Very Low T ON Trt, Staring HCG, looking for insight

[monsterbox]

1. Began with low-T, tested regularly at low 300's, SHBG in the 20's, rock bottom Free-T, and estradiol in the teens.

2. Failed restart hpta protocol with 10weeks of clomid 25mg...only bumped me up to the 500's but raised my SHBG to the mid 30's resulting in the same low Free-T. Estradiol 8!

3. Began 50mg of Testosterone Gel 5%
4. Bumped up to 100mg 10%

5. RHEINS 24hr Urine Analysis shows rock bottom range T levels, e1, e2, e3 all very very low. DHT mid-range.

So whats the deal guys? I'm on 100mg of cream and I feel worse than ever now. I feel flushed in my face alot (which I thought was estrogen)...but apparently my levels are still rock bottom. My joints ache worse, I'm have tendon pains...


Doc bumped me today to 200mg and 100iu/hcg daily. Serum test in 1 week to determine whether to move to shots.

 

[monsterbox]

BUMP guys.

Its 11:00PM and my face is super hot right now...whats the deal? I don't get it, I thought E2 was too high, isn't that what causes flashes? Apparently not because my labs from last week show rock bottom E2.

 

[repmks]

have you spoke to him about injections? obviously you are not absorbing the gel. maybe apply it where it can be absorbed much more readily.

 

[monsterbox]

have you spoke to him about injections? obviously you are not absorbing the gel. maybe apply it where it can be absorbed much more readily.

yes, he believes I'm absoring the gel, but its not enough to get past the low-level. He thinks its just replacing my natural T with a low-level of exogeneous T. So he upped the dose again to compensate.

He said its entirely up to me to switch to injections if/when the next labs come back and my levels remain low.

 

[need4speed]

Where do you apply the gel?

 

[monsterbox]

my chest and shoulders, which are both extremely thin skin and ripped. No hair or fat...

 

[wildfox]

my chest and shoulders, which are both extremely thin skin and ripped. No hair or fat...

Are you trying to turn yourself into a woman?

Seriously, you are not supposed to apply that to breast tissue. Every man has estrogen receptors (like every woman) in their chest.

Inner arms and flanks, shoulders that fine.

Transdermals are prone to aromatization to estrogen.

Stop putting that stuff on your tits.

 

[repmks]

yes, he believes I'm absoring the gel, but its not enough to get past the low-level. He thinks its just replacing my natural T with a low-level of exogeneous T. So he upped the dose again to compensate.

He said its entirely up to me to switch to injections if/when the next labs come back and my levels remain low.

are you afraid of pins? if not i think that way is much better for hrt. even sq shots work fine.

 

[pmgamer18]

If you have a thyroid problem your skin will get thicker and gels and creams don't work simple as that. Go to shots start with 100mgs a week test again in 6 weeks is not up into the upper 1/3 of your labs range go up on the dose to 125mgs and Add in some HCG the 2 days each in between your T shots to keep your testis working.

 

[may19th2001]

Re:

Sometimes the gels work very well.
Where are your T levels at these days?
The gels provide a more consistant level such as a young mans from my understanding, it may also depend on how you metabolize it as well.

Mabye your Testosterone levels are too high you may want to check Estrogens next time the sensetive assay for men.

You also would want to make sure that you keep consistant with your schedule.

1. Began with low-T, tested regularly at low 300's, SHBG in the 20's, rock bottom Free-T, and estradiol in the teens.

2. Failed restart hpta protocol with 10weeks of clomid 25mg...only bumped me up to the 500's but raised my SHBG to the mid 30's resulting in the same low Free-T. Estradiol 8!

3. Began 50mg of Testosterone Gel 5%
4. Bumped up to 100mg 10%

5. RHEINS 24hr Urine Analysis shows rock bottom range T levels, e1, e2, e3 all very very low. DHT mid-range.

So whats the deal guys? I'm on 100mg of cream and I feel worse than ever now. I feel flushed in my face alot (which I thought was estrogen)...but apparently my levels are still rock bottom. My joints ache worse, I'm have tendon pains...


Doc bumped me today to 200mg and 100iu/hcg daily. Serum test in 1 week to determine whether to move to shots.

 

[may19th2001]

I would not apply it to the chest however I would ask your Dr mabye your forearms would be better.

my chest and shoulders, which are both extremely thin skin and ripped. No hair or fat...

 

[repmks]

I would not apply it to the chest however I would ask your Dr mabye your forearms would be better.

yea try the crease of the elbow and forearm. my skin is very thin there. maybe inner thighs but clothes will rubb it off easily.

 

[monsterbox]

I'm not rubbing the cream over my nipples...

I rub it on my upper chest near my neck, and then my shoulders.

I could put in on my inner forearms and crease of the elbow I guess....why does it really matter that much? Its not spot sensative. Its just the thinner the skin, the higher the DHT conversion.


I wish I could use injections, but the doctor won't let me until my labs come back low at 200mg cream.

My E levels are very low along with DHT and T. Therefore, its not a conversion problem.

 

[monsterbox]

someone please help me here, this is driving me crazy. I need to know what in the world to do while I wait on my labs.


I'm taking 20% cream in the morning + 100iu HCG/ED.

- 8:00am -cream+hcg.
-10:00am - kicked in and feel phenominal. Confident, very relaxed, random wood throughout the day!
-6:00pm - feels of euphoria wear off slightly, energy levels drop probably just end of day
-7:00pm - generally my workout time...feel great during workout and after
-10:00pm - still going good
-12:00am- (if i'm still awake) - face gets red and warm, upper chest gets warm, feel feverish
-2:00am - nausea, severe hot flashes/chills, woke up in a HUGE pool of sweat, and panic attacks. Feeling like the world is going to end, no sex drive, miserable, want to go in a corner and shut down. Force myself to sleep with extreme butterflys in my stomach

8:00am - feel slightly less terrrible from getting sleep...anxiously await my cream+hcg application...and the cycle repeats!


This has been going on everyday...somedays I manage to sleep through the anxiety/hotflashes but get insane dreams.

No nipple sensativity, no water retention or anything resembling E2. It simply feels like I have zero testosterone like when I had to go cold turkey off Superdrol without a SERM.

Is the cream just spiking and wearing off by night? Hot flashes are caused by a lack of a hormone and the body over-responding to temperature changes....so this could be the case?? I thought about taking some a-dex, but I'm thinking that would make it much worse. Instead I should be taking more cream at night?

I wish I was on cyp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kristopher]

Dude, that sounds crappy! Wish i could offer advice, ill limit myself to hoping you figure out what is the problem!

 

[pmgamer18]

Two things can be going on here your E2 levels go up at night they are the highest for every man at night. The other thing is your Cortisol levels might be to high at nigh. And this can drive down sugar levels making you feel like this. Eat some penut butter or string cheese before going to bed. Try to work out in the morning not later in the day.

I say this about working out it can by you have adrenal Fatigue and your workout drove your levels down to low.
Here is a cut and paste from this link.
http://livingnetwork.co.za/hormones/adrenal-fatigue/
Even Dr. John says this is a great link.

====================================
Adrenal insufficiency is linked to insomnia in two ways.

If your cortisol drops too low during the night your blood sugar drops too. Your body compensate by releasing adrenaline as an emergency measure to mobilize more sugar. This has the effect of waking you in an instant. This can be reduced by eating high protein snack before retiring e.g. sardines, nuts of high quality protein shake.
In early stages of adrenal fatigue cortisol levels tend to rise and if they are high at midnight they can energise you and keep you awake. Phosphorylated serine can be used to lower cortisol at these times due to its ACTH dampening effect.

 

[monsterbox]

well I see where you are coming from with the adrenal fatigue, however it seems I would have more symptoms throughout the day if that were the case.

I do not abuse stimulants. I use White Flood once or twice a week at the minimal dosage pre-workout. Thats all the caffeine/stimulation I ever consume. I rarely drink coffee, soft-drinks, etc..and I always try to get 8-9hrs of quality sleep.

Like I said, I've felt awesome throughout the day. Alert, relaxed, libido etc...this doesn't match adrenal fatigue symptoms.

Is it possible that theres a lack of T levels at night??? I mean early adrenal fatigue doesn't cause you to be soaking wet in sweat and feeling like you want to die in the middle of then night?? Seems like something that would happen if you drank red bull all day every day.

 

[pmgamer18]

No it has to do with your cortisol rithum see this link there are stages to this in the first stages your levels are to high. You feel ok all day but by night time they keep you up and lower your sugar. And lowers your DHEA levels in time. As this gets bad you need up with low levels allday long this is when you feel like crap allday.
http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI 1 .html

 

[Philec48]

Ask your doc if you can divide your cream to use half in the morning and half at night, or use cream morning only, and hcg at night.

 

[may19th2001]

Hello dude mabye your doses should be split if you are a hypometabolizer, you should talk with your Dr.
The gels mimic a young mans testosterone more than the inections do your hormones will move around more with the inections.

well I see where you are coming from with the adrenal fatigue, however it seems I would have more symptoms throughout the day if that were the case.

I do not abuse stimulants. I use White Flood once or twice a week at the minimal dosage pre-workout. Thats all the caffeine/stimulation I ever consume. I rarely drink coffee, soft-drinks, etc..and I always try to get 8-9hrs of quality sleep.

Like I said, I've felt awesome throughout the day. Alert, relaxed, libido etc...this doesn't match adrenal fatigue symptoms.

Is it possible that theres a lack of T levels at night??? I mean early adrenal fatigue doesn't cause you to be soaking wet in sweat and feeling like you want to die in the middle of then night?? Seems like something that would happen if you drank red bull all day every day.

 

[may19th2001]

I also agree on estrogen levels you should have them checked as well the
sensetive E2 would be best if your Dr will order an estrogen test at least for you they have male ranges on all of them.

well I see where you are coming from with the adrenal fatigue, however it seems I would have more symptoms throughout the day if that were the case.

I do not abuse stimulants. I use White Flood once or twice a week at the minimal dosage pre-workout. Thats all the caffeine/stimulation I ever consume. I rarely drink coffee, soft-drinks, etc..and I always try to get 8-9hrs of quality sleep.

Like I said, I've felt awesome throughout the day. Alert, relaxed, libido etc...this doesn't match adrenal fatigue symptoms.

Is it possible that theres a lack of T levels at night??? I mean early adrenal fatigue doesn't cause you to be soaking wet in sweat and feeling like you want to die in the middle of then night?? Seems like something that would happen if you drank red bull all day every day.

 

[monsterbox]

I always have ultra-sensative order, only reason I'm giving cream a chance if for the natural fluctuation....I am seeing the doctor your are refferring too................

 

[razzztazzz44]

have you tried HCG 500iu m/w/f for 30 days with 20mg of nolvadex for 90 days

 

[monsterbox]

THE GOOD:
Up from 185 to solid 190-195lbs. DB bench press is up 30lbs in 4 weeks! Horny during the day.
New Blood Test:
200mg T-Gel, Applied 1x/day in the Morning, HCG ED 100IU

Total T - 868
Estradiol - 23
Free T - don't remember but it was pretty high, and SHBG was great...

However,
Last night, I took 1 scoop of white flood, felt awesome. Workouted awesome...come home feel great....3hrs later I go to bed and go through the same panic attack/feel like crap/terrible/no sex drive/no appetite etc.....put the cream on in the morning and it helped out a ton until about noon when all the symptoms subsided.

Doc said I could have adrenal fatigue and will check thyroid (which I doubt, because I went an entire 2 weeks without stims and felt normal ED)
Doc said its most likely I'm hypermetabolising the TRT. So now...

I'm on 150mg Morning, and 150mg Night.....pretty much, the T could have been wearing off at night causing me to feel like crap.

What do you guys think? Adrenal disorder at night from training/stimulants or body going into shock from lack of hormones? At one point I thought it could simply be high cortisol causing hypoglycemia, so I forced myself to shovel down a bowl of oatmeal....it helped a tiny bit.



Is it normal to have a cocaine withdrawal from 1 scoop of whiteflood and a workout coupled with tons of protein and carbs before/during/after??? I mean I felt like I was better off dead last night!!!! Raised heartbeat 85BPM, Sweating, toss/turning, butterfly's from hell, confusion, hearing voices in my head....it was really nuts until I put the cream back on in the morning. After the cream kicked in, it slowly felt like a warming/calming sensation took over my body WTF! I went from forgetting who I was inside to being back on top of the world with confidence!

 

[Philec48]

How much caffeine is in that White Flood? You may be sensitive to stimulants, causing elevated heart rate. If you even suspect adrenal issues, it's not wise to do stims.

If you want the "pumps" just get some L-Arginine without all that other junk.

Also get checked to see if your magnesium is low. Ask your doc if you can take 400mg magnesium citrate a couple hours before going to bed. It has a calming effect on muscles, including the heart.

 

[PPB]

How much caffeine is in that White Flood? You may be sensitive to stimulants, causing elevated heart rate. If you even suspect adrenal issues, it's not wise to do stims.

If you want the "pumps" just get some L-Arginine without all that other junk.

Also get checked to see if your magnesium is low. Ask your doc if you can take 400mg magnesium citrate a couple hours before going to bed. It has a calming effect on muscles, including the heart.

This worked for me. Taking magnesium before bed at night stopped me from waking up with a racing heart, feeling like it was a heart attack. Also, my ferritin was low and that can exasperate that problem.

 

[monsterbox]

the amount of caffeine isn't too extreme....I believe it 300-400mg/per serving and I use 1/2 serving, so I'm getting around 200mg +/-

Its moreso mentality rather than physical side effects. My mood drops, I get extremely overly worried, negative thoughts, VERY confused, I start thinking the same thought in cycles...its like a mental negativity trap that leaves me feeling terrible, low sex drive, anxious etc....my entire body will feel super rediculously stressed out, like I just watched a plane crash. I can't think straight, i can't concentrate, and forget trying to sleep. This all onsets 1-2hrs after the stim is completely out of my system. Its like a super rediculous aderall crash...instead of getting sleepy I get stressed. The stim makes me feel amazing, and just as opposite when I come off.

Maybe the stim is allowing me to overtrain, my hormones then drop-off from hypermetabolising the TRT and I'm left in an overtrained state until morning.

Other than the above situation, I feel like a million bucks compared to pre-TRT. LOL I'm going to lay off the stims until I figure this out.

 

[Philec48]

And also laying off the over-training may help, too.

It may be hard to just veg-out if your used to working out a lot, so instead spend some workout days just doing relaxing stretches and deep breathing to see if that will help you feel better.

 

[monsterbox]

And also laying off the over-training may help, too.

It may be hard to just veg-out if your used to working out a lot, so instead spend some workout days just doing relaxing stretches and deep breathing to see if that will help you feel better.

I took 1.5 weeks off before monday's workout, the one that made me feel like crap afterwards.


Today I used some black tea (1/2cup of coffee amount of caffeine instead of White Flood). Good workout...applied 150mg of Gel afterwards and so far so good.

I guess I'll find out tonight when I go to sleep if things start getting screwy. As of now, its starting to seem like it must have been a hormonal issue caused by the cream running out. I used White Flood years ago and always tolerated it.

 

[may19th2001]

Sounds like you have come a long ways.
The gels are apparantley working for you.
You have a really good Dr..........
You are on a higher than average dose.

 

[CubbieBlue]

I would relax on the stimulant usage. That is what got me in my mess in the first place.

 

[jinxie]

the amount of caffeine isn't too extreme....I believe it 300-400mg/per serving and I use 1/2 serving, so I'm getting around 200mg +/-

Its moreso mentality rather than physical side effects. My mood drops, I get extremely overly worried, negative thoughts, VERY confused, I start thinking the same thought in cycles...its like a mental negativity trap that leaves me feeling terrible, low sex drive, anxious etc....my entire body will feel super rediculously stressed out, like I just watched a plane crash. I can't think straight, i can't concentrate, and forget trying to sleep. This all onsets 1-2hrs after the stim is completely out of my system. Its like a super rediculous aderall crash...instead of getting sleepy I get stressed. The stim makes me feel amazing, and just as opposite when I come off.

Maybe the stim is allowing me to overtrain, my hormones then drop-off from hypermetabolising the TRT and I'm left in an overtrained state until morning.

Other than the above situation, I feel like a million bucks compared to pre-TRT. LOL I'm going to lay off the stims until I figure this out.

Stop taking the stims if you are feeling anxious. I'd stop all liftings supplements. Your call.

You're 5'7", 195 and ripped, with T levels this low? Were you using gear? It sounds like your HPTA is ef'd up. I'd definitely get on shots regardless of what the labs show, given how you are feeling.

Hope it resolves. Sounds rough.

 

[monsterbox]

Stop taking the stims if you are feeling anxious. I'd stop all liftings supplements. Your call.

You're 5'7", 195 and ripped, with T levels this low? Were you using gear? It sounds like your HPTA is ef'd up. I'd definitely get on shots regardless of what the labs show, given how you are feeling.

Hope it resolves. Sounds rough.

Yea man, when I do not use stims I feel great. But for some reason I've developed some crazy withdrawl/hangover problems to stims.

I went 2 weeks without any caffeine and slept/felt fine. I started back up with a scoop of WF pre-workout the other day. Felt fine during my workout and afterwards. Then later at night I could feel my heartbeat through my ears/teeth and I felt terrible...same symptoms as above. I felt terrible until I applied my TRT gel in the morning. This leads me to believe its some sort of adrenal disorder. Testosterone lowers your cortisol levels and makes you relaxed.

I took the entire year off from hormonal supplements and even ran a 12 week clomid restart protocol. My T never raised above 500. Now that I'm on TRT my facial hair is developing and overall I feel way more confident and great then ever before. I know for sure that I've had low T all my life and its not correlated to messing up my HPTA or anything of that nature.

Like I said, the only problem I'm having is issues crashing from stims. So, for now I will stay away from all stims until I discover whats causing the intolerance.