some of you guys are retarded. its in ng/dl. lol

It doesn't matter what the range says. 750ng/dl is 750ng/dl. Its pretty DAMN high. The mean for a 20year old is 700-900.

When you take cream, its only potent enough to put you in the optimal area. Thats 700-900. Of course, when you first start, you'll feel amazing because of endogenous+exogenous...then when your own battery dies off, your left at the optimized range with the cream, if you are absorbing it.

If you want 1600 levels, you might as well be "on cycle". Go get some testosterone cyp at 250mg/week. There you go. That MIGHT get you to 1600.

1600 is NOT normal high. Its way way way high......have you ever heard of Outliers in statistics? 1600 is an Outlier, just like 250 is an Outlier. Extreme outlier values greatly affect the arithmetic mean. So, if the average* range for male test is 250-1600, calculated from a small sample group of guys, and 2 guys had 1600 and the rest had 600-700, the mean is going to be WAY off. Therefore, you can't say 250 is not normal and say that 1600 is normal....250 is definitely way below what the average SHOULD be, and 1600 is way above what the average should be.

Males today have 30% less testosterone than they had 20 years ago, adjusted for age group. If you take 1600 as the highest back then and take away 30% from it you end up with about 1100 which is top of the range for the other total T test by Labcorp, not the one that runs from 247 to 827.

Lab ranges could be min and max or 25th and 75th percentile or Mth percentile and Nth percentile.

I see you know your statistics well, weren't you a student of my at a large public unviersity that starts with P years ago?

Machinehead, given the range and my levels, what would you suggest might be an optimum number to shoot for? Monsterbox is saying that the best I can hope for with cream is 700-900. I understand it is not linear, but it seems if I went from 2% to 10% cream that I should be able to increase quite a bit from the 419 I am at now. I have certainly noticed a decrease in drive in all areas of my life due to the drop. I would like to increase from my original 750 to maybe 950, on the assumption that it would result in a moderate performance increase at the gym over, say, the next two years.

Originally Posted by Fried Cheese

Machinehead, given the range and my levels, what would you suggest might be an optimum number to shoot for? Monsterbox is saying that the best I can hope for with cream is 700-900. I understand it is not linear, but it seems if I went from 2% to 10% cream that I should be able to increase quite a bit from the 419 I am at now. I have certainly noticed a decrease in drive in all areas of my life due to the drop. I would like to increase from my original 750 to maybe 950, on the assumption that it would result in a moderate performance increase at the gym over, say, the next two years.

first of all, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you had a level of 750 to begin with and some doctor gave you cream? What was your estradiol when you were normal at 750. If you E is high, you could bring it down and you Free T would go up substantially.

Your E might be high on the cream, or you might not be absorbing the cream. My father went on cream and it dropped him significantly below his baseline after 3 months. He felt terrible. Then he switched compounds and felt a little better and his total t went from 400s > 800's. Then he decided to try formex because his E2 was 56. Now he feels rediculously good and I'm betting his free T is way higher.


Seems to me, that if you had T levels of 750, you shouldn't be on TRT for any reason at all. Just do steroid cycles once in a while if you want a boost. And, I've never seen anyone on 200mg/week of cream go above 1000.

That would depend on your SHBG but I think 1000 and above perhaps? I am at 700 with mid-level SHBG but feel like I am castrated. I probably need to double my free test to feel normal although I am "normal" according to the ranges. I'd say go by how you feel and not by the numbers but doctors like to play the numbers game or are often forced to. I'm afraid the gel is not the answer for most.

Originally Posted by machinehead

That would depend on your SHBG but I think 1000 and above perhaps? I am at 700 with mid-level SHBG but feel like I am castrated. I probably need to double my free test to feel normal although I am "normal" according to the ranges. I'd say go by how you feel and not by the numbers but doctors like to play to numbers game or are often forced to. I'm afraid the gel is not the answer for most.

yes, your totally correct with the SHBG deal. I'm at 550, I have a little libido, don't know how?, but my SHBG is 28! I'm only 20.

Generally, if you take an AI it will drop your SHBG substantially...I guess high E causes a high SHBG which in turn causes low-Free T. However, if you have low-E, like me (my E2 is 6!) theres nothing you can do except TRT.

An example:
TT - 800ng/dl
SHBG - 39
Estradiol - 55

^that person would feel like a noodle d*ck. However, if they took some A-dex, dropped the Estradiol down to low 20's, or better yet, Proviron! the SHBG would come way down and the Free T would go WAY up. They would feel like a new person, without TRT.

For blood testing use my list at post #44, between blue lines.
Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

That list is meant for Quest Diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest.
For specifications look at my post #137 (Engine specs)
also post #26 here:
----------http://muscle chatroom.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2

(if someone tells me how to post tables here I will transfer data to this board)

If it is not possible to go to Quest,
PM me for modified list.

To figure adequacy of testosterone dose:

#1-dose (T & HCG) ED or EOD(EveryOtherDay)
#2-get TotalTest, SHBG and Albumin
#3-get this chart:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Rab...ruthers&pg=PR2

you want FreeT(250-300) on that chart.

.
.

Originally Posted by monsterbox

yes, your totally correct with the SHBG deal. I'm at 550, I have a little libido, don't know how?, but my SHBG is 28! I'm only 20.

Generally, if you take an AI it will drop your SHBG substantially...I guess high E causes a high SHBG which in turn causes low-Free T. However, if you have low-E, like me (my E2 is 6!) theres nothing you can do except TRT.

An example:
TT - 800ng/dl
SHBG - 39
Estradiol - 55

^that person would feel like a noodle d*ck. However, if they took some A-dex, dropped the Estradiol down to low 20's, or better yet, Proviron! the SHBG would come way down and the Free T would go WAY up. They would feel like a new person, without TRT.

This method works, but its a stop gap because there is a reason why it is low which could be thyroid/adrenal related or excessive body fat or excessive soy, altered estrogen metaoblism issues. These need to be explored first.