I'm on clomiphene for 10 weeks

[monsterbox]

I'm on doctor ordered clomiphene citrate for 10 weeks at 25mg/day for 8 weeks then 12.5 for last 2 weeks. I have low LH/FSH, Low Sperm Count, Total T in low 300's, Low Free T, Low Estradial (12), and a grade 3 varicocele.


Anyhow, I've been on clomiphene for 5 weeks now. I feel alot different. My sex drive is much higher, mood is improved somewhat, and I'm getting alot stronger in the gym. However, I've noticed I feel alot more bloated, lost my definition alot. Also, right after taking the pill, my skin becomes really sensative and breaks out in hives/itches really bad...feels like blood is rushing to the surface of my skin like when you strain doing squats. Its really weird, but I know its related to clomid because this side has been consistent.

Anyone know what causes this? Its not really bothering me, but I just want to know what mechanism is causing me to break out. I'm also assuming the fat gain/water weight is from increased estrogen related to the active estrogen of zooclomid.

 

[Future]

I know you can break out from using clomid. Also depression is normal as well. Most likely you are just normalizing from potentially coming off a cycle I would assume. That would explain smoothing out etc.

 

[The Matrix]

I'm on doctor ordered clomiphene citrate for 10 weeks at 25mg/day for 8 weeks then 12.5 for last 2 weeks. I have low LH/FSH, Low Sperm Count, Total T in low 300's, Low Free T, Low Estradial (12), and a grade 3 varicocele.


Anyhow, I've been on clomiphene for 5 weeks now. I feel alot different. My sex drive is much higher, mood is improved somewhat, and I'm getting alot stronger in the gym. However, I've noticed I feel alot more bloated, lost my definition alot. Also, right after taking the pill, my skin becomes really sensative and breaks out in hives/itches really bad...feels like blood is rushing to the surface of my skin like when you strain doing squats. Its really weird, but I know its related to clomid because this side has been consistent.

Anyone know what causes this? Its not really bothering me, but I just want to know what mechanism is causing me to break out. I'm also assuming the fat gain/water weight is from increased estrogen related to the active estrogen of zooclomid.

The proper dosage for restart is 25-50 mgs every 1-3 days then retest after 3 weeks then adjust up or down then discontinue 3-4 weeks later and retest.. Your e2 is going up but this is the price one pays as T goes up and clomid is a serm it self so it can act as an estrogen at the receptor

 

[monsterbox]

The proper dosage for restart is 50 mgs every 3 days then retest after 3 weeks then adjust up or down then cold turkey stop then retest 3-4 weeks later. Your e2 is going up but this is the price one pays as T goes up and clomid is a serm it self so it can act as an estrogen

Is the e2 related to the itching....I doubt it. Anyhow, this is Dr. J protocol, he believes it ideal to run 25mg for 3 times as long rather than 50mg which has more side effects.


I haven't "come off a cycle". My last cycle was in december which was hardly a cycle....I took superdrol for a week and absolutely lost my mind and liver. 600 ALT! I'm just a bad reactor to everything good god.

Anyhow, my lower end T is more than likely unrelated to PH usage.

So as far as raised E2, could I take an AI to counteract the affects? Is my E2 increasing because of the artificial estrogen or from the aromatization of the newly stimulated testosterone secretion? I have a bunch of I-Force Reversitol...what about throwing in 1 pill/day to cut some water.

 

[The Matrix]

Is the e2 related to the itching....I doubt it. Anyhow, this is Dr. Crisler's protocol, he believes it ideal to run 25mg for 3 times as long rather than 50mg which has more side effects.


I haven't "come off a cycle". My last cycle was in december which was hardly a cycle....I took superdrol for a week and absolutely lost my mind and liver. 600 ALT! I'm just a bad reactor to everything good god.

Anyhow, my lower end T is more than likely unrelated to PH usage.

So as far as raised E2, could I take an AI to counteract the affects? Is my E2 increasing because of the artificial estrogen or from the aromatization of the newly stimulated testosterone secretion? I have a bunch of I-Force Reversitol...what about throwing in 1 pill/day to cut some water.

Number one I would edit your post - you know what a mean
I am suggesting that 25-50 mgs is the usual amount to start on clomid then adjust up or down after 2-3 weeks (every one is different) We always test people at week 2-3 and run them for 8-10 weeks then cold turkey for 3-4 weeks then retest. If they hold great if not hcg is the next step. While doing this we also back fill with proper nutrients and building blocks for hormones in the correct ratio adjusting lifestyles, nutrition to increase the success rate. We also adjust thyroid and adrenals in the mean time to give full testosterone production support. Resv could make estrogen symptoms worse and IMO I would not risk the chances of contaminaing the results which Dr J is trying to achieve. From personal experience when people start throwing herbs and supplements into the mix that could effect out come of the desired results a dr would be PISSED. AI and clomid DO NOT MIX you have to ride it out and deal with the estrogen issues because clomid is an estrogen. If you have any complications these need to be reported to your DR IMMEDIATELY.

 

[monsterbox]

Number one I would edit your post - you know what a mean
I am suggesting that 25-50 mgs is the usual amount to start on clomid then adjust up or down after 2-3 weeks (every one is different) We always test people at week 2-3 and run them for 8-10 weeks then cold turkey for 3-4 weeks then retest. If they hold great if not hcg is the next step. While doing this we also back fill with proper nutrients and building blocks for hormones in the correct ratio adjusting lifestyles, nutrition to increase the success rate. We also adjust thyroid and adrenals in the mean time to give full testosterone production support. Resv could make estrogen symptoms worse and IMO I would not risk the chances of contaminaing the results which Dr J is trying to achieve. From personal experience when people start throwing herbs and supplements into the mix that could effect out come of the desired results a dr would be PISSED. AI and clomid DO NOT MIX you have to ride it out and deal with the estrogen issues because clomid is an estrogen. If you have any complications these need to be reported to your DR IMMEDIATELY.

Its really not the estrogen bloat thats bothering me so I guess forgot the AI...I was talking about REVERSITOL not Resveratrol....listen to this..

Last night I was doing some hanging situps and I had alot of blood rush to my head. I have head rushes alot lol, I also play lead trumpet professionally as a part time job which requires alot of blood rushing to your head. Anyhow, I finished a long set and when I stood upright, my face was red from blood...but EXTREMELY itchy. Then my lips swelled up like crazy and my WHOLE FACE became swollen. I looked like some kind of primate for a good 15mins...after an hour my face looked completely normal. WTF...how is it that clomid does this....When I do a set on bench and force blood into my pecs...my pecs get red and itchy. Its just strange. Should I try benedryl or advil?

 

[xtraflossy]

No doctor here; ...but just throwing something out there for ya.

You may have elevated blood pressure from the increased water weight.
It your blood pressure is already high, then that may explain some of the occurrences your experiencing.

I get this way if I take creatine.

The way I keep it manageable, is a good 15 min in the sauna after working out. It helps take the water out, and calms my blood preasure for a good noticeable while.

 

[monsterbox]

No doctor here; ...but just throwing something out there for ya.

You may have elevated blood pressure from the increased water weight.
It your blood pressure is already high, then that may explain some of the occurrences your experiencing.

I get this way if I take creatine.

The way I keep it manageable, is a good 15 min in the sauna after working out. It helps take the water out, and calms my blood preasure for a good noticeable while.

my bp is consistently 130/70 on creatine and now. Without creatine 120/65

 

[The Matrix]

my bp is consistently 130/70 on creatine and now. Without creatine 120/65

You may be wanting to contact your medical professional.
Have you been eating different kinds of foods at all?

Your welcome for me saving your ass as well :wave2:

 

[monsterbox]

You may be wanting to contact your medical professional.
Have you been eating different kinds of foods at all?

Your welcome for me saving your ass as well :wave2:

thanks matrix!

 

[thegodfather]

Sounds like some kind of Histamine reaction, after all it is interconnected with your other hormones. Maybe take a good anti-histamine or some L-methionine for a while and see if it helps.

 

[monsterbox]

Sounds like some kind of Histamine reaction, after all it is interconnected with your other hormones. Maybe take a good anti-histamine or some L-methionine for a while and see if it helps.

benadryl makes it go away. I thought it was the anti-inflammatory/lowering BP effect of benadryl that helped, not the anti-histamine. But I guess you are right....weird.

 

[The Matrix]

benadryl makes it go away. I thought it was the anti-inflammatory/lowering BP effect of benadryl that helped, not the anti-histamine. But I guess you are right....weird.

Sounds to me like you are getting over stimulation from the estrogen receptors which no AI will take care off. This will cause estrogen sensitivity which can cause an elevated histamine response similar to what high e2 can give man people. I break out in hives under my arms when e2 goes to high.

 

[monsterbox]

Sounds to me like you are getting over stimulation from the estrogen receptors which no AI will take care off. This will cause estrogen sensitivity which can cause an elevated histamine response similar to what high e2 can give man people. I break out in hives under my arms when e2 goes to high.

hmm...never knew that elevated E2 can cause histamine reponse...I wonder if my E2 is like way higher than it should be on this dosage of clomid, or if I just have a histamine response to any raise in E2. Pre-clomid, my E2 was 12. I'm guessing an AI won't help because its not the aromatase thats causing the high E2, its the actual competion for receptors of the actual clomiphene itself.

If indeed my E2 is really high on this stuff, should I do anything as far as coming off of clomid? The plan was 12.5 for last two weeks.

 

[The Matrix]

hmm...never knew that elevated E2 can cause histamine reponse...I wonder if my E2 is like way higher than it should be on this dosage of clomid, or if I just have a histamine response to any raise in E2. Pre-clomid, my E2 was 12. I'm guessing an AI won't help because its not the aromatase thats causing the high E2, its the actual competion for receptors of the actual clomiphene itself.

If indeed my E2 is really high on this stuff, should I do anything as far as coming off of clomid? The plan was 12.5 for last two weeks.

I am extremely familar with your medical professional and my suggestion is to contact him and let him know about these side effects so modifications can be made by HIM. Do not try to second guess his experience.

 

[monsterbox]

I am extremely familar with your medical professional and my suggestion is to contact him and let him know about these side effects so modifications can be made by HIM. Do not try to second guess his experience.

I already did...he said hes never heard of this happening with clomid out of all of his patients. We ran a liver panel test and my ALT/AST/Bilirubin etc was fine. Only thing that showed up flagged was slightly low RBC. He told me to try taking benadryl when it bothers me. I'm really not freaking out about this, I'm just curious. I haven't called back yet.

 

[1HP]

Resv could make estrogen symptoms worse

Could you explain how Resv does that? Thanks a lot!

I was talking about REVERSITOL not Resveratrol....

Reversitol contains resveratrol.

S.E.R.M. Matrix 500 mg **
Trans-Resveratrol
Eurycoma Longifolia

 

[1HP]

Could you explain how Resv does that? Thanks a lot!

Bump for matrix, would really like to know. Cant really find anything on that.

 

[1HP]

Bump for matrix, would really like to know. Cant really find anything on that.

Found this:

In estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer cells, resveratrol acted as an estrogen agonist in the absence of the endogenous estrogen, 17beta-estradiol, but acted as an estrogen antagonist in the presence of 17beta-estradiol (20, 21). At present, it appears that resveratrol has the potential to act as an estrogen agonist or antagonist depending on such factors as cell type, estrogen receptor isoform (ER alpha or ER beta), and the presence of endogenous estrogens (17).

So how does that translate to resveratrol having negative effects on gyno caused by excessive estrogen?

Even when estrogen levels are halved under influence of "normal" AI administration resveratrol should have a positive influence on gyno?

When taking a strong AI like letrozole resulting in almost complete blocking of estrogen, say for 95% I can understand resveratrol having a negative effect then.

Do I get this right?

 

[monsterbox]

Just finished the 10 week cycle. Took my last 12.5mg pill last night.

Over the 10 weeks I discovered:
- Immediately after taking clomid I get a histamine response and warm. Wears off after 4-5hours. Benedryl helps tremendously. I began dosing it at night. No side effects if dosed at night.

-sleep was extremely improved. Dreams were very intense/easy to remember. Felt energized on little sleep. I would literally wake up at 4 in the morning and wonder how I've only been asleep for 5 hours (felt like 8).

-sex drive was improved significantly.

-mood did not improve that much...in fact I felt anxious more often/depressed once in a while.

-Gained a good amount of muscle and strength...probably 5 solid pounds. However I did not loose any body fat and felt quite puffy the entire cycle.


Waiting on blood test results now from the last day blood test draw.

 

[The Matrix]

Just finished the 10 week cycle. Took my last 12.5mg pill last night.

Over the 10 weeks I discovered:
- Immediately after taking clomid I get a histamine response and warm. Wears off after 4-5hours. Benedryl helps tremendously. I began dosing it at night. No side effects if dosed at night.

-sleep was extremely improved. Dreams were very intense/easy to remember. Felt energized on little sleep. I would literally wake up at 4 in the morning and wonder how I've only been asleep for 5 hours (felt like 8).

-sex drive was improved significantly.

-mood did not improve that much...in fact I felt anxious more often/depressed once in a while.

-Gained a good amount of muscle and strength...probably 5 solid pounds. However I did not loose any body fat and felt quite puffy the entire cycle.


Waiting on blood test results now from the last day blood test draw.

You can use sam-e for histamines as it main source of how it is detoxifed in the body. I would also look at serum copper levels as high histamines will cause decreases adrenaline making you feel like crap. Glad you got good results. The Dr does know what he is doing thats for sure since it is a walk in the park for him. I would have done probably the same thing as well as back filling it with proper building blocks in the proper ratio. One person T went from 200 to 600 when given the bullding blocks with proper ratio no TRT was needed plus he was on TRT for 2 years prior came off and 2 months started nutrient testing and now hes back to 110% bigger stronger and leaner then before. He made a 180 both in mental and physical well being. He was also to the same DR and was given T just felt it was not right for his body. He even tried a restart and no luck thats because the nutrients where not there in the first place. keep us informed of progress as Blood test should be conducter 3-4 weeks after stopping.

 

[monsterbox]

Got my results back for the last week on clomid at 12.5mg/day.

Total T = 546 and is flagged higher because the range is marked 2-45ng/dl....however I'm 99.9% sure the range should be 241-827ng/dl.

I"m retesting at the end of this month which will be 4 weeks later....I'm assuming the T is going to drop back right to where I normally sit at 300's. At this point, fixing the varicocele is probably completely pointless....I'm probably going to need TRT anyways.

 

[valheruking]

I used Clomid 50mg for 6 weeks and saw moderate results in mood and libido areas. Never encountered any side effects that others report such as blurry vision or emotional issues. However I would like to point out that once I stopped the treatment my symptoms returned (low energy, low libido, little depression etc) so I have ordered another 2 month supply @ 50mg a day.

going to start it after my bottle of DTH runs out. I'm also waiting on a referral for a Urologist for signs of low T and varicocele on the left side and maybe a very small one on the right side.

 

[charliebizz]

Got my results back for the last week on clomid at 12.5mg/day.

Total T = 546 and is flagged higher because the range is marked 2-45ng/dl....however I'm 99.9% sure the range should be 241-827ng/dl.

I"m retesting at the end of this month which will be 4 weeks later....I'm assuming the T is going to drop back right to where I normally sit at 300's. At this point, fixing the varicocele is probably completely pointless....I'm probably going to need TRT anyways.

bump did you ever retest

 

[monsterbox]

bump did you ever retest

waiting for the doctor to order the blood work, its supposed to be ordered this thursday. Im really starting to get sick of waiting for treatment! Almost here.

 

[Intellectual]

waiting for the doctor to order the blood work, its supposed to be ordered this thursday. Im really starting to get sick of waiting for treatment! Almost here.

Hey is that you in the pic? You look like that with low T?

 

[The Matrix]

Hey is that you in the pic? You look like that with low T?

IF after 10 weeks there is not resolution then goto HCG 500 ius every 3rd day retest on day before the injection to get a mid line 2 weeks later then increase dosage accordingly to 750 ius. Then retest again 2 weeks. Each time you restest just T and estrodial is needed. shbg and Estrodial is not tested on clomid

 

[Da OG Hulk]

quick question.. sorry i am doing this on here i jsut cant figure it out.. but how do i post a new thread?

 

[monsterbox]

IF after 10 weeks there is not resolution then goto HCG 500 ius every 3rd day retest on day before the injection to get a mid line 2 weeks later then increase dosage accordingly to 750 ius. Then retest again 2 weeks. Each time you restest just T and estrodial is needed. shbg and Estrodial is not tested on clomid

well, its up to the doc. Hes the one that orders the drugs and blood tests. Thanks for the advice Ill bring it up with him. I don't see the point in HCG monotherapy and tons of aromatase...its going to cause pituitary shutdown long term, so why not use TRT + HCG.

 

[ohiostate2827]

i did clomid and nolvadex together and i had nothing but postive things for me..my total test was 199 went up to 720 after 32days

 

[lonewolf0420]

Number one I would edit your post - you know what a mean

I just got that, lol. That's a good suggestion.

 

[monsterbox]

Got blood test results, these are now 3 weeks after my last dosage of clomid

8:00am

Total T - 575
SHBG - 28
Estradiol - 6 <<<<<no wonder my joints always ache
Free T- I forgot, but it wasn't too spactacular

Anyhow, Dr. J said that I am at the bottom quartile of the range, and its especially low for my age. Estradiol is extremely low. He's only seen people with E2 that low 4 times in his entire practice. He stated that if I was 45yrs old he'd put me on T immediately, no questions asked. However, he wants to wait and see if I feel any different in the next two weeks, possibly from a new testosterone rebound. In the meantime he told me to take 50mg/day of DHEA to increase estrogen, wtf.


So, is it worth going on TRT?

--- I'm in the best shape I could possibly be in...I'm extremely active, get plenty of sleep, eat plenty of dietary fats, eat plenty of healthy food, balanced/well planned diet. Therefore, my T levels are at the maximum that they will ever reach...its not like I could try working out and cutting some BF to boost my energy/testosterone.

My E2 is very low....I bet its because my body doesn't produce enough T and my pathways are setup great for the high-T levels thats its supposed to receive, therefore I'm not getting estrogen from my testosterone total.

 

[monsterbox]

So doc prescribed me 5g of T cream. I asked him for injections, and he said for my age, the constant level of injections is not good for development?????? He said I need the flucuations from the short half-life of the cream. I'm "trying" it for a month and checking back with him in 3 weeks.

Seems to me like 5g of T cream isn't going to do jack sh*t. Thats 50mg strength. My father is on 200mg and had T levels of 400 before he started.

I can already see that Ill have a raise in total T for a week, then it will prob cancel out and fall back to where it is now or lower considering the dosage is so low and my endogeneous will shut down. Not to mention, cream doesn't work well anyways.

 

[Imeniaan]

get some pharme grade toremifene bro, original fareston and no research garbage. run that for 8 weeks and you''ll be good.

 

[monsterbox]

get some pharme grade toremifene bro, original fareston and no research garbage. run that for 8 weeks and you''ll be good.

what? are you kidding me? you must be. I just took clomid for 10 weeks...it blows torem out of the water. I'v taken torem before.

 

[Imeniaan]

what? are you kidding me? you must be. I just took clomid for 10 weeks...it blows torem out of the water. I'v taken torem before.

yes i know, i read your log, but you weren't taking original fareston, hence the not so positive results.

 

[monsterbox]

look man, I don't know where you are learning these things from. Not to be offensive, but clomid is just as effective, if not much more effective at pituitary stimulation than toremifene citrate (genuine fareston). Fareston is similiar to Nolvadex except with chlorination of the ethyl side chain. Its intention was breast cancer protection without long term sides of nolvadex. Toremifene Citrate also exhibits Aromatase Inhibition type properties. With an E2 in the single digits, toremifene is the last thing I need. Torem/Nolva are similiar in that they block breast tissue effectively, while torem seems to outperform with hpta restoration....altough most of this is Anectdotal. However, Clomiphene Citrate was designed specifically as a fertility drug to stimulate FSH and LH production, not with the intention of blocking breast tissue. Its been proven throughout vast number of medical journals to restore HPTA effectively....its known to be so strong that infact it causes desensitation of the leydig cells from the increase in LH with long term use.

I'm not experiencing a recovery problem from prohormone usage in january. My levels have remained low, and I feel completely "normal" compared to what I've felt like the past 4 years of my life.

I strongly believe that 10 weeks of clomid is certainly MORE than enough pituitary stimulation, and will surely rev the pituitary to its max. Toremifene, nolvadex, raloxifene, or even clomid again isn't going to make one difference. All of them work and will do the job with extended amount of time.

 

[The Matrix]

look man, I don't know where you are learning these things from. Not to be offensive, but clomid is just as effective, if not much more effective at pituitary stimulation than toremifene citrate (genuine fareston). Fareston is similiar to Nolvadex except with chlorination of the ethyl side chain. Its intention was breast cancer protection without long term sides of nolvadex. Toremifene Citrate also exhibits Aromatase Inhibition type properties. With an E2 in the single digits, toremifene is the last thing I need. Torem/Nolva are similiar in that they block breast tissue effectively, while torem seems to outperform with hpta restoration....altough most of this is Anectdotal. However, Clomiphene Citrate was designed specifically as a fertility drug to stimulate FSH and LH production, not with the intention of blocking breast tissue. Its been proven throughout vast number of medical journals to restore HPTA effectively....its known to be so strong that infact it causes desensitation of the leydig cells from the increase in LH with long term use.

As i mentioned before there are other factors in play here need to check your other hormones. If you came to me with these levels I WOULD not put
I'm not experiencing a recovery problem from prohormone usage in january. My levels have remained low, and I feel completely "normal" compared to what I've felt like the past 4 years of my life.

I strongly believe that 10 weeks of clomid is certainly MORE than enough pituitary stimulation, and will surely rev the pituitary to its max. Toremifene, nolvadex, raloxifene, or even clomid again isn't going to make one difference. All of them work and will do the job with extended amount of time.

I look into other factors which could be the caustive reseason why e2 was low such as low DHEA from adrenal fatigue.

 

[Gutterpump]

I look into other factors which could be the caustive reseason why e2 was low such as low DHEA from adrenal fatigue.

Yep, this is true.
I know I wish I had fixed a few things before jumping on the T bandwagon myself.


Also, about stimulating your production... Have you suggested trying hCG mono before jumping onto T-therapy? If clomid worked but not well enough, hCG will work better and could be enough. Many people who are successful with hCG monotherapy say they feel much better than they did on T therapy. hCG + cream/gel is definitely a good route though if you need therapy.

 

[monsterbox]

well, I've considered all of these things you guys speak of...however, its all up to the doctor. He's on the fence about any sort of treatment with me because of my age and fertility, so he wants to go based how hes treated most patients my age. Its all in the doctors hands. Sure, Id want to look into adrenal fatigue, low dhea, hcg monotherapy or whatever else there is...I just wish I could prescribe drugs and order blood tests on my own. I just have to let the doc do what he wants to do unfortunately...I've made these suggestions about hcg etc.

 

[BB12]

so, what would you guys think about.... if you ran clomid 25mg EOD along with a natty test booster? Say... 30 days

Just to get those levels back up.....?