Messed up kidneys?
- 10-20-2009, 08:43 PM
Messed up kidneys?
Creatinine 24 Hour Urine .............. 2.88 HIGH** (.63-2.50)
Creatinine Clearance .................... 143 HIGH** (85-125)
Creatinine (serum/blood)................ 1.40 HIGH** (.79 -1.33)
GFR........................... ..................... 57 LOW*** ( >60)
BUN........................... ................... 13 NORMAL (7-25)
BUN-to-Creatinine Ratio ................. 9.3 NORMAL (6-22)
Albumin....................... ................. 4.5 NORMAL (3.6-5.1)
Globulin...................... .................. 2.5 NORMAL (2.1-3.7)
A/G Ratio......................... ............ 1.8 NORMAL (1.0-2.1)
Urine was negative for Protein, Blood, Glucose, etc [Normal urinalysis]
Test results. As instructed, I avoided all meat/protein for 24 hours and ALL forms of exercise for 48 hours in an effort to provide accurate values.
- 10-20-2009, 08:45 PM
Im ~40 and sitting at about 10% b.fat and 200 pounds. I drink a gallon of water daily and eat as clean as can be. I follow a lower carb regimen.
No drugs except TRT 200 mg/week (self prescribed) with Arimidex for 3+ years.
Powerfull (GH-release at night)
Apple Cider Vinegar
Stims pre-w/o only
(NO CREATINE - I did for 5 years straight though up to about a year ago)
- 10-21-2009, 12:46 AM
10-23-2009, 03:59 PM
I too share your concern(Whacked)
I am glad I found this forum. I too have high creatinine levels in my blood. My doctor has performed several blood tests over the past year all showing elevated levels of creatinine. I have been using creatine on and off for about 5 years. After the first test showed 1.7 mg/dl. I discontinued creatine and went back for my second blood test 11 days later. The results came down to 1.56 mg/dl. I decided to use creatine sparingly over the course of 2 months, but during this time I was eating almost 2 grams of protein per lb of body weight(192lbs) and taking BCAAs as well as hitting the weights real hard. Then came the third test which showed my creatinine level to be 1.33 mg/dl. Almost to the 1.30 mg/dl mark for my age(36yrs) and other criteria. I came to the conclusion that the reason for my elevated creatinine level was due to the use of creatine. So I jumped back on creatine using the recomended dosages. My last test showed my levels at 1.56mg/dl. Obviously the reason why my levels jumped up is my creatine usage. My doctor on the other hand does not believe that creatine is the culprit and I beg to differ. He wants to refer me to Nephrologist, however I convinced him to give me 1 more blood test in the hopes of getting my creatinine level to an acceptable range.
Now comes the fun part. After doing alot of research I came to find out alot of interesting information, such as the possible side effects of creatine usage and an interesting tidbit on L arginine. Go to "how stuff works . com" and type in L arginine there you will see that L arginine also affects blodd creatine levels as well as you "BUN" levels.
I told you that here comes the fun part so here it is. I decided to totally detox myself. I received the idea from my brother and a friend who had cancer. The body is a awesome piece of machine capable of healing itself, and I plan to use it just to prove my doctor wrong. I have embarked on a ten day cleansing program. Today is the third day i have been on it. This cleansing program does not allow you to eat any solid food for 10 days. I thought it would be incredibly hard for me to do this, but if I have the willpower to constantly challenge myself in the gym, I certainly can do this. I am writing this blog in response to Whacked. I know how you must feel because I too am going thru it right now. Now I told you that my brother and his friend turned me on to this, and they gave me the recipe for free. However there is alot more info that I needed and I had to buy the book online. My brother lives in another state and I just could not wait to start cleaning my system out. I recommend you research "The master Cleanse Book" on-line. Like I said Whacked I share your anxiety,fears and feeling of restlesness. I don't want to give out the master cleanse diet out here in this forum for all to see, but I will give it to you for free. Like I said I am in the same boat as you and would love to turn you on to this potentially life changing event. For all the other people reading this blog I will keep you posted on my next blood test result. I plan on getting my blood checked after I complete this detox, as I hope to post normal Creatinine levels.
10-23-2009, 05:39 PM
for what its worth, my creatinine went up from 1.0 to 1.27 (barely over range) since I started taking 1tsp creatine/day. hope its not harmful in the long run.
10-23-2009, 06:17 PM
Well after doing alot of research during the past week or so, it's not supposed to do any damage at all. That's what I have been trying to tell my Doc. However, I would monitor my blood while on it. If your body can't handle the creatine then don't take it. Unfortunately some people can't handle it. I myself don't think I will ever take it again. I can't wait to do my next blood test to see how taking creatine and Bcaas out of my diet has affected my eGFR and Creatinine levels.
10-23-2009, 06:27 PM
Do what the doc says and watch that GFR. If the GFR is progressively declining, then I'm sure those high cre levels are something to be concerned about. Otherwise, it's probably not a big deal. If you've got a PPO, I'd suggest visiting a nephrologist. He may be able to put things into perspective with regards to bodybuilding/creatine supplementation. It may not be something to be concerned about because of those things.
10-23-2009, 09:04 PM
I am doing alot of research on the subject of creatine consumption since it affects me. Another reason is that I know my doctor is not. Doctors try to lump everyone in the same category and I believe that is the wrong way to try to diagnose people. I found some interesting info on the limitations of eGFR and creatinine clearance test from a Kidney web site for Doctors. It basically states the following:
STEADY STATE AND AVERAGE BODY COMPOSITION
Use of serum creatinine to estimate GFR relies on the individual being in steady state
and the ability to estimate the average rate of production of creatinine. Therefore, estimates
will be unreliable if the level of GFR is changing (such as acute kidney failure),
if muscle mass is unusually high or low (such as athletes or malnourished individuals,
respectively), or if dietary creatine intake is unusually high or low (such as individuals
consuming creatine supplements or vegetarians, respectively). Methods proposed for
estimating GFR in acute kidney failure189 were outside the scope of this review. Selected
patients may require clearance procedures to measure (rather than estimate) the level
10-26-2009, 09:10 PM
10-28-2009, 03:12 PM
Whacked, I decided to have more blood work done and my recent results showed that my levels have improved. I am pretty sure the last time I used creatine was about 12 days ago. I origanally wanted to wait a little longer, but decided to get the work done now. The first blood work, which was performed 2 days after stopping creatine showed my creatinine level @ 1.56, and my eGFR @ 50L. My next blood work was performed 11 days after the first blood work, and showed my levels @ 1.49 creatinine, and 53L eGFR. I believe that my levels will continue to improve as more time passes. I will have another lab performed on blood work in about 2 more weeks. I also made an appointment with my nephrologist upcoming in ten days. I will talk to him about creatine supplementation,BCAAs, and high protein diets associated with high creatinine levels. I was also wondering have you ever felt any type of pain on your back near your kidneys? I will post back with my nephrologist visit outcome after November 6th.
10-28-2009, 08:03 PM
Yes I have had some kidney pain like a twinging like once a week. :Last about 2 sewconds. Just kinda weird. YOU???
Also, I only get this when Im dehyrdrated though. I try to get in a gallon of water a day so not that often.
My Ultrasound was clean and my GFR was 57 so only borderline concerning BUT concerning nonetheless
With you, I will bet you cash money if you lose the creatine and MEAT for a week along with Amino Acid - then re-test - you'll improve!!! Don't forget meat has creatine in it as well!
Great news on your improvement man! I know how it feels when some good news comes along with this crap as it can be scary!!
Let's both keep an eye on this thread.
Bodybuilders always carry more muscle so the elevated creatinine (within REASON!!!) is """acceptable"" as long as the other numbers are "decent"".
Bun,Albumin, Globulin, A/G ration, BUN to Creatinine ratios.
Here's a good read to keep you sane: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi80.htm
10-28-2009, 09:29 PM
Yeah I have been getting a little pain on the right side of my back, which kind of shoots down to my upper right thigh. I might get it one day and then not feel it for 6 days in a row. I tweeked my back doing heavy squating and attributed the sharp pain to perhaps something muscular? I will the my doctor on the 6th. As far as the Creatinine and eGFR I knew that they would get closer to the acceptable ranges. I just need to wait a couple more weeks to take another test. I've found in my research that it takes 4 to 6 weeks in order for your normal levels to come back. I will definately be looking at this thread, and thanks for the link.
10-29-2009, 07:30 AM
Make sure your Doc rules out a kidney stone too. Ultrasounds miss the small ones, you would need a CT scan for more accurate assessment.
Muscular or DISC involvement - yeah, be sure to RULE OUT the kidneys being the culprit.
Cpould you please provide a link for this statement? Thanks
""" I've found in my research that it takes 4 to 6 weeks in order for your normal levels to come back"""
10-29-2009, 01:41 PM
You will have to go thru the page as i could not find exactly which Dr. gave the answer to the study. Anyhow, it is a good place to look for info on kidney function.
go to www . doctorslounge.com /forums/ viewforum. php?f= 47
type it in all together. I can't post links just yet.
11-08-2009, 10:09 PM
Had my appointment with my Nephrologist who has over 15 years experience. He informed me on the effect of creatinine levels in the body when Creatine,exercise, and a high protein diet are incorporated. He stated the all that and above average body mass do not allow for accurate eGFR levels when the creatinine serum formula is used for bodybuilders. Just to be safe I will be doing a 24 hour urine creatinine clearance. This test is a better indicator when trying to determine kidney function for bodybuilders. I will probably wait about another week in order for my body to adjust to normal levels. The doc said it takes time for the body to get back to normal levels. Since I have not used creatine for about 1 month I hope to have close to normal levels soon.
11-09-2009, 09:48 AM
11-11-2009, 08:01 PM
Great news my man. I have some good and similar news.
My Nephrologist (appointment yesterday) said pretty much all the the same, essentially, no worries d/t muscle mass, diet etc....He also told me to run a 24-hour Clearance test AGAIN only to get another test run to compare values but he is not worried.
JTMarlin: Good stuff and thank you for posting as me and 4restgump were wigging!!!
11-11-2009, 08:04 PM
11-27-2009, 02:05 PM
Had my Nephro appointment Wed. The 24 urine and serum lab results showed all my levels were back to normal. Everything fell back within acceptable ranges after discontinuing creatine and taking a little break from my workouts. It's back to hardcore trainning for me. Thank God!!!!
11-28-2009, 07:24 PM
12-06-2009, 07:58 PM
I have been a bodybuilder since age 30. Recently I went on a high-pro diet (4 months now) and "poof", my BUN and serum creatinine went up (BUN 45, sCr 1.5) and my eGFR is low at 55. I intake about 2g/lb of protein at 217 lb body weight (around 400 grams). It may be I am overloading in protein causing these blood values to change like this. Whacked & 4restgump, you guys have been discussing this. Add me to the discussion. I am going to stop taking whey shakes 3X/day and just stick with a protein diet and see what we get. I'll keep you posted. Stats: 51 years old, 217#, 6-0, pre-contest, currently take test decanoate and T3.
12-07-2009, 08:42 AM
To be honest, 55 GFR for someone who is 51 is pretty "ok". The older someone gets, the lower GFR is as it naturally declines with age.
In addition to that, your creatinine levels will definitely go down with your (wise) proposed decrease in protein intake.
400 grams/day is a LOT. Some people's kidneys simply cannot handle that stress (some can). I would guess the T3 and Dca are playing a role in your values as well.
To establish true numbers, you would need to re-take these tests when OFF gear, and with a few days break from both all protein and work outs as they both influence BUN and Serum Creatinine levels.
IMHO, you have little to worry about with respect to your GRF (as that can also be influenced by high protein intake) and little to nothing to worry about with respect to the Creatinine levels as that is a byproduct of protein metabolism and the muscle mass you're carrying. The BUN is a little high for my liking. Perhaps diligently monitor both just to be safe.
My suggestion: I'd run the following as well to ensure those BUN values are not telling you "something".
Creatinine 24 Hour Urine, Creatinine Clearance, BUN-to-Creatinine Ratio, Albumin, Globulin, A/G Ratio , and a Urinalysis (Test for Protein, Blood, Glucose)
12-07-2009, 09:51 AM
Thanks, bro. I have been pretty concerned with the latest blood work results. I have been taking gear for upwards of six years due to chronic testosterone deficiency, so without it, I'm in pretty crappy shape. However, I never encountered the elevated BUN & sCr and low eGFR until I got on the heavy protein loading. Of course, estimated GFR is derived directly from the serum creatinine level and subject age, so naturally, the higher one's sCr, the lower one's eGFR. Starting this am, I dropped the whey protein to lower my protein intake and it should balance out 150g lower (somewhere around 250g/day or about 1.15g/lb body wt).
I have studied available literature on effects of T3 on GFR and according to all I have read, there is no correlation between the two. The gear might explain it, but as I mentioned, I've been cycling it for six years with no apparent kidney involvement at all. Only thing I can attribute it to is the high protein diet.
It was interesting to read how you dropped off training and dropped creatine loading and everything went back to normal. I would expect that and it just fortifies the fact that we, as weight trainers, have blood chemistry unique to our athletic training like few others have.
I'll keep you posted and thanks again for your observations!
12-07-2009, 08:42 PM
12-13-2009, 08:17 PM
I will let you know what I find in my studies. You know, there are a lot of people on HRT (hormone replacement therapy) who are on stuff for the long-term. So, do they have the same problem? I don't know but I can't believe that they would. I propose to cut my dosage to 125 mg/wk for 6 weeks and see what the tests say then. I'll let you know.
12-17-2009, 07:37 PM
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