Secretropin trial

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    Secretropin trial


    I am a 41 yo male physician who has noticed a gradual degredation in physical strength, gain in weight, and overall lowering of feelings of wellness. I have MOST noticably noted a decline in my ability to recover from exercise in a manner which is similar to even just a few years ago. In my 20's, I could work out hard for 1 1/2 -2 hours a day 6 days a week, twice a week for each body part. I never took anything other than a multivitamin, and had a very good physique as well as physical ability.

    Now as time passed, life got in the way and I noticed that my intiative to get to the gym dwindled then halted about 4 years ago. I hit 40 last fall, and realized I was NOT doing myself any favors, therefore, I returned to the gym with a more plausible goal in mind. I wanted to maximize a realistic schedule which would allow me to be in and out of the gym in an hour. My schedule, between work and my family, precludes any 'normal' gym time, so I am at the gym at 5am morning, since the only time I actually can schedule for myself, is when the rest of the world is sleeping. This has worked out very well, in that I have grown to very much enjoy the schedule and the exercise.

    However, my old routine of twice a week per body part has not been achievable. I found that my recovery, even after several months of lifting, did not allow for a twice a week schedule. THIS was my first clue, that I wasn't as young as I used to be. So I switched to a once a week rotation for each body part, which allowed full recovery in between workouts of specific body parts. I THEN noticed that my strength was not building the way it used to, and although I was physically changing, putting on lean mass and loosing fat, I still was feeling relatively 'weak' even to the point that my trainer commented on the fact that I 'looked stronger than I seemed to be'. THIS was clue number two that I wasn't as young as I used to be. And finally, I injured my left elbow while lifting. It was quite minor, really nothing more than a brachiradialis strain along with lateral epicondylitis, however, despite splinting, massage, and NSAIDS, I couldn't shake it. I didn't work back with a bent elbow for over a month, and until the last two weeks, I wasn't able to do anything which required flexion of my left elbow during a workout. THIS was hint number 3.

    I began wondering whether I could have the early effects of diminishing hormonal levels. While in medical school and residency, I always wondered why we didn't give 'steroids' to old people to keep their muscle mass more normalized. And now that I am stepping up to the door of 'age' I have been looking more and more into the thought of what I will be doing for both myself, and my family, including my parents as I watch the changes of aging occuring in us all.

    So, I spent quite some time looking into information such as Cenegenics, Crisler, etc etc etc... too numerous to mention, trying to determine the efficacy of what they were touting as Anti Aging Medicine.

    I have completed blood work, and per the blood work, I am the EPITOME of perfect health. I am flat middle on almost everything hormonal and LOW on all the bad that medicine typically fights on a daily basis. But I STILL am not feeling as thought I am 'normalized' for myself and my basal hormonal level. While there is nothing wrong with my sex drive or prowess, I do notice that certain aspects of sex have diminished somewhat. I note that I am undergoing a hairline race to the top of my head... currently I think it is pretty neck and neck, but the left side might pull ahead with a different haircut. And I have noticed that I have developed a spare tire EXTERNAL to my musculature. I have normal visceral fat content.

    NOW... given that I am a physician, and have access to imaging that normally would not be available to the masses without great cost, I have completed CT scans of my body from Chest to Knees. Everything is perfect, except for the external padding, protecting my frame. I am 6'2" and weight 230 almost on the nose. Checking Body composition via Electronic Impedence, puts me at 24.9% body fat. By Bod Pod, 31%, and via DEXA at 38.7%. Just to let you know... DEXA scanning is the most accurate, however, should not be compared directly to the current thoughts about 'normal/abnormal' given the detail and degree of accuracy compared to the weakness of the technology used in the formation of those 'normal/abnormal' values.

    Current labs:
    Chol Tot 119
    Trig 59
    HDL 52
    LDL 55

    LFTs Middle of normal

    PSA 0.53 (< 2.5)

    IGF-1 188 (91-246)
    IGFBP-3 3.5 (3.3-6.7)
    DHEA 190 (45-345)
    Test, tot 557 (250-1100)
    Test, Free 94 (35-155)
    DHT 44 (25-75)

    Estradiol us 22 (<29)
    Uring GH, 24H (P)

    Having thought long and hard about how to begin addressing my 'possible/probable' decline in hormonal stability. I wish that I had forsight and checked baseline levels at age 25 and at 5 year intervals thereafter, however, that is too much hindsight and not enough knowledge at the time. So I am stuck trying to determine whether my hormonal levels are truly decreased... or whether I am just a wimp.

    I have chosen to begin with Secretropin as a single agent. I will do monthly checks on IGF-1, IGFBP-3, DHEA, Test/fr/DHT, and GH(24h/u) and post my results here over the next few months. I will not be adding anything to the regimen for at least 2 months, regardless, and will only discontinue if there are untoward side effects, also which I will post here.

    My goals are less to 'normalize or improve' my lab results and MORE towards improving my physical makeup.

    Goal 1: REDUCE Bodyfat comp to between 15-20%
    Goal 2: Maintain or increase lean body mass
    Goal 3: Improve overall sense of well being and fitness
    Goal 4: Improve recovery/healing times
    Goal 5: Not lose all my hair in the process.

    I will let you know...

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    It might be, that this post is better served on the Anti Aging forum rather than on this forum. If a moderator believes this to be true, please move it over.
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    What will your dosing protocol be? Curious.
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    I have decided that since the recommendation is to increase the evening dose for anyone over 200 lbs, I will do as directed. I will take 2 sprays in the AM and 6 sprays before bedtime. Which is as directed. I will only change it if my initial labs have diminished rather than increased. After evaluation of the data which has thus far been published, those who were NOT going to respond or have detrimental response via decrease in values, will do so in the first month. If I have not decreased, I will stick with the regimen and evaluate lab values on a monthly basis. I have a long time to live, so I am in no hurry to maximize at the detriment of my health or the best treatment. If, as I proceed and am seeing results, I might begin adjusting doses incrimentally to determine whether I have maximized my hormonal status. The data thus far has only been looking at IGF-1 and IGFBP-1, which is a questionable value for following. However, if I am doing well, I will make small adjustments, following all lab values. There is thought that 24hr Urine GH would be enough, however, truthfully, it was a bigger pain doing the urine test than running in and them taking some blood. However, I will watch how things turn out.

    Truthfully, I am NOT impressed with the data nor the information, it is amateurish at best. However, I know that sometimes things are hit upon and ignored, simply because of this, therefore, I am wiliing to try it, given the relatively minimal downside.

    I know that DHEA has been stated to be an integral part of response, so if I have little response, I might begin DHEA supplementation without changes to Secretropin dosing. I will also carefully observe Test... which is easily supplemented if required.

    I am looking for a long term life improver. I know that I could pin CJC and GHRPs/GHRHs and it appears get a significant effect, however, I don't feel like sticking myself for 40 more years if I don't have to. It might come to that at some point, but if I can simply maintain orally, I would prefer that route.
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    Well, if nothing else, you should get a good nites sleep.
    Pinning every day can become a bit tedious, but it can be an equitable trade-off if you get results.
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    I have seen the clinical results from the Secretropin product, as I am very close to Dr. Mark Gordon, and can tell you it works, and works very well.

    You need a IGFBP-3 to properly assess GH function, and probably a Fasting Insulin if your diet is tight. Low FI's result in a disjoint between GH and IGF-1 as reliable biomarker (as it does for elevated estrogen). The 24 hour urine GH collection then becomes very important, as you have noted, but there is only one such assay available today which is valid, made in Belgium.

    Traditional GH stimulation tests are now understood by true experts as invalid. The reliable 24hr urine GH assay ends all speculation, as it provides Area Under the Curve (AUC) for daily GH output.

    Yes, DHEA is IMPO a very important player in GH production. This is especially poignant in light of the fact it is lowered by TRT, as we induce secondary hypogonadism while treating primary hypogonadism. 25mg BID usually suffices, any more can convert to E. If you cannot get levels up properly, a troche will, and increases DHEA/DHEA-S at the same time.

    IGFBP-1 is looking very interesting for assessing DMII, eh?

    I hope this helps.
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    I have added a multi-vitamin as well as Zinc Citrate (30mg) for total 45mg zinc. This is in order to help diminish Estrogen conversion given the hopeful increases to come.

    I am beginning the protocol 10/01.

    I am now determining the effecacy of hairloss treatments. Dr. Crisler's Spiro/Keto is intriguing, however, I cannot find anything which shows any correlative effect in male pattern baldness with any spiro concoction.

    Does anyone know of any PUBLISHED study which uses topical Spiro for hairloss in men?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadnatron View Post
    I have added a multi-vitamin as well as Zinc Citrate (30mg) for total 45mg zinc. This is in order to help diminish Estrogen conversion given the hopeful increases to come.

    I am beginning the protocol 10/01.

    I am now determining the effecacy of hairloss treatments. Dr. Crisler's Spiro/Keto is intriguing, however, I cannot find anything which shows any correlative effect in male pattern baldness with any spiro concoction.

    Does anyone know of any PUBLISHED study which uses topical Spiro for hairloss in men?
    In a clinical setting it has been found that properly correcting other hormonal imbalances such as adrenals, thyroid, testosterone, estrodial can be the first step in obtaining proper GH levels. Once also has to have the proper building blocks and minerals as well in order for hormones to interact at the receptors level. To much zinc can actually lower gh levels, dumping copper which is esential for igf-1 function.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadnatron View Post
    I have added a multi-vitamin as well as Zinc Citrate (30mg) for total 45mg zinc. This is in order to help diminish Estrogen conversion given the hopeful increases to come.

    I am beginning the protocol 10/01.

    I am now determining the effecacy of hairloss treatments. Dr. Crisler's Spiro/Keto is intriguing, however, I cannot find anything which shows any correlative effect in male pattern baldness with any spiro concoction.

    Does anyone know of any PUBLISHED study which uses topical Spiro for hairloss in men?
    Sprinolactone blocks DHT receptors. This was discovered when some patients using it as a potassium-sparing diuretic (it's intended use) developed gynocomastia.

    It seems to work very well for most, especially when mixed into a Rx-strength ketoconozole. Incorporating a liposomal delivery system that speeds it to the hair root enhances performance. Have your friendly compounding pharmacy make some up for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    In a clinical setting it has been found that properly correcting other hormonal imbalances such as adrenals, thyroid, testosterone, estrodial can be the first step in obtaining proper GH levels. Once also has to have the proper building blocks and minerals as well in order for hormones to interact at the receptors level. To much zinc can actually lower gh levels, dumping copper which is esential for igf-1 function.
    Dr. Gordon has successfully used 160mg zinc citrate, in divided doses, to control estrogen during appropriate TRT.

    Just take 2mg of copper per 50mg of zinc at the same time. This combats the competitive inhibition of otherwise overwhelming +2 charge of the zinc with respect to copper metabolism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Dr. Gordon has successfully used 160mg zinc citrate, in divided doses, to control estrogen during appropriate TRT.

    Just take 2mg of copper per 50mg of zinc at the same time. This combats the competitive inhibition of otherwise overwhelming +2 charge of the zinc.
    I prefer to split the dosage of zinc and copper and take them seperately at different times. That is just my experience and others have as well had low copper serum from taking them same time.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    I prefer to split the dosage of zinc and copper and take them seperately at different times. That is just my experience and others have as well had low copper serum from taking them same time.
    That's not how it works. Think: it's a competitive situation.

    There are many zinc/copper combination supplements out there.

    And our bodies evolved to absorb multiple nutrients simultaneously.

    If you have actual case studies to prove your point, kindly provide same. But they would fly in the face of true science.

    If they "had low copper from taking them at the same time" then perhaps they had dug themselves into such a hole previously with respect to Cu levels they had not yet restored same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    In a clinical setting it has been found that properly correcting other hormonal imbalances such as adrenals, thyroid, testosterone, estrodial can be the first step in obtaining proper GH levels. Once also has to have the proper building blocks and minerals as well in order for hormones to interact at the receptors level. To much zinc can actually lower gh levels, dumping copper which is esential for igf-1 function.
    I haven't heard this before. Can you please provide a reference?

    Dr. Gordon has not noticed this, and he has run labs, and treated with with same, hundreds of adult males and females.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I haven't heard this before. Can you please provide a reference?

    Dr. Gordon has not noticed this, and he has run labs, and treated with with same, hundreds of adult males and females.
    I have seen several people walk through the door with low ceruloplasmin and low copper levels. They take a multivitamin with copper 2mgs copper and still ended up deficient. The one factor could be is the multivitamin they are taking is crappy and not absorbing and when they take zinc at night time its causing defieincy due to the low bioavailability of the copper.
    This would verify about digging them selves a hole because of the lack of absorption from their multivitamin. If a person takes a centrum and then 50 mgs of zinc at bed time then that is how the hole is dugg. Citrate has an absorption rate of about 20-30% so at 160 mgs of zinc citrate one would be getting between 35-55 mgs of elemental zinc. The zinc i use with great success is 50 mgs of zinc piclolate works wonders. It has something to do with bypassing the mechanism of absorption of other brands of zinc. I have used 100 mgs of zinc all forms for 6 months no absorption verified through testing serum. It was not untill after 3 months of zinc picolate that my serums started to rise.

    Dr john IYO if a person has blasted them self with zinc for a long time with out copper, how long in clincal setting have you seen this imbalance of copper take to correct it self.

    Just had a guy with low copper levels and ceruloplasmin and asked how much zinc he took just 50 mgs a night before bed time. I suggested that according to studies both in aids patients and from LEF that balancing out 2-3 mgs of copper in an absorbable form should resolve the issue. He will be retested in 2 months to verify levels.

    Pmgamer has this problem for longest time and he was taking zinc 50 mgs/ 2mgs together. If he has been low copper for long time this could have potentially lead to heart complications. I had him check his ceruloplamsmin and copper levels both were deficient. After suppelmenting them seperately his levels began to rise. This is just one of the many that I have came across as well as my self. I tried to correct this with 30 mgs of zinc with 5 mgs of copper for 2 months copper serums did not budge. As one thing i have learned is to back up claims with scientific evidence.

    Inadequate Copper Intake Reduces Serum Insulin-Like Growth Factor-I and Bone Strength in Growing Rats Fed Graded Amounts of Copper and Zinc -- Roughead and Lukaski 133 (2): 442 -- Journal of Nutrition

    This study examined the effects of graded intakes of zinc (Zn) and copper (Cu) on serum insulin-like growth-factor-I (IGF-I) concentration and bone quality in growing rats. Using a 3 x 4 factorial design, weanling male Sprague-Dawley rats were randomly assigned to 12 groups (n = 7 per group) and were fed one of nine modified AIN-93G basal diets with varying amounts of Cu (0.3, 3 and 10 g/g) and Zn (5, 15 and 45 g/g) for 6 wk. A group of rats was pair-fed to each low Zn group. Although dietary Zn mainly influenced body weights (P < 0.0001), dietary Cu was the main determinant of most of the variables related to bone quality. Low Cu intake reduced serum IGF-I[/SIZE] and femur breaking force and ultimate stress (by 27, 14 and 7%, respectively; P < 0.05) and increased bone IGF-I concentration (by 62%; P < 0.0001). Low Cu intake also increased femur nitrogen, hydroxyproline, hexosamine and calcium (Ca) concentrations of long bones (P < 0.05). Lumbar vertebrae dry weight and density were the lowest in the rats fed the low Cu diets (P < 0.001) and were higher in the rats fed high amounts of both Cu and Zn (P < 0.01). In summary, growing rats fed low and marginal Cu had lower serum IGF-I than those fed high dietary Cu. Bone strength was also reduced with low dietary Cu, despite compensatory changes in the bone matrix. In the presence of graded intakes of Cu, the effects of low dietary Zn were more pronounced on the spinal bones than the long bones.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadnatron View Post
    I have decided that since the recommendation is to increase the evening dose for anyone over 200 lbs, I will do as directed. I will take 2 sprays in the AM and 6 sprays before bedtime. Which is as directed. I will only change it if my initial labs have diminished rather than increased. After evaluation of the data which has thus far been published, those who were NOT going to respond or have detrimental response via decrease in values, will do so in the first month. If I have not decreased, I will stick with the regimen and evaluate lab values on a monthly basis. I have a long time to live, so I am in no hurry to maximize at the detriment of my health or the best treatment. If, as I proceed and am seeing results, I might begin adjusting doses incrimentally to determine whether I have maximized my hormonal status. The data thus far has only been looking at IGF-1 and IGFBP-1, which is a questionable value for following. However, if I am doing well, I will make small adjustments, following all lab values. There is thought that 24hr Urine GH would be enough, however, truthfully, it was a bigger pain doing the urine test than running in and them taking some blood. However, I will watch how things turn out.

    Truthfully, I am NOT impressed with the data nor the information, it is amateurish at best. However, I know that sometimes things are hit upon and ignored, simply because of this, therefore, I am wiliing to try it, given the relatively minimal downside.

    I know that DHEA has been stated to be an integral part of response, so if I have little response, I might begin DHEA supplementation without changes to Secretropin dosing. I will also carefully observe Test... which is easily supplemented if required.

    I am looking for a long term life improver. I know that I could pin CJC and GHRPs/GHRHs and it appears get a significant effect, however, I don't feel like sticking myself for 40 more years if I don't have to. It might come to that at some point, but if I can simply maintain orally, I would prefer that route.
    I transitioned to Secretropin from HGH in July, and use 4 spays at night and 2 in the morning. We are similar in size. I prefer to start with less and add more if needed. I haven't drawn blood yet, but can feel the difference. I don't think I'll be needing a higher dose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I transitioned to Secretropin from HGH in July, and use 4 spays at night and 2 in the morning. We are similar in size. I prefer to start with less and add more if needed. I haven't drawn blood yet, but can feel the difference. I don't think I'll be needing a higher dose.
    Looking over the data such extraneous factors of diet, nutrtient aspects were not stated. NO follows on thyroid, testosterone or e2 were also concluded. It is a known fact that low e2 can cause low igf-1, so if one has low e2 and brings e2 up I have seen igf-1 levels double in matter of 2 months with no other variables added while even on TRT for 5 years with no deviations. i have been off adex for over 12 weeks and feeling pretty good. Now looking back I finally found that adex even while keeping my levels in the phyisological range of e2 my lipids were altered as well as my igf-1 levels. It will be interesting to see just how the next test shows on lipid and igf-1 levels being off it for 3 months.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    I have seen several people walk through the door with low ceruloplasmin and low copper levels. They take a multivitamin with copper 2mgs copper and still ended up deficient. The one factor could be is the multivitamin they are taking is crappy and not absorbing and when they take zinc at night time its causing defieincy due to the low bioavailability of the copper.
    This would verify about digging them selves a hole because of the lack of absorption from their multivitamin. If a person takes a centrum and then 50 mgs of zinc at bed time then that is how the hole is dugg. Citrate has an absorption rate of about 20-30% so at 160 mgs of zinc citrate one would be getting between 35-55 mgs of elemental zinc. The zinc i use with great success is 50 mgs of zinc piclolate works wonders. It has something to do with bypassing the mechanism of absorption of other brands of zinc. I have used 100 mgs of zinc all forms for 6 months no absorption verified through testing serum. It was not untill after 3 months of zinc picolate that my serums started to rise.

    Dr john IYO if a person has blasted them self with zinc for a long time with out copper, how long in clincal setting have you seen this imbalance of copper take to correct it self.

    Just had a guy with low copper levels and ceruloplasmin and asked how much zinc he took just 50 mgs a night before bed time. I suggested that according to studies both in aids patients and from LEF that balancing out 2-3 mgs of copper in an absorbable form should resolve the issue. He will be retested in 2 months to verify levels.

    Pmgamer has this problem for longest time and he was taking zinc 50 mgs/ 2mgs together. If he has been low copper for long time this could have potentially lead to heart complications. I had him check his ceruloplamsmin and copper levels both were deficient. After suppelmenting them seperately his levels began to rise. This is just one of the many that I have came across as well as my self. I tried to correct this with 30 mgs of zinc with 5 mgs of copper for 2 months copper serums did not budge. As one thing i have learned is to back up claims with scientific evidence.

    Inadequate Copper Intake Reduces Serum Insulin-Like Growth Factor-I and Bone Strength in Growing Rats Fed Graded Amounts of Copper and Zinc -- Roughead and Lukaski 133 (2): 442 -- Journal of Nutrition

    This study examined the effects of graded intakes of zinc (Zn) and copper (Cu) on serum insulin-like growth-factor-I (IGF-I) concentration and bone quality in growing rats. Using a 3 x 4 factorial design, weanling male Sprague-Dawley rats were randomly assigned to 12 groups (n = 7 per group) and were fed one of nine modified AIN-93G basal diets with varying amounts of Cu (0.3, 3 and 10 g/g) and Zn (5, 15 and 45 g/g) for 6 wk. A group of rats was pair-fed to each low Zn group. Although dietary Zn mainly influenced body weights (P < 0.0001), dietary Cu was the main determinant of most of the variables related to bone quality. Low Cu intake reduced serum IGF-I[/SIZE] and femur breaking force and ultimate stress (by 27, 14 and 7%, respectively; P < 0.05) and increased bone IGF-I concentration (by 62%; P < 0.0001). Low Cu intake also increased femur nitrogen, hydroxyproline, hexosamine and calcium (Ca) concentrations of long bones (P < 0.05). Lumbar vertebrae dry weight and density were the lowest in the rats fed the low Cu diets (P < 0.001) and were higher in the rats fed high amounts of both Cu and Zn (P < 0.01). In summary, growing rats fed low and marginal Cu had lower serum IGF-I than those fed high dietary Cu. Bone strength was also reduced with low dietary Cu, despite compensatory changes in the bone matrix. In the presence of graded intakes of Cu, the effects of low dietary Zn were more pronounced on the spinal bones than the long bones.
    Do you happen to know if actual GH production was affected, or just its accepted biomarker, IGF-1?

    Let's keep in mind these are genetically selected rats, not adult, athletic, otherwise healthy adult males.

    As far as a few cases studies go, same are not sufficient to deny simple facts of physiology. And Phil has some very difficult and unusual situatios going on; this is why he has unfortunately been such a challenging case. As I always remind myself, NOTHING will ever surprise me again with respect to hormones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Looking over the data such extraneous factors of diet, nutrtient aspects were not stated. NO follows on thyroid, testosterone or e2 were also concluded. It is a known fact that low e2 can cause low igf-1, so if one has low e2 and brings e2 up I have seen igf-1 levels double in matter of 2 months with no other variables added while even on TRT for 5 years with no deviations. i have been off adex for over 12 weeks and feeling pretty good. Now looking back I finally found that adex even while keeping my levels in the phyisological range of e2 my lipids were altered as well as my igf-1 levels. It will be interesting to see just how the next test shows on lipid and igf-1 levels being off it for 3 months.
    Right! The same goes for insulin.

    But high levels also drive IGF-1 production down as well.

    It's a bell curve world, eh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I transitioned to Secretropin from HGH in July, and use 4 spays at night and 2 in the morning. We are similar in size. I prefer to start with less and add more if needed. I haven't drawn blood yet, but can feel the difference. I don't think I'll be needing a higher dose.
    That's good to hear.

    It is true secretogogues powerfully downregulate their own receptors. And I am seeing--by patient subjective report and laboratory assay, "more is not always better".

    I haven't used the Secretropin product yet (I happily spend my time tinkering with GHRP-6), but am convinced by what I have seen and heard it works well, indeed.
  20. The horror
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    That's good to hear.

    It is true secretogogues powerfully downregulate their own receptors. And I am seeing--by patient subjective report and laboratory assay, "more is not always better".

    I haven't used the Secretropin product yet (I happily spend my time tinkering with GHRP-6), but am convinced by what I have seen and heard it works well, indeed.
    I'll post some numbers when I have them.
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    Awsome thread!!

    Dr. John, Matrix-
    Does supplementing zinc affect any other minerals than copper?
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I transitioned to Secretropin from HGH in July, and use 4 spays at night and 2 in the morning. We are similar in size. I prefer to start with less and add more if needed. I haven't drawn blood yet, but can feel the difference. I don't think I'll be needing a higher dose.
    I gotta admit... I felt more like I was getting ready for a date when I sprayed Secretropin under my tongue, than felt like I was doing anything worthwhile for my body. We will see...

    I also would like to use as little as possible. But given the relative lack of information, I chose to go with the recommendation given my weight. Depending on the first months labs, I will judge whether a change is necessary. There are so many factors to take into account, that I am glad my body typically likes a homeostasis. I am certainly on the steep part of the curve at this point, so I am trying to stick with what is 'known' and will vary when I actually 'know' something about me.

    The good thing for me is that I have access to resources which most people do not have, which will allow me to more closely monitor my outcome. I will keep everyone posted, to utilize the information as you see fit. Anecdotal information can be dangerous, especially with the huge number of variables inherant in the endocrine system. I have a long time to go, so hopefully, I will be able to adjust as/if needed and let you know what I am finding.

    Still hate the 24hr Urine GH test though. I feel chained to my house!
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    John,

    Concerning the 24hr Urine GH evaluation. The only lab my LOCAL lab could find was Esoterix, in CA. Do you have a source which you find is more believable? Esoterix only runs Urine GH on the second Tuesday of each month, requiring waits until the results can be obtained, unless gathered according to their timeframe. 100cc of urine from the collection is frozen and shipped to them. I won't have a baseline result until 3rd week of Oct. And will be gathering another only one week later, again with a wait of 3 weeks from gathering time to results.

    Of course, I could simply gather a couple weeks later... but then again, that would require ME to change... and not the world. That is hard to swallow. heh...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadnatron View Post
    John,

    Concerning the 24hr Urine GH evaluation. The only lab my LOCAL lab could find was Esoterix, in CA. Do you have a source which you find is more believable? Esoterix only runs Urine GH on the second Tuesday of each month, requiring waits until the results can be obtained, unless gathered according to their timeframe. 100cc of urine from the collection is frozen and shipped to them. I won't have a baseline result until 3rd week of Oct. And will be gathering another only one week later, again with a wait of 3 weeks from gathering time to results.

    Of course, I could simply gather a couple weeks later... but then again, that would require ME to change... and not the world. That is hard to swallow. heh...
    I'm with ya on that one.

    I exclusively use Rhein Consulting Laboratories. The provide the lone 24 hour GH urine assay which is valid (Belgium).
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    Yes I was taking a supplement that had 50mgs of Zinc and 2 mgs or Copper in it. Doing labs after reading this link.
    http://www.catie.ca/supple-e.nsf/9f2...8!OpenDocument
    My copper levels were low switching to ZMA at bedtime and doing 2 mgs of copper at noon fixed this.

    A cut and paste.
    ============================== ======
    Zinc should be taken at one meal and copper at another because each mineral interferes with the others absorption. Because cysteine is used to make metallthionein, the protein that regulates zinc and copper, many nutritionists recommend supplements of NAC (N-acetylcysteine).
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    People that supplement alot of zinc will also fine there ferritin levels may drop. People supplementing high dosages of iron may deplete zinc. So again a proper balance is essential. I have seen both of these in blood tests and also intracellular testing in clinical setting. I have read several articles on nutrient interactions and these support my own observations
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadnatron View Post
    I am a 41 yo male physician who has noticed a gradual degredation in physical strength, gain in weight, and overall lowering of feelings of wellness.


    I have completed blood work, and per the blood work, I am the EPITOME of perfect health. I am flat middle on almost everything hormonal and LOW on all the bad that medicine typically fights on a daily basis.
    I am 69yo male, 5'9", 160#, active.
    4 years ago had LipoSarcoma removed from my left thigh.
    Size about 32oz
    Benign type as sarcomas go. No radiation, no chemo.
    Looking for a reson why I could (safely) use GH or derivatives.
    My surgeon is strongly agains it (but he is good with scalpel only, right?)
    He is a Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, Manhattan NYC.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------

    Some doctors work on finding optimal values for important analytes.
    Thise two presentation caught my attention.

    PC01e - Detoxification and Intracellular Nutrition in Anti-Aging
    Conference:*A4M Orlando 2009
    Speaker:*Pramod Vora,*
    Date/Time: April 23, 2009 10:00 am - 10:30 am
    Length: 27m 20s - 32 Slides
    http://www.prolibraries.com/a4m/?sel...sessionID=2029 www.space-age.com

    Summary of results in attachment, below;
    --------------------------------------------
    http://www.prolibraries.com/a4m/?sel...sessionID=2070
    PC04b - Energy Deficiency & Mitochondria (Krebs Cycle)
    Conference:*A4M Orlando 2009
    Speaker:*Bill Anton, PhD, BSC(Hons)*
    Date/Time: April 23, 2009 9:00 am - 10:00 am
    Length: 44m 10s - 85 Slides

    Summary of results in attachment, below;
    -------------------------------------------

    My own (JanSz) Goals

    DHEAs(500-640)mcg/dL(13.55-17.34)mol/L------------------major player, 95% time overlooked
    Progesterone(0.9-1.2)ng/mL
    Pregnenolone(> 100ng/dL)
    Estradiol, Ultrasensitive(25-29)pg/mL
    Estrone, LC/MS/MS (23244X)
    do not use Anastrozole if possible or minimize its use
    BATest(342, 460-575)ng/dL------------stay around 342 if you need more than 1.5mg/week Anastrozole to control E2
    DHT(60-90)ng/dL (I am active when it gets over or under this range)
    RT3(0.12-0.32)nmol/L=(7.8-20.8)ng/dL
    TotalT3 in upper 1/3 range (June09 LEF magazine)
    FreeT3~400pg/dL or higher if TotalT3 goal not reached, but not higher than 450
    TotalT4>bottom of range
    FreeT4 rather low, do not know (yet) how low
    Oral temperature (36.25 - 36.80)C = (97.25 - 98.24)F (no sinus or oral infections)
    Ferritin(100-150)
    ###
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I use this script for my yearly checkups.
    (please comment, suggest changes, if you are so inclined)

    1 --------- Comprehensive Metabolic Panel w/EGFR
    2 --------- CBC w/ diff/PLT
    3 --------- VAP TM Cholesterol Test
    4 --------- Iodine
    5 --------- iodide
    6 --------- Selenium
    7 --------- Copper, serum
    8 --------- Zinc
    9 --------- Magnesium
    10 --------- Phosphate
    11 --------- C-Reactive Protein (CRP), Highly Sensitive, CSF
    12 --------- Fibrinogen
    13 --------- Homocysteine, cardio
    14 --------- Lipoprotein (A) Lp(A)
    15 --------- Iron and Iron Binding Capacity
    16 --------- Iron, Total
    17 --------- Ferritin
    18 --------- Transferrin
    19 --------- Folate, RBC & Hematocrit
    20 --------- Hemoglobin A1c
    21 --------- Hemoglobin, Plasma
    22 --------- VITAMIN A, E, B3, B12
    23 --------- Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy
    24 --------- T3, Total
    25 --------- T4, Total
    26 --------- T3, Free
    27 --------- T4,Free
    28 --------- T3, Reverse
    29 --------- Ultrasensitive TSH
    30 --------- Thyroid Peroxidase and Thyroglobulin Antibodies
    31 --------- Insuline, serum
    32 --------- IGF Binding protein-3
    33 --------- IGF-1
    34 --------- DHEA Sulfate
    35 --------- Aldosterone
    36 --------- Renin Activity, Plasma
    37 --------- ACTH, Plasma
    38 --------- Cortisol Binding Globulin (Transcortin)
    39 --------- 8AM/4PM/10PM---Cortisol, Free and Total
    40 --------- Prolactin
    41 --------- Progesterone
    42 --------- Pregnenolone
    43 --------- Androstenedione
    44 --------- Estradiol, sensitive
    45 --------- Estrone
    46 --------- Total Testosterone
    47 --------- SHBG
    48 --------- Albumin
    49 --------- Dihydrotestosterone
    50 --------- 3a-Androstanediol Glucuronide
    51 --------- Ceruloplasmin
    52 --------- Coenzyme Q10
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    244.9 ----- 257.2 ----- 780.79
    250.00 ----- 272.4 ----- 788.41
    250.01 ----- 601.9 ----- 253.3
    255.4 ----- 780.4 ----- 255.8
    783.9 -----
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ...........
    Attached Images Attached Images   
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    HUNGRY HUNGRY HUNGRY


    Man am I ever HUNGRY !!!

    I don't know if it is psychosomatic, from working out harder, time of the month or WHAT... but I have noticed a significant increase in my hunger level over the last few days.

    I began Secretropin on Wed. Night, Night before 10/01 GH pulse. Since Saturday afternoon, I have been hungry and seems to only get worse. I did not have this pressure before Secretropin. I have read that GHRPs can cause hunger for about 2 weeks.

    Anyone ever heard of appetite increase with Secretropin? This is the first of any type of medication/secretogue/analog I have ever used. It seems pretty early to be having this significant of an effect, however, it is here none the less. I broke down with my son, and we ordered pizza last night. That after I had a chicken breast and broccoli for lunch... heh

    Got keep hold of the wagon... even when I get bumped off. I am hoping that my body will adjust soon, or I am going to have to do something to control this better.
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    Mucuna puriens is a known appetite stimulant.

    This is how they list the ingredients: Active Ingredients: Pyroglutamine,L-Glutamine, L-Arginine, L-Lysine, L-Valine,L-Tyrosine Alpha-ketoglutarate, L-Ornithine, L-al****lycerlphosphoryl-choline, Gamma Amino Butyric Acid(GABA), and Mucina pruriens.

    Other Ingredients: Deionized water, Lecithin, Phospholipids, Sodium citrate, Citric acid, Maltodextrin, Potassium sorbate, Artificial color and Flavour.
    .
    Each two(2) sprays delivers 300mg of the proprietary blend of the active ingredients.



    I'm a little put off by the fact they cant spell the ingredients right. If they cant put the proper letters in the right order, how can I trust their compounding abilities? This product is similar to other products that have come and gone. They stimulate dopamine release which stimulates gh release. You need around 200- 500mgs l-dopa to illicit a response, but there are only 300mgs of total ingredients. Insulin-dependents and the obese demonstrate zero to minimal response. This is nothing new. It works for some people.
    Not trying to piss on your party, but I dont understand why there are two Doctors on here pushing a product that is really a polished up version of something that has been around for a while.
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    Who is pushing???
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    I just can't get over the name... Even if it works, going to my doc and asking for a script for secret-tropin is like asking for condoms in front of your mom. You just don't feel right eventhough you're doing the right thing lol
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    2 week checkin

    Urine GH is still pending. It was just ran yesterday... all labs I have found run it only once a month.

    E2 came back 22 (< 29)


    Physically, whether placebo or real, I have noticed that my recovery from workouts has improved rather dramatically in the last few days. I have been working harder and notice less intense and diminished length in my recovery of the worked muscle group. If this keeps up, I will be reinstituting a twice a week workout plan.

    Sleeping pretty soundly, although I have a 16 yo and have had him on my mind a night or two. But overall, maybe a bit better. I get up at 4:30 now to go to the gym, so I am hitting the sack about 9pm each night.

    My hunger is certainly still there, but maybe a little less pronounced. I have bumped calorie intake a bit... mostly because I have an incredible wife who cooks like a 5 star chef, and I can't bring myself to cut out everything. So suppers remain a test, while daytime is easy, although I am sometimes really ready for lunch by the time it arrives.
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    Just received Urine GH results prior to Secretropin.

    Given that this is a 'questionable' test in that Dr. C believes there is only a single source with appropriate/believable results AND that there is questions concerning the efficacy and 'normal' levels to begin with, I recognize the results are not rock solid. However, they are what I have thus far.

    Esoterix lab

    24hr Urine vol: 5350

    GH/Cr: 2.2 ng/g (0.2 - 14.8)

    GH 24hr: 5.3 ng/24hr

    Cr 24hr: 2399 mg/24hr (800 - 2000)
    Cr/Urine: 41 mg/dL


    I am sending the next sample to both Esoterix and Rhein labs for comparison.



    The creatinine level appears high, but I have been maintaining a high protein diet with intense weighlifting. My creatinine clearance is normal. My BUN and Total Cr would seem to be excessive, however, I am obviously NOT dehydrated given the volume and my GFR is normal. The relatively 'elevated' levels are merely associated with diet and intense exercise.

    BUN:23
    Cr:1.3
    Est GFR:107


    John, I know you don't put much stock in any lab other than Rhein. However, can you give any thoughts on the GH level compared to what you have been seeing and treating? I have found a wide range of 'normal' levels.



    .
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    One month labs...

    Somewhat disappointing given that I have diminished Test and Increased Estradiol. I am using 2 pumps AM and 6 pumps PM. I will maintain for one more month and see what happens. Only thing different for the month has been the Secretropin, Multi-Vit, and Zinc.

    Urine GH is pending
    DHT is pending

    Baseline / 1 month

    IGF-1 188 / 202 (91-246)
    IGFBP-3 3.5 / 4.1 (3.3-6.7)
    Test, tot 557 / 495 (250-1100)
    Test, Free 94 / 82.2 (35-155)
    DHT 44 / (P) (25-75)

    Estradiol us 22 / 46 (<29)
    Uring GH, 24H (P)
  35. The horror
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadnatron View Post
    One month labs...

    Somewhat disappointing given that I have diminished Test and Increased Estradiol. I am using 2 pumps AM and 6 pumps PM. I will maintain for one more month and see what happens. Only thing different for the month has been the Secretropin, Multi-Vit, and Zinc.

    Urine GH is pending
    DHT is pending

    Baseline / 1 month

    IGF-1 188 / 202 (91-246)
    IGFBP-3 3.5 / 4.1 (3.3-6.7)
    Test, tot 557 / 495 (250-1100)
    Test, Free 94 / 82.2 (35-155)
    DHT 44 / (P) (25-75)

    Estradiol us 22 / 46 (<29)
    Uring GH, 24H (P)
    I'm not sure why it would have any effect on your sex hormones, although I've read higher levels of testosterone will boost IGF-1. Did you draw the same time of the day? My testosterone levels are higher around 7 to 8 in the morning.

    Your IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 look promising - especially for the first month. Also, the fact that your recovery is enhanced and you feel better should count for something.
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    Just got DHT back...

    Labs were drawn within 1hr of each other. At approximately 8-9am both draws. Both on a non-workout day.

    DHT 44/52 (25-75)

    Yes... my recovery is better, but I am not entirely sure it isn't continued conditioning and placebo. HOWEVER, I am not looking a gift horse in the mouth.

    On Gordon's patients, it seemed that alot of people who weighed over 200 lbs did far less well than those who weighed significantly less. In fact, if you look at his charts... you can see that the ones who weighed the most were the same ones who typically had considerable detrimental effect of the medication ie decreased IGF/Test.

    I agree, it isn't directly related to testosterone, however, it is clear on his data that testosterone typically increased along with IGF-1/IGFBP-3 or decreased on those who did not respond.

    I am giving it another month though. I am hopeful, because there certainly couldn't be an EASIER form hormonal manipulation, than spraying something under your tongue.
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    Is it true if your on Testosterone meds, Cortef HC, Thyroid, Florinef and Iron your IGF-1 lab levels will show higher then they are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Sprinolactone blocks DHT receptors. This was discovered when some patients using it as a potassium-sparing diuretic (it's intended use) developed gynocomastia.

    It seems to work very well for most, especially when mixed into a Rx-strength ketoconozole. Incorporating a liposomal delivery system that speeds it to the hair root enhances performance. Have your friendly compounding pharmacy make some up for you.
    I have been wondering about this shampoo combination. I understand that you, Dr. Crisler, have it made by a compounder for your patients. That's good of you. Cutting edge as usual.

    I was wondering if anyone can recommend how to home brew it? While I appreciate that it may not be the most efficient delivery system, but I was thinking about just grinding up some pills and mixing them with the shampoo, to try out on my rats. Can anyone suggest how many milligrams to mix with a 120 ml bottle of shampoo.

    I would try mixing with Minoxidil, but I understand it makes for a stinky compound.

    Thanks in advance for any help. And sorry if this is viewed as a highjack. I can start another thread if others are interested.
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    2 Months of Secretropin with approximately 90% accuracy/compliance with dosing.

    IGF-1 is up about 30%.

    Testosterone is down approximately 40%. This might be due to support, and will address this over the next couple of months. This is concerning, and unexpected.

    Currently, I have taken Secretropin for 3 months. However, I have not done labs for this month. I am unsure if I will, or wait for another month or two. This will depend on whether I support testosterone differently. I have thus far not decided on a course of action.

    But what I can say is that given the IGF-1/IGFBP-3 levels... the 2 - AM and 4 - PM sprays are working as billed.


    Not all labs were drawn at each 'draw' ie some only on last draw (12/10) others skipped 11/03 draw.

    9/15 (Baseline)... 11/03....................12/10...................



    DHEA-s - 190 ........... - ........... 166 (44 - 345)

    E2 (US) - 22 ........... 46 ........... 26 (<29)

    SHBG - - ............ - ........... 24 (7 - 50)



    IGF-1 - 188 .......... 202 ............ 258 (86 - 220)

    IGFBP-3 - 3.5 .......... 4.1 ........... 4.4 (3.3 - 6.7)




    Test tot - 557 .......... 495 .......... 329 (250-1100)

    Test Free - 94.1 .......... 82.2 .......... 52.3 (35 - 155)

    - bioavail - - .......... - .......... 107.6 (110 - 575)

    DHT - 44 .......... 52 .......... 52 (25 - 75)







    FSH - .......... - .......... 4.9 (1.6 - 8.0)

    LH - .......... - .......... 6.8 (1.5 - 9.3)
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    I am Hypopituitary and for the last 7 yrs my Dr.'s have told me I need HGH I read about the sides and did not want to try it. I have been on TRT over 27 yrs 23 of them I was told I am Primary.

    Well a yr. ago last Nov. I had to have Heart Bypass Sugary and it when bad. I had to be opened up 5 tims and each time they had to leave me open until blood thinners got out of my body.

    I died 5 times 3 of them I came back before they could shock me back.

    My Heart Dr. told me he feels my heart was bad do to the low Growth Hormones I had over the yrs. You can read my story at this link and the heart update.

    http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/vi...php?f=5&t=9239

    I have helped men and women on forums for yrs. men with low T and women with Adreanls and Thyroud problems.

    I started on Humatrope 6mg Pen doing .3 mgs shots per day been on it for 4 weeks now.

    After 3 shots I had to go in for labs on my testosterone levels.

    My IGF-1 before HGH was 130 just doing 3 shots I am up over the top of the range for my age 262 top is 228 my Dr. told me I must be in bad need of this to go up this fast.

    My Thyroid went up to high I needed to lower my Armour meds. And my DHT shot up to 2x's above the top of the range. All the rest of my labs were good like all ways.

    One problem I had was doing the HGH shot at bed time my sugary dropped to low by morning this feels like crap.

    I had to do some thing to fix this even eating before going to be did not help. I had this problem before but after treating my low Adrenals with Cortef this stopped.

    So I now do the shot in the morning this helped a lot and I take 2.5 mgs of corter at bedtime. So now all is great.
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