics up there, so NY would be the closest. If I stay in NY longterm, I may switch to Overbeck+mtrx in PA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Currently using Spectrum, but I'm switching to a closer clinic in NY as I may be moving back to Toronto (Canada). I'm not familiar with any clinics up there, so NY would be the closest. If I stay in NY longterm, I may switch to Overbeck+mtrx in PA.
    Cool, thanks. If I don't have good success with my endo, it is nice to have a back-up plan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Currently using Spectrum, but I'm switching to a closer clinic in NY as I may be moving back to Toronto (Canada). I'm not familiar with any clinics up there, so NY would be the closest. If I stay in NY longterm, I may switch to Overbeck+mtrx in PA.
    Be glad to have you aboard and interested to learn about different approaches as long as they can be justified medically its not an issue..
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    I've had issues with trying to get clinics to prescribe both shots and cream simultaneously, even Spectrum surprisingly won't do this. I like the convenience of shots and the steady flow of test, but I don't get enough DHT this way, so I had to get my own t-cream and apply 2-3 times per week to the nads for a boost.

    I'm sure E2 levels will be fairly similar even if shooting cyp eod, instead of prop. I've been using prop mainly because of generally less E2 conversion (anecdotal evidence points to it being drier), and using prop forces me to shoot eod.. No delaying the shots due to time constraints, etc.. it forces me to make time, and prop loads up much quicker in slin pins, due to the lower viscosity. I don't know many docs who prescribe prop for TRT though, mostly seen it in the clinics.

    Would Overbeck prescribe aromasin? I've been able to source it fine on my own, but it's nice to be on the record with everything. I have much better success with a low dose of aromasin, instead of arimidex, and much better lipid values on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I've had issues with clinics wanting to prescribe both shots and cream simultaneously, even Spectrum surprisingly won't do this. I like the convenience of shots and the steady flow of test, but I don't get enough DHT this way, so I had to get my own t-cream and apply 2-3 times per week to the nads for a boost.

    I'm sure E2 levels will be fairly similar even if shooting cyp eod, instead of prop. I've been using prop mainly because of generally less E2 conversion (anecdotal evidence points to it being drier), and using prop forces me to shoot eod.. No delaying the shots due to time constraints, etc.. it forces me to make time, and prop loads up much quicker in slin pins, due to the lower viscosity. I don't know many docs who prescribe prop for TRT though, mostly seen it in the clinics.

    Would Overbeck prescribe aromasin? I've been able to source it fine on my own, but it's nice to be on the record with everything. I have much better success with a low dose of aromasin, instead of arimidex, and much better lipid values on it.
    Yes, Adex can destroy HDL fast. My doc scripted it too. I stopped when my HDL dropped below 45. Now it's 60.
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    Trough level repeated (day before injection) at 704. I will draw a peak level tomorrow (24 hrs post injection). Still taking 150 mg t.cyp q 5 days, and I feel really good at this dose. I saw the endo today and he was very happy that I am seeing results and was okay with keeping the dose where it is currently
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    Thanks Monsterbox!


    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    100mg of shots dont do sh*t for me either. Puts me in the 400's. And not enough DHT conversion.

    However, 300mg of compounded gel makes me a pornstar. Much higher DHT, levels in the 1000+ng/dl and double the free-t range. Dont even need much E2 control either as the DHT keeps estogen under control.

    So dont believe all the hype that shots are the only way to go and gels suck. It seems to be the going notion most places. I bought into and switched to shots and learned my lesson. Now i'm back to my gels and feel great. Will only use shots for running super high doses when doing a steroid cycle, and even then i'm going with quick acting esters.
    This is a good to know. I switched from Androgel to a compounded cream two weeks ago. Androgel (6 pumps per day) didn't do sh*t for me and I was on it for 7 months. New doctor prescribed compounded cream at 200 mgs/ml once per day. This stuff works great but I feel my levels drop off by mid-afternoon. Tried splitting does to 1/2 ml twice a day, but it didn't do sh*t for me. Talked to doctor again and she is going to put me on 200 mgs/ml twice per day. Doctor gave me option of shots (subcutaneous injections of testosterone twice weekly), but I didn't want to get into injecting myself twice a week. Now I feel like I made a good decision by going to cream twice a day.
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    I must be one of the fortunate one's that androgel has worked for. I started on androderm around 7 years ago. I hated those patches. They never stuck very well and left burn marks on my skin. Then swithced to the gel, in packet form, not the pump. Been taking 2 packets twice a day on M, W, F, and just two packets on Tu, Th, Sa., and Sun. I get blood work done every 6 months. Just had my test results read to me at the end of last month. My total test was 1226. My doc had me go down to just 2 packets on wednesday to see if we can get my total test to around 1000. When I started my test levels were 240.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysbroke View Post
    I must be one of the fortunate one's that androgel has worked for. I started on androderm around 7 years ago. I hated those patches. They never stuck very well and left burn marks on my skin. Then swithced to the gel, in packet form, not the pump. Been taking 2 packets twice a day on M, W, F, and just two packets on Tu, Th, Sa., and Sun. I get blood work done every 6 months. Just had my test results read to me at the end of last month. My total test was 1226. My doc had me go down to just 2 packets on wednesday to see if we can get my total test to around 1000. When I started my test levels were 240.
    Why are these dr making it so complex when the its just a simple thing to do
    With 4 packs of androgel your e2 and dht are probable through the rough.
    Just start with 2 packs a day then remeasure after 10 days 2 hours after application on opposite arm you put the gel. Then adjust from there. It is not rocket science and your dr needs to be schooled in proper HRT protocol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Why are these dr making it so complex when the its just a simple thing to do
    With 4 packs of androgel your e2 and dht are probable through the rough.
    Just start with 2 packs a day then remeasure after 10 days 2 hours after application on opposite arm you put the gel. Then adjust from there. It is not rocket science and your dr needs to be schooled in proper HRT protocol.
    OP, Sorry for the thread hijack.


    I'm not sure what all they check with my blood work. I know he checks, my liver, cholesterol, triglicerides...and a whole long list of other things. He just always says things look perfect besides one liver enzyme. It is always at 55 and he said they don't worry untill it's over 150, even though normal is around30. I've been on this same dosage for several years now. Is there something I should ask the doc?

    If need be I can make a new thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysbroke View Post
    OP, Sorry for the thread hijack.


    I'm not sure what all they check with my blood work. I know he checks, my liver, cholesterol, triglicerides...and a whole long list of other things. He just always says things look perfect besides one liver enzyme. It is always at 55 and he said they don't worry untill it's over 150, even though normal is around30. I've been on this same dosage for several years now. Is there something I should ask the doc?

    If need be I can make a new thread.
    get a new dr

    liver enzymes over 150 your dr should not be practng medicine
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    just go to 200mg ew man.
    its a nice spot for me. 200-250mg ew.
    why SHLOUDENT you feel good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysbroke View Post
    OP, Sorry for the thread hijack.


    I'm not sure what all they check with my blood work. I know he checks, my liver, cholesterol, triglicerides...and a whole long list of other things. He just always says things look perfect besides one liver enzyme. It is always at 55 and he said they don't worry untill it's over 150, even though normal is around30. I've been on this same dosage for several years now. Is there something I should ask the doc?

    If need be I can make a new thread.
    HRT and test shots shoudl nto effect your liver.
    i think a new doc is in order.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAHHH View Post
    HRT and test shots shoudl nto effect your liver.
    i think a new doc is in order.
    I would run a heptatis panel, and refer you out to a liver specailist for ultrasound and further evaluation. If you work out the day before or did cardio before the test then it could have altered the testing results other wise it is sign of another issue such as potential thyroid issues and whole list of other medical concerns.
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