three questions about trt primary

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    three questions about trt primary


    Hey guys im still confused about three things, which a doctor hasnt been able to anwser me correctly, any input will be greatly appreciated.

    1: Can a primary on TRT achieve TT levels of 800-900??

    2: a primary on TRT, what can they except from there sex life? will it be normal?

    3: i am 21 years old, and from the way things look like i think TRT is gonna be my option, from here on out from what i understand once i start im going to have to be on this for life, isnt TRT in the future going to cause me alot of health problems?

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    you shouldnt worry especially if you are under medical supervision as you will be monitored throughout the treatment At various stages , you should get a full blood count;liver function test; psa (this measures the size of your prostate) so relax about it.
    search on google for the benefits of testosterone and remember you will only be getting what your body cannot make. It will not be a bodybuilding dose and your body will be able to cope with it just as if it was being produced naturally
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    and the answers to both 1+2 are yes
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    Quote Originally Posted by akiravp82 View Post
    Hey guys im still confused about three things, which a doctor hasnt been able to anwser me correctly, any input will be greatly appreciated.

    1: Can a primary on TRT achieve TT levels of 800-900??

    2: a primary on TRT, what can they except from there sex life? will it be normal?

    3: i am 21 years old, and from the way things look like i think TRT is gonna be my option, from here on out from what i understand once i start im going to have to be on this for life, isnt TRT in the future going to cause me alot of health problems?
    Primary means
    your testicles have been asked to produce testosterone (LH>0 , FSH>0)
    but they did not responded.
    That often means that you will not make a sperm either.

    At 21yo that decision should not be made lithely.

    Make sure that you tested at least
    TotalTestosterone
    LH
    FSH

    ============================== ====================
    If you are primary, holding to testicles is mostly cosmetical.
    But if you are not clear about Primary/secondary
    it is very important to not put your testicles under any additional stress.

    When starting TRT very often testosterone alone is used.
    That causes testicles to shrink, that is a big stress.

    One should always start any type of TRT with

    250iu-HCG shots EOD, Every Other Day
    That will keep your testicles protected.

    When supplying external testosterone, it can be in form of shots or transdermal.

    Decission about transdermal vs injectable should not be made based on doctor or patient (superficial) preferences.

    Status of 5aR should be checked.
    Level of DHT should be checked.

    You are looking for a way of keeping your DHT in upper 1/4 range and not higher.

    Some people have very low DHT, they benefit from transdermal delivery.

    Other must use injections (like it or not).

    Injections should be made just as frequently as one would put on test-gel.
    No real difference there.

    Compromising to EOD schedule also works.

    Any less frequent injection schedule is counter productive.

    =========

    Do not be preoccupied with TotalTest levels during TRT.
    The object of TRT is to get to the desirable levels of
    BAT-BioAvailableTestosterone
    and
    FreeTestosterone

    Total Testosterone is only a means to happy end.

    Because of the above the desirable TotalTestosterone levels will depend on your
    SHBG
    levels (and practically nothing else.

    There is all kind of tests that laboratories made available (just to confuse doctors and patients).

    Your best bet is to (skip any fancy tests, they are nothing but trouble), always check:

    TotalTestosterone
    SHBG
    Albumin

    then look at this chart:
    http://www.andropause.org.uk/nomo_tas.pdf

    and figure your situation.

    Assume that on that chart you want

    FreeT(300-350)

    ============================== ===========================

    There is more.

    Good luck.


    ...
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    Hey thanks alot for the responses guys, another thing thats really freaking me out, ive been reading places online that once your on TRT for a long time it shuts down your bodys own natural testosterone then TRT stops working? whats the story with this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by akiravp82 View Post
    Hey thanks alot for the responses guys, another thing thats really freaking me out, ive been reading places online that once your on TRT for a long time it shuts down your bodys own natural testosterone then TRT stops working? whats the story with this?
    thats a fictional story. you are on TRT BECAUSE your body's natural production is shut down. no evidence that TRT stops working ever.
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    EASYEJL are you secondary or primary? what treatment are you using and how is it working for you?
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    I'm primary, on testosterone injections + hcg + arimidex. Works great, feel like i'm 17 again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'm primary, on testosterone injections + hcg + arimidex. Works great, feel like i'm 17 again.


    hey sorry not trying to get to much into your business, just curious want to know how people are doing with this stuff, how old are you and how many years have you been on TRT? and where does your TT and free T stand at?? Thanks for the response man.
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    well, i'm 42, been on less than a year, and don't recall exactly my TT and free, but they were both at high end of scale
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'm primary, on testosterone injections + hcg + arimidex. Works great, feel like i'm 17 again.
    Aren't you secondary? I remember once you had posted bloodwork after doing a PCT with sustain, and your test was in the 600's or 700's when previously your levels were low-normal, no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post

    Status of 5aR should be checked.
    How do you test 5aR activity without trial and error?
    AFAIK, there is no test for 5aR deficiencies...unless I'm wrong?

    Typically speaking, males with 5aR deficiencies (medically acknowledgable deficiency) - have female characteristics and have almost no activity with this enzyme, which is a true deficiency. I wish there was a way to test for slight deficiency or issues, or to know what can cause them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Aren't you secondary? I remember once you had posted bloodwork after doing a PCT with sustain, and your test was in the 600's or 700's when previously your levels were low-normal, no?
    yeah, but it plummeted right back after. My current trt doc thinks i'm primary. Its possible he's wrong
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    I would look into it if I were you.. if you were able to raise your levels with the equivalent to a SERM (sustain alpha, etc) and then they dropped after, then it appears you are able to stimulate the boys
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    yeah, its definitely a possibility.
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    Anyone test your LH and FSH before going on TRT? If not, then it may be painful to find out now (you would have to stop TRT for a time).
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    miine were below bottom of scale
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    If they were below the bottom of the scale with low testosterone, that would suggest secondary. Your pituitary for some reason doesn't want to send out the signal. Ever have a head injury? Have you had an MRI to check for a tumor?
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    hmm no to either of those. Basically the doctor said it was a combination of my alcoholism + obesity that probably caused it
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    ive been reading on alot of forums like elitefitness, and they swear that once you start TRT you will feel good for a few years then once your natural testosterone gets shutdown, youll feel even worst then you first did, is this true? right not my testosterone reading is anywhere from 300-350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    How do you test 5aR activity without trial and error?
    AFAIK, there is no test for 5aR deficiencies...unless I'm wrong?

    Typically speaking, males with 5aR deficiencies (medically acknowledgable deficiency) - have female characteristics and have almost no activity with this enzyme, which is a true deficiency. I wish there was a way to test for slight deficiency or issues, or to know what can cause them.
    Blood analysis

    Dihydrotestosterone
    3a-Androstanediol Glucuronide

    24hr-urine Rhein analysis

    then figure out two ratios:

    Testosterone---->5bR----->Androsterone (AN)
    Testosterone---->5aR---->Etiocholanolone (ET) (ET/AN)--->(0.6---1.0---1.9)men


    Cortisol (F)---->5bR----->Tetrahydrocortisol (THF)
    Cortisol (F)---->5aR----->Allo-Tetrahydrocortisol (5a-THF) (5a-THF)/(THF)---->(0.60---0.8---1.3)men

    You may want to check my post #16 here

    http://mus clechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4433&page=2


    ........
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    Shutdown happens the first few days of exogonous hormone use, not years later. TRT done right will keep you feeling young.

    Addressing the original post, that range is achievable, and Its more risky for your health not doing trt when you are hypogonadal.
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    I'm somewhat skeptical of that, as I suspect that after detox the HPTA should recover if it was normal to begin with. I could be wrong, but I present this view as food for thought.

    Also, a head MRI may help shed some light on your situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    hmm no to either of those. Basically the doctor said it was a combination of my alcoholism + obesity that probably caused it
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    ok so is it worth for me to get on TRT? i feel like crap and my morning testosterone is aorund 300-350, im sure during the day it drops even more, i know im repeating the same question again, but im just so dam scared about the whole thing, on some forums guys are saying they were on it for a few years, then it stopped working a few years later because there natural testosterone diminshed, for example if someone was 300 ng/dl right , TRT + 300 ng/dl would be very good, but after a while whatever natural testosterone is left (lets say in my case 300ng/dl) that will be gone and it will only be the testosterone of TRT which same people argue that its not enough test, they say the reason people starting TRT feel very good or the first few months because whatever low testosterone you have left adds on to the TRT which makes it great, but once only the TRT works some people feel like **** and regret getting on it , am i confused somewhere with this? or is this how it works?
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    Quote Originally Posted by akiravp82 View Post
    ok so is it worth for me to get on TRT? i feel like crap and my morning testosterone is aorund 300-350, im sure during the day it drops even more, i know im repeating the same question again, but im just so dam scared about the whole thing, on some forums guys are saying they were on it for a few years, then it stopped working a few years later because there natural testosterone diminshed, for example if someone was 300 ng/dl right , TRT + 300 ng/dl would be very good, but after a while whatever natural testosterone is left (lets say in my case 300ng/dl) that will be gone and it will only be the testosterone of TRT which same people argue that its not enough test, they say the reason people starting TRT feel very good or the first few months because whatever low testosterone you have left adds on to the TRT which makes it great, but once only the TRT works some people feel like **** and regret getting on it , am i confused somewhere with this? or is this how it works?
    Testosterone has an important part to play in health.in relation to the heart low testosterone can increase cholestrol ;blood pressure can rise;abdominal fat can increase;estrogen levels increase;energy and strength decreases.

    bone loss can occur which leads to osteoporosis;arthritis is common in men with low levels of test .

    so theres a lot going for it.

    i dont understand why some feel like s**t on trt because you are only getting what the body cannot make.if it was produced naturally would those same people feel the same? i doubt it.

    receiving testosterone from an external source may cause anxiety unless you a bodybuilder and prepared to inject large doses of test they dont have that problem.

    loss of natural test will not cause the treatment to stop working .you will get shut down and what you have produced will cease over time.However you will be receiving or should be , enough to put you back in the reference range at least half way , i would have thought. The level of test will build up over time and the aim is to keep a constant level in your blood , but initially you may experience peaks and troughs.your doc should measure the levels shortly after your injection and just prior to your next ,This will enable him to get the right frequency for your injection.

    Natural testosterone is produced in the body in pulses throughout the day , the largest pulse being during sleep , the levels of natural test are always higher in the morning.,Unfortunately that cannot be reproduced when given externally.

    i would go for it and try to put your concerns behind you. Have you discussed these with your doctor?

    good luck
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    Quote Originally Posted by akiravp82 View Post
    ok so is it worth for me to get on TRT? i feel like crap and my morning testosterone is aorund 300-350, im sure during the day it drops even more, i know im repeating the same question again, but im just so dam scared about the whole thing, on some forums guys are saying they were on it for a few years, then it stopped working a few years later because there natural testosterone diminshed, for example if someone was 300 ng/dl right , TRT + 300 ng/dl would be very good, but after a while whatever natural testosterone is left (lets say in my case 300ng/dl) that will be gone and it will only be the testosterone of TRT which same people argue that its not enough test, they say the reason people starting TRT feel very good or the first few months because whatever low testosterone you have left adds on to the TRT which makes it great, but once only the TRT works some people feel like **** and regret getting on it , am i confused somewhere with this? or is this how it works?
    you still aren't getting it. you are at 300ng, when you start trt your natural production will work its way down to 0 before the end of the first 3 weeks. What a lot of the other forums are leaving out is that they are doing TRT at 3-4 times what they should be (dose wise) so its way outside the boundaries of human normal levels. So eventually the body tries to reach homeostasis, and they stop feeling like god on that much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    you still aren't getting it. you are at 300ng, when you start trt your natural production will work its way down to 0 before the end of the first 3 weeks. What a lot of the other forums are leaving out is that they are doing TRT at 3-4 times what they should be (dose wise) so its way outside the boundaries of human normal levels. So eventually the body tries to reach homeostasis, and they stop feeling like god on that much.


    ok i kinda got a better understanding of it now but still , if your natural test works its way down to 0 on trt can one on trt still get around 800 ng/dl on test cyp? and you also mention how those guys are taking 3-4 times what they should be, well since im only 21 through the years im probly going to get immuned to a certain dosage and will need to up the dosage, eventually ill hit a point where the doctors cant up the dosage anymore itll be at its max, therefor i'll hit a really big problem in life, sorry not trying to be negative with this whole thing, just that if im going to be starting trt at 21 for life i really need to understand what im getting myself into.
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    On TRT it's certainly possible to reach 800 ng/dl. It's all about dosing. Those that take too much go much higher than this, and that's not a good thing to do.

    One can come close to mimicking the body's natural pulsing of testosterone by applying testosterone gel once every morning. Some do this rather than injections. Concerns with this is to make sure that DHT doesn't get too high. If the % of T in the gel is low, in order to get enough T, a larger area of skin is needed. This is when more 5-ARD involvement occurs converting T to DHT.

    On the other hand, with a much higher % of T in the gel, there could be absorption issues. It may be hard to find the sweet spot, especially if hypothyroid, which also adversely affects absorption through the skin.

    Finally, with using gel one must be careful not to get it on women and children.
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    Akiravp82, you said your morning T is 300-350. Have you ever had a complete set of labs run? If you like, provide more information for us in order to help us give you more info. Such as: your height, weight, body mass, strength, overall health, diet, sleep patterns, smoking or drinking, ever cycle steroids, etc...

    It could be that getting in shape, eating right, sleeping right (sleep apnea will lower T), quitting smoking and heavy drinking, and getting proper amount of supplements could get your T at a level that makes you feel better. Then you wouldn't have all these worries about TRT.

    Have your serum zinc tested. Testicles need zinc big time to make T. Also, most people are deficient in vitamin D. This will seriously affect overall health. Get a serum test for 25-hydroxy, and if low take a good D3 supplement.
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    Also, ever had your thyroid and adrenals properly assessed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by akiravp82 View Post
    ok i kinda got a better understanding of it now but still , if your natural test works its way down to 0 on trt can one on trt still get around 800 ng/dl on test cyp? and you also mention how those guys are taking 3-4 times what they should be, well since im only 21 through the years im probly going to get immuned to a certain dosage and will need to up the dosage, eventually ill hit a point where the doctors cant up the dosage anymore itll be at its max, therefor i'll hit a really big problem in life, sorry not trying to be negative with this whole thing, just that if im going to be starting trt at 21 for life i really need to understand what im getting myself into.
    there is no such thing as immunity to a certain dose. you can get your test level to 5000 on test cyp, its all about how much you take. The only feedback mechanism the body has outside of stopping production is increasing SHBG, which can also be countered by OTC or prescription products.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philec48 View Post
    Also, ever had your thyroid and adrenals properly assessed?

    Havent looked into thyroids and adrenals yet, but im preety sure im going to need alot of work with that as well, dont drink,dont smoke, sleep is fine, very invovled in sports , diet is very good, never done steroids, no pitutary tumor, i failed a restart protocol, and then now im doing 500iu HCG EOD which is helping me a little bit but not to much, testicles are getting bigger, feel just slightly better, but still feel like crap, so im preety sure im primary, definitely need to get an extensive set of labs done soon, the ones i did was a whileeee ago, so i wont even bother to post them up because im preety sure alot has changed since then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    there is no such thing as immunity to a certain dose. you can get your test level to 5000 on test cyp, its all about how much you take. The only feedback mechanism the body has outside of stopping production is increasing SHBG, which can also be countered by OTC or prescription products.


    I see, ok all this is really making me feel better about TRT , do you pack good muscle on TRT? sex life everything feels fine?
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    i've put on better muscle since TRT than before and sex life is like I was 17
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    I was also wondering, right now since my natural production somewhat still works, my highest testosterone is early in the morning obviously, so if i were to get on TRT and once my natural testosterone is gone, theres not going to be anymore early morning highest testosterone, throughout the day morning or night its gonna be all the same is this correct?
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    Quote Originally Posted by akiravp82 View Post
    I was also wondering, right now since my natural production somewhat still works, my highest testosterone is early in the morning obviously, so if i were to get on TRT and once my natural testosterone is gone, theres not going to be anymore early morning highest testosterone, throughout the day morning or night its gonna be all the same is this correct?
    Its all about proper balance of all hormones with in the endocrine system along with proper lifestyle, nutrition, and proper mind set , and learning to stress manage ones life, removing toxins and rebalancing gut. Majority patients when properly examined have hidden emotional trama that has been lurking for many years. Proper counseling nota shrink can some times help them to over come these. Testosterone is highest in the morning then one can burn through it by mid day depending if they are a hypometabolizer or not. One needs to look at the person from all angles to establish where the imbalances may be. Dr treat the symptoms but rarely establish and treat the cause.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Also adding in HCG to a TRT plan means that some natural testosterone will still be made, and added to the TRT is this correct?
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    Quote Originally Posted by akiravp82 View Post
    Also adding in HCG to a TRT plan means that some natural testosterone will still be made, and added to the TRT is this correct?
    Adding in hcg will give you about 250-350 points back on your total testosterone level depending on how responsive you are. We have had people on the gels double levels just by adding 250 ius EOD.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    one thing i am worried i did is make myself from secondary to primary, the thing was i was using HCG without an AI, taking some high doses sometimes, and it caused some major aromtization, which i think might of screwed my testies for good , i hope not though, my testicles whent from being nice plumply and big, back to its small original size and function i started with, i am not taking HCG 250iu E0D with 500-600mg of DIM daily, what do you guys think?
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    I think you should be dealing with a doctor, instead of playing with it yourself
  

  
 

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