Running Test-E Cycle ON-TOP of HRT (with gel)???
- 04-22-2010, 06:35 PM
Running Test-E Cycle ON-TOP of HRT (with gel)???
I'm currently on a compounded gel + HCG 100iu daily. I use arimidex as needed.
Total T - 1100ng/dl
Free T - double the range
E2 - optimal
SHBG - 13.5
So, my levels are already very high.
People have told me the levels I have achieved with my cream usage is = to 250mg testosterone cyp/enanthate. 300mg/test averages around 1300ng/dl for most people supposedly.
Now, this summer, I wish to run some a testosterone enanthate cycle. I want to run the equivalent of a 500mg/w beginner cycle. I wish to gain around 10-15lbs of keepable muscle over 10 weeks.
- How much testosterone enanthate do I need to run?
- Should I continue with my gels and stack 250mg/w of injections on top?
- Will this achieve the same affect as if I go off the cream and run 500mg/w?
In the end, I want to take the minimalist approach. I do not want to mess things up too much. I've had advice from a few suggesting I run 500, and drop the cream and week 2. But, I don't see how thats going to yeild any more gains than runnin the cream throughout w/ 250mg/w. Seems like the cheapest, most sensible route would be to stay on the cream and stack 250 ontop...that way I don't have to worry about timing or drops in T levels.
In the end, if my I'm currently at 1100ng/dl, and I add 250mg thats almost double my testosterone.
If I get off the gel, Ill be much much lower running off HCG alone, my endogeneous is only around 300ng/dl. Running 500mg/injection will yield close to the same number as above.
- 04-23-2010, 06:25 PM
If you have a script for HCG continue throughout to keep your nuts working properly. I would probably stick with ur current TRT regimen, add inject at a low amount and slowly increase till you get negative sides (achne, oily skin etc) then back off slightly = perfect. dont take more than your body can handel, waste of money. most people taking more than 300mg test most often have negative sides but ignore them. dont be a fool... run labs to see where you are at. A buddy of mine running 300 mg cyp a weed had 4500 ng/dl. everyone is different though.... my two cents. be safe~
- 04-24-2010, 12:30 AM
I really think you should drop the cream to keep side effects down, TD ontop of shots I imagine would drive E2 and DHT very high. If you do wanna do both I would add on about 350-400mg with shots.
How I would bridge it would be to start the shots the next day after the cream then restart the cream again 5-10(depending on how you feel) days after the last shot.
04-24-2010, 07:17 PM
04-25-2010, 03:46 PM
didn't you also do a dianabol cycle in between while on trt? did you gain a lot of mass of it
04-25-2010, 04:05 PM
Shots compared to a TD are on another level, much less DHT much less E2.
04-25-2010, 10:39 PM
As of the steroids cycle, I just cannot figure out what dosage to use.
I do not use any arimidex with my cream already as my E2 is pretty damn low. At .5mg/week of adex, my levels were at 9, on the ultra-sensative scale.
If I opt to drop the cream and switch to shots only during the cycle and run 500mg/w, you said I should drop the cream the day before the first shot. Well, Test-E take a long time to kick in correct? So would I not experience a major dip in testosterone for the next 5-10 days until the blood levels build up from the shots?
If I opt to stay on the cream, I do not have to deal with any sort of transition. I should theoretically be able to run 250-300mg/test-E rather than 500mg and have the same effectiveness of a 500mg cycle. Why? because the the first 200mg of the a 500mg cycle is replacing my "physiological" levels while the rest is boosts them "superphysiological". However anything adding above the cream should be boost my levels significantly above my current 1100ng.
So now, its down to the possible aggressiveness of E2/DHT that may arise from cream+shots vs shots alone.
04-25-2010, 11:15 PM
The shots feel better to me, IMO its not the DHT that gives you a good feeling its the T, I feel a lot more norepinephrine than with testogel and arimidex and even hcg all together.
Its most noticable when your at the time of day your T should be dropping like afternoon and night.
Libido has been similar if not slightly better.
They say test E takes a couple weeks to kick in and gels take a couple weeks too but what I think they mean by this is time it takes for low T symptoms to subside or strength in the gym to go up. For me, in terms of how I felt both kicked in same day, the test E peaks 3rd day so if you want you could apply the cream each morning and skip the 2nd dose for the 1st 2 days after taking the 1st shot, then stop on the 3rd day, but for myself personally that wouldn't be necessary.
If you have no concerns about needing arimidex(which could hinder gains if your E2 drops too low on cycle) or skyrocketting DHT then staying on the cream is otherwise a good option.
04-26-2010, 12:31 AM
Test E peaks in 3 days? I read completely otherwise. Everything I've ever read tells me test-e has a very long half-life, 14 days. Meaning it would take 14-28 days for test-e to build up and peak. This is why people 'kickstart" cycles with an oral, because it takes so long for the ester to kick in. However, once it kicks in, the blood levels stay high consistently....so in essence the enanthate ester is a time release that requires build up if its not front loaded extremely.
When my doc prescribed test-c to patients, he front loads them with double the dose for the first 2 shots to spike the blood levels in effort to bring them up faster than the 2 week waiting period.
Maybe what you are experiencing, is the test-e shot itself kicks in by the third day...buts its only delivering a fraction of its rated dosage at that time period. So if its the first 250mg/ml shot, you are maybe getting the first 50mg in your blood stream at day 3. Then the second shot brings that up to 150mg. Then the third shot brings that up to 200mg...fourth shot by day 3 is 250mg....then its 250mg for the next 10 weeks.....
Gels on the other hand are super duper short. They kick in 4-6 hours full blast.
Test-prop is the only ester that kicks in the 3 day time zone you may be reffering too..
I think the best choice for me would be to continue my TRT regime and add on 250mg/wk of testosterone enanthate for 10 weeks. I do not have any arimidex necessity at this time, so I have plenty of adex that I can implement for the addition of the shots.
04-26-2010, 12:35 AM
with your TRT levels alone, did you gain much mass?
04-26-2010, 02:39 AM
The half life is about 7-10 days for T E/C, which is why people here were doing their shots weekly and doing HCG on the 6th and 7th day, or doing shots every 3-4 days such as myself.
I believe the reason people kickstart with orals is because it takes a couple weeks for Testosterone to show a boost in strength in the gym where as dianabol with its more pronounced effect and very short half life works a lot faster.
I too heard about frontloading but recently I heard its not necessary to frontload with TRT even with very long esters although I cant see the logic myself in not frontloading.
The levels will still be levelling out in the 1st month as half-life is not half the time it stays in the system but the amount of time for half the medication to be metabolized so for example a 10day half life would generally mean a peak in 4-6 days, on the 10th day levels will be half of the peak, on the 20th day levels will be a quarter of the peak level, 30th day it will be an 8th of the peak level etc.
04-26-2010, 07:54 AM
Peak concentration and half life of an ester are two completely different things. I think you may be using the interchangeably and they are not.
04-26-2010, 11:54 AM
It's my understanding (from reading and personal experience) that shots greatly elevate E2 compared to TD. Switching from shots to TD, my E2 dropped and DHT rose significantly. I was on much more arimidex while on shots.
04-26-2010, 03:39 PM
I've heard that the constant application of the small amounts of cream daily and the quick metabolism keeps estradiol from building up,
where as the big load of test from 1 shot/week causing much more conversion.
So, as of now, I'm leaning mostly towards...
TRT Protocol + only 250mg/week of Test-E for 10 week.
Kickstarting with havoc for the first 6 weeks.
Regardless of all the variables, 250mg is alot of testosterone on-top of what i'm already taking. I should notice a substantial increase in strength/mass. It will certainly solidify any gains I make on the havoc.
04-26-2010, 08:12 PM
In my experience, I had very high E2 on Andriol, then again on Testogel, the hair on my calves started falling out, blood test confirmed E2 around 1.5-twice the upper limit.
Started on Arimidex and started to notice MPB, now I am on shots with no need for Arimidex and hopefully my hairline slowly comes back.
04-26-2010, 08:49 PM
The creams raise DHT because they pass through the 5AR receptor sites in the skin. Creams can also dramatically raise E2 if they pass through fat sites. My application sites are very very lean...my shoulders and chest are almost striated which is why I believe I have low E2 conversion.
04-27-2010, 04:52 PM
My BF% at the time was higher than what it was when I had to stop the adex. I think high BF also elevates E2 with endogenous T aswell.
04-29-2010, 10:12 AM
Like i said before.. start out with a low amount and work your way up with your test and yes go off of how you feel in addition to other sides. Test e processes faster than test c... more water retention with longer esters. Ive always front loaded my test to get blood levels up. If your blood levels are up and consistant there will be no need to front load. it will be harder for your body to adjust/ balance out if you spike things up. document everything.
04-29-2010, 10:18 AM
05-01-2010, 10:08 AM
If you are thinking about havoc/epistane, it's a good stack with test and should cover your AI if you end up taking a lower dose for the duration of your cycle. You can probably start high and taper low, it's not too toxic and if you've covered yourself for liver toxicity then you're fine. You probably won't see significant gains from havoc though if that's what you're looking for, but you will get decent gains / leaning / vascularity. If you're looking primarily for strength/mass, you could consider kickstarting with superdrol or pplex as long as you have your support supps in place.. or just go the old school route (dbol). Strength gains from sdrol are amazing. Your plan sounds safe enough though.
05-01-2010, 03:56 PM
I ran 40mg/day with my current test base 3 months ago and gained 8lbs. However, it certainly did not substitute as an AI. I actually had to increase my AI strangely enough.
I would def consider kicking off with m-drol as I have an entire bottle. I'm afraid, because last time I touched it, I used it as a bridge from p-plex. P-plex gave me a bunch of anxiety, and when I switched into m-drol, I became super wired. I had really bad insomnia. My liver enzymes were 500's both ALT and AST. I don't know if this is from the m-drol or the preceding pplex run. I was taking plenty of milk thistle exact.
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