HCG advice needed. I'm SHUT DOWN at 25 total T!

[airvine91]

Well here's the short of my situation. Ran a cycle of Test (500mg weekly) for 10 weeks. Came off using a standard PCT for a month. Felt like utter **** still after my PCT and decided to get my blood tested. Found low levels in the 300s. Doc said come back and we will test again to see if you rebound. Found my levels laying in the upper 100s. Doc said it must have been a fluke. Tested me again 2 weeks later and found total T of 25 and Free of 4.6

Now the long of it......

So basically I was consistently dropping week after week. I lost allot of size, especially strength. I feel lethargic. When I wake up in the mornings I feel like a train hit me and lay in bed for another hour. Overall I feel like crap. No hardons no motivation. Gym training has me feeling like I'm an AIDS patient working like a dog in a Vietnamese sweatshop.

So the doc after seeing the level of 25 was shocked. He offered TRT, but I explained my desire to father a son one day. He said how about I give you 50mg of Clomid and see what happens. I insisted on Nolvadex, saying it blocks estrogen at the pituitary much better. So he put me on 40mg of Nolvadex and wrote me a script for 60 pills with 4 refills. Took that for 2 weeks and decided to call the doc up on the phone and said "Hey! I still feel the same". And then I preceded to ask if he could prescribe me some HCG. He paused and said... why not just stay on the Nolva. And I said, I can't possibly block estrogen if my body isn't making any T for Estrogen to convert to. So he said "so, what do you want?" I asked for 10,000 IUs of Novarel for 3 weeks. He said ok "ill give a script for 6 bottles of Novarel, with 2x refills for 6 bottles each refill". He said, "you should be set for 6 months or so, I'll see you in two months for your checkup, ciao". I was like wtf, he just gave me a years worth of HRT using HCG, not to mention I now have well over a years worth of Tamoxifen. Does this guy know what he is doing??? I just needed enough to get kickstarted again and he just hands me enough for HRT. Good thing I know what I'm doing otherwise my dumb butt would be stuck with only 50mg of clomid ED

I feel like I am treating myself at this point.
Some doctors administer 3000ius 2x weekly or 2000ius 3x weekly.
I know the standard protocol for PCT is 500Ius ED for 3 weeks.

So I've decided to go 500IUs ED in the mornings to mimic my natural curve.
Is this the best way to go? At this dose I'd be at 3500IU week, not the 6000IUs seen on other protocols. And I'd have LOTS of HCG for almost a year left.

1.) How should my HCG be dosed during the week to shock my nuts back to size?

2.) Should I cut my Nolvadex dose down from 40mg to 20mg ED?

3.) How quickly should the HCG start making my Test go up? I've been doing 500IU ED for the last 3 days and feel almost no changes in volume and well being.

4.) lastly and least importantly, I do IM shots of HCG. I've heard the HCG peaks in your blood twice as fast compared to SQ. Like 7hours vs 14hours.
Is IM > SQ or no difference. Or would SQ mimic my natural curve better?

I need some guidance. I just want my nuts making 700+ Total T and to be healthy like I was before. No way should one isolated cycle have affected me this badly especially after a solid PCT.


Sorry for the lengthy dialogue.

 

[chocolatemilk]

What was your standard protocol for PCT from your test cycle?

You can think of hCG as artificially raising your test because your LH will still be shut down in the pituitary from continuous hCG use. If you use hCG continuously, consider yourself on hCG replacement therapy, and you don't want that! So be careful here.

If I were you, I would take enough to shock them to size, once size is ok, start taking clomid and STOP hCG. Clomid is better at bringing test back or so I've heard.

I do SQ injections on the sides of my stomach and it has kept my balls big from a superdrol cycle and superdrol is notorious for shut down so clearly subQ abdomen shots work. But it's up to you. I like it there because it's closer to my nuts too as opposed to injecting in my shoulder.

 

[airvine91]

What was your standard protocol for PCT from your test cycle?

You can think of hCG as artificially raising your test because your LH will still be shut down in the pituitary from continuous hCG use. If you use hCG continuously, consider yourself on hCG replacement therapy, and you don't want that! So be careful here.

If I were you, I would take enough to shock them to size, once size is ok, start taking clomid and STOP hCG. Clomid is better at bringing test back or so I've heard.

I do SQ injections on the sides of my stomach and it has kept my balls big from a superdrol cycle and superdrol is notorious for shut down so clearly subQ abdomen shots work. But it's up to you. I like it there because it's closer to my nuts too as opposed to injecting in my shoulder.

My PCT was 20mg Nolva for 30 days
500IU HCG for 1 week
And Aromasin for roughly half a month

And your suggesting I do a big shot 2-3x weekly instead of ED?

 

[chocolatemilk]

Aromasin in pct wasn't a good idea. You want estro to come back up so your test could come back up with it. They go hand in hand. The nolva wouldn't have touched the estro but just "disable" it if you will. And the hcg for 500iu for a full week just kept you shut down.

PCT could have been the problem.

HCG WILL keep you shut down the longer you use it. To me the logical thing to do is shock the nuts back to size, stop hCG, and start clomid. Balls will be functioning, and clomid will restart hpta and begin raise LH. Balls will pick up the signal.

 

[airvine91]

Ok, I'm understanding your logic. Only thing however, how would lowered Estro keep me shutdown? I thought Aromasin was good to include in a PCT?

So I should do 5000IUs 2x weekly until my nuts are swellin? Then just stay on the Nolvadex? Btw, Nolvadex does block estro at the Pituitary better than Clomid with less sides.

 

[chocolatemilk]

I have read that estrogen coming up in PCT will help your test come up with it. They go up together. Aromasin killed you estro levels depending on the dose so it might have been harder to get test up.

Nolva is just better at not allowing estrogen to bind to breast tissue for gyno.

I don't know the exact dose of HCG you're looking for to do this to be honest. I would get clomid also IMO. A lot of people on here say it is better at bringing test up.

 

[chocolatemilk]

BTW do not gauge if hCG is working or not by "well being" not a good inidcator like you have in question 3. The best indicator is balls come back to normal size which they should pretty much instantly after hCG injections.

Switch over to subq in 3 inches to the left or right of belly button if IM hasn't brought them back to size.

 

[SouthernCharm]

Aromasin should be used as needed DURING cycle not PCT. I have also heard and read negative comments about HCG being used during PCT... These are things to take during cycle as a preventative.. Chocolate Milk is right, if you nuked your estrogen levels your test will suffer too.

 

[airvine91]

BTW do not gauge if hCG is working or not by "well being" not a good inidcator like you have in question 3. The best indicator is balls come back to normal size which they should pretty much instantly after hCG injections.

Switch over to subq in 3 inches to the left or right of belly button if IM hasn't brought them back to size.

Ok, well in that case my testicles don't feel atrophied anymore like they were. In fact they felt like a squished grape. Now they feel like a bruised grape, not hard but not squishy and empty.

lol sorry for the analogy. But, do I wait until they feel large and hard? I feel like they have to be slightly larger than they are now.

For the IM i take the 1/2 29g Needle and just push it into my quad. I believe it should hit the top of the muscle tissue but not go deep IM.

 

[chocolatemilk]

Give yourself a 500-1000 iu shot in the stomach where I said for 3 days or so. This will NO Doubt get the nuts up and running and start nolvadex ONLY after that for a month.

Don't do it in the quads. It may work in the quad, but I was told by many reputable people on here to hit the stomach area when I was learning how to use the stuff and it's been working great.

use the 1/2 29 guage but If you have 1 cc 29 guage try those since you're doing larger doses so you don't inject multiple times. Your choice here.

PCT looks like it was the probelm. Aromasin, plus hcg 500iu for 1 week, and nolva together seem like they would throw things off.

PS don't overthink how your testicles feel, if they are not atrophied, that's good. My nuts feel like squishy grapes after cardio and feel like rocks after showering in cold water lol. They will mutate on you from time to time.

 

[airvine91]

So a few days of HCG just to shock the testicles to a larger size. Then get off it and run Nolva only after? I have a script for 40mg ED, but is 20mg more than enough? Or is 40mg ED better?

And DAMN! My doc is nuts then for giving me ALL that Novarel and Tamox. Can't complain though



lastly, should all go well would I be producing in the upper 700s again? I'm young (19 years). I really want to be able to get big but using my bodies own T. If I end up only reaching in the 300s then I'll say **** it and run TRT and use rFSH when I'm ready for a baby.

 

[chocolatemilk]

Doctors are human beings.

Yea you should try that. You have nothing to lose and it seems the best way to go about this for the moment with the tools at your disposal. Keep it at 40 for the first week if the script says that then bring it down to 30/20/20 and get bloods after this.

Please don't try to "feel" whether this is working or not. It's damn near impossible to tell what's going on in your body without labs and bloods. You will wake up without morning wood some days, you will feel tired as hell some days, and you will feel like sh*t some days and just wanna lay in bed all morning. That is just life. Don't "symptomize" things. Just made up that word.

Do this, get bloods, and report back in here on how you did and good luck!

EDIT: YOU'RE ONLY 19 LOL. Wow... this changes things. I don't feel good all of the sudden telling you to dump these things into a a body who's endocrine system hasn't matured yet.

I would do whatever your doctor tells you to do kid.

 

[airvine91]

I happened to have an appointment to get bloods tomorrow morning. I've been on HCG 500IUs for 3-4 days already and have been on the nolva 40mg ed for like 2-3 weeks.

The appt. for bloods is 9:15 AM so I'll get the highest possible TEST levels at that hour.

1.) Should I go in fasted?

2.) Should I administer my HCG as directed but after my blood work? or before as usual?

3.) Take the Nolva as usual? I'll still have it in my system anyways so I guess do the morning dose.

And yeah, was dumb for juicing. I wanted the fast track to lean bulk and sort of got. I was never higher than 550ng Total however before hoping on. I'll try to get back full on naturally but if I have truly induced primary hypogonadism (permanent) than I will just resign and do TRT which my doctor said would be the next step. If I want kids at that point I will simply do a course of rFSH to get some swimmers in my nut.

 

[airvine91]

Went in this morning for blood fasting. Threw in lipids and a few other tests. The doctor said stay on 500IUs for 3 weeks and return after for more blood. He also said stick to the Nolvadex 40mg/day

Guess I'll see how that goes. A few days on HCG and I'm already feeling better with mood and energy. I'm less lethargic feeling.

 

[chocolatemilk]

Listen to the doc bud. Although I don't understand the reasoning for BOTH nolva and hcg together?

 

[dcoxd21]

Can you go on shut down even when you have not tried performance enhancing stuff?

 

[dcoxd21]

I have the exact same symtoms of shut down, but I have never taken anything. My total testosterone is 600 - 700 (blood test), but my testosterone levels when taken by saliva is not even in range (very low). Any ideas?

 

[airvine91]

I have the exact same symtoms of shut down, but I have never taken anything. My total testosterone is 600 - 700 (blood test), but my testosterone levels when taken by saliva is not even in range (very low). Any ideas?

I would check my free testosterone levels as that is the value that matters most. It's the bodies usable source of T

 

[dcoxd21]

What is the normal remedy if free T is low? From what I have read docs wont necessarily care if total T is good.

 

[airvine91]

What is the normal remedy if free T is low? From what I have read docs wont necessarily care if total T is good.

Ummm, not a doctors remedy but Stinging Nettle Root (not the leaves extract)
has been shown to bind up SHBG which should increase Free T.

Try TestoPro or Activate Xtreme, or you can buy bulk Divanil on NP

6-OXO has also been shown to bind up SHBG

Another cheap supplement: DHEA is good for lowering SHBG

"SHBG is made in the liver in response to levels of many hormones:
1. Increasing Testosterone reduces SHBG
2. Increasing DHT lowers SHBG
3. Increasing DHEA lowers SHBG
4. Increasing Growth Hormone lowers SHBG
5. Increasing Insulin lowers SHBG
6. Increasing Estrogen increases SHBG
7. Increasing Thyroid Hormone increases SHBG" -Mesomorphosis.com

 

[matthew76]

Natural remedies will not help in this situation. Your doctor's logic seems a bit skewed; although, I would follow it to the T and re-test as he requests. Do not stray, for he is treating you and cannot do so precisely if you are self-medicating. Re-starts are possible even if it takes a year. If you feel uncomfortable with your doctor, find an Endo that will help. It took me going to 4 doctors until I found mine. Good luck to you, and I hope you err to the side of caution, for this is a serious manner. Once again, this is a Forum for ideas and it should not replace proper medical advisement and guidance.

Ummm, not a doctors remedy but Stinging Nettle Root (not the leaves extract)
has been shown to bind up SHBG which should increase Free T.

Try TestoPro or Activate Xtreme, or you can buy bulk Divanil on NP

6-OXO has also been shown to bind up SHBG

Another cheap supplement: DHEA is good for lowering SHBG

"SHBG is made in the liver in response to levels of many hormones:
1. Increasing Testosterone reduces SHBG
2. Increasing DHT lowers SHBG
3. Increasing DHEA lowers SHBG
4. Increasing Growth Hormone lowers SHBG
5. Increasing Insulin lowers SHBG
6. Increasing Estrogen increases SHBG
7. Increasing Thyroid Hormone increases SHBG" -Mesomorphosis.com

 

[dcoxd21]

I also know my estradial is sky high (double the lab range) and my total T has been 600 and 670 on two occasions. I am going to an endo on Monday, is there anything I should specifically ask him to test, and suggestions I could make to him? From what I can gather they sometimes need pointing in the right direction.

 

[airvine91]

Many factors can influence the amount of the aromatase enzyme we produce: Diet, artificial products, alcohol, fat tissue.

The doc may give you an AI in small doses?

 

[DT5]

dude. use clomid for 3 weeks. it raised my test up to 800 from 300. of course it went back down in my case, but it may restart u. nolva is a carcinogen. stay away

 

[airvine91]

dude. use clomid for 3 weeks. it raised my test up to 800 from 300. of course it went back down in my case, but it may restart u. nolva is a carcinogen. stay away

What was your dose for clomid? All i know is that Nolva blocks estrogen at the pituitary better than clomid and acts as an estrogen in the liver.

 

[dcoxd21]

What happens when you restart? And will I need it if my total T is 600 - 700? Going to my endo tomorrow.

 

[matthew76]

Are you opposed to going on TRT, and if yes, why?

 

[airvine91]

Are you opposed to going on TRT, and if yes, why?

Are you asking me?

 

[matthew76]

Are you asking me?

Hahahaa! You are the OP, right? I understand that you want to avoid it because of the child issue; however, I must add that you can always do a restart routine when you are ready for such. I am on TRT and I felt the same way about having kids, so I saw a fertility specialist. He had me stock-pile some sperm (medical bank) and told me that once we want to try the natural way, he will give me hCG and alter my Testosterone dosage. He does this for all of his patients and has an 85% rate for pregnancy. The banking of sperm is a fall-back just in case we need to go that route. But for me, TRT was a must! I could not live feeling like sh*t everyday, especially given my career. Just keep your mind open and see as many specialists as it takes until you feel better - never give up. I wish you luck. Oh, and NEVER self medicate an issue of this importance.

 

[Texan281]

Hahahaa! You are the OP, right? I understand that you want to avoid it because of the child issue; however, I must add that you can always do a restart routine when you are ready for such. I am on TRT and I felt the same way about having kids, so I saw a fertility specialist. He had me stock-pile some sperm (medical bank) and told me that once we want to try the natural way, he will give me hCG and alter my Testosterone dosage. He does this for all of his patients and has an 85% rate for pregnancy. The banking of sperm is a fall-back just in case we need to go that route. But for me, TRT was a must! I could not live feeling like sh*t everyday, especially given my career. Just keep your mind open and see as many specialists as it takes until you feel better - never give up. I wish you luck. Oh, and NEVER self medicate an issue of this importance.

Very good real life advice. If i was the OP I would feel tons better about the situation

 

[airvine91]

Are you opposed to going on TRT, and if yes, why?

Opposed? Yes and no......

No, because if my doctor places me on 1cc of Cypionate a week, that should give me 1400+ Total (I'm guessing, and every person utilizes T differently). I would LOVE to be in the Above normal high range. I'd put on more mass, have killer libido, and a great sense of well being.

Yes, because I really want a son. My woman really will want a son. She says if she ever catches me juicing again then she will cut my nuts off and shank me with my needle (cuban temper). Another reason is I know the testicles produce more hormones than simply test and they utilize a good amount of cholesterol. Another reason is LDL levels would go up if i went on TRT and I already have high cholesterol which runs in the family. Another reason is I don't like the inconvenience of jabbing my butt once a week. And lastly, I feel that if I can bring myself up naturally and get in the 700-800 range naturally than I can ride out being natural for the next 10 years or so. I mean who says you can't get beastly huge on 700-800???

I will see what happens when I come off HCG therapy and Nolvadex. If I am in the 300-400s and I know thats all I'll ever get up to, then I guess I'll ask my doc for some cyp.

I do know for a FACT, and its probably not a good thing. But, if I were on TRT for life and knew I'd never have to worry about shutdown again then I'd probably run some anabolics on the side of my trt doses for 8-12 weeks periods and cycle on and off all the time. And of course no matter what I'd have to have some low dose Aromasin handy to go along my TRT to avoid estrogen buildup.

 

[airvine91]

Got my blood back. All levels normal ranges except for Cortisol which was high, and LH/FSH which was shut off.

Big question to y'all.

Since I'm on HCG and technically my pituitary is shut down, but my balls are making T due to the HCG, thennn I guess I'm technically shut down still only my balls are no longer atrophied.

Soooo..... being that said. If I ran 400mg of Deca/week while on the HCG therapy would my testicles still remain full from the HCG and continue producing T so long as Im on the HCG and not affect anything?

I'd simply come off the deca and and the HCG a week after I came off the deca and begin the Nolvadex therapy. Make sense?

Or no?

 

[chocolatemilk]

Stick to fixing your system right now you're 19... get LH going.

 

[airvine91]

Stick to fixing your system right now you're 19... get LH going.

Well as long as I'm on the HCG my LH and FSH will be off. And even before I ever ran any aas my test was never higher than 540 which bummed me out. And since my LH is shut off anyways and adding any anabolics wont affect my T production then would Deca be a problem for like roughly 2 months because the doc is keeping me on HCG for at least 3 months he said. I dont see any harm in Deca, and honestly the HCG im taking right now has already pumped the nads up enough to where I should just go to nolva right now, but the doc says stay on it. So I dont really understand his logic here.

 

[chocolatemilk]

Well as long as I'm on the HCG my LH and FSH will be off. And even before I ever ran any aas my test was never higher than 540 which bummed me out. And since my LH is shut off anyways and adding any anabolics wont affect my T production then would Deca be a problem for like roughly 2 months because the doc is keeping me on HCG for at least 3 months he said. I dont see any harm in Deca, and honestly the HCG im taking right now has already pumped the nads up enough to where I should just go to nolva right now, but the doc says stay on it. So I dont really understand his logic here.

hCG will keep your nads full no matter what roids you are taking even decca. And yes you WILL still be shut down in the LH department.

You don't see harm in decca right now lol? You took aas and look at the problem you're dealing with.

Fix the problem first. No 19 year old should ever use AAS.

 

[airvine91]

hCG will keep your nads full no matter what roids you are taking even decca. And yes you WILL still be shut down in the LH department.

You don't see harm in decca right now lol? You took aas and look at the problem you're dealing with.

Fix the problem first. No 19 year old should ever use AAS.

See thats exactly what I'm saying. The LH will be off whether I just do HCG or if I do HCG and Deca. And I'd get the deca out of my system way before the doc pulls me of HCG. Thats just my rationale. I guess since Im on synthetic LH might as well take advantage of the fact Im on it.

 

[chocolatemilk]

See thats exactly what I'm saying. The LH will be off whether I just do HCG or if I do HCG and Deca. And I'd get the deca out of my system way before the doc pulls me of HCG. Thats just my rationale. I guess since Im on synthetic LH might as well take advantage of the fact Im on it.

It's not just about your LH being off tho... you are 19 years old, you don't have a matured endocrine system yet. Liver, kidneys, blood pressure, it's not just about your LH being off and taking advantage. Steroids don't strictly affect your LH. They affect way more variables.

So you're taking advantage of 1 out of lets say 30 variables (most likely more) ......not so rational anymore thinking of it this way is it?

 

[airvine91]

I have a strong feeling my doc is going to put me on TRT once he takes me off the HCG. I just know it. No way am I going to be higher than my pre-usage levels of 540. I may have to have a nolva or clomid regimine for life to keep me in the upper range naturally.

 

[airvine91]

hCG will keep your nads full no matter what roids you are taking even decca. And yes you WILL still be shut down in the LH department.

You don't see harm in decca right now lol? You took aas and look at the problem you're dealing with.

Fix the problem first. No 19 year old should ever use AAS.

I just realized that it takes roughly a month for the last shot of Deca to clear your system and it's effects on raising prolactin via progesterone stimulation will really kill my libido even if I were producing decent amounts of T.

However, I have a bottle of Pheraplex unused. That would clear my system after the day is over and I'd be able to quickly get in/get out with it before the HCG therapy is over. I could easily pack on size with that if my diet is spot on and I'd get a nice temporary libido boost since it is has a decent androgenic rating.

I'm just really being self conscious because I have been battling shutdown with no assistance after PCT for months and I've shrunken like no other! My cortisol was off the charts and I had NO T at all. The HCG is doing great though, it was a nice break from feeling like **** for months.

 

[matthew76]

We have gone from speaking of TRT/HRT, to you planning a cycle. You are 19; please review the rules.

 

[airvine91]

Update:

Doc just put me on TRT. He decided I was shut off at the pituitary. 250mg/week of Enanthate FOR LIFE

Thoughts? Should I get a second opinion?

 

[matthew76]

Ride the snake, my friend. Welcome to the Circus.

Update:

Doc just put me on TRT. He decided I was shut off at the pituitary. 250mg/week of Enanthate FOR LIFE

Thoughts? Should I get a second opinion?

 

[mav6]

Update:

Thoughts? Should I get a second opinion?

Always get a second opinion. Anything requiring surgery, long term treatment, or life threatening. Two heads are better than one, but never tell the second doc what the first doc said until after he makes his judgement.